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Is The Player Base Really This Split?
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idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@Ch4mpTW
Best story I have read in the forums in a long time.
I have done some of the vet dungeons without a tank or healer, vICP would not be one, especially without a healer. Even with the nerfs to it I still would not go into vICP or vCoA 2 with 4 DDs, even top DDs on the server.
Considering they have not cleared it says a lot. Once they get actual experience in it they may understand, but to each their own.2 -
Ch4mpTW✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Kyle1983b14_ESO wrote: »DigitalShibby wrote: »
So he basically claims he can solo anything in game without one healing skill?
I didn't claim that, and nor did the other person who was apart of the exchange of dialogue. However, they did in fact claim that the need for healers and tanks weren't there anymore. As supposedly all damage dealers can get any form of content done, and get it done much more time-efficiently.0 -
Metafae✭✭✭✭✭When I started this game I was a total noob. I was trying to be a tank, but I didn't even know what a taunt was. I also followed one of Deltia's earlier builds where he showcased a DK tank using a resto staff on the back bar for support. Lets just say it didn't help me much early on. Thankfully I joined a guild shortly afterwards, and the people in that guild taught me the basics of how to play the game, and I very quickly got better. Today I have 12 max level characters, and I have completed most of the content in the game, currently the only content I still need to complete are the hard modes of the vet trials.
I would run pledges often with the other players in my guild that are really great players. We would usually run with a Tank and a Healer, because we know that the dungeon is completed faster with 2 great DPS that are being fully supported an excellent tank and healer.
There are very few dungeons that we would run with only DPS, and even when we did one of us would be running some kind of heal to be that support should the situation call for it, its actually better to run with a full healer and 3 dps as that support takes the strain off the dps and helps.
The dungeons that allow for these kinds of groups are the ones where the bosses can be managed by just dodging their hard hitting attacks and very little other mechanics involved. Even in these cases, having a tank is better as you can get crowd control on the trash that speeds the dungeon up as a whole.
I think the bigger issue in this game is people seem to think that a Tank only taunts, a Healer only heals, and DPS only does damage. This is just not true.
Tanks provide crown control, they debuff, they control bosses to allow the dps to have an easier time doing damage. Often they supply warhorns that increase dps too. Dungeons go so smoothly when you have an amazing tank.
Healers aid their dps with buffs, they help their tank and dps sustain in longer fights. If healers weren't about helping their dps do more damage, then why would Spell Power Cure be a must have set?
DPS protect their healers, they let their tanks lead. Most importantly, they avoid standing in red. DPS need to have great situational awareness while maintaining a good rotation. They are also the ones who should be rezzing fallen players.
These roles when understood properly, make for a great group that will do very well in any content. When people run in groups with players that ignore these extra jobs, you'll understand why they think they can do without them in the majority of the content.niawrathb16_ESO wrote: »I am sorry this confused me ...Just had another moment of some BS occurring not too long after writing this. Was informed how a MagDK DPS isn't supposed to use a restoration staff on their backbar, and how it automatically equates to horrible overall group DPS. This time from a guild member. WTF? Keep in mind that I did this, due to healers not keeping Elemental Drain up as they should. As well as MagDK's having issues with sustain. So now it's either double Destro/Destro or you're auto-noob and completely wrong in your setup. What?
You have a restoration staff set to your back bar to support yourself based on your experiences and needs for your build understandable and good that you did something positive to make it work in group then you did a 180 and said that healers should have elemental drain up...why is it ok for you to decide what abilities a player should have and get upset when someone tells you what weapons you should use?
Hm? You're mistaken. I slotted the restoration staff, after I noticed that there was no Elemental Drains being applied. And after multiple people complained about their resource issues (myself included). What made it right per say what I did? It made it right as a healer has FAR MORE on the line than a DPS. A tank and a healer are the stars of any group content. Trial or dungeon. More so the healer, because they make sure you stay in peak performance. If your healer dies, then things tend to get sloppy. Unless you can somehow pull off a recovery in an organized and timely fashion. Make sense?
So in knowing that as a healer what your job is, and how crucial you are to the group — you should know that something as critical as Elemental Drain should be active at all times. Right or wrong? Therefore adjustments like what I did would never even have to take place, let alone be up for a topic of debate.
But even then, where did it become bad per say for a DPS to run Destro/Resto if magicka-oriented? WHY is it mandatory to run Destro/Destro or DW/Destro, considering the amount of strain it puts on resources? It goes back to another topic and thread of how people have rings twisted in believing that as a DPS, you shouldn't use a restoration staff (if magicka-based).
Why do you need Resto for Elemental Drain, it's a Destro skill? You talking about Siphon Spirit?
I didn't use the resto for Elemental Drain. Lol. I used the resto, because of the amount of magicka I get back with heavy attacks from it and also the passive ability from it being a precise Maelstrom's Restoration Staff (Regeneration restores 481 Magicka to you when it critically heals a target. Can occur once every 4 seconds. Adds 688 Spell Critical).
Running Destro/Resto is easier on resources as a magicka DPS, than Destro/Destro, or DW/Destro. Even more so if Elemental Drain (a Destruction Staff skill) is applied in targets.
Sounds rather selfish. You could simply use Ele Drain in the slot you put Regen and did something for whole team. Who you said were all having sustain ussues. Without SPC which I wager you didn't swap to, Regen does little in the scheme of things for anyone but you. Using pots, even the cheap-o looted ones, Ele Drain and weaving in HA into your rotation would have done a better job.
If you wonder why people don't like Destro/Resto on Magicka DPS it's because they know the run-around nature of it. Time spent on Resto HA is a noticeable DPS lost, as is weaving with Resto. So while you might gain sustain, you've traded DPS for it which results in longer fights, and that creates more sustain issues.
... It's rather selfish of me? It's not my job to apply Elemental Drain. It's the healer's job. It would be my job if I were solo'ing, but was I solo'ing? No.
M8, when I'm on my mDK and the healer says they haven't even morphed that skill (Yes, it happens a lot with pugs) I'll make sure to slot it myself on the back bar. Yes, I expect a healer to be able to run it for me, but when dealing with pugs you have to be realistic about this. Using a resto just doesn't make any sense. You've got some nerve to complain about ignorant people not willing to learn to play right and then do exactly what your complaining about in the same thread.12 -
Turelus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭This reminds me why I hate PUGs and why I hate "elite" guilds at the same time.
I remember when I was just doing casual golds before as leader of a PvP guild and had a rookie member in the guild (who came from PvE background) actually say on TS3 some comment about how I was crap at the game because we didn't kill a boss before it repeated it mechanic as my DPS was too low.
There is so much ego in some parts of this community it really does harm it for those who just want to run the content with the good old group comps and have a laugh.
If you're looking to blitz content and epeen, then find guilds of others to do that with and take a step back and relax when it comes to casual players who just want to play.
Any way I am rambling now so I will shut up.
@Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
"Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."10 -
alexkdd99✭✭✭✭✭
✭
No, if they got it from the forums they wouldn't be using double bows. Anyone who has looked for information would see that under no circumstance you should have bow on both bar.
Now as far as them saying no priest / tank are needed, well they may have found that here or anywhere.
I think people get confused about the difficulty of different dungeons. Just because one doesn't need a tank or priest in fungal grotto, doesn't mean you don't need one or the other in any other vet dungeon.
If those people had gotten there information from the forum I doubt they would of believed that very few people had completed vet coa2.
So in total, no they most likely didn't learn this from the forums. More likely they never attempted to research anything about the game and heard this from some random noob from the group finder.0 -
akl77✭✭✭✭✭
✭Play with them and watch them die like fly again and again.
Or maybe they're all flawless conquer that self heals.Pc na0 -
Trinity_Is_My_Name✭✭✭✭✭
✭Doctordarkspawn wrote: »When I tried to force myself to play DPS I got told repeatedly when trying to find support rolls that I didn't need them, to the point of people going out of their way to prevent me to group with tanks, insult me, and rally Zone against me because 'tanks aren't needed'
Hah, yeah Tanks are DEFINITELY needed, they're the ones that make the Dungeons go so much more smoothly, when they're actually drawing Aggro that is. Tanks and Healers both are necessary. Healer keeps the Tank alive, Tank keeps the Boss busy, which leaves the DPS free and dandy to wail on the Boss without worry.
If I knew how to build and play a Tank effectively I'd become one for Undaunted runs. The Game needs a lot more of them in the Finder so the DPS don't have to wait so long for groups.
The best Tank/Healer build I have run across is a hybrid Tank/Healer. Runs about 29K Health buffed and works very well in all game content except Trials. When we run the Pledges we try to take our Tank/Healer so we can have the other 3 DPS toons knock everything out quickly.0 -
Drdeath20✭✭✭✭✭
✭As a healer when i get into a group with competent people I never have to use my heals. We just burn through everything. As a group burning down bosses with 4million health in a few minutes.0 -
Ch4mpTW✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Trinity_Is_My_Name wrote: »
Likewise. I've done it with my MagSorc and my MagPlar. But, my Sorc's Twilight was healing when needed and my MagPlar BoL'd anytime it was needed. Plus, everyone was 561 as well with BIS gear on. As well as new their rotations inside and out. But, that wasn't the case in this particular scenario. Lol.
And as for anyone who is curious about my comment about healers not running Elemental Drain in a trial, I've never seen it before today. I honestly haven't. So excuse my ignorance and extreme irritation about it, especially when it occurred from people I'm in a guild with. It was unexpected, and caused tons of problems. I left early on after that fiasco, and from what was told to me, the other max CP people left as well. As the group was found to be incompetent, and filled with people from other guilds (there were only 3 of us from my particular guild).0 -
anitajoneb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭WTF? Why? Just... Why? Where are these players coming from that think like this? I don't understand. I really don't.
Simple. They hear it, believe it, repeat it, apply it. And when they fail, they accuse each other, instead of reconsidering this "truth".
Imho they're not as much to blame. The real problem are people claiming their vision as the only true and valid one.
Lately in some guild's chat :
- guildie 1 : LF1M tank for vCOA2
- guildie 2 : LOL you don't need a tank in vCOA2 !!
- me : they're looking for a tank... can't they try and find one without being told what to do or not to do ?
That's one example of the multiple ways those visions spread.As a healer when i get into a group with competent people I never have to use my heals. We just burn through everything. As a group burning down bosses with 4million health in a few minutes.
It's true that ALL 4-men content in the game can be done with 4 DD's, without tank and healer. But not everyone can do it.
Edited by anitajoneb17_ESO on January 29, 2017 12:58AM5 -
Bandit1215✭✭✭This is why I don't pug dungeons and have started kicking sub cp 300 players, and dd's who use 2h or bows as their primary dps weapon. These completely ignorant casuals who think they can "play how they want" through vet dungeons and the harder, end game content are insanely infuriating, especially when they refuse to take actual advice. If you want to spam wrecking blow or light attacking mobs to death while questing, go right ahead, but don't whine if you get kicked when you try and do difficult content with setups or playstyles that will neverror clear it.Edited by Bandit1215 on January 29, 2017 1:12AMCP 561- vSO HM - Completed
- vAA - Completed
- vHRC - Completed
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MasterSpatula✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »The real problem are people claiming their vision as the only true and valid one.
Lately in some guild's chat :
- guildie 1 : LF1M tank for vCOA2
- guildie 2 : LOL you don't need a tank in vCOA2 !!
- me : they're looking for a tank... can't they try and find one without being told what to do or not to do ?
That's one example of the multiple ways those visions spread.
I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who's bugged by crap like that.
"A probable impossibility is preferable to an improbable possibility." - Aristotle3 -
Ch4mpTW✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »WTF? Why? Just... Why? Where are these players coming from that think like this? I don't understand. I really don't.
Simple. They hear it, believe it, repeat it, apply it. And when they fail, they accuse each other, instead of reconsidering this "truth".
Imho they're not as much to blame. The real problem are people claiming their vision as the only true and valid one.
Lately in some guild's chat :
- guildie 1 : LF1M tank for vCOA2
- guildie 2 : LOL you don't need a tank in vCOA2 !!
- me : they're looking for a tank... can't they try and find one without being told what to do or not to do ?
That's one example of the multiple ways those visions spread.As a healer when i get into a group with competent people I never have to use my heals. We just burn through everything. As a group burning down bosses with 4million health in a few minutes.
It's true that ALL 4-men content in the game can be done with 4 DD's, without tank and healer. But not everyone can do it.
@anitajoneb17_ESO So I'm assuming you know exactly what I'm talking about, and have seen the bs that I described in my story for yourself. It's really starting to trip me out, as I've been paying closer attention to things occurring more often. And what I'm observing is very strange, and often times than not false information being spread.0 -
Wifeaggro13✭✭✭✭✭
✭anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »WTF? Why? Just... Why? Where are these players coming from that think like this? I don't understand. I really don't.
Simple. They hear it, believe it, repeat it, apply it. And when they fail, they accuse each other, instead of reconsidering this "truth".
Imho they're not as much to blame. The real problem are people claiming their vision as the only true and valid one.
Lately in some guild's chat :
- guildie 1 : LF1M tank for vCOA2
- guildie 2 : LOL you don't need a tank in vCOA2 !!
- me : they're looking for a tank... can't they try and find one without being told what to do or not to do ?
That's one example of the multiple ways those visions spread.As a healer when i get into a group with competent people I never have to use my heals. We just burn through everything. As a group burning down bosses with 4million health in a few minutes.
It's true that ALL 4-men content in the game can be done with 4 DD's, without tank and healer. But not everyone can do it.
@anitajoneb17_ESO So I'm assuming you know exactly what I'm talking about, and have seen the bs that I described in my story for yourself. It's really starting to trip me out, as I've been paying closer attention to things occurring more often. And what I'm observing is very strange, and often times than not false information being spread.
you cant blame this on the player base really. its the game design and its swirling direction of going in circles. Players new and old are reacting to a design that was meant to appeal to a wide audience and now is only minutely fun to a few.0 -
mewcatus✭✭✭Its amazing how self-resource management is even an issue nowadays. All these peeps need someone else to buffer their backsides inorder to brag about their epeens. Its like having a maid to feed you or pump air into your lungs just because you refuse to inhale.
I am even more amazed people like this can survive in the real world.Edited by mewcatus on January 29, 2017 2:48AM3 -
Ch4mpTW✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Its amazing how self-resource management is even an issue nowadays. All these peeps need someone else to buffer their backsides inorder to brag about their epeens. Its like having a maid to feed you or pump air into your lungs just because you refuse to inhale.
I am even more amazed people like this can survive in the real world.
I don't mind being self-sufficient, as I do my daily undaunted pledges by myself (unless asked by guildies if a DPS is available to assist in their pledges). I also do the vast majority of things on ESO myself, and have no problems with building my builds for solo-based play.
However! If I'm in a trial, I expect certain roles to be done as they're supposed to. Meaning... Damage dealers are to supply CONSISTENT and reasonable damage, tanks are to hold aggro and tank, and healers are to heal and apply buffs here and there. With debuffs thrown into the mix somewhere in there. Lol. Hence my issue with the healer not running Elemental Drain in my trial experience earlier. To be specific, the trial in question was VMoL. A place where everyone SHOULD be on their grind, and on their jobs at all times. You can't really slack there, as the results will often be disastrous (unless you're apart of those carry groups that carry people through Maw for millions of gold).1 -
dday3six✭✭✭✭✭
✭Its amazing how self-resource management is even an issue nowadays. All these peeps need someone else to buffer their backsides inorder to brag about their epeens. Its like having a maid to feed you or pump air into your lungs just because you refuse to inhale.
I am even more amazed people like this can survive in the real world.
What are you even on about?
It's common for there to be support skills to help with resource management in games. It's a very common facet of support roles.
Why would skills exist in ESO that return resources to others if players in a group weren't meant to assist the group with resource management?5 -
dday3six✭✭✭✭✭
✭If I'm in a trial, I expect certain roles to be done as they're supposed to. Meaning... Damage dealers are to supply CONSISTENT and reasonable damage, tanks are to hold aggro and tank, and healers are to heal and apply buffs here and there. With debuffs thrown into the mix somewhere in there. Lol. Hence my issue with the healer not running Elemental Drain in my trial experience earlier. To be specific, the trial in question was VMoL. A place where everyone SHOULD be on their grind, and on their jobs at all times. You can't really slack there, as the results will often be disastrous (unless you're apart of those carry groups that carry people through Maw for millions of gold).
In a trial setting I better can get on board with Ele Drain being the responsibility of the Healer. Note though that in trash fights and even some boss fights, the Destro Ult is very good, and aside from the DPS loss of Resto, it also going to limit space to fit that in. Then, in AOE heavy fights often a Magicka DPS will have Ele Drain as well as the Healer, because the Healer cannot always target every mob with it.0 -
POps75p✭✭✭✭lol, no healers or tanks need?
try running ruins of mazzatun and cradle of shadows with out them and see what happens
these two are the hardest vet ones in the game right now, I've watch while 4 561 played the final boss of mazzatum for hours and never were able to kill him, all but the tank kept dying (I was the tank) but once the healer went down, it was a quick death for the rest
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brandonv516✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I disagree with healers being required to run elemental drain in dungeons. If you want it as a magicka dps, slot it yourself.
People tend to use certain things as a crutch and this is just one example.
Trials of course are a different ball game.1 -
mewcatus✭✭✭I am not talking about heals. I am talking about Stamina and Magicka Regen. Lots of peeps boast about their dps and their numbers, yet without ele drain or other support boosting them, they are complete crap. This is what I mean. Resource management should be first and fore most self reliant. If you can't even put up decent self sustained dps without relying on others, you are nothing more then a dependant braggart. Heals I can accept, protective buffs too. But resource management is where I draw the line. If a person chooses to have insufficient self stam/magicka regen yet except depend on others to boost the afore mentioned, they are nothing more then lazy creeps who blame others when things go south.
Expect healers to aid your resource management is just lazy dependency and selfish inner behavour. What happens when the healer goes down ? The rest of the group goes down like paper just because that regen boost is gone ? Whose fault is it then ? These are the people I despise the most, they are no better then spoiled 2nd generation rich brats.Edited by mewcatus on January 29, 2017 4:03AM0 -
dday3six✭✭✭✭✭
✭I am not talking about heals. I am talking about Stamina and Magicka Regen. Lots of peeps boast about their dps and their numbers, yet without ele drain or other support boosting them, they are complete crap. This is what I mean. Resource management should be first and fore most self reliant. If you can't even put up decent self sustained dps without relying on others, you are nothing more then a dependant braggart. Heals I can accept, protective buffs too. But resource management is where I draw the line. If a person chooses to have insufficient self stam/magicka regen yet except depend on others to boost the afore mentioned, they are nothing more then lazy creeps who blame others when things go south.
Expect healers to aid your resource management is just lazy dependency and selfish inner behavour. What happens when the healer goes down ? The rest of the group goes down like paper just because that regen boost is gone ? Whose fault is it then ? These are the people I despise the most, they are no better then spoiled 2nd generation rich brats.
Simple question. Why does the Templar skill Spear Shards and it's morphs exist? The synergies cannot be used by the Templar themselves, and yet they restore resources.2 -
Bouldercleave✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭This thread is specifically the reason I solo almost exclusively. Everyone has an opinion on what I should be doing with my character.
While I welcome advise and even constructive criticism, I see very little of it here and almost NONE of it in game.4 -
Ch4mpTW✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭If I'm in a trial, I expect certain roles to be done as they're supposed to. Meaning... Damage dealers are to supply CONSISTENT and reasonable damage, tanks are to hold aggro and tank, and healers are to heal and apply buffs here and there. With debuffs thrown into the mix somewhere in there. Lol. Hence my issue with the healer not running Elemental Drain in my trial experience earlier. To be specific, the trial in question was VMoL. A place where everyone SHOULD be on their grind, and on their jobs at all times. You can't really slack there, as the results will often be disastrous (unless you're apart of those carry groups that carry people through Maw for millions of gold).
In a trial setting I better can get on board with Ele Drain being the responsibility of the Healer. Note though that in trash fights and even some boss fights, the Destro Ult is very good, and aside from the DPS loss of Resto, it also going to limit space to fit that in. Then, in AOE heavy fights often a Magicka DPS will have Ele Drain as well as the Healer, because the Healer cannot always target every mob with it.
I'm happy we can understand each other now, and you see what I meant. In dungeons, sure. I'll slap on Elemental Drain (if a healer isn't running it), as it's 4-man content. And honestly, it's nothing to shuffle about a few skills to make room for it. I legitimately wouldn't mind. But a trial setting with no Elemental Drain being supplied by a healer? Errr... What? Which is why I went the resto route (though I typically do run Destro/Run on my magicka-based builds).
Plus, a healer isn't there to strictly heal. A healer's MAIN job and first priority is healing of course, but they should without a doubt be throwing in bits of damage when they can. Though they shouldn't go out of their way to do so. Therefore a healer running that Destro isn't a bad move in the slightest. ^_^Edited by Ch4mpTW on January 29, 2017 4:37AM0 -
karma69✭✭✭Funny thing is that I was doing Wayrest 2 pledge with a CP700+ DD in a pug group and from the start of last boss fight all this dude was spamming was Assassins Blade. Like how can such an experienced player be spamming Assassins Blade from the bosses health at 100%.2
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Ch4mpTW✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Funny thing is that I was doing Wayrest 2 pledge with a CP700+ DD in a pug group and from the start of last boss fight all this dude was spamming was Assassins Blade. Like how can such an experienced player be spamming Assassins Blade from the bosses health at 100%.
@karma69 It's wild, right? I've seen MagPlars use Radiant on enemies at full health in both PvE and PvP, and just shake my head. When I approach these people, and ask them where they got the logic of using an execute against a target at full health the responses are truly bizarre. Or the people in PvE running around with a 2H, and Uppercut spamming a boss in a dungeon or world-boss nonstop. I've seen that as well. Lol. They're not even self-buffing, throwing down DOT's, or any of that. Just Critical Charge, and proceed with letting the Uppercuts rip. It's crazy.
And to those who don't believe my claims, or any of the claims in this thread? Simply agree to help a random low-level out in a dungeon, or just que for dungeon. Or better yet, just wander about clearing dolmens and world-bosses. You will see exactly what we're talking about. People with double bow builds, and spamming light attacks. Using strange rotations and morphs. All that. And then questioned, will give you the most odd stories about why it is that they do what they do.Edited by Ch4mpTW on January 29, 2017 4:52AM1
