Do Trading Guilds operate at a loss?

SanTii.92 · January 2017

Wish i could auto-insightful every post from @code65536

Tan9oSuccka · January 2017

alexkdd99 wrote: »

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

I don't understand the people defending this system.

If no one really makes money from running them, whats the point?

If I want a specific armor piece, I must spend hours wading through garbage at 1,000 different locations.

You do make money. Instead of paying more sales tax we just pay dues every week. The trade guilds I am in have been gaining more and more gold every week, not losing. If guilds set dues at 10k a week per a person, they can comfortably keep a trader every week and build up the bank.

Roughly 5 mil in dues +unknown amount from raffles and auction + sales tax = very profitable.

Where does it end?

The top guilds on PS4 went from 3K to 5k, to now up to 10K per week in dues.

10, 000 X 500 members = 5 Million

That's not factoring any sales data. Guildmasters on the forums tells stories about how they don't make any money. (While a sobbing old Russian woman is playing a tiny violin in the background).

Nestor · January 2017

Asardes wrote: »

Technically correct. But are you any more likely to browse 171 kiosks than you are to browse 1000?

Everything I have bought from a guild store has been from guilds where I am a member, and can download and search the item listing.

I did not want to also point out I can always find what I am looking for by just shopping at the Kiosks in a Major Trading Hub and the ones I am a member of at the bank. That would have been gilding the lily or something.

Thing is, rare items should be rare and take time to find, even if you have gold to spend. A central global listing just removes all effort for those who want to buy items that are rare or want to look for bargains. And, over time, the central listing would eliminate most bargains too.

Nestor · January 2017

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

Thanks for clearing that up, but I think the point may have been missed.

The current system is not good. I won't beat it to death since there's been numerous posts on it.

I really don't think its the Kiosks that make the system so bad, its the Interface people have to use on consoles that sucks. I would only shop the guild stores I was a member of in the bank prior to finding and using the Awesome Guild Store addon. Having to recreate the search parameters on each kiosk absolutely sucks big time. If I had to use the stock UI to shop at guild kiosks, I simply would not shop at them. I did not shop at them for months after they came out because of it. I was still in my anti addon phase back then. Having the ability to at least remember the search from one kiosk to other makes looking for that one item a simple easy job.

If ZOS would improve the interface, allow search criteria to be saved, multiple criteria's in fact, and add a text search feature, you would find the kiosk system be a much different beast than it is now to you.

Glurin · January 2017

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

alexkdd99 wrote: »

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

I don't understand the people defending this system.

If no one really makes money from running them, whats the point?

If I want a specific armor piece, I must spend hours wading through garbage at 1,000 different locations.

You do make money. Instead of paying more sales tax we just pay dues every week. The trade guilds I am in have been gaining more and more gold every week, not losing. If guilds set dues at 10k a week per a person, they can comfortably keep a trader every week and build up the bank.

Roughly 5 mil in dues +unknown amount from raffles and auction + sales tax = very profitable.

Where does it end?

The top guilds on PS4 went from 3K to 5k, to now up to 10K per week in dues.

10, 000 X 500 members = 5 Million

That's not factoring any sales data. Guildmasters on the forums tells stories about how they don't make any money. (While a sobbing old Russian woman is playing a tiny violin in the background).

It ends where the dues and the sales reach a breaking point and members decide it's not worth it to stick around. The guild loses it's members, thus loses it's money, and consequently their trader, which is taken over by a more successful guild.

And as to all this talk of the sales tax not being adjustable that I see in these threads, come on. We all know that the "top" trade guilds would just have that thing maxed out and would still be asking for dues and the bids would probably be even higher because of it.

MilwaukeeScott · January 2017

Yes, we operate at a loss.

Gandrhulf_Harbard · January 2017

Here's a thing to consider for all those interested in making money from trade.

Just imagine how much more profitable trade could be if you didn't have lose 1Million+ a week on a Trade Kiosk.

Imagine how much more of YOUR Gold you could keep if there was just an Auction House sales tax.

But what do I know.

All The Best

code65536 · January 2017

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Here's a thing to consider for all those interested in making money from trade.

Just imagine how much more profitable trade could be if you didn't have lose 1Million+ a week on a Trade Kiosk.

Imagine how much more of YOUR Gold you could keep if there was just an Auction House sales tax.

But what do I know.

All The Best

That's... the point.

The bid system is designed to siphon gold out of the game. And it's a system that scales up as the amount of gold sloshing around increases. All the other gold sinks in the game don't really scale.

code65536 · January 2017

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

alexkdd99 wrote: »

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

I don't understand the people defending this system.

If no one really makes money from running them, whats the point?

If I want a specific armor piece, I must spend hours wading through garbage at 1,000 different locations.

You do make money. Instead of paying more sales tax we just pay dues every week. The trade guilds I am in have been gaining more and more gold every week, not losing. If guilds set dues at 10k a week per a person, they can comfortably keep a trader every week and build up the bank.

Roughly 5 mil in dues +unknown amount from raffles and auction + sales tax = very profitable.

Where does it end?

The top guilds on PS4 went from 3K to 5k, to now up to 10K per week in dues.

10, 000 X 500 members = 5 Million

That's not factoring any sales data. Guildmasters on the forums tells stories about how they don't make any money. (While a sobbing old Russian woman is playing a tiny violin in the background).

Well, it seems console guilds operate differently than PC guilds. On PC/NA, guilds don't have dues. The top guilds do have minimum sales requirements and encourage other forms of financial support. But required weekly payments are not a thing on PC.

Asardes · January 2017

I recently decided to buy all my missing motifs on my main char, which is also the master crafter. I completed them last Sunday. Most of them were bought off guild stores. Without addons like Master Merchant and Awesome Guild Store it would have been nearly impossible to know what a good price was and to look up specific items respectively. On the latter all I had to do was to tick the unknown, purple and crafting motif boxes and the list just popped. Really easy compared to just scrolling endlessly trough the guild store inventory. Even with those advantages it took me around 1.5 hours a day to rotate trough the majority of guild kiosks in the game. I'm now hunting for the few missing recipes, usually lower tier blue and purple.

I've found really good deals on some of the more remote ones, while the inventory on some of the well placed ones was most times overpriced by double or even triple percentage digits according to MM. And I've bumped into the same motif or recipe on two consecutive weeks, with the same absurd price. I sell frequently on my guild stores, rarely does an item sit for more than 10 days, and the majority sell within the same day. When I put an item for sale the price is usually the MM value rounded down by 2-5%. I check them periodically and If I see MM average price has decreased, putting mine "in the red" I instantly relist the item at a lower price. I bet trade guilds were more sustainable and some of their members richer if they just set realistic prices instead of clogging their 30 slots with grossly overpriced merchandise that never sells, and expires.

Epona222 · January 2017

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

Viveun wrote: »

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

I don't understand the people defending this system.

If no one really makes money from running them, whats the point?

If I want a specific armor piece, I must spend hours wading through garbage at 1,000 different locations.

@Tan9oSuccka

The point of systems in game economies is circulation and to prevent inflation

It's not to help people make more money by design. This game just actually works better than some others due to the design.
It's not defending anything, it's understanding the design and how economies work.
ITS also understanding that joining a trading guild is not inline with the design so if you or anyone chooses to join one and support their idea, hopefully now you realize it's not developer design, it's people trying to game the system which by default can damage or hurt a players experiences.

From an overall developer perspective, I can understand that.

I want to know the benefit for someone running a guild if the profit is not there? E-peen?

It's not overly profitable for the guild as a whole. As a buyer its not enjoyable running around to the plethora of kiosks in different zones.

Running a successful trading guild is both challenging and rewarding, imo. Wouldn't do it if there was no enjoyment in it.

That's good insight. I can appreciate that. Do you get to play the game or mostly guild upkeep?

I can maybe answer that a bit, as I am another one who runs a trading guild because I enjoy doing it. Typically my week (starting on Sunday for trader bid/switchover, and bearing in mind this fits around my IRL schedule) involves:
Sunday: Place bid and be on standby for scramble if the bid fails
Monday: Guild admin (rank promotions, logging donations, making sure the MOTD is up to date)
Tuesday: Day off to do my own thing in game
Wednesday: Guild play event (2-5 hours depending upon interest and energy)
Thursday: Day off to do my own thing in game
Friday: Guild play event (2-5 hours depending upon interest and energy)
Saturday: Raffle, occasionally another play event afterwards.

On top of that, I am often inundated with requests for things such as crafting, questions about the guild, help with build advice where I can give it.

I am MORE than happy to do all this, and that is why I choose to run a guild - no-one forced me into it. It's something that makes the game really enjoyable for me. I also have some fantastic guild officers who will help out with running events, which is brilliant and a real boon.

I have never, ever, made money from the guild (other than selling my goods via the trader, same as every other member). I actually feel sickened that people may think that I would do anything like that, because the truth is the other way around - I typically put a large amount of my own personal gold back into the guild each week in various ways. If I loot something juicy, I am more likely to think "this would make a great prize for some guild event" rather than personally cashing in on it. I reckon I put at least 200k of my own cash (or value in goods) per week back into the guild in some way, shape or form. Others in the guild are supportive and many donate gold and items and participate in the raffle to help pay for trader bids. That all goes into the guild bank to pay for a trader, I'm certainly not making money from running a guild.

And to answer the OP: Yes, without raffle entries and donations we would not be able to sustain a feasible trader bid, we'd operate at a large loss. We do ok on voluntary contributions from members, which has always been the ethos of the guild, without that we'd flounder as taxes do not cover the cost of a trader.

Xenophis · January 2017

Asardes wrote: »

I recently decided to buy all my missing motifs on my main char, which is also the master crafter. I completed them last Sunday. Most of them were bought off guild stores. Without addons like Master Merchant and Awesome Guild Store it would have been nearly impossible to know what a good price was and to look up specific items respectively. On the latter all I had to do was to tick the unknown, purple and crafting motif boxes and the list just popped. Really easy compared to just scrolling endlessly trough the guild store inventory. Even with those advantages it took me around 1.5 hours a day to rotate trough the majority of guild kiosks in the game. I'm now hunting for the few missing recipes, usually lower tier blue and purple.

I've found really good deals on some of the more remote ones, while the inventory on some of the well placed ones was most times overpriced by double or even triple percentage digits according to MM. And I've bumped into the same motif or recipe on two consecutive weeks, with the same absurd price. I sell frequently on my guild stores, rarely does an item sit for more than 10 days, and the majority sell within the same day. When I put an item for sale the price is usually the MM value rounded down by 2-5%. I check them periodically and If I see MM average price has decreased, putting mine "in the red" I instantly relist the item at a lower price. I bet trade guilds were more sustainable and some of their members richer if they just set realistic prices instead of clogging their 30 slots with grossly overpriced merchandise that never sells, and expires.

Erm, my prices for certain highly sought after items listed for +100 to 150% of MM value at one of the top trading guilds on PC/NA sell within 1 to 3 days. That's the benefit of having high foot traffic. The kiosk obviously costs more, but people are willing to pay a premium over having to spend hours a day looking for items that they most likely won't find anyway. I always have full 30 listings, and none of them stagnate.