Large houses can only have 12 visitors... seriously?

Yolokin_Swagonborn · January 2017

Zypheran wrote: »

I was very much looking forward to player housing. This was my favourite immersion feature of previous TES games but based on what I'm seeing in PTS, ZOS have taken a relatively straight forward concept and bashed it to death with limitations.
- It will take ages and cost a fortune to craft your own furniture.... this is because they want you to use CS!
- there is no storage
- merchants and bankers have limited functionality
- buggy lighting
- cripplingly low limits on guests
- impinging caps on item placement

And for all these limitations I have no doubt that the costs will be scarily high... I fully expect CS items in excess of 10K crowns!! I think ZOS has missed major opportunity with Homestead to make it far better. I just never understand, ZOS is told by the customer what they want and as always ZOS say 'No, we're gonna give you something else'

The Bolded attitude is quite frustrating. It reeks of someone with a background in marketing, instead of someone with a background in game design, making the final calls.

Totes-Bode · January 2017

If you're having a guild event, at a large house or even a manor you basically have to take reservations. That's a real wrench in socializing as a guild.

DemonDruaga · January 2017

So one can't do anything in his house? No crafting stations or anything?

MLGProPlayer · January 2017

DemonDruaga wrote: »

So one can't do anything in his house? No crafting stations or anything?

You can buy crafting stations, but they're expensive. You can also place your merchant and banker assistants on the property but they won't be able to repait armour or access guild store.

MLGProPlayer · January 2017

Titansteele wrote: »

Time to play devils advocate a little here.

It has been made clear the current limits are to ensure performance. Where I agree they are too low as I see it ZOS are faced with 2 options.
Release Homestead as planned with the caps and allow people to enjoy the features as they are at the moment and address the performance issues using live data as the reference.

Delay Homestead until the performance issues are addressed.

So if they go for the first option at least some people are happy \o/ and in theory at least any performance fixes they put in after using live data to carry out the analysis should be more robust.
If they go for option 2 everyone has to wait, more people are impacted.

I get it, the RP community feel let down but look at it this way. Early Feb you can buy your gaff and by the time you have decorated it the way you want it then perhaps the caps will have increased ..... yay!

What technical limitations could possibly prevent them from raising the visitor cap on large homes? They are the same size as the manors, and in some cases even bigger, yet they only have half the visitor capacity.

DemonDruaga · January 2017

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

DemonDruaga wrote: »

So one can't do anything in his house? No crafting stations or anything?

You can buy crafting stations, but they're expensive. You can also place your merchant and banker assistants on the property but they won't be able to repait armour or access guild store.

Ok so I got something wrong, thanks.
But well if I need to hit the local town to repair/hit the guild bank, i can pretty much use the craft station there.. mmh
Well we will see what the future brings in

notimetocare · January 2017

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Titansteele wrote: »

Time to play devils advocate a little here.

It has been made clear the current limits are to ensure performance. Where I agree they are too low as I see it ZOS are faced with 2 options.
Release Homestead as planned with the caps and allow people to enjoy the features as they are at the moment and address the performance issues using live data as the reference.

Delay Homestead until the performance issues are addressed.

So if they go for the first option at least some people are happy \o/ and in theory at least any performance fixes they put in after using live data to carry out the analysis should be more robust.
If they go for option 2 everyone has to wait, more people are impacted.

I get it, the RP community feel let down but look at it this way. Early Feb you can buy your gaff and by the time you have decorated it the way you want it then perhaps the caps will have increased ..... yay!

What technical limitations could possibly prevent them from raising the visitor cap on large homes? They are the same size as the manors, and in some cases even bigger, yet they only have half the visitor capacity.

Each instance requires dedicated resources form the servers. You are buying that resource.

Titansteele · January 2017

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

What technical limitations could possibly prevent them from raising the visitor cap on large homes? They are the same size as the manors, and in some cases even bigger, yet they only have half the visitor capacity.

Well seeing as we are in the realms of educated guesses at best, as ZOS will not comment on details (for good reason) and nobody else knows for sure the best I could do is offer a plausible response.

I am in no way attempting to impersonate a ZOS employee in doing this. With that disclaimer in place IF a ZOSer was to post in here and say .......

"Our capacity and performance team whom look after the megaserver estate have conducted load testing against the new instances created for homestead. Coupling this with our business intelligence data on the number of active players on a monthly basis and taking into account the increase in both returning players and new visitors to Tamriel which the news of this very popular update has created we were able to get a good forecast of the strain on the infrastructure which underpins ESO. This analysis has allowed us to scale the megaserver hardware according to projected uptake for housing and we are confident that we are scaled correctly for these new features.

We understand that the low caps are an inconvenience for some and some would like to hold larger gathering`s in their homes. We will be monitoring server usage very closely after the release of Homestead and fully intend to double the allowances as soon as we can be sure that it will have no impact on the user experience"

........... then I would be happy.

From a designers point of view it is always best to try and mitigate black swan events as much as possible and you do that by building in headroom into design and carefully increasing limits in a controlled fashion. Most experienced IT professionals will also tell you that production environments are very rarely a carbon copy of test, QA or preprod environments so responsible organisations will be cautious around big feature adds such as this.

I get it, my initial reaction as a player is "awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww" but if I am forced to think about it I am sure there will be a very good reason but we will almost certainly never know what that reason is.

MLGProPlayer · January 2017

Titansteele wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

What technical limitations could possibly prevent them from raising the visitor cap on large homes? They are the same size as the manors, and in some cases even bigger, yet they only have half the visitor capacity.

Well seeing as we are in the realms of educated guesses at best, as ZOS will not comment on details (for good reason) and nobody else knows for sure the best I could do is offer a plausible response.

I am in no way attempting to impersonate a ZOS employee in doing this. With that disclaimer in place IF a ZOSer was to post in here and say .......

"Our capacity and performance team whom look after the megaserver estate have conducted load testing against the new instances created for homestead. Coupling this with our business intelligence data on the number of active players on a monthly basis and taking into account the increase in both returning players and new visitors to Tamriel which the news of this very popular update has created we were able to get a good forecast of the strain on the infrastructure which underpins ESO. This analysis has allowed us to scale the megaserver hardware according to projected uptake for housing and we are confident that we are scaled correctly for these new features.

We understand that the low caps are an inconvenience for some and some would like to hold larger gathering`s in their homes. We will be monitoring server usage very closely after the release of Homestead and fully intend to double the allowances as soon as we can be sure that it will have no impact on the user experience"

........... then I would be happy.

From a designers point of view it is always best to try and mitigate black swan events as much as possible and you do that by building in headroom into design and carefully increasing limits in a controlled fashion. Most experienced IT professionals will also tell you that production environments are very rarely a carbon copy of test, QA or preprod environments so responsible organisations will be cautious around big feature adds such as this.

I get it, my initial reaction as a player is "awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww" but if I am forced to think about it I am sure there will be a very good reason but we will almost certainly never know what that reason is.

That definitely sounds like a ZOS answer because it doesn't actually answer anything.

Titansteele · January 2017

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

That definitely sounds like a ZOS answer because it doesn't actually answer anything.

Then you are not reading close enough

If you expect something that details every memory leak or inefficient subroutine that collectively amounts to what causes performance issues here then you really do have your sights set too high

In short the above statement would say that they are erring on the side of caution with the implementation. With that said it is a moot point as it was merely a pie in the Sky example.

Humatiel · January 2017

its almost as if ZOS made a house and not a guild hall.

ricam · January 2017

Has ZOS commented on the large home player cap at all? I cant seem to find any official response. Is it set in stone or maybe something they are working on?

Elsonso · January 2017

Titansteele wrote: »

"We understand that the low caps are an inconvenience for some and some would like to hold larger gathering`s in their homes. We will be monitoring server usage very closely after the release of Homestead and fully intend to double the allowances as soon as we can be sure that it will have no impact on the user experience"

Except for the word "double", this is probably an accurate statement. However, I think they have an architectural issue with how the server is designed that affects how it is utilized by Homestead, and that this is also part of the issue.

Once they have a better understanding of the actual impact of Homestead, on the live servers, they may have a better idea of what needs to be done, should they want in increase (not double) allowances.

bellatrixed · January 2017

ricam wrote: »

Has ZOS commented on the large home player cap at all? I cant seem to find any official response. Is it set in stone or maybe something they are working on?

They haven't. They did confirm they are looking at ways to increase the overall caps after housing launches, but have not acknowledged the fact medium & large houses have the same cap of 12 yet.

Laplace · January 2017

Humatiel wrote: »

its almost as if ZOS made a house and not a guild hall.

Fair point.

How are they going to convince us to buy guild halls for 10,000 crowns if we can do the same thing with manors or large houses?

Elsonso · January 2017

Laplace wrote: »

Humatiel wrote: »

its almost as if ZOS made a house and not a guild hall.

Fair point.

How are they going to convince us to buy guild halls for 10,000 crowns if we can do the same thing with manors or large houses?

Easy. Guild Halls can have 36 people.

Elder_III · January 2017

lordrichter wrote: »

Laplace wrote: »

Humatiel wrote: »

its almost as if ZOS made a house and not a guild hall.

Fair point.

How are they going to convince us to buy guild halls for 10,000 crowns if we can do the same thing with manors or large houses?

Easy. Guild Halls can have 36 people.

at 20k Crowns most likely...

Shadowshire · January 2017

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_KaiSchober @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_GaryA @ZOS_TristanK

Elder_III wrote: »

Large Houses need to have the limit doubled.... so 24 for Large Houses. Also double (at least) the amount for Manors. having Manors allow 48-50 or so people at once would make them faaaarrrrr more appealing for guilds to buy.

If the reasoning behind such small players caps is due to technical issues I think we would like a detailed explanation of why or what the specific issues are. Perhaps 95% of the people that have little interest or knowledge of such things could care less, but for the 5% of us with a technical background (either hardware or software related) would like to hear the details. I'm not asking for details in order to rant and rave or claim any superior knowledge, but rather out of curiosity and a desire to see these population limitations fixed.

As a retired former programmer, systems analyst, technical writer, and software project development manager, I agree with your remarks and certainly have the same interest in why ZOS has made the decisions which they have made.

Shadowshire · January 2017

willlienellson wrote: »

altemriel wrote: »

so...sadly....housing caps, item caps, no functionality, insane grind, invisible walls, wayshrine incompatibility, etc make Homestead an another fail...

fixed

Fixed? .... as in "the situation is not going to change"?

Well, at the least, I should hope that ZOS has remedied the various and sundry software bugs that I and others have reported, before the Homesteads patch goes "live".

As to various and sundry design flaws -- errors, omissions, and oversights -- I doubt that much, if anything, will be "fixed" at all, whether before the initial release or subsequently.

Just what functional role does a Homestead play in a game such as ESO? Is it anything more than a place to which your characters can return to rest and refresh after their most recent adventure or other activity in Tamriel? Is it anything more than a museum for trophies and displays of "wealth"?

bellatrixed · January 2017

Shadowshire wrote: »

Just what functional role does a Homestead play in a game such as ESO? Is it anything more than a place to which your characters can return to rest and refresh after their most recent adventure or other activity in Tamriel? Is it anything more than a museum for trophies and displays of "wealth"?

The functional thing is a social hub. I fully get that isn't everyone's cup of tea. But apart from the RP guilds that have already been mentioned, trading guilds often have auctions and I know many were hoping for housing to host fun raffles and the like in. Many PVE/PVP guilds were hoping for a base they could have downtime to hang out in and work together to decorate too.

That's why these caps are so harmful. Since housing has no functionality, its ONLY function is for decorating and inviting people over. The caps are way too low with that in mind.

MornaBaine · January 2017

Titansteele wrote: »

Time to play devils advocate a little here.

It has been made clear the current limits are to ensure performance. Where I agree they are too low as I see it ZOS are faced with 2 options.
Release Homestead as planned with the caps and allow people to enjoy the features as they are at the moment and address the performance issues using live data as the reference.

Delay Homestead until the performance issues are addressed.

So if they go for the first option at least some people are happy \o/ and in theory at least any performance fixes they put in after using live data to carry out the analysis should be more robust.
If they go for option 2 everyone has to wait, more people are impacted.

I get it, the RP community feel let down but look at it this way. Early Feb you can buy your gaff and by the time you have decorated it the way you want it then perhaps the caps will have increased ..... yay!

The "problem" with releasing it as is... is the fact that it's likely to be "fixed" or "improved" about the same time we get spell crafting. So, the first of Never. People who buy as is run the risk of getting stuck with something they are always going to be disappointed with and that may never let them do the things they wanted it for in the first place. Like hosting guild events. Zeni has made no promise that they will increase the caps or even try to do so. But the big sticking point for me? OK sure the most it can handle without "performance issues" is 24. Well then MORE of the houses need to hold that many, especially the LARGE houses. There's no excuse to have them with the same cap as the Medium houses, as it is currently.

MornaBaine · February 2017

Apparently ZOS has "solved" this problem by rearranging the categories of the houses and lumping all the Large and Medium houses into the same categoriy without changing the player caps but retaining the huge disparity in prices.

MornaBaine · February 2017

All the other houses are nothing more than bait. They are literally strongarming people into buying the most expensive ones to reach that 24 cap. And guess what? People are doing it. Way to go.

aurethil · February 2017

This thread should not simply fade. Everything pointed out on the PTS about the cap has made it live, and it is VERY much a problem. Large houses....and even manor houses.....have no reason to have these caps. NO REASON. If they want to cite something, like performance as an example, then simply have the option to do things like 'disabling duels increases player limit.'

The lack of functionality of housing is sad...at the very least this player limit needs to be increased. Show the players you read these things and take our advice seriously. There are NUMEROUS threads on this.

MornaBaine · February 2017

aurethil wrote: »

This thread should not simply fade. Everything pointed out on the PTS about the cap has made it live, and it is VERY much a problem. Large houses....and even manor houses.....have no reason to have these caps. NO REASON. If they want to cite something, like performance as an example, then simply have the option to do things like 'disabling duels increases player limit.'

The lack of functionality of housing is sad...at the very least this player limit needs to be increased. Show the players you read these things and take our advice seriously. There are NUMEROUS threads on this.

At the very least, the large houses need to hold 24 players. That doesn't solve the issue but is the very least of what they should be doing right now. It's just bad customer service to ignore this.

altemriel · February 2017

the totally low caps for housing is the biggest fail of ZOS

after that comes no storage