Toolzy wrote: »

I think I saw someone post on here about being able to restyle unique items like the monster helms.

While I fully support a transmog system, I cannot support a transmog that can be applied to unique items like the monster helms. They have a unique skin. It's a trophy basically. Why would you have your trophy melted down and be made into something else? Another reason why it's called unique.

I fully support a transmog system if it follows these conditions:

a) transmogs can only be applied to crafted gear
b) transmogs can only be applied to dropped gear that follows a motif that is already accessible by players (Meaning, if the dropped item is for example a Nord style, you should be able to transmog it as you can get motifs for that. If the dropped item is unique in style (ie. Blood Spawn) then a transmog cannot be applied
c) only Master Crafters (bs/cloth/wood worker) with knowledge of the motif should be able to apply the changes (no tables, no one time use scrolls even though I mentioned this in my earlier posts)
d) transmogs must require a lesser set amount of materials for transmogs to be applied (Meaning, if it costs 160 ingots and 1 style gem to create a new item, a transmog should cost half?/quarter? amount of ingots and one style gem of that motif for the transmog to work)

Agree with all these points, except on d) I wouldn't make the transmog so materially expensive. I would prefer only the new style item and just a few of the metal/wood/cloth required to make the cosmetic change...coming up with 70+ rubedite or ancestor silk will prove prohibitive for those who like to change frequently to try out new styles. I think 10% would be sufficient.

Would really like to see a preview of motifs at a crafting bench like there is in the Crown Store as well; the tiny icon really doesn't help much, and we shouldn't have to go online to find a pic of someone else's character to judge if we like the style on our own toon.

How about they add a 'retrait/restyle' stone to the Crown Store?!?

This topic has probably fallen on deaf ears much like 'weapon dyeing' has.

kargen27 wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

@NewBlacksmurf

The mechanism of how (what clicks, where, how often etc) drops sets get improved is irrelevant to me.
The mechanism of how (what clicks, where, how often etc) crafted sets lose their only remaining unique capability that cannot be currently done in drop sets is irrelevant.

Without crafted set getting new and improved unique capabilities beyond the cosmetics they have now, giving that last cosmetic unique facet away and in the process improving drop sets is a no-way-jose for me. Its a boon, perma-long-term, to drop set hunter-gatherers with the (depending on how) token one-time transient function for the crafters but not for the crafted set wearers who now see their last unique aspect everywhere.

@STEVIL

So what's wrong with the crafted sets now that you feel they need some boosting?

Asking cause I still craft a 5 piece to go with the drops so I'll have two 5 pieces.

Same as you, @NewBlacksmurf, most of my characters have one (1) dropped set accompanying one (1) crafted set to juxtapose set bonuses with style.

But, some of the crafted sets are sorely in need of a boost to make them viable again ... which is part of what @STEVIL is getting at.

Does anyone use Alessia's Bulwark? No.

Any players theorycrafting Oblivion's Foe with the new Soul Assault? No.

Are there recent (yesterday) forum threads about Willow's Path still broken? Yes.

So, we can't easily dismiss @STEVIL's observations.

In fact, a poorly implemented transmog system would be the nail in the coffin for crafted gear and collecting motifs (as they are in Live currently). I still support it. But, it has to be done correctly ... starting with a check of the player's motif knowledge before transmog.

This is why I think requiring a weapon or piece of armor with the style you want to be used to fuse the two might work. That would mean a crafter would actually have to make the piece to be combined with the desired piece in most cases. If you wanted to take it farther you could require the person fusing the two pieces actually know the style as well. To make it really difficult make them know the style and trait. I would prefer making fused armor or weapons bind on equip. This would allow people who invested into being a master crafter a way to put that to use earning gold.

For me the issue of some crafted sets being worthless is separate from dropped sets often looking bad. Lumping the two together makes things more complex and less likely to be done. Kind of like when congress decides to work on a "comprehensive" new bill. That just means they are going to make it so big and complex that it will be in committee forever so they don't actually have to ever vote on it.

For me, when dealing with complex interactive systems like this one, where multiple factors play into use vs not use decisions, the more you pigeon hole the topic to exclude related issues that dont agree with you, the less likely you are to get a good result.

if you exclude enough most detail, anything can be made to sound reasonable.

But it isn't an interactive system in this case. You have some drop sets that are simply just bad sets. If you make them look different they are still just bad sets. That a good weapon might look the same as a bad weapon doesn't change that there are bad sets in the game. Aesthetics has nothing to do with bad sets performance so shouldn't be part of the issue. The fix here is either get rid of the sets or boost them.

A separate issue is getting a prime piece of gear but it is ugly. Or in the case of a role player the wrong style. For instance I know a certain khajiit that is a bit of a racist and will only wear khajiit gear as nothing else is good enough. A fix for this would be allow players to merge weapons or armor so they get the style of weapon they want. This has nothing to do with performance and deals only with aesthetics.

So we have one solution for bad performance and one solution for bad aesthetics. Trying to combine the two complicates things making it less likely either gets done.

As always one can find a way to subdivide out parts one doesn't want included.

Some want discussions about set bonus counts to discount mats and tempers costs to upgrade one greatsword vs two daggers cuz "you know that isn't related to performance."

Some want to exclude 2H burst/pvp performance from a discussion of buffing 2H "to keep up with DW" by trying to limit it to PVE only and then only really trial PVE.

Every strong build in the game right now uses drop sets. period.
Top of every active guild sell price list are drops sets - period.
Some strong builds use crafted sets along with drop sets.
Some strong builds do not use any crafted sets.
One of those "crafted" or "dropped" required massive skills invested and time for traits and motifs and the other didn't.

Making drop sets more popular (giving them style control) while at the same time making crafted sets less necessary (sharing their style control - making that no longer a "crafted sets do this" limited thing) doesn't move things in a more balanced direction or one reflecting skils/time invested - the reverse in fact.


Look, i get the idea - folks want their decisions to use drop sets for their bonuses and availability to not have consequences - they want the decision for crafted vs drops to not include sacrifices in customizations like style and traits- i get that - its why you see threads about "trait change please" ot "style change please" or "trait and style change please" all the time.

those threads keep the "2h should get second set bonus" and "this skill is imbalanced comared to this other skill (but lets ignore passives)" threads company.

But i am not one of those.

The one unique thing crafted sets have that drop sets do not is the ability to control the style.

Want to beef that capability up with easy style change after crafting -great -all good for me.

Want to raise the value and appeal of drop sets by giving them the control of style currently restricted to crafted sets, gotta say no and wonder "when is enough enough for stronger drop set fans?"

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

How about they add a 'retrait/restyle' stone to the Crown Store?!?

This topic has probably fallen on deaf ears much like 'weapon dyeing' has.

Personally I have no interest in being charged real money

I agree.

They could, if they wished, introduce that ability as part of a Guild Skill Line, something like a Scholars / Loremasters guild.

Progress the Skill Line to unlock Restyle and at max level Retrait abilities for example.

All The Best

@Gandrhulf_Harbard

Hot dang. There ya go. But I'd keep it simple just use a crafting passive like....IDK the research passive cause that's pointless at 9 trait but it could serve as both and be meaningful

Kyle1983b14_ESO wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

How about they add a 'retrait/restyle' stone to the Crown Store?!?

This topic has probably fallen on deaf ears much like 'weapon dyeing' has.

Personally I have no interest in being charged real money

I do, since not alot of people have that much spending money aside from actually paying a sub fee but it would be nice if they could do it with in game currency or real $ imo.

IE: In game costs 2x Trait gems to change it with like a 5k fee

@Kyle1983b14_ESO

I'm open to ingame currency. Sorry it that read differently and I'm not saying people shouldn't have the option. I personally wouldn't want it to be real money only tho

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

No. At least, unless it is only available for crafted sets.

The only thing that crafted sets have that is unique to them is motif control for all crafted pieces.

traits - you can get thru farming.

weight - some drop sets come in variable weights so that is not unique for all - more mixed than i thought actually.

Giving motif control to drop sets removes one of the few remaining "why crafted sets exist" benefits.

There's no reason to dump player style just because crafted sets are so niche. The real solution is to both have a restyling/wardrobe/etc. system AND make crafted sets competitive.

Personally, I think restyling doesn't go far enough. We should have complete control over aesthetics, mixing and matching armor looks/costume components/etc. regardless of the weight of our actual underlying armor. We can already do it with costumes, I see no reason not to do it here.

AFTER crafted sets get useful unique capabilities to bring them more in line with their investment in skill points and time, then sure we can talk about beefing up drop sets cosmetics.

Not before.

Gonna have to disagree with your premise. Everyone and their mom is a 9 trait crafter, if crafted sets could actually outperform dropped sets, there would be little incentive to run most content. I really like where they are now, very competitive, but not best in slot. You want a basic Magic DPS set, go craft julianos. You want to min/max for a bit more damage, go farm BSW, etc. There is a basic crafted set for everything in this game.

The biggest problem I have with the current state of motifs and crafting is that most builds require a combo of different sets that often look terrible together. The whole point of motif changing would for me to be able to mix/match drop sets from an aesthetic standpoint. This would frankly make me more likely to buy/farm motifs. As it is now, I dont bother much.

yawn...

I write "get useful unique capabilities to bring them more in line with their investment in skill points and time," and you reply "if crafted sets could actually outperform dropped sets" and go on from there.

What would the result be if crafted sets were able to for 1 pc kill,every monster in a zone and get you all their stuff?

No, i didn't reference anything like that (anymore than i said i wanted crafted sets to outperform drop sets) but i am sure it would be interesting to hear what you think the impact of that change would be.

i said i wanted crafted sets to be brought more in line with their investments and to get unique capabilities... and neither of those is synonymous with "outperform drop sets."

The point i have made reopeatedly is:

Drop sets right now are indispensable - if for no other reason than they have a monopoly on jewels.

Every serious build uses drop sets.
A number of serious builds dont use crafted at all.

that is in part if not most part because drop sets have the following unique building blocks that you can only get from drops:
jewels for all 5pc body sets.
3pc jewel/wpn sets
2pc body monster sets
1-2pc "wpn" sets (mael/master)

If you want to use those building blocks in your setup you have to use drops.

You can also use 5pc body/wpn sets from crafted or drops.

There is NO "you have to use crafted" building block there - the only thing they have "you have to" is cosmetic style control.

crafted can give you advantages - traits for instance are quicker for crafted once you know it. getting the right piece is faster. getting armor of the weights you want is something a few sets have for drops but also there are tons of drops in each weight so... again crafted is faster not better.

My suggestion for giving crafted sets "useful unique capabilities" was to allow them to craft their sets with fewer bonuses - drop one or two of the 2-3-4pc bonuses and create a 3pc "body/wpn set" or a 4pc "body/wpn" set which are building blocks drops do not have. this would help crafted sets at different "sizes" be able to fit in with 2h builds or DW/Shield builds a little easier than say drops would.

"Unique" in that it cannot be done with drops - though they do have their own 3pc set options.
More flexibility and customization - which is IMO part of the reasoning to exist for crafted vs drops.

or not.

As for this...

"The whole point of motif changing would for me to be able to mix/match drop sets from an aesthetic standpoint."


if the whole point is about aesthetics - you can use crafted, right?

Like i said some time ago: this is about making drop sets better (more appealing) and getting the "benefits of drop sets" without the downsides by giving them the only unique upside of crafted too.

yet to some the "balance" between drop sets and crafted shouldn't be part of this discussion.

kargen27 wrote: »

Not a subdivision, keeping separate issues separate. Why complicate things by insisting unrelated problems be lumped together?

"Every strong build in the game right now uses drop sets. period."

Not true but let us assume that is the case. What would the fix be? Increase the bonuses on crafted items might be a fix. Give crafted items unique abilities might also be a fix. Not allowing dropped weapons to be aesthetically altered is not a fix. In fact is irrelevant to the problem.

"The one unique thing crafted sets have that drop sets do not is the ability to control the style."

This is related to the issue and I addressed it by suggesting a fusing of two items. A crafted item would be required to get the final item of choice. This would actually lead to more work for crafters and not less. Sure there might be less people running around with crafted gear on but that doesn't mean a decrease in crafted gear being made in the game.

You are taking a performance issue and wrapping it around an aesthetic issue. People running Hundings Rage now (still a good set) will not drop it just because they can make Draugr Hulk look pretty. Most are going to run the set that best helps what they are trying to do and will tolerate the looks if they have to. Some cover up armor sets with costumes simply because the armor sets do not look appropriate to what they want to be.

So why not let them morph two weapons into one fixing their problem then separate from that boost a few crafted sets. Would be nice if some crafted sets had abilities on them not available on drop sets making them unique. That is something that should be considered on its own merit not lumped in with another problem.

RE this -

""Every strong build in the game right now uses drop sets. period."

Not true "

Ok i will bite

Show me a strong build that doesn't use drop sets.

Exactly what do they use for jewels?

RE this:

People running Hundings Rage now (still a good set) will not drop it just because they can make Draugr Hulk look pretty.

This is a quote from someone for style swap upgrade for drop sets from last page:

"Hell, I don't use dropped item sets simply because I can't control the style"

So, it does seem that some folks are running crafted sets simply because they can control the style.

So, is it somehow crazy to assume some wont switch from crafted to drops if they can get the drop sets improved so they can change the looks?

Why do you assume or have infallible knowledge that folks running hundings rage crafted set are not included in those who want to control motif and would otherwise use/include drop sets?

RE this

"What would the fix be?"

The fix would not be making drop sets better by giving them style control - the one last thing crafted sets have that is uniquely their own.

The gap between drop set and crafted sets will not be helped by making the more valuable, even more used option even more appealing.

That is going the opposite direction.

Some people see value and merit in style control.
Currently that is owned by crafted sets and absent from drop sets.
Giving it to drop sets makes drop sets more valuable, does not make crafted any more valuable and actually lowers them since they loose an exclusive capability and widens the gap between them.

As for "more work for crafters" as i have said, its not about crafters being busy or idle. Some folks want to keep painting it that way or making it about gold - but not me. if i were out to make crafters busier or richer - a crafter-based drop set support change would be a great way to do it.

PS still waiting for that no-drops strong build to see what they did for jewels.

kargen27 wrote: »

"This is a quote from someone for style swap upgrade for drop sets from last page:

"Hell, I don't use dropped item sets simply because I can't control the style""

And I know of a player that will not use potions because real orcs don't do that. Sure in a game such as this there will be the fringe but the amount is very small to the point of not being noticed other than maybe one chance encounter.

"The gap between drop set and crafted sets will not be helped by making the more valuable, even more used option even more appealing."

I maintain the gap is there because of performance differences and not cosmetic.

I really do not understand why you are opposed to this idea. You say it is about the gap between crafted sets and dropped sets but if you are not a crafter why care? Putting the crafting aside it has zero impact on the game and would make a lot of people happy.

"Putting crafting aside" And again we see the tactic - keep cutting out the part that dont help the argument-pro.



First bold about how many you now think there are vs the previous nobody... i will leave you to re-imagine your view of how much cosmetics matters to others. When i see threads frequently on a subject and I know how it affects me and my friends who play and so forth - i tend to not dismiss them as insignificant in numbers.

Second bold - perhaps you dont understand - the gap between drops and crafted usage/value is in favor of drops over crafted, so yeah the fact that crafted can change appearance and drops cannot is not the cause of the gap. It is currently a push that slightly nudges the gap closer, not further apart. its currently one of the things that helps the value of crafted. if it gets added freely to drops with nothing added for crafted, the gap will widen.

look, i get it, plenty of folks want drop sets to be even better than they are now. got it. the massive series of upticks in 1t weren't enough - they need more and hey, just "put crafting aside" for a while and let drops sets get even better and i get that but i do have a question which i did ask before - "when will, enough be enough as far as drop sets go if the post-1T drop set windfall just leads to hue and cry for even more better for drop sets?"

"Put crafting aside" seems to be a possible destination this train is headed to... stops at re-style drops, trait-change along the way.

@kargen27

Still no strong set without drops included? You seemed very certain when you said what i claimed wasnt true.

You seem to be having some problems so let me be clear.

I said it wasnt about how busy crafters are, not that it wasnt about crafting. You seem to conflate busy and relevant/important or even "great".

You even spell it out clearly in your final sentences:
"Being able to change styles would really open that area of the game up. It would make crafting relevant again."

This ties in well with your previous comment:
" Sure there might be less people running around with crafted gear on but that doesn't mean a decrease in crafted gear being made in the game."

So let me be very very clear:

I dont consider a game where crafters are really busy making lotsa "crafted pieces" so those pieces can be consumed to give a cosmetic facelift to drop sets (but where the functional impact to results comes from the drop set) to be a game where "crafting" is "great" or "relevant" even if that means the crafters get lotsa requests and make lotsa gold while fewer and fewer characters are "running around with crafted gear on" and i really dont think that lives up to the investment-to-reward of other skill lines such as the consumable crafting.

That describes a case where crafting has not been made great but has been made trivial. Its gone from being a vital part of a healthy gear system to being fast food empty calories with a high turnover.

I consider crafting to be "great again" when like drop sets, its role is to provide the meat and potatoes, not the colorful garnish on the plate of drop set entrees.

But i get that some in the "drop sets need even more than they got out of 1T" crowd would be fine if the "greatness" or "relevance" of equip crafting was its ability to make drop sets better/prettier and the actual wearing of crafted sets go down.

Its not however what i would call "great again."

If ESO goal for crafted equip was mostly busy upgrading and polishing drop sets with less and less wearing of crafted sets, they really need to tone it back down to a fraction of the skills and time required for consumsble crafting skill mastery. There you have a great combination of "actual use during play", "relevant impact" and "steady work" for about the same cost in skills that equip costs but much less time.

Aside -
As for your conflation on impact on me and my friends, that was about the impact of motifs and drop sets vs crafted, not this proposal of yours. It was a reference to how i wont be as dismissive of how many folks the looks matter to as you sermed ti be.

Finally, let me be again ckear. I am all for motif change now for crafted sets.
I would even be in favor of motif change for drop sets later once crafted sets have been given other new unique capabilities that make their use, actual use not feed them to drop sets for cosmetics use, relevant and impactful and worth their skills and time.

I just dont think the "drop set need even more" is so urgent that it makes taking the only unique to crafted sets feature and adding it to drop sets a good thing for crafting.

EldritchPenguin wrote: »

Toolzy wrote: »

I think I saw someone post on here about being able to restyle unique items like the monster helms.

While I fully support a transmog system, I cannot support a transmog that can be applied to unique items like the monster helms. They have a unique skin. It's a trophy basically. Why would you have your trophy melted down and be made into something else? Another reason why it's called unique.

For a lot of monster sets, being "unique" isn't actually a good thing. Take Grothdarr, for example.



The shoulder pad is levitating and the helmet looks like a potato that has seen better days. Unique or not, under no circumstances do I want to show this off. I'm only wearing it because it's best in slot, and I'm hiding it with a costume 110% of the time.

I already try my damndest to forget that I'm wearing that abomination by burying it deep under a costume. A transmog system would not take away anyone's ability to keep its unique appearance. It would, however, allow people to use their BiS items and still keep the aesthetic they want.

@EldritchPenguin

Oh trust me. I get it. My toon's a Nord. I would love to wear a full on Nord set with a badass viking helm. Instead, I'm wearing the Blood Spawn helm. The only motif that may work with this is an Akaviri but not a lot of people have access to that motif as it is expensive via Alliance credits.

But I still stand by to what I said about unique items not being reforged/retailored/recarved to a new look. It's unique. As for that helm...yeah. That is butt ugly. Maybe we should ask Zos to permanently restyle that. And the shoulder pads? Box modeling issue. Something the have to fix. My thigh armor plates are also floating. I had to buy a crown character change so I can make my toon's hips bigger. My toon's got bootie now!! LOL!

In all honesty, Zos didn't think about this particular aspect (and I know there are others much worse). They should've made the monster drops limited to items that aren't as aesthetically obvious like rings, amulets, waist (buckle design), shields, weapons. It'd probably be much cooler to see those unique designs on the waist buckle design, hilts, bow grips, and stave ends.

YO ZOS!! Are you guys reading this!? I want to wear and see my badass viking helm!!!

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

No. At least, unless it is only available for crafted sets.

The only thing that crafted sets have that is unique to them is motif control for all crafted pieces.

traits - you can get thru farming.

weight - some drop sets come in variable weights so that is not unique for all - more mixed than i thought actually.

Giving motif control to drop sets removes one of the few remaining "why crafted sets exist" benefits.

There's no reason to dump player style just because crafted sets are so niche. The real solution is to both have a restyling/wardrobe/etc. system AND make crafted sets competitive.

Personally, I think restyling doesn't go far enough. We should have complete control over aesthetics, mixing and matching armor looks/costume components/etc. regardless of the weight of our actual underlying armor. We can already do it with costumes, I see no reason not to do it here.

AFTER crafted sets get useful unique capabilities to bring them more in line with their investment in skill points and time, then sure we can talk about beefing up drop sets cosmetics.

Not before.

@STEVIL

This would also give value to those who have invested in crafting, especially if it requires a level of crafting commensurate with the level of gear to be able to convert to a specific motif.

It would give value to the work we have put into leveling our crafting. No reason to require anything of Zos to bring this about.

No argument that it would give more work and even more opportunities to make gold off your crafting skill.

Definite argument over whether more work/time spent making drop sets look pretty and less actual use of crafted gear in play results in "crafting" having more "value".

Assistants at CVS likely give more vaccine shots each year then a Doctor does, but that doesn't mean their training has more value than the cardiologists.

Some casual numbers that likely aren't grossly out of whack with common usage:

Consumable items equipped/used (enchants/potions/food/drink/poisons) on my 12 characters:
Drops 0%
Crafted 100%

Non-consumable items equipped/used on my 12 characters:
Drops 75.5%
Crafted 24.5%

one of those craft-skill-sets seems to have more relevance and impact and actual value than the other does, yet they both cost about the same in skill investment and the one which has an added massive time component (gear) is the lower of the two.

That seems off.

Making a change that would shift the drops use percentage even higher, that only goes one-way, seems to be going in the wrong way.