Dubhliam wrote: »

dramsb14_ESO wrote: »

This thread has been extremely helpful for me, thank you guys for illustrating these weights.

@Dubhliam

May I ask what are you using to generate those charts?

It's quite simple really.

I hit some skills, write down the non crit and crit values of each of them.
Then I add them into the excel chart.
The end DPS result is derived from: (crit_value*crit_chance+noncrit_value*(100-crit_chance)...)/100

This calculation is made for each of the scenarios (since Crit value keeps changing with Force buffs).

Thanks.

Vaoh wrote: »

Are you okay? Everyone here thinks you're in the wrong right now. Js

Sorry but... no. Not *everyone*.
Every "theorycrafter", maybe. Every forumer ? certainly not.

If the point was to prove that sharpened is better than precise... then @Cryptical is 200% right, you have to keep all other factors *constant*.
If the point is to prove by how much sharpened is better than precise... then @Dubhliam did a half-good job by including unclear and messy external factors (prosperous ??? what's prosperous gotta do with it ???)
If the point is to prove that sharpened is TOO powerful and needs nerfing, then... from a purely scientific point of view, you need other factors / methods. (precise+divines)<(sharpened+prosperous)=/=>sharpened is OP.

Mic1007 wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Are you okay? Everyone here thinks you're in the wrong right now. Js

Sorry but... no. Not *everyone*.
Every "theorycrafter", maybe. Every forumer ? certainly not.

If the point was to prove that sharpened is better than precise... then @Cryptical is 200% right, you have to keep all other factors *constant*.
If the point is to prove by how much sharpened is better than precise... then @Dubhliam did a half-good job by including unclear and messy external factors (prosperous ??? what's prosperous gotta do with it ???)
If the point is to prove that sharpened is TOO powerful and needs nerfing, then... from a purely scientific point of view, you need other factors / methods. (precise+divines)<(sharpened+prosperous)=/=>sharpened is OP.

It's already been proven that Sharpened combined with Divines outperforms every other combo by a long shot. There's even a graph that shows it here. What this thread proves is that Sharpened outperforms Precise without the benefit of any armor trait (Prosperous does not give any combat buff, so it is equivalent to wearing traitless gear). Precise, even with the aid of Divines, still does not overcome the raw damage boost of Sharpened alone, therefore proving just how OP Sharpened is.

Sharpened + Divines > Sharpened + Prosperous > Precise + Divines > Nirnhoned + Divines

Sharpened + Prosperous should be just below Nirnhoned + Divines in terms of DPS, but it's not as Sharpened is WAY too strong.

Pretty much this. It's well-established. The reason why Prosperous was used was because it DIDN'T give a combat bonus to show that even in Prosperous gear; if you have sharpened and TBS you still outperform traits that shouldn't be thrown out like that. That's not prosperous at all; that's -preposterous-.

If people need to constantly reiterate this; then I don't know what to say. Either they can't accept that 'science' is theorycrafting, or the fact that they didn't actually READ.

As far as my two gold on the topic though; I think that the other traits need to be brought in line. Whether by nerfing one trait or buffing the others- I don't care. So long as it's brought back in line with the others I'm fine with either outcome.

Still no word from @ZOS_RichLambert ?
I was half expecting a "working as intended" comment.

Meanwhile, here's a video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPoZmHNal1g&amp;feature=youtu.be

Curious, if precise and divibes used thief and shadow and lost what would warrior and shadow compare?

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Can't see the forest because of all the tree's.

It's 9988 DPS with precise + divines
against 11487 DPS with sharpened + prosperous.

Although, these DPS numbers in the video should not be taken as strict as the charts.
I made this video just to support the numbers from my testing before, where the numbers in the charts were derived from a simple excel formula.

The charts are (more) accurate.

Cryptical wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

Cryptical wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

Easy question.

If you have two exact builds;Twice Born Star with Thief and Shadow:
one wearing full light full divines gear + Precise Destro weapon,
one wearing full light full prosperous gear + Sharpened Destro weapon,
which do you think would have better DPS?

You've got more than one variable there. You're changing the armor and the weapon, while trying to make a point about the weapon.

Look at what you did again. In the first build, you wear twice born. In the second build, you change what you're wearing.

If you want to compare a sharpened weapon to a precise weapon, then you do not change the armor at all. Yet here, you are doing that.

I see what you are trying to do - illustrate how dominant the sharpened trait is - but you screwed up the impact of the message by starting out with crit armor for the precise weapon and an indifferent armor for the sharpened. You should have saved that for later, to be able to say something like 'even changing to twice born so you can get a mundus to buff both crit chance and damage does not match sharpened'.

It's the exact same armor.
Just swap Divines trait for anything else.

The point is... everybody knows that Sharpened will outperform Precise.
It's common knowledge.

But people usually can't grasp just how much more powerful Sharpened is.

This test was "rigged" to favor Precise.

• You have 7 extra BiS gear traits to help Precise.
• You have TBS: a BiS set that favors Critical, and benefits most from those BiS traits.
• You have the maximum number of CPs allocated into Elfborn for more Critical.
• You have Minor and Major Force to boost Critical even more

Yet still Sharpened outperforms.
I don't know what @Wrobel or @ZOS_RichLambert were thinking when they named this a "balancing" update.

I don't see much balance.

No, it's not the same base upon which to compare sharpened weapon to a precise weapon.

Twice born means 2 mundus. Switching the trait of the armor from divine to something else means you are changing the size of the effect of the mundus.

Twice born with something else means the basic mundus buff is applied to weapon X. Twice born with divines means a much larger mundus buff is being applied.

Changing the trait of the armor has an effect here.

Don't believe me? Try this - go kill something with twice born divines thief shadow and any weapon you want. Then change to twice born prosperous thief shadow and kill the same mob with the same weapon. You will find that the size of your mundus buffs has gotten smaller because the trait of the armor has an impact in this experiment.

That's how you do a factual comparison, change ONE element at a time.

Wow. Miss the point much?

Oh yeah, one more reason why I advocate for a nerf (for all those that say "don't nerf, buff other traits"):


Where is the logic in having one single trait outperform a 5 piece bonus of a set that is considered BiS?

What does it take for players and ZOS to realize that Sharpened is too damn OP, and it has gone on long enough?

Cryptical wrote: »

SublimeSparo wrote: »

Cryptical wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

Cryptical wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

Easy question.

If you have two exact builds;Twice Born Star with Thief and Shadow:
one wearing full light full divines gear + Precise Destro weapon,
one wearing full light full prosperous gear + Sharpened Destro weapon,
which do you think would have better DPS?

You've got more than one variable there. You're changing the armor and the weapon, while trying to make a point about the weapon.

Look at what you did again. In the first build, you wear twice born. In the second build, you change what you're wearing.

If you want to compare a sharpened weapon to a precise weapon, then you do not change the armor at all. Yet here, you are doing that.

I see what you are trying to do - illustrate how dominant the sharpened trait is - but you screwed up the impact of the message by starting out with crit armor for the precise weapon and an indifferent armor for the sharpened. You should have saved that for later, to be able to say something like 'even changing to twice born so you can get a mundus to buff both crit chance and damage does not match sharpened'.

It's the exact same armor.
Just swap Divines trait for anything else.

The point is... everybody knows that Sharpened will outperform Precise.
It's common knowledge.

But people usually can't grasp just how much more powerful Sharpened is.

This test was "rigged" to favor Precise.

• You have 7 extra BiS gear traits to help Precise.
• You have TBS: a BiS set that favors Critical, and benefits most from those BiS traits.
• You have the maximum number of CPs allocated into Elfborn for more Critical.
• You have Minor and Major Force to boost Critical even more

Yet still Sharpened outperforms.
I don't know what @Wrobel or @ZOS_RichLambert were thinking when they named this a "balancing" update.

I don't see much balance.

No, it's not the same base upon which to compare sharpened weapon to a precise weapon.

Twice born means 2 mundus. Switching the trait of the armor from divine to something else means you are changing the size of the effect of the mundus.

Twice born with something else means the basic mundus buff is applied to weapon X. Twice born with divines means a much larger mundus buff is being applied.

Changing the trait of the armor has an effect here.

Don't believe me? Try this - go kill something with twice born divines thief shadow and any weapon you want. Then change to twice born prosperous thief shadow and kill the same mob with the same weapon. You will find that the size of your mundus buffs has gotten smaller because the trait of the armor has an impact in this experiment.

That's how you do a factual comparison, change ONE element at a time.

Wow. Miss the point much?

What's his point? That sharpened is better? Everybody knows that. We know. We already knew. Quelle surprise!

My point was that he did a shoddy job of presenting his point... That no matter how right he is, the way he made his graphs wouldn't get a passing grade in a high school science class because he didn't keep the base of the experiment consistent from A to B, and tossed in completely irrelevant stuff.

Aren't we a little OCD?

You know, not everyone can relate to values.
Numbers.

If a road from place A to place B is 10% longer than the road from place A to place C, how much time will it take to go from A to C?
There is no answer because we were only comparing the lengths of two roads, ignoring all other relevant factors.

I already tried explaining to you the logic behind my testing.
Other people get it.

You even had a graph early on comparing three apples and an orange, but you just could not ignore the orange now, could you?

Cryptical wrote: »

SublimeSparo wrote: »

Cryptical wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

Cryptical wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

Easy question.

If you have two exact builds;Twice Born Star with Thief and Shadow:
one wearing full light full divines gear + Precise Destro weapon,
one wearing full light full prosperous gear + Sharpened Destro weapon,
which do you think would have better DPS?

You've got more than one variable there. You're changing the armor and the weapon, while trying to make a point about the weapon.

Look at what you did again. In the first build, you wear twice born. In the second build, you change what you're wearing.

If you want to compare a sharpened weapon to a precise weapon, then you do not change the armor at all. Yet here, you are doing that.

I see what you are trying to do - illustrate how dominant the sharpened trait is - but you screwed up the impact of the message by starting out with crit armor for the precise weapon and an indifferent armor for the sharpened. You should have saved that for later, to be able to say something like 'even changing to twice born so you can get a mundus to buff both crit chance and damage does not match sharpened'.

It's the exact same armor.
Just swap Divines trait for anything else.

The point is... everybody knows that Sharpened will outperform Precise.
It's common knowledge.

But people usually can't grasp just how much more powerful Sharpened is.

This test was "rigged" to favor Precise.

• You have 7 extra BiS gear traits to help Precise.
• You have TBS: a BiS set that favors Critical, and benefits most from those BiS traits.
• You have the maximum number of CPs allocated into Elfborn for more Critical.
• You have Minor and Major Force to boost Critical even more

Yet still Sharpened outperforms.
I don't know what @Wrobel or @ZOS_RichLambert were thinking when they named this a "balancing" update.

I don't see much balance.

No, it's not the same base upon which to compare sharpened weapon to a precise weapon.

Twice born means 2 mundus. Switching the trait of the armor from divine to something else means you are changing the size of the effect of the mundus.

Twice born with something else means the basic mundus buff is applied to weapon X. Twice born with divines means a much larger mundus buff is being applied.

Changing the trait of the armor has an effect here.

Don't believe me? Try this - go kill something with twice born divines thief shadow and any weapon you want. Then change to twice born prosperous thief shadow and kill the same mob with the same weapon. You will find that the size of your mundus buffs has gotten smaller because the trait of the armor has an impact in this experiment.

That's how you do a factual comparison, change ONE element at a time.

Wow. Miss the point much?

What's his point? That sharpened is better? Everybody knows that. We know. We already knew. Quelle surprise!

My point was that he did a shoddy job of presenting his point... That no matter how right he is, the way he made his graphs wouldn't get a passing grade in a high school science class because he didn't keep the base of the experiment consistent from A to B, and tossed in completely irrelevant stuff.

At least you admit you don't get his point.
That does explain everything.

Dubhliam wrote: »

SlinkySlack wrote: »

Ok , and here I was spending the whole of the past 3 weeks getting resources for cp160 5piece TBS set and buying nirncrux for weapons and researching (past 3months) the finale traits on crafter ,counting the days , eventually asked for someone to craft me 2 TBS pieces. Only to find out after 3 pretty pleased days wearing the set, that divine damned prosperous does more damage ;( yes that's a tear running down my chick.
But if it is mostly sharpened , can someone please put (sharpened with divines) and (nirnhoned with prosperous) in the graph, that would help a lot.

Edit to put in TBS, spelling

As per @SlinkySlack request:


It's pretty obvious that having 7 Divines with Sharpened will do more damage.

But a simple graph comparing Sharpened vs Precise vs Nirnoned would not be enough to show people just how overpowered this trait is.
There will always be those "Yeah, but in endgame veteran trials boss will have 0 resistances" comments.

In the end, remember all that hours and days you spent farming for that last Divines Burning Spellweave.
All the frustration and rage when you dropped Prosperous and Training.
It's all futile if you don't have Sharpened weapons.

Divines is just the tip of the DPS iceberg.
Sharpened IS the iceberg.

Try nirnhoned and sharpened. But on dual wield bar.

I wonder how many people are farming sets of prosperous now.

Prosperous sucks because maybe one out of three enemies drop loot to begin with, with the gold being on humanoid type enemies. That's like designing a trait that only works 33% of the time and only on arthropods.

Prosperous doesn't suck because we don't want it. It sucks because 66% of the time it doesn't even want itself.


ZOS created 9 traits per weapon and armor. Divines and Sharpened are the meta because when ZOS created the boxes of candy and chose the flavors, they made chocolate, cabbage, mushroom, garbage, puke, asphalt, gasoline, feces, and carpet. Who would not choose chocolate for their weapons and armor given those choices? It's just that much sweeter.

But you don't ruin the chocolate. People want the chocolate. Chocolate is enjoyable. Now they have to go back and redesign 8 other flavors that people actually want and are competitive with chocolate. That probably means rolling defending and powered into one trait and buffing it. Rolling nirnhoned, reinforced, and sturdy into one trait and buffing it. Rolling impenetrable, charged, and infused into one trait and buffing it. Then five more new traits that people would use. If prosperous doubled or tripled all loot drops and increased the chances of looting high quality crafting and decorative items, it would probably compare enough to the combat benefits of divines to equip it.

But you don't ruin the chocolate. You raise everything to chocolate's level and then you buff the world enough that it's noticeably harder without chocolate or strawberry cheesecake or caramel swirl white fudge. Then people will choose the enjoyable flavor their character needs to better engage the world they're in and the character choices they've made.

Basically. Strange how I can write large posts like this with such little faith that I have.

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

@Dubhliam

What's the point of this worthless poll. The comparison is a complete joke and is meaningless.

it seems you have a habit of just calling peoples threads worthless .. or you just troll

the point was that with BIS gear, you dont perform as well with the most useless trait with sharpened weapons