Twice Born Wars: Precise+Divines vs Sharpened+Prosperous?

Dubhliam

Acrolas wrote: »

Prosperous sucks because maybe one out of three enemies drop loot to begin with, with the gold being on humanoid type enemies. That's like designing a trait that only works 33% of the time and only on arthropods.

Prosperous doesn't suck because we don't want it. It sucks because 66% of the time it doesn't even want itself.


ZOS created 9 traits per weapon and armor. Divines and Sharpened are the meta because when ZOS created the boxes of candy and chose the flavors, they made chocolate, cabbage, mushroom, garbage, puke, asphalt, gasoline, feces, and carpet. Who would not choose chocolate for their weapons and armor given those choices? It's just that much sweeter.

But you don't ruin the chocolate. People want the chocolate. Chocolate is enjoyable. Now they have to go back and redesign 8 other flavors that people actually want and are competitive with chocolate. That probably means rolling defending and powered into one trait and buffing it. Rolling nirnhoned, reinforced, and sturdy into one trait and buffing it. Rolling impenetrable, charged, and infused into one trait and buffing it. Then five more new traits that people would use. If prosperous doubled or tripled all loot drops and increased the chances of looting high quality crafting and decorative items, it would probably compare enough to the combat benefits of divines to equip it.

But you don't ruin the chocolate. You raise everything to chocolate's level and then you buff the world enough that it's noticeably harder without chocolate or strawberry cheesecake or caramel swirl white fudge. Then people will choose the enjoyable flavor their character needs to better engage the world they're in and the character choices they've made.

Basically. Strange how I can write large posts like this with such little faith that I have.

Have you not seen this picture?

Sharpened is not chocolate.

Sharpened is a bazooka brought to a western gun standoff.
We don't need 7 more bazookas in a western standoff, we need to remove the one that makes such a ruckus in the first place.

LiquidSchwartz

Precise + Divines

AzuraKin wrote: »

Dawnblade wrote: »

AzuraKin wrote: »

Dawnblade wrote: »

Thanks for some of the math posted in this thread (I hate hearing 'just use X because it is better' without some measurement to represent 'better'), interesting to see that even in a perfect world scenario with zero resistance, sharpened pushes close to 5% better than the next best, and in normal world scenarios is closer to 10% better.

I don't know what kind of balance this game has historically seen or what the developers consider 'close enough', but a 5% - 10% difference in performance based on using the best versus the second best trait on ONE item seems pretty ridiculous.

Also are there any really good resources available with the math behind everything and / or the ability to sim a character and various builds / gear to see how different changes affect potential performance?

I ask because most 'build' or fan sites seem to be full of fancy names and videos for a build like 'The Dominator' with a bunch of pretty pictures and a 'use this gear' and 'use these abilities' without any real math provided as to why certain gear / abilities / CP / etc are selected over others.

@AzuraKin The list you provided is exactly what I'm talking about with regard to most 'information' I find, that is a list with a bunch of words but no numbers / math provided to allow for a comparison between abilities / gear / traits /etc.

At its core, the game is based on math and numbers, so providing a list of words and phrases to describe affects without providing actual numbers is useless in evaluating and comparing traits, especially when the topic is around which traits produce the most damage (a math problem - not a writing / reading comprehension problem).

you want math? go calculate the numbers yourself. stop being a lazy *** who complains about mechanics being out of whack when you do not even understand the mechanics of the system you are complaining about. yes sharpened allows dps to do significantly more dps then precise, but precise and powered are so close together the small difference in RMS is minimal. thus we see here that precise is obviously intended to be a healer's trait not a damage trait.

Defensive much?

All I did was state that posting opinions (or using the words on the traits to show how they are useful in certain situations) in a thread attempting to show how sharpened is over-performing with respect to traits and their effects on damage doesn't add much to the conversation - we can all read and see that things like the training trait is good for grinding XP and not for maximizing damage.

By the way, do you have any actual data to refute the posts showing how large of a gap there is between traits with respect to damage?

If not and / or if you agree with the data regarding the gap, do you believe such a gap / disparity between traits should exist?

As far as I can tell, you are the one who doesn't understand the mechanics at play and is unwilling or unable to calculate the differences (you'll note I actually asked where to find resources to do so while you continue to use words such as 'significantly' while making personal attacks instead of providing data).

Or maybe you were stating an opinion that the difference in potential damage performance between traits doesn't matter - which is a valid opinion to hold, but doesn't change the facts with respect to a gap existing or change the size of the gap.

i cannot say on what the specific gap on ones like charged as i do not use effects for dps thus i have never tested them. but i would say they have very specific targeted nitches as with most traits. people think too much in a box. and no i dont need to post numbers as you can do that work yourself. its not hard to see changes to your damage with different traits. you just gotta be willing to put some work into learning them. and to be frank, if you not willing to put in the work to see how different traits work what they effect and where they can be useful, how can you complain they are not balanced? for example based on the wording of the charged trait, it should boost the chance of burning spellweave 5p effect by 220% putting it to 64% chance to proc every 12s. this nets a fire mage dps 600 spell damage for 8s every 12s or a RMS of 400 spell power. though i have not actually tested it, but theoretically it should due to it boosting effect chance. its things like that you have to be aware of when trying to decide if things are balanced or imbalanced. many players who complain about somthing are reacting to thier low success rate with thier build when they have maybe a few months of experience. i was something around 6-8 months before i had a solid grasp on my nb, almost the same period on learning my templar. now i dont mean simple learning to play i mean mastering, being a challenge to take down in pvp, ect. any good game you not gonna be good overnight. you gotta learn basics, master the toon, and then keep up with the changes and relearn and master each time. traits may change from time to time, and best trait will depend on your style and role. for example i have 2 templar healers. 1 is heavily focused on crit and moderate regen (2200), the other is low on crit but heavily focused on regen (4k+) both are viable healers, but they have different focus' for thier healing, one can sit ther and spam bol nearly all day without heavy attacks and very moderate if any potion use, the other cannot spam bol as long but crits a lot more often, thus making her more effective in other areas like repentance. its all about focus of your toon. and sadly as long as you look to others for answers you will be dependent on others for what traits you use. the traits they like, will be what you use. on the otherhand if you do the work figure things out you will come up with unique build traits fit to your playstyle. for example i use both precise and sharpened on my mageblade main toon because single target i need the extra penetration as it boosts damage and healing both from funnel health as well as entropy and impale plus whatever skill i am using in 4th slot on that bar, on the otherhand i dont really need the pierce for adds, thus for my 2nd bar i use precise as that is my aoe bar, sap essence, m. detonation, teleport strike, meteor. what this does is it boost my healing to team mates, and also if i using meteor in a single target situation by the time it hits after i cast it, i can weapon swap to single target bar for the penetration. conversely on my stamblade, i only interested in sharpened as i cannot rely on tank putting all the armor debuffs to eliminate the need for sharpened to get through armor. its a matter of knowing your toon, knowing your enemy and plannning effectively. most likely for my stamblade i will be aquiring gear for pvp for a tank buster role, in where i will penetrate with help of a teammate, nearly 40,000 armor. i wont be the strongest against softer targets, but tanky builds will hate me when i tear through their stamina for blocking and all thier armor resist.

holy wall of text you should be more liberal with your useage of parahraphs lmao

Toc de Malsvi

Dubhliam wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Can't see the forest because of all the tree's.

It's 9988 DPS with precise + divines
against 11487 DPS with sharpened + prosperous.

Although, these DPS numbers in the video should not be taken as strict as the charts.
I made this video just to support the numbers from my testing before, where the numbers in the charts were derived from a simple excel formula.

The charts are (more) accurate.

Actually referring to a different prolific poster on this thread. There is no doubt behind the state of weapon traits.

The champion race horse has been hobbled and is still beating the competition. Yet people complain that the winner being hobbled makes the race invalid.

Dubhliam

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Can't see the forest because of all the tree's.

It's 9988 DPS with precise + divines
against 11487 DPS with sharpened + prosperous.

Although, these DPS numbers in the video should not be taken as strict as the charts.
I made this video just to support the numbers from my testing before, where the numbers in the charts were derived from a simple excel formula.

The charts are (more) accurate.

Actually referring to a different prolific poster on this thread. There is no doubt behind the state of weapon traits.

The champion race horse has been hobbled and is still beating the competition. Yet people complain that the winner being hobbled makes the race invalid.

My mistake, I thought you were talking about the video.

Yeah, it's sad to see the only discussion being made here is the one where one individual is trying to disqualify the testing due to different parameters being tested at the same time.

Where are the comments on bringing balance?
Where are the comments on the proposed solution (percentage based penetration)?
Where are the comments on why so many players voted for Precis + Divines?

Seems a lot of people simply don't care about balance, as long as they have the possibility of having an advantage over other people that don't realize just how OP "thing X" is.

Mic1007

Sharpened + Prosperous

Sharpened needs to be nerfed, no doubt. Either bring it down to the same level of Spriggan, or revert it back to its old percentage. Ever since I first read this thread, I've avoided Precise weapons like the Plague.

driosketch

Dubhliam wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Can't see the forest because of all the tree's.

It's 9988 DPS with precise + divines
against 11487 DPS with sharpened + prosperous.

Although, these DPS numbers in the video should not be taken as strict as the charts.
I made this video just to support the numbers from my testing before, where the numbers in the charts were derived from a simple excel formula.

The charts are (more) accurate.

Actually referring to a different prolific poster on this thread. There is no doubt behind the state of weapon traits.

The champion race horse has been hobbled and is still beating the competition. Yet people complain that the winner being hobbled makes the race invalid.

My mistake, I thought you were talking about the video.

Yeah, it's sad to see the only discussion being made here is the one where one individual is trying to disqualify the testing due to different parameters being tested at the same time.

Where are the comments on bringing balance?
Where are the comments on the proposed solution (percentage based penetration)?
Where are the comments on why so many players voted for Precis + Divines?

Seems a lot of people simply don't care about balance, as long as they have the possibility of having an advantage over other people that don't realize just how OP "thing X" is.

I found this post by @Masel92 in another thread about the weapon rng grind.

Masel92 wrote: »

Traits are the real problem. Balance traits and this problem goes away.
I'll post you a suggestion that I keep making (this hay to be like the 100th time):

Precise up to 15% (or 10% crit chance and an 8% crit damage multiplier), nirnhoned to 33%, sharpened and defending remain the same or become 25%. Powered gives healing done and significantly buffs light and heavy attack damage to make it effective in weaving builds. Charged increases chance for status effects and doubles their effectiveness and duration (this would be cool in both PvE and PvP). Decisive reduces ultimate cost in addition to the current buff to ultimate gained. Prosperous buffs gold gained and increases the item drop chance for rare items to make it useful in farming overland sets. Training remains as it is. Infused applies to poisons as well to make it worth using on dd characters and PvP.

Dubhliam

driosketch wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Can't see the forest because of all the tree's.

It's 9988 DPS with precise + divines
against 11487 DPS with sharpened + prosperous.

Although, these DPS numbers in the video should not be taken as strict as the charts.
I made this video just to support the numbers from my testing before, where the numbers in the charts were derived from a simple excel formula.

The charts are (more) accurate.

Actually referring to a different prolific poster on this thread. There is no doubt behind the state of weapon traits.

The champion race horse has been hobbled and is still beating the competition. Yet people complain that the winner being hobbled makes the race invalid.

My mistake, I thought you were talking about the video.

Yeah, it's sad to see the only discussion being made here is the one where one individual is trying to disqualify the testing due to different parameters being tested at the same time.

Where are the comments on bringing balance?
Where are the comments on the proposed solution (percentage based penetration)?
Where are the comments on why so many players voted for Precis + Divines?

Seems a lot of people simply don't care about balance, as long as they have the possibility of having an advantage over other people that don't realize just how OP "thing X" is.

I found this post by @Masel92 in another thread about the weapon rng grind.

Masel92 wrote: »

Traits are the real problem. Balance traits and this problem goes away.
I'll post you a suggestion that I keep making (this hay to be like the 100th time):

Precise up to 15% (or 10% crit chance and an 8% crit damage multiplier), nirnhoned to 33%, sharpened and defending remain the same or become 25%. Powered gives healing done and significantly buffs light and heavy attack damage to make it effective in weaving builds. Charged increases chance for status effects and doubles their effectiveness and duration (this would be cool in both PvE and PvP). Decisive reduces ultimate cost in addition to the current buff to ultimate gained. Prosperous buffs gold gained and increases the item drop chance for rare items to make it useful in farming overland sets. Training remains as it is. Infused applies to poisons as well to make it worth using on dd characters and PvP.

As far as making other traits grant more utility, I'm all for that.

But if we focus simply on the traits that benefit damage dealers, isn't it simpler to change revert the one trait they broke when they meddled with traits, rather than changing everything else?

People already complain about the damage creep that comes with CP cap being raised every patch, why is everyone so afraid of a nerf to a single trait?
Besides, if Sharpened gets nerfed to be on par with Precise and Nirnhoned, how is that in any way different than buffing Precise and Nirnhoned (and then every other trait to compensate)?

driosketch

Dubhliam wrote: »

driosketch wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Can't see the forest because of all the tree's.

It's 9988 DPS with precise + divines
against 11487 DPS with sharpened + prosperous.

Although, these DPS numbers in the video should not be taken as strict as the charts.
I made this video just to support the numbers from my testing before, where the numbers in the charts were derived from a simple excel formula.

The charts are (more) accurate.

Actually referring to a different prolific poster on this thread. There is no doubt behind the state of weapon traits.

The champion race horse has been hobbled and is still beating the competition. Yet people complain that the winner being hobbled makes the race invalid.

My mistake, I thought you were talking about the video.

Yeah, it's sad to see the only discussion being made here is the one where one individual is trying to disqualify the testing due to different parameters being tested at the same time.

Where are the comments on bringing balance?
Where are the comments on the proposed solution (percentage based penetration)?
Where are the comments on why so many players voted for Precis + Divines?

Seems a lot of people simply don't care about balance, as long as they have the possibility of having an advantage over other people that don't realize just how OP "thing X" is.

I found this post by @Masel92 in another thread about the weapon rng grind.

Masel92 wrote: »

Traits are the real problem. Balance traits and this problem goes away.
I'll post you a suggestion that I keep making (this hay to be like the 100th time):

Precise up to 15% (or 10% crit chance and an 8% crit damage multiplier), nirnhoned to 33%, sharpened and defending remain the same or become 25%. Powered gives healing done and significantly buffs light and heavy attack damage to make it effective in weaving builds. Charged increases chance for status effects and doubles their effectiveness and duration (this would be cool in both PvE and PvP). Decisive reduces ultimate cost in addition to the current buff to ultimate gained. Prosperous buffs gold gained and increases the item drop chance for rare items to make it useful in farming overland sets. Training remains as it is. Infused applies to poisons as well to make it worth using on dd characters and PvP.

As far as making other traits grant more utility, I'm all for that.

But if we focus simply on the traits that benefit damage dealers, isn't it simpler to change revert the one trait they broke when they meddled with traits, rather than changing everything else?

People already complain about the damage creep that comes with CP cap being raised every patch, why is everyone so afraid of a nerf to a single trait?
Besides, if Sharpened gets nerfed to be on par with Precise and Nirnhoned, how is that in any way different than buffing Precise and Nirnhoned (and then every other trait to compensate)?

Eh, next update I'm losing the stun off my primary cc, 21% from my execute, and ~25% uptime on my sustain set while gaining around 2% on my damage constellation. I don't want to deal with another 20% nerf on top of that.

Dubhliam

driosketch wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

driosketch wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Can't see the forest because of all the tree's.

It's 9988 DPS with precise + divines
against 11487 DPS with sharpened + prosperous.

Although, these DPS numbers in the video should not be taken as strict as the charts.
I made this video just to support the numbers from my testing before, where the numbers in the charts were derived from a simple excel formula.

The charts are (more) accurate.

Actually referring to a different prolific poster on this thread. There is no doubt behind the state of weapon traits.

The champion race horse has been hobbled and is still beating the competition. Yet people complain that the winner being hobbled makes the race invalid.

My mistake, I thought you were talking about the video.

Yeah, it's sad to see the only discussion being made here is the one where one individual is trying to disqualify the testing due to different parameters being tested at the same time.

Where are the comments on bringing balance?
Where are the comments on the proposed solution (percentage based penetration)?
Where are the comments on why so many players voted for Precis + Divines?

Seems a lot of people simply don't care about balance, as long as they have the possibility of having an advantage over other people that don't realize just how OP "thing X" is.

I found this post by @Masel92 in another thread about the weapon rng grind.

Masel92 wrote: »

Traits are the real problem. Balance traits and this problem goes away.
I'll post you a suggestion that I keep making (this hay to be like the 100th time):

Precise up to 15% (or 10% crit chance and an 8% crit damage multiplier), nirnhoned to 33%, sharpened and defending remain the same or become 25%. Powered gives healing done and significantly buffs light and heavy attack damage to make it effective in weaving builds. Charged increases chance for status effects and doubles their effectiveness and duration (this would be cool in both PvE and PvP). Decisive reduces ultimate cost in addition to the current buff to ultimate gained. Prosperous buffs gold gained and increases the item drop chance for rare items to make it useful in farming overland sets. Training remains as it is. Infused applies to poisons as well to make it worth using on dd characters and PvP.

As far as making other traits grant more utility, I'm all for that.

But if we focus simply on the traits that benefit damage dealers, isn't it simpler to change revert the one trait they broke when they meddled with traits, rather than changing everything else?

People already complain about the damage creep that comes with CP cap being raised every patch, why is everyone so afraid of a nerf to a single trait?
Besides, if Sharpened gets nerfed to be on par with Precise and Nirnhoned, how is that in any way different than buffing Precise and Nirnhoned (and then every other trait to compensate)?

Eh, next update I'm losing the stun off my primary cc, 21% from my execute, and ~25% uptime on my sustain set while gaining around 2% on my damage constellation. I don't want to deal with another 20% nerf on top of that.

Sooooo... because they finally realized RO was overpowered, they should leave other overpowered thing in the game just for the sake of Templars?

"You" won't be losing anything if a trait gets nerfed, because traits are global, it's not like this would nerf your particular class further.

driosketch

Dubhliam wrote: »

driosketch wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

driosketch wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Can't see the forest because of all the tree's.

It's 9988 DPS with precise + divines
against 11487 DPS with sharpened + prosperous.

Although, these DPS numbers in the video should not be taken as strict as the charts.
I made this video just to support the numbers from my testing before, where the numbers in the charts were derived from a simple excel formula.

The charts are (more) accurate.

Actually referring to a different prolific poster on this thread. There is no doubt behind the state of weapon traits.

The champion race horse has been hobbled and is still beating the competition. Yet people complain that the winner being hobbled makes the race invalid.

My mistake, I thought you were talking about the video.

Yeah, it's sad to see the only discussion being made here is the one where one individual is trying to disqualify the testing due to different parameters being tested at the same time.

Where are the comments on bringing balance?
Where are the comments on the proposed solution (percentage based penetration)?
Where are the comments on why so many players voted for Precis + Divines?

Seems a lot of people simply don't care about balance, as long as they have the possibility of having an advantage over other people that don't realize just how OP "thing X" is.

I found this post by @Masel92 in another thread about the weapon rng grind.

Masel92 wrote: »

Traits are the real problem. Balance traits and this problem goes away.
I'll post you a suggestion that I keep making (this hay to be like the 100th time):

Precise up to 15% (or 10% crit chance and an 8% crit damage multiplier), nirnhoned to 33%, sharpened and defending remain the same or become 25%. Powered gives healing done and significantly buffs light and heavy attack damage to make it effective in weaving builds. Charged increases chance for status effects and doubles their effectiveness and duration (this would be cool in both PvE and PvP). Decisive reduces ultimate cost in addition to the current buff to ultimate gained. Prosperous buffs gold gained and increases the item drop chance for rare items to make it useful in farming overland sets. Training remains as it is. Infused applies to poisons as well to make it worth using on dd characters and PvP.

As far as making other traits grant more utility, I'm all for that.

But if we focus simply on the traits that benefit damage dealers, isn't it simpler to change revert the one trait they broke when they meddled with traits, rather than changing everything else?

People already complain about the damage creep that comes with CP cap being raised every patch, why is everyone so afraid of a nerf to a single trait?
Besides, if Sharpened gets nerfed to be on par with Precise and Nirnhoned, how is that in any way different than buffing Precise and Nirnhoned (and then every other trait to compensate)?

Eh, next update I'm losing the stun off my primary cc, 21% from my execute, and ~25% uptime on my sustain set while gaining around 2% on my damage constellation. I don't want to deal with another 20% nerf on top of that.

Sooooo... because they finally realized RO was overpowered, they should leave other overpowered thing in the game just for the sake of Templars?

"You" won't be losing anything if a trait gets nerfed, because traits are global, it's not like this would nerf your particular class further.

Point being it isn't just a simple nerf to one trait in a vacuum. Elements and mechanics are interconected.

We are talking about a primary skill of the magicka side of the class that is, along with another primary skill, getting nerfed without other skills being brought up to compensate. So this requires looking outside the class for ways to close the gap. It doesn't matter if trait changes are global if classes aren't properly balanced, and we're talking both internally as well as externally. (I will note for instance, stamplars are getting a little help next update.)

If sharpen only comes down, that just means it takes longer to kill everything, which I think necessities rebalance of health and boss resistance in things like vet dungeons, trials and vMA.

Master_Kas

Sharpened + Prosperous

Bcuz prosperous is OP

Dubhliam

driosketch wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

driosketch wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

driosketch wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Can't see the forest because of all the tree's.

It's 9988 DPS with precise + divines
against 11487 DPS with sharpened + prosperous.

Although, these DPS numbers in the video should not be taken as strict as the charts.
I made this video just to support the numbers from my testing before, where the numbers in the charts were derived from a simple excel formula.

The charts are (more) accurate.

Actually referring to a different prolific poster on this thread. There is no doubt behind the state of weapon traits.

The champion race horse has been hobbled and is still beating the competition. Yet people complain that the winner being hobbled makes the race invalid.

My mistake, I thought you were talking about the video.

Yeah, it's sad to see the only discussion being made here is the one where one individual is trying to disqualify the testing due to different parameters being tested at the same time.

Where are the comments on bringing balance?
Where are the comments on the proposed solution (percentage based penetration)?
Where are the comments on why so many players voted for Precis + Divines?

Seems a lot of people simply don't care about balance, as long as they have the possibility of having an advantage over other people that don't realize just how OP "thing X" is.

I found this post by @Masel92 in another thread about the weapon rng grind.

Masel92 wrote: »

Traits are the real problem. Balance traits and this problem goes away.
I'll post you a suggestion that I keep making (this hay to be like the 100th time):

Precise up to 15% (or 10% crit chance and an 8% crit damage multiplier), nirnhoned to 33%, sharpened and defending remain the same or become 25%. Powered gives healing done and significantly buffs light and heavy attack damage to make it effective in weaving builds. Charged increases chance for status effects and doubles their effectiveness and duration (this would be cool in both PvE and PvP). Decisive reduces ultimate cost in addition to the current buff to ultimate gained. Prosperous buffs gold gained and increases the item drop chance for rare items to make it useful in farming overland sets. Training remains as it is. Infused applies to poisons as well to make it worth using on dd characters and PvP.

As far as making other traits grant more utility, I'm all for that.

But if we focus simply on the traits that benefit damage dealers, isn't it simpler to change revert the one trait they broke when they meddled with traits, rather than changing everything else?

People already complain about the damage creep that comes with CP cap being raised every patch, why is everyone so afraid of a nerf to a single trait?
Besides, if Sharpened gets nerfed to be on par with Precise and Nirnhoned, how is that in any way different than buffing Precise and Nirnhoned (and then every other trait to compensate)?

Eh, next update I'm losing the stun off my primary cc, 21% from my execute, and ~25% uptime on my sustain set while gaining around 2% on my damage constellation. I don't want to deal with another 20% nerf on top of that.

Sooooo... because they finally realized RO was overpowered, they should leave other overpowered thing in the game just for the sake of Templars?

"You" won't be losing anything if a trait gets nerfed, because traits are global, it's not like this would nerf your particular class further.

Point being it isn't just a simple nerf to one trait in a vacuum. Elements and mechanics are interconected.

We are talking about a primary skill of the magicka side of the class that is, along with another primary skill, getting nerfed without other skills being brought up to compensate. So this requires looking outside the class for ways to close the gap. It doesn't matter if trait changes are global if classes aren't properly balanced, and we're talking both internally as well as externally. (I will note for instance, stamplars are getting a little help next update.)

If sharpen only comes down, that just means it takes longer to kill everything, which I think necessities rebalance of health and boss resistance in things like vet dungeons, trials and vMA.

You do realize not everyone actually uses sharpened?
Just look at the poll to realize how many people actually believe Precise is a valid second best option.
And if people using Precise can clear content now, why do you think it will be the end of the world if sharpened gets down to Precise's levels?

Next: my proposed solution is to revert it to a percentage trait, but slightly different than before.
You can see it here, in this graph:


So, if sharpened was to be reworked into "20% resistance penetration", it would still be better than Precise in PvP. Actually, it will be even better than it is today.
It will be still better than Precise while doing solo PvE content, since an average Joe does not really apply debuffs while questing.
It will be just as good as Precise in an group environment where basic debuffs like Minor Fracture and Breach are applied.
And finally, in a trial environment Precise would finally get to outperform it.

Note that magicka users will (in this scenario) most likely gravitate to Precise more than stamina users because they have a penetration passive in the Light Armor skill tree, which makes Precise slightly better for magicka character in group dungeons, while stamina characters still slightly outperform in Sharpened.

Now THAT is balance!
Not this ponypoop.

ArchMikem

Why can't you just combine the Sharpened Staff with the Divines armor? That would be the best possible result right?

Dubhliam

ArchMikem wrote: »

Why can't you just combine the Sharpened Staff with the Divines armor? That would be the best possible result right?

This discussion is not about finding the best DPS combination, it is already well known which one it is.

This discussion is about balancing traits, since ZOS keeps calling this update a "balance update".

driosketch

Dubhliam wrote: »

driosketch wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

driosketch wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

driosketch wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Can't see the forest because of all the tree's.

It's 9988 DPS with precise + divines
against 11487 DPS with sharpened + prosperous.

Although, these DPS numbers in the video should not be taken as strict as the charts.
I made this video just to support the numbers from my testing before, where the numbers in the charts were derived from a simple excel formula.

The charts are (more) accurate.

Actually referring to a different prolific poster on this thread. There is no doubt behind the state of weapon traits.

The champion race horse has been hobbled and is still beating the competition. Yet people complain that the winner being hobbled makes the race invalid.

My mistake, I thought you were talking about the video.

Yeah, it's sad to see the only discussion being made here is the one where one individual is trying to disqualify the testing due to different parameters being tested at the same time.

Where are the comments on bringing balance?
Where are the comments on the proposed solution (percentage based penetration)?
Where are the comments on why so many players voted for Precis + Divines?

Seems a lot of people simply don't care about balance, as long as they have the possibility of having an advantage over other people that don't realize just how OP "thing X" is.

I found this post by @Masel92 in another thread about the weapon rng grind.

Masel92 wrote: »

Traits are the real problem. Balance traits and this problem goes away.
I'll post you a suggestion that I keep making (this hay to be like the 100th time):

Precise up to 15% (or 10% crit chance and an 8% crit damage multiplier), nirnhoned to 33%, sharpened and defending remain the same or become 25%. Powered gives healing done and significantly buffs light and heavy attack damage to make it effective in weaving builds. Charged increases chance for status effects and doubles their effectiveness and duration (this would be cool in both PvE and PvP). Decisive reduces ultimate cost in addition to the current buff to ultimate gained. Prosperous buffs gold gained and increases the item drop chance for rare items to make it useful in farming overland sets. Training remains as it is. Infused applies to poisons as well to make it worth using on dd characters and PvP.

As far as making other traits grant more utility, I'm all for that.

But if we focus simply on the traits that benefit damage dealers, isn't it simpler to change revert the one trait they broke when they meddled with traits, rather than changing everything else?

People already complain about the damage creep that comes with CP cap being raised every patch, why is everyone so afraid of a nerf to a single trait?
Besides, if Sharpened gets nerfed to be on par with Precise and Nirnhoned, how is that in any way different than buffing Precise and Nirnhoned (and then every other trait to compensate)?

Eh, next update I'm losing the stun off my primary cc, 21% from my execute, and ~25% uptime on my sustain set while gaining around 2% on my damage constellation. I don't want to deal with another 20% nerf on top of that.

Sooooo... because they finally realized RO was overpowered, they should leave other overpowered thing in the game just for the sake of Templars?

"You" won't be losing anything if a trait gets nerfed, because traits are global, it's not like this would nerf your particular class further.

Point being it isn't just a simple nerf to one trait in a vacuum. Elements and mechanics are interconected.

We are talking about a primary skill of the magicka side of the class that is, along with another primary skill, getting nerfed without other skills being brought up to compensate. So this requires looking outside the class for ways to close the gap. It doesn't matter if trait changes are global if classes aren't properly balanced, and we're talking both internally as well as externally. (I will note for instance, stamplars are getting a little help next update.)

If sharpen only comes down, that just means it takes longer to kill everything, which I think necessities rebalance of health and boss resistance in things like vet dungeons, trials and vMA.

You do realize not everyone actually uses sharpened?
Just look at the poll to realize how many people actually believe Precise is a valid second best option.
And if people using Precise can clear content now, why do you think it will be the end of the world if sharpened gets down to Precise's levels?

Next: my proposed solution is to revert it to a percentage trait, but slightly different than before.
You can see it here, in this graph:


So, if sharpened was to be reworked into "20% resistance penetration", it would still be better than Precise in PvP. Actually, it will be even better than it is today.
It will be still better than Precise while doing solo PvE content, since an average Joe does not really apply debuffs while questing.
It will be just as good as Precise in an group environment where basic debuffs like Minor Fracture and Breach are applied.
And finally, in a trial environment Precise would finally get to outperform it.

Note that magicka users will (in this scenario) most likely gravitate to Precise more than stamina users because they have a penetration passive in the Light Armor skill tree, which makes Precise slightly better for magicka character in group dungeons, while stamina characters still slightly outperform in Sharpened.

Now THAT is balance!
Not this ponypoop.

You have no idea what builds or content those players are running.

Anyone can do the solo PvE stuff, hell you can solo some normal dungeons without a main-hand weapon. This discussion only matters with regard to the end game content. It would of course still be better in pvp, most of the good players are in impenetrable anyways, and now the heavy armour meta is out there. Actually, in this case I wouldn't mind if it went back to percentage, still for trials, ect. I'd like to see precise buffed. That green line should intersect the red line where it crosses the yellow. And what about nirnhoned?

ArchMikem wrote: »

Why can't you just combine the Sharpened Staff with the Divines armor? That would be the best possible result right?

Heh, you try to give the OP the discussion they're looking for...

Dubhliam

driosketch wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

driosketch wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

driosketch wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

driosketch wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Can't see the forest because of all the tree's.

It's 9988 DPS with precise + divines
against 11487 DPS with sharpened + prosperous.

Although, these DPS numbers in the video should not be taken as strict as the charts.
I made this video just to support the numbers from my testing before, where the numbers in the charts were derived from a simple excel formula.

The charts are (more) accurate.

Actually referring to a different prolific poster on this thread. There is no doubt behind the state of weapon traits.

The champion race horse has been hobbled and is still beating the competition. Yet people complain that the winner being hobbled makes the race invalid.

My mistake, I thought you were talking about the video.

Yeah, it's sad to see the only discussion being made here is the one where one individual is trying to disqualify the testing due to different parameters being tested at the same time.

Where are the comments on bringing balance?
Where are the comments on the proposed solution (percentage based penetration)?
Where are the comments on why so many players voted for Precis + Divines?

Seems a lot of people simply don't care about balance, as long as they have the possibility of having an advantage over other people that don't realize just how OP "thing X" is.

I found this post by @Masel92 in another thread about the weapon rng grind.

Masel92 wrote: »

Traits are the real problem. Balance traits and this problem goes away.
I'll post you a suggestion that I keep making (this hay to be like the 100th time):

Precise up to 15% (or 10% crit chance and an 8% crit damage multiplier), nirnhoned to 33%, sharpened and defending remain the same or become 25%. Powered gives healing done and significantly buffs light and heavy attack damage to make it effective in weaving builds. Charged increases chance for status effects and doubles their effectiveness and duration (this would be cool in both PvE and PvP). Decisive reduces ultimate cost in addition to the current buff to ultimate gained. Prosperous buffs gold gained and increases the item drop chance for rare items to make it useful in farming overland sets. Training remains as it is. Infused applies to poisons as well to make it worth using on dd characters and PvP.

As far as making other traits grant more utility, I'm all for that.

But if we focus simply on the traits that benefit damage dealers, isn't it simpler to change revert the one trait they broke when they meddled with traits, rather than changing everything else?

People already complain about the damage creep that comes with CP cap being raised every patch, why is everyone so afraid of a nerf to a single trait?
Besides, if Sharpened gets nerfed to be on par with Precise and Nirnhoned, how is that in any way different than buffing Precise and Nirnhoned (and then every other trait to compensate)?

Eh, next update I'm losing the stun off my primary cc, 21% from my execute, and ~25% uptime on my sustain set while gaining around 2% on my damage constellation. I don't want to deal with another 20% nerf on top of that.

Sooooo... because they finally realized RO was overpowered, they should leave other overpowered thing in the game just for the sake of Templars?

"You" won't be losing anything if a trait gets nerfed, because traits are global, it's not like this would nerf your particular class further.

Point being it isn't just a simple nerf to one trait in a vacuum. Elements and mechanics are interconected.

We are talking about a primary skill of the magicka side of the class that is, along with another primary skill, getting nerfed without other skills being brought up to compensate. So this requires looking outside the class for ways to close the gap. It doesn't matter if trait changes are global if classes aren't properly balanced, and we're talking both internally as well as externally. (I will note for instance, stamplars are getting a little help next update.)

If sharpen only comes down, that just means it takes longer to kill everything, which I think necessities rebalance of health and boss resistance in things like vet dungeons, trials and vMA.

You do realize not everyone actually uses sharpened?
Just look at the poll to realize how many people actually believe Precise is a valid second best option.
And if people using Precise can clear content now, why do you think it will be the end of the world if sharpened gets down to Precise's levels?

Next: my proposed solution is to revert it to a percentage trait, but slightly different than before.
You can see it here, in this graph:


So, if sharpened was to be reworked into "20% resistance penetration", it would still be better than Precise in PvP. Actually, it will be even better than it is today.
It will be still better than Precise while doing solo PvE content, since an average Joe does not really apply debuffs while questing.
It will be just as good as Precise in an group environment where basic debuffs like Minor Fracture and Breach are applied.
And finally, in a trial environment Precise would finally get to outperform it.

Note that magicka users will (in this scenario) most likely gravitate to Precise more than stamina users because they have a penetration passive in the Light Armor skill tree, which makes Precise slightly better for magicka character in group dungeons, while stamina characters still slightly outperform in Sharpened.

Now THAT is balance!
Not this ponypoop.

You have no idea what builds or content those players are running.

Anyone can do the solo PvE stuff, hell you can solo some normal dungeons without a main-hand weapon. This discussion only matters with regard to the end game content. It would of course still be better in pvp, most of the good players are in impenetrable anyways, and now the heavy armour meta is out there. Actually, in this case I wouldn't mind if it went back to percentage, still for trials, ect. I'd like to see precise buffed. That green line should intersect the red line where it crosses the yellow. And what about nirnhoned?

ArchMikem wrote: »

Why can't you just combine the Sharpened Staff with the Divines armor? That would be the best possible result right?

Heh, you try to give the OP the discussion they're looking for...

I strongly disagree this discussion only matters with regard to end game.
It matters in the overall balance.
No content is not impacted with this imbalance.

Both Precise and Nirnhoned are balanced in my opinion.
If we take out Sharpened from the equation, then Nirnhoned is an obvious choice for PvP build, while Precise in the obvious choice for PvE builds.
Meaning both have their place in the game, and cater to a specific playstyle.

If Precise gets buffed, you need to buff Nirn. If those two get buffed, you need to get all other traits in line with it.
Where does it end?
There are too many changes that you would want to do in an endless cascade of changes.

There is one simple solution. Revert Sharpened to percentages.
Done. Easy.

driosketch

Dubhliam wrote: »

driosketch wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

driosketch wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

driosketch wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

driosketch wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Can't see the forest because of all the tree's.

It's 9988 DPS with precise + divines
against 11487 DPS with sharpened + prosperous.

Although, these DPS numbers in the video should not be taken as strict as the charts.
I made this video just to support the numbers from my testing before, where the numbers in the charts were derived from a simple excel formula.

The charts are (more) accurate.

Actually referring to a different prolific poster on this thread. There is no doubt behind the state of weapon traits.

The champion race horse has been hobbled and is still beating the competition. Yet people complain that the winner being hobbled makes the race invalid.

My mistake, I thought you were talking about the video.

Yeah, it's sad to see the only discussion being made here is the one where one individual is trying to disqualify the testing due to different parameters being tested at the same time.

Where are the comments on bringing balance?
Where are the comments on the proposed solution (percentage based penetration)?
Where are the comments on why so many players voted for Precis + Divines?

Seems a lot of people simply don't care about balance, as long as they have the possibility of having an advantage over other people that don't realize just how OP "thing X" is.

I found this post by @Masel92 in another thread about the weapon rng grind.

Masel92 wrote: »

Traits are the real problem. Balance traits and this problem goes away.
I'll post you a suggestion that I keep making (this hay to be like the 100th time):

Precise up to 15% (or 10% crit chance and an 8% crit damage multiplier), nirnhoned to 33%, sharpened and defending remain the same or become 25%. Powered gives healing done and significantly buffs light and heavy attack damage to make it effective in weaving builds. Charged increases chance for status effects and doubles their effectiveness and duration (this would be cool in both PvE and PvP). Decisive reduces ultimate cost in addition to the current buff to ultimate gained. Prosperous buffs gold gained and increases the item drop chance for rare items to make it useful in farming overland sets. Training remains as it is. Infused applies to poisons as well to make it worth using on dd characters and PvP.

As far as making other traits grant more utility, I'm all for that.

But if we focus simply on the traits that benefit damage dealers, isn't it simpler to change revert the one trait they broke when they meddled with traits, rather than changing everything else?

People already complain about the damage creep that comes with CP cap being raised every patch, why is everyone so afraid of a nerf to a single trait?
Besides, if Sharpened gets nerfed to be on par with Precise and Nirnhoned, how is that in any way different than buffing Precise and Nirnhoned (and then every other trait to compensate)?

Eh, next update I'm losing the stun off my primary cc, 21% from my execute, and ~25% uptime on my sustain set while gaining around 2% on my damage constellation. I don't want to deal with another 20% nerf on top of that.

Sooooo... because they finally realized RO was overpowered, they should leave other overpowered thing in the game just for the sake of Templars?

"You" won't be losing anything if a trait gets nerfed, because traits are global, it's not like this would nerf your particular class further.

Point being it isn't just a simple nerf to one trait in a vacuum. Elements and mechanics are interconected.

We are talking about a primary skill of the magicka side of the class that is, along with another primary skill, getting nerfed without other skills being brought up to compensate. So this requires looking outside the class for ways to close the gap. It doesn't matter if trait changes are global if classes aren't properly balanced, and we're talking both internally as well as externally. (I will note for instance, stamplars are getting a little help next update.)

If sharpen only comes down, that just means it takes longer to kill everything, which I think necessities rebalance of health and boss resistance in things like vet dungeons, trials and vMA.

You do realize not everyone actually uses sharpened?
Just look at the poll to realize how many people actually believe Precise is a valid second best option.
And if people using Precise can clear content now, why do you think it will be the end of the world if sharpened gets down to Precise's levels?

Next: my proposed solution is to revert it to a percentage trait, but slightly different than before.
You can see it here, in this graph:


So, if sharpened was to be reworked into "20% resistance penetration", it would still be better than Precise in PvP. Actually, it will be even better than it is today.
It will be still better than Precise while doing solo PvE content, since an average Joe does not really apply debuffs while questing.
It will be just as good as Precise in an group environment where basic debuffs like Minor Fracture and Breach are applied.
And finally, in a trial environment Precise would finally get to outperform it.

Note that magicka users will (in this scenario) most likely gravitate to Precise more than stamina users because they have a penetration passive in the Light Armor skill tree, which makes Precise slightly better for magicka character in group dungeons, while stamina characters still slightly outperform in Sharpened.

Now THAT is balance!
Not this ponypoop.

You have no idea what builds or content those players are running.

Anyone can do the solo PvE stuff, hell you can solo some normal dungeons without a main-hand weapon. This discussion only matters with regard to the end game content. It would of course still be better in pvp, most of the good players are in impenetrable anyways, and now the heavy armour meta is out there. Actually, in this case I wouldn't mind if it went back to percentage, still for trials, ect. I'd like to see precise buffed. That green line should intersect the red line where it crosses the yellow. And what about nirnhoned?

ArchMikem wrote: »

Why can't you just combine the Sharpened Staff with the Divines armor? That would be the best possible result right?

Heh, you try to give the OP the discussion they're looking for...

I strongly disagree this discussion only matters with regard to end game.
It matters in the overall balance.
No content is not impacted with this imbalance.

Both Precise and Nirnhoned are balanced in my opinion.
If we take out Sharpened from the equation, then Nirnhoned is an obvious choice for PvP build, while Precise in the obvious choice for PvE builds.
Meaning both have their place in the game, and cater to a specific playstyle.

If Precise gets buffed, you need to buff Nirn. If those two get buffed, you need to get all other traits in line with it.
Where does it end?
There are too many changes that you would want to do in an endless cascade of changes.

There is one simple solution. Revert Sharpened to percentages.
Done. Easy.

Vet dungeons, trials, arenas, some world bosses and pvp. What else is there that isn't trivial to complete? And if you don't boost percise so it intersects sharpen at the boss resistance point, nirn too, you haven't solved the issue. You just make the armour trait less trivial, which by the way means divine may need balancing also.

Where does it end? Well there are nine traits, not all of them dps. So powered would instead balance against percise and nirn if it isn't already. I mean, the cascade of changes is literally why zos hasn't successfully balanced things yet.

Edit: actually maybe nirhoned should be slightly above the curve, nirncrux is far rarer to come by and it would give crafters an edge. Conversely, they could add nirn to the drop tables, effectively cutting the weapon grind by 1/3. (I mean, if you hate crafters for some reason. )

Dubhliam

driosketch wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

driosketch wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

driosketch wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

driosketch wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

driosketch wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Can't see the forest because of all the tree's.

It's 9988 DPS with precise + divines
against 11487 DPS with sharpened + prosperous.

Although, these DPS numbers in the video should not be taken as strict as the charts.
I made this video just to support the numbers from my testing before, where the numbers in the charts were derived from a simple excel formula.

The charts are (more) accurate.

Actually referring to a different prolific poster on this thread. There is no doubt behind the state of weapon traits.

The champion race horse has been hobbled and is still beating the competition. Yet people complain that the winner being hobbled makes the race invalid.

My mistake, I thought you were talking about the video.

Yeah, it's sad to see the only discussion being made here is the one where one individual is trying to disqualify the testing due to different parameters being tested at the same time.

Where are the comments on bringing balance?
Where are the comments on the proposed solution (percentage based penetration)?
Where are the comments on why so many players voted for Precis + Divines?

Seems a lot of people simply don't care about balance, as long as they have the possibility of having an advantage over other people that don't realize just how OP "thing X" is.

I found this post by @Masel92 in another thread about the weapon rng grind.

Masel92 wrote: »

Traits are the real problem. Balance traits and this problem goes away.
I'll post you a suggestion that I keep making (this hay to be like the 100th time):

Precise up to 15% (or 10% crit chance and an 8% crit damage multiplier), nirnhoned to 33%, sharpened and defending remain the same or become 25%. Powered gives healing done and significantly buffs light and heavy attack damage to make it effective in weaving builds. Charged increases chance for status effects and doubles their effectiveness and duration (this would be cool in both PvE and PvP). Decisive reduces ultimate cost in addition to the current buff to ultimate gained. Prosperous buffs gold gained and increases the item drop chance for rare items to make it useful in farming overland sets. Training remains as it is. Infused applies to poisons as well to make it worth using on dd characters and PvP.

As far as making other traits grant more utility, I'm all for that.

But if we focus simply on the traits that benefit damage dealers, isn't it simpler to change revert the one trait they broke when they meddled with traits, rather than changing everything else?

People already complain about the damage creep that comes with CP cap being raised every patch, why is everyone so afraid of a nerf to a single trait?
Besides, if Sharpened gets nerfed to be on par with Precise and Nirnhoned, how is that in any way different than buffing Precise and Nirnhoned (and then every other trait to compensate)?

Eh, next update I'm losing the stun off my primary cc, 21% from my execute, and ~25% uptime on my sustain set while gaining around 2% on my damage constellation. I don't want to deal with another 20% nerf on top of that.

Sooooo... because they finally realized RO was overpowered, they should leave other overpowered thing in the game just for the sake of Templars?

"You" won't be losing anything if a trait gets nerfed, because traits are global, it's not like this would nerf your particular class further.

Point being it isn't just a simple nerf to one trait in a vacuum. Elements and mechanics are interconected.

We are talking about a primary skill of the magicka side of the class that is, along with another primary skill, getting nerfed without other skills being brought up to compensate. So this requires looking outside the class for ways to close the gap. It doesn't matter if trait changes are global if classes aren't properly balanced, and we're talking both internally as well as externally. (I will note for instance, stamplars are getting a little help next update.)

If sharpen only comes down, that just means it takes longer to kill everything, which I think necessities rebalance of health and boss resistance in things like vet dungeons, trials and vMA.

You do realize not everyone actually uses sharpened?
Just look at the poll to realize how many people actually believe Precise is a valid second best option.
And if people using Precise can clear content now, why do you think it will be the end of the world if sharpened gets down to Precise's levels?

Next: my proposed solution is to revert it to a percentage trait, but slightly different than before.
You can see it here, in this graph:


So, if sharpened was to be reworked into "20% resistance penetration", it would still be better than Precise in PvP. Actually, it will be even better than it is today.
It will be still better than Precise while doing solo PvE content, since an average Joe does not really apply debuffs while questing.
It will be just as good as Precise in an group environment where basic debuffs like Minor Fracture and Breach are applied.
And finally, in a trial environment Precise would finally get to outperform it.

Note that magicka users will (in this scenario) most likely gravitate to Precise more than stamina users because they have a penetration passive in the Light Armor skill tree, which makes Precise slightly better for magicka character in group dungeons, while stamina characters still slightly outperform in Sharpened.

Now THAT is balance!
Not this ponypoop.

You have no idea what builds or content those players are running.

Anyone can do the solo PvE stuff, hell you can solo some normal dungeons without a main-hand weapon. This discussion only matters with regard to the end game content. It would of course still be better in pvp, most of the good players are in impenetrable anyways, and now the heavy armour meta is out there. Actually, in this case I wouldn't mind if it went back to percentage, still for trials, ect. I'd like to see precise buffed. That green line should intersect the red line where it crosses the yellow. And what about nirnhoned?

ArchMikem wrote: »

Why can't you just combine the Sharpened Staff with the Divines armor? That would be the best possible result right?

Heh, you try to give the OP the discussion they're looking for...

I strongly disagree this discussion only matters with regard to end game.
It matters in the overall balance.
No content is not impacted with this imbalance.

Both Precise and Nirnhoned are balanced in my opinion.
If we take out Sharpened from the equation, then Nirnhoned is an obvious choice for PvP build, while Precise in the obvious choice for PvE builds.
Meaning both have their place in the game, and cater to a specific playstyle.

If Precise gets buffed, you need to buff Nirn. If those two get buffed, you need to get all other traits in line with it.
Where does it end?
There are too many changes that you would want to do in an endless cascade of changes.

There is one simple solution. Revert Sharpened to percentages.
Done. Easy.

Vet dungeons, trials, arenas, some world bosses and pvp. What else is there that isn't trivial to complete? And if you don't boost percise so it intersects sharpen at the boss resistance point, nirn too, you haven't solved the issue. You just make the armour trait less trivial, which by the way means divine may need balancing also.

Where does it end? Well there are nine traits, not all of them dps. So powered would instead balance against percise and nirn if it isn't already. I mean, the cascade of changes is literally why zos hasn't successfully balanced things yet.

Edit: actually maybe nirhoned should be slightly above the curve, nirncrux is far rarer to come by and it would give crafters an edge. Conversely, they could add nirn to the drop tables, effectively cutting the weapon grind by 1/3. (I mean, if you hate crafters for some reason. )

In group content 99% of the time bosses don't have max resistances (unless you are that one tank that refuses to use Pierce Armor for taunting).

So, no... Precise should not intersect with Sharpened at 18k resistances.
In a group environment (where tanks actually tank using Pierce Armor), these are the resistances of bosses:

18200 (base res) - 5280 (Major debuff) = 12820 for stamina characters.
Add another 4884 spell penetration from LA passives and you get 7936 for magicka characters.




So, you see: Sharpened is still good in the "average Joe" day to day PvE activity for stamina characters, while Precise takes over for magicka characters, and also in more experienced and organized groups where more than just the basic debuffs are applied.
Sharpened is still king in PvP.

driosketch

Dubhliam wrote: »

driosketch wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

driosketch wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

driosketch wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

driosketch wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

driosketch wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Can't see the forest because of all the tree's.

It's 9988 DPS with precise + divines
against 11487 DPS with sharpened + prosperous.

Although, these DPS numbers in the video should not be taken as strict as the charts.
I made this video just to support the numbers from my testing before, where the numbers in the charts were derived from a simple excel formula.

The charts are (more) accurate.

Actually referring to a different prolific poster on this thread. There is no doubt behind the state of weapon traits.

The champion race horse has been hobbled and is still beating the competition. Yet people complain that the winner being hobbled makes the race invalid.

My mistake, I thought you were talking about the video.

Yeah, it's sad to see the only discussion being made here is the one where one individual is trying to disqualify the testing due to different parameters being tested at the same time.

Where are the comments on bringing balance?
Where are the comments on the proposed solution (percentage based penetration)?
Where are the comments on why so many players voted for Precis + Divines?

Seems a lot of people simply don't care about balance, as long as they have the possibility of having an advantage over other people that don't realize just how OP "thing X" is.

I found this post by @Masel92 in another thread about the weapon rng grind.

Masel92 wrote: »

Traits are the real problem. Balance traits and this problem goes away.
I'll post you a suggestion that I keep making (this hay to be like the 100th time):

Precise up to 15% (or 10% crit chance and an 8% crit damage multiplier), nirnhoned to 33%, sharpened and defending remain the same or become 25%. Powered gives healing done and significantly buffs light and heavy attack damage to make it effective in weaving builds. Charged increases chance for status effects and doubles their effectiveness and duration (this would be cool in both PvE and PvP). Decisive reduces ultimate cost in addition to the current buff to ultimate gained. Prosperous buffs gold gained and increases the item drop chance for rare items to make it useful in farming overland sets. Training remains as it is. Infused applies to poisons as well to make it worth using on dd characters and PvP.

As far as making other traits grant more utility, I'm all for that.

But if we focus simply on the traits that benefit damage dealers, isn't it simpler to change revert the one trait they broke when they meddled with traits, rather than changing everything else?

People already complain about the damage creep that comes with CP cap being raised every patch, why is everyone so afraid of a nerf to a single trait?
Besides, if Sharpened gets nerfed to be on par with Precise and Nirnhoned, how is that in any way different than buffing Precise and Nirnhoned (and then every other trait to compensate)?

Eh, next update I'm losing the stun off my primary cc, 21% from my execute, and ~25% uptime on my sustain set while gaining around 2% on my damage constellation. I don't want to deal with another 20% nerf on top of that.

Sooooo... because they finally realized RO was overpowered, they should leave other overpowered thing in the game just for the sake of Templars?

"You" won't be losing anything if a trait gets nerfed, because traits are global, it's not like this would nerf your particular class further.

Point being it isn't just a simple nerf to one trait in a vacuum. Elements and mechanics are interconected.

We are talking about a primary skill of the magicka side of the class that is, along with another primary skill, getting nerfed without other skills being brought up to compensate. So this requires looking outside the class for ways to close the gap. It doesn't matter if trait changes are global if classes aren't properly balanced, and we're talking both internally as well as externally. (I will note for instance, stamplars are getting a little help next update.)

If sharpen only comes down, that just means it takes longer to kill everything, which I think necessities rebalance of health and boss resistance in things like vet dungeons, trials and vMA.

You do realize not everyone actually uses sharpened?
Just look at the poll to realize how many people actually believe Precise is a valid second best option.
And if people using Precise can clear content now, why do you think it will be the end of the world if sharpened gets down to Precise's levels?

Next: my proposed solution is to revert it to a percentage trait, but slightly different than before.
You can see it here, in this graph:


So, if sharpened was to be reworked into "20% resistance penetration", it would still be better than Precise in PvP. Actually, it will be even better than it is today.
It will be still better than Precise while doing solo PvE content, since an average Joe does not really apply debuffs while questing.
It will be just as good as Precise in an group environment where basic debuffs like Minor Fracture and Breach are applied.
And finally, in a trial environment Precise would finally get to outperform it.

Note that magicka users will (in this scenario) most likely gravitate to Precise more than stamina users because they have a penetration passive in the Light Armor skill tree, which makes Precise slightly better for magicka character in group dungeons, while stamina characters still slightly outperform in Sharpened.

Now THAT is balance!
Not this ponypoop.

You have no idea what builds or content those players are running.

Anyone can do the solo PvE stuff, hell you can solo some normal dungeons without a main-hand weapon. This discussion only matters with regard to the end game content. It would of course still be better in pvp, most of the good players are in impenetrable anyways, and now the heavy armour meta is out there. Actually, in this case I wouldn't mind if it went back to percentage, still for trials, ect. I'd like to see precise buffed. That green line should intersect the red line where it crosses the yellow. And what about nirnhoned?

ArchMikem wrote: »

Why can't you just combine the Sharpened Staff with the Divines armor? That would be the best possible result right?

Heh, you try to give the OP the discussion they're looking for...

I strongly disagree this discussion only matters with regard to end game.
It matters in the overall balance.
No content is not impacted with this imbalance.

Both Precise and Nirnhoned are balanced in my opinion.
If we take out Sharpened from the equation, then Nirnhoned is an obvious choice for PvP build, while Precise in the obvious choice for PvE builds.
Meaning both have their place in the game, and cater to a specific playstyle.

If Precise gets buffed, you need to buff Nirn. If those two get buffed, you need to get all other traits in line with it.
Where does it end?
There are too many changes that you would want to do in an endless cascade of changes.

There is one simple solution. Revert Sharpened to percentages.
Done. Easy.

Vet dungeons, trials, arenas, some world bosses and pvp. What else is there that isn't trivial to complete? And if you don't boost percise so it intersects sharpen at the boss resistance point, nirn too, you haven't solved the issue. You just make the armour trait less trivial, which by the way means divine may need balancing also.

Where does it end? Well there are nine traits, not all of them dps. So powered would instead balance against percise and nirn if it isn't already. I mean, the cascade of changes is literally why zos hasn't successfully balanced things yet.

Edit: actually maybe nirhoned should be slightly above the curve, nirncrux is far rarer to come by and it would give crafters an edge. Conversely, they could add nirn to the drop tables, effectively cutting the weapon grind by 1/3. (I mean, if you hate crafters for some reason. )

In group content 99% of the time bosses don't have max resistances (unless you are that one tank that refuses to use Pierce Armor for taunting).

So, no... Precise should not intersect with Sharpened at 18k resistances.
In a group environment (where tanks actually tank using Pierce Armor), these are the resistances of bosses:

18200 (base res) - 5280 (Major debuff) = 12820 for stamina characters.
Add another 4884 spell penetration from LA passives and you get 7936 for magicka characters.




So, you see: Sharpened is still good in the "average Joe" day to day PvE activity for stamina characters, while Precise takes over for magicka characters, and also in more experienced and organized groups where more than just the basic debuffs are applied.
Sharpened is still king in PvP.

That looks like barely 100 more dps for a magicka build, and this after full divines TBS with Theif and Shadow applied, correct? Also the tank has to absolutely be using peirced armor. You're not really fixing the issue of sharpen is king. You are only watering it down while pigeon holing the rest of the builds.

Dubhliam

driosketch wrote: »

That looks like barely 100 more dps for a magicka build, and this after full divines TBS with Theif and Shadow applied, correct? Also the tank has to absolutely be using peirced armor. You're not really fixing the issue of sharpen is king. You are only watering it down while pigeon holing the rest of the builds.

The DPS numbers in the chart here are examples.
The base DPS in that particular chart was 10000, and the graph was derived from that.

And I don't understand...
Isn't pigeon holing when you force everyone to use only one thing?
...like the game is forcing everyone to use Sharpened right now?

driosketch

Dubhliam wrote: »

driosketch wrote: »

That looks like barely 100 more dps for a magicka build, and this after full divines TBS with Theif and Shadow applied, correct? Also the tank has to absolutely be using peirced armor. You're not really fixing the issue of sharpen is king. You are only watering it down while pigeon holing the rest of the builds.

The DPS numbers in the chart here are examples.
The base DPS in that particular chart was 10000, and the graph was derived from that.

And I don't understand...
Isn't pigeon holing when you force everyone to use only one thing?
...like the game is forcing everyone to use Sharpened right now?

Yes, that was my point. You're only trading one for another.