Maintenance for the week of December 15:
· [COMPLETE] PC/Mac: NA and EU megaservers for maintenance – December 15, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EST (17:00 UTC)
· [COMPLETE] Xbox: NA and EU megaservers for maintenance – December 15, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EST (17:00 UTC)
· [COMPLETE] PlayStation®: NA and EU megaservers for maintenance – December 15, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EST (17:00 UTC)
· [COMPLETE] PC/Mac: NA and EU megaservers for maintenance – December 15, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EST (17:00 UTC)
· [COMPLETE] Xbox: NA and EU megaservers for maintenance – December 15, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EST (17:00 UTC)
· [COMPLETE] PlayStation®: NA and EU megaservers for maintenance – December 15, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EST (17:00 UTC)
Twice Born Wars: Precise+Divines vs Sharpened+Prosperous?
-
montiferus✭✭✭✭✭Precise + Divines[
THAT gets your point about sharpened being wildly overpowered communicated to the audience!
Actually for those of us who know how the game actually works understood the premise OP made from jump street.
Some people just have a higher mental resistance that requires more "penetration".12 -
Cryptical✭✭✭✭✭
✭montiferus wrote: »[
THAT gets your point about sharpened being wildly overpowered communicated to the audience!
Actually for those of us who know how the game actually works understood the premise OP made from jump street.
Some people just have a higher mental resistance that requires more "penetration".
Yeah, and go back and read my posts again. I always focused on the stumbling way the OP fumbled in the message.
In fact, go back to page 2, and you will see me say:
"I see what you are trying to do - illustrate how dominant the sharpened trait is - but you screwed up the impact of the message by starting out with crit armor for the precise weapon and an indifferent armor for the sharpened. You should have saved that for later, to be able to say something like 'even changing to twice born so you can get a mundus to buff both crit chance and damage does not match sharpened'."
Looks like I was always in the OP's camp. Anything to say about that?Xbox NA0 -
Dubhliam✭✭✭✭✭
✭Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »Sooooo, I should use sharpened swords with TBS divines? How is crit only 64% though? I run TBS plus precise and my crit is either 74% with vigour or 82% with evil hunter...
Divines and precise form an extra buff to crit that doesn't exist with precise alone or divines alone.
Since part of the topic is how precise performs, that means divines has an impact that gives a buff inconsistently.
Is this what you wanted?
Will this finally make you shut up?
Go troll some other thread.
THAT gets your point about sharpened being wildly overpowered communicated to the audience!
THAT illustrates just how much of a gap exists between sharpened and precise, because it isn't being muddied by a completely irrelevant column.
Demanding some consistency when comparing A to B isn't trolling. It's like 2nd grade science class. If you couldn't see that...
I figured players have the mental capacity to disregard a single column from a very simple graph.
I guess I was wrong.
And no, this is exactly the point...
to put Sharpened power into perspective, you have to look at other things to compare, not just traits.
Such as DPS gained from damage gear traits.
Such as a comparison with an item set's 5th bonus.
Because people would come here advocating for Precise and Nirnhoned to be buffed which is clearly not the solution.
Perspective.
A 1liter pitcher is larger than a 0,5liter glass.
Is the solution to make all drink containers closer to the 1liter capacity?
You need to take a look at the bottle capacity of your beer to decide.
Besides, if I simply asked: which is better: Sharpened or Divines, the votes would (should) unanimously be for Sharpened.
Because it is common knowledge.
Yet nobody knows exactly how much more powerful this trait is.
This graph I made should put this into perspective.Edited by Dubhliam on January 11, 2017 9:08PM5 -
Minute_Waltz✭✭✭Can we have a graph on this comparison with standard raiding conditions? Major minor breach crusher two alkosh with ~1k penetration in cp? I wanna see how OP sharpened/prosp is with 18k existing penetration please over precise divine.0 -
driosketch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »Sooooo, I should use sharpened swords with TBS divines? How is crit only 64% though? I run TBS plus precise and my crit is either 74% with vigour or 82% with evil hunter...
Divines and precise form an extra buff to crit that doesn't exist with precise alone or divines alone.
Since part of the topic is how precise performs, that means divines has an impact that gives a buff inconsistently.
Is this what you wanted?
Will this finally make you shut up?
Go troll some other thread.
I understood your point OP.
Criticism of the double variables is only valid if: sharpen+devine > precise+devine > sharpen+prosperous
Since precise in is lower is both cases, the comparison is not hurt. On the contrary, it is eye opening how much one piece of gear with the best trait out performs the second best+7 pieces of the othe best trait gear.Main: Drio Azul ~ DC, Redguard, Healer/Magicka Templar ~ NA-PC
●The Psijic Order●The Sidekick Order●Great House Hlaalu●Bal-Busters●3 -
Vaoh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Sharpened + ProsperousBobby_V_Rockit wrote: »Sooooo, I should use sharpened swords with TBS divines? How is crit only 64% though? I run TBS plus precise and my crit is either 74% with vigour or 82% with evil hunter...
Divines and precise form an extra buff to crit that doesn't exist with precise alone or divines alone.
Since part of the topic is how precise performs, that means divines has an impact that gives a buff inconsistently.
Is this what you wanted?
Will this finally make you shut up?
Go troll some other thread.
I applaud you for following through and taking the time to help out that guy. Probably wouldn't have the patience to do it myself!
Anyway, we really should push for both a Sharpened nerf and a Nirnhoned buff. There needs to be a reason for all three to be useful for DPS in separate scenarios, even if only marginally better.
First and foremost, Sharpened truly needs to be toned down. The value of penetration it provides is crazy high.Edited by Vaoh on January 11, 2017 9:59PM6 -
Dubhliam✭✭✭✭✭
✭Minute_Waltz wrote: »Can we have a graph on this comparison with standard raiding conditions? Major minor breach crusher two alkosh with ~1k penetration in cp? I wanna see how OP sharpened/prosp is with 18k existing penetration please over precise divine.
I am going to ignore the sarcasm and point to the fact that this testing was done on the PTS.
So, since I cannot form a trial on the PTS, the answer to your question is:
NO.
I can, however, point you to a graph that I have previously made (live server values) where you draw your conclusions based on how many resistances you think the target has.
Do your own math.1 -
Danksta✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Dagoth_Rac wrote: »Is Sharpened in ESO better than Bo Jackson in Tecmo Bowl?!
I say it's a tie.BawKinTackWarDs PS4/NA0 -
Minute_Waltz✭✭✭Minute_Waltz wrote: »Can we have a graph on this comparison with standard raiding conditions? Major minor breach crusher two alkosh with ~1k penetration in cp? I wanna see how OP sharpened/prosp is with 18k existing penetration please over precise divine.
I am going to ignore the sarcasm and point to the fact that this testing was done on the PTS.
So, since I cannot form a trial on the PTS, the answer to your question is:
NO.
I can, however, point you to a graph that I have previously made (live server values) where you draw your conclusions based on how many resistances you think the target has.
Do your own math.
Well I guess my point is each trait has their own advantages and disadvantages, at full or close to full penetration, you can argue even charged/decisive is more useful than a sharpened. The trait isnt the problem, problem is with armor pen cap is hard to reach and therefore 90% people are forced to use sharpened. IF the bosses are at 12k res, then you can definitely see people complain about how sharpenend is a worthless trait.
Edit: Also I believe your graph is to the one end of the extreme, where debuff is minimal and thus sharpened trait is being ultlized to the full extent, in such cases even if the penetration of 5.2k is halved, it would still be superior to precise. For example in your graph testing/calculation, sharpened is hypothetically 10% better than precise, and again hypothetically in the other extreme where we have full debuff and precise is 10% better than sharpened, then we do actually have a perfectly balanced trait.
(I understand this is NOT the case at the moment but it can be balanced if zos tries to)Edited by Minute_Waltz on January 11, 2017 10:45PM1 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Sharpened + ProsperousBobby_V_Rockit wrote: »Sooooo, I should use sharpened swords with TBS divines? How is crit only 64% though? I run TBS plus precise and my crit is either 74% with vigour or 82% with evil hunter...
As stated, Sharp is the answer, even with TBS. On a stam toon, Daggers>Swords currently. This could change next patch as crit is being nerfed, but I dont think it will.Dagoth_Rac wrote: »Is Sharpened in ESO better than Bo Jackson in Tecmo Bowl?!
Actually it is. If I play Tecmo Bowl against someone with Bo Jackson on their team, I still have a shot at beating them (I rule at Tecmo Bowl
). If I am trying to out DPS anybody that knows what they are doing and they have sharp weapons and I dont, I am gonna lose. Bad... Edited by Oreyn_Bearclaw on January 11, 2017 10:42PM0 -
Dubhliam✭✭✭✭✭
✭Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »Sooooo, I should use sharpened swords with TBS divines? How is crit only 64% though? I run TBS plus precise and my crit is either 74% with vigour or 82% with evil hunter...
Divines and precise form an extra buff to crit that doesn't exist with precise alone or divines alone.
Since part of the topic is how precise performs, that means divines has an impact that gives a buff inconsistently.
Is this what you wanted?
Will this finally make you shut up?
Go troll some other thread.
I applaud you for following through and taking the time to help out that guy. Probably wouldn't have the patience to do it myself!
Anyway, we really should push for both a Sharpened nerf and a Nirnhoned buff. There needs to be a reason for all three to be useful for DPS in separate scenarios, even if only marginally better.
First and foremost, Sharpened truly needs to be toned down. The value of penetration it provides is crazy high.
Actually, the Nirnhoned testing was added here just for another comparison, the real testing was aimed at comparing Precise and Sharpened (as the title suggests).
Therefore, I did my best to rig the game in favor of Precise, focusing on Critical, while ignoring Spell Power.
The setup was 3xJulianos, 3xDestructive Mage and 5xTwice Born Star. (this is the best I could come up with using a template character, since EU is not on the PTS yet)
In the initial testing I haven't applied the Major Sorcery buff which directly benefits Nirnhoned.
So, I made another round of testing, this time using Spell Power potions to help Nirnhoned out.
Here are the results:
As you can see, if compared to the previous graph, Nirnhoned got slightly better, but nothing much has changed, really. Precise still outperforms it.
I am however convinced that Nirnhoned has a usefulness in builds that don't focus on Critical as much as the current meta dictates, or at least it would have if Sharpened wasn't so OP.
This is, however, a matter of a wholly different testing.1 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Sharpened + ProsperousBobby_V_Rockit wrote: »Sooooo, I should use sharpened swords with TBS divines? How is crit only 64% though? I run TBS plus precise and my crit is either 74% with vigour or 82% with evil hunter...
Divines and precise form an extra buff to crit that doesn't exist with precise alone or divines alone.
Since part of the topic is how precise performs, that means divines has an impact that gives a buff inconsistently.
Is this what you wanted?
Will this finally make you shut up?
Go troll some other thread.
I applaud you for following through and taking the time to help out that guy. Probably wouldn't have the patience to do it myself!
Anyway, we really should push for both a Sharpened nerf and a Nirnhoned buff. There needs to be a reason for all three to be useful for DPS in separate scenarios, even if only marginally better.
First and foremost, Sharpened truly needs to be toned down. The value of penetration it provides is crazy high.
Actually, the Nirnhoned testing was added here just for another comparison, the real testing was aimed at comparing Precise and Sharpened (as the title suggests).
Therefore, I did my best to rig the game in favor of Precise, focusing on Critical, while ignoring Spell Power.
The setup was 3xJulianos, 3xDestructive Mage and 5xTwice Born Star. (this is the best I could come up with using a template character, since EU is not on the PTS yet)
In the initial testing I haven't applied the Major Sorcery buff which directly benefits Nirnhoned.
So, I made another round of testing, this time using Spell Power potions to help Nirnhoned out.
Here are the results:
As you can see, if compared to the previous graph, Nirnhoned got slightly better, but nothing much has changed, really. Precise still outperforms it.
I am however convinced that Nirnhoned has a usefulness in builds that don't focus on Critical as much as the current meta dictates, or at least it would have if Sharpened wasn't so OP.
This is, however, a matter of a wholly different testing.
Nirnhoned is BIS if dueling a shield stacking sorc. Otherwise, it's kinda trash (unless you get a nirn from deconstructing it)...3 -
Dagoth_Rac✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I should note that I think Sharpened should be the best DPS trait. It is a trait that solely affects damage. Healing and utility skills gain nothing from Sharpened, whereas Precise and Nirnhoned will boost healing and utility in addition to damage. So it makes sense for Sharpened to be best DPS trait.
But Sharpened should not be this much better. Especially when you pretty much have to upgrade weapons to gold due to the extreme (and also questionable!) base damage increase of 200 from purple CP160 to gold CP160. No DPS wants to waste 8 gold upgrade mats on Precise or Nirnhoned. But it is not like you can get by with a purple Precise weapon while you wait to get a Sharpened weapon. If gold Precise/Nirnhoned weapon severely underperforms gold Sharpened, purple Precise/Nirnhoned is much, much worse. I am using a purple reinforced monster shoulder while I wait for RNG to give me a Divines shoulder, which I will upgrade to gold. But purple shoulders have minimal penalty compared to gold shoulders. You cannot do that with weapons, though. Purple weapons are a big DPS drop compared to gold.
Being locked into upgrading all weapons to gold makes it even more frustrating that there is only one choice for weapon trait if you want to have competitive Trials DPS.3 -
Bobby_V_Rockit✭✭✭✭✭
✭Sharpened + ProsperousWonder if the gap will get bigger or smaller after the proc set crit nerf0 -
montiferus✭✭✭✭✭Precise + DivinesIf the current changes in PTS stands the gap will increase since you will not only be losing crit from proc sets like Krag'h, Velidreth, Grothdar, etc. but also losing crit damage from the minor and major force nerfs. If you look at his charts you can see precise starts inching up a bit as crit damage increases. Still not equal but it improves. With these crit nerfs the gap will only widen.
This is what frustrates me so much with ZOS in general. They consistently display a lack of understanding with regard to how the changes they institute affect other aspects of the game. I think "A Sound of Thunder" should be required reading at Zenimax. It is pretty ridiculous that they have so many traits that are utterly worthless. What's the point? What value does it bring to the game when you have only 1 item that is clearly better than all the others. Either they did this purposely to get people to endlessly grind for BIS gear or they were too clueless to realize how imbalanced they made the system with this change. Either way it is absurd.
Also I love the comments people are making about all the "debuffs" that go on in trials/dungeons. I would love to see a stat on the amount and percentage of armor stripping that actually goes on. My guess is with exception of the very top guilds it isn't as good as you think.2 -
Cryptical✭✭✭✭✭
✭Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »Sooooo, I should use sharpened swords with TBS divines? How is crit only 64% though? I run TBS plus precise and my crit is either 74% with vigour or 82% with evil hunter...
Divines and precise form an extra buff to crit that doesn't exist with precise alone or divines alone.
Since part of the topic is how precise performs, that means divines has an impact that gives a buff inconsistently.
Is this what you wanted?
Will this finally make you shut up?
Go troll some other thread.
I applaud you for following through and taking the time to help out that guy. Probably wouldn't have the patience to do it myself!
Anyway, we really should push for both a Sharpened nerf and a Nirnhoned buff. There needs to be a reason for all three to be useful for DPS in separate scenarios, even if only marginally better.
First and foremost, Sharpened truly needs to be toned down. The value of penetration it provides is crazy high.
Actually, the Nirnhoned testing was added here just for another comparison, the real testing was aimed at comparing Precise and Sharpened (as the title suggests).
Therefore, I did my best to rig the game in favor of Precise, focusing on Critical, while ignoring Spell Power.
The setup was 3xJulianos, 3xDestructive Mage and 5xTwice Born Star. (this is the best I could come up with using a template character, since EU is not on the PTS yet)
My complaint is, and has always been, that the integrity of the evidence is fouled if the data is getting rigged.
That's all. The appearance you give by rigging it, if you have to cook the data then it looks like you are lying in some way, based just on the insistence of rigging the data. If you gotta fiddle with the game and rig it to tilt in the direction you choose, then why should what you say be trusted to be true - since you rigged the game for the numbers to say what you wanted them to say.
That's only what I was pointing out - that by cooking the books you were making yourself look like you were pulling a con with the numbers. I still don't get why you would intentionally make yourself look untrustworthy by rigging the numbers going into the graph. I figure, if the evidence can stand by itself, then it doesn't need you helping. In fact, helping numbers by rigging them puts them under suspicion because they were rigged. It was a thinly veiled push-poll, obviously intended to send the message that sharpened is over powered, and oddly enough you have been arguing with me to keep the graphs that had smaller differences between sharpened and other options. Oddly enough, the one graph you made in response to my comments was the graph that showed the hugest lead that sharpened has over every other option.
Accurate data doesn't need assistance. Inaccurate data needs to be rigged.
If you want to make yourself appear deceptive by your action of rigging the game, that's your choice to act shady with the data.
Xbox NA0 -
Riejael✭✭✭✭✭My complaint is, and has always been, that the integrity of the evidence is fouled if the data is getting rigged.
Data didn't appear rigged. They took one set of armor/weapon traits and compared it to another. I was able to see that Divines/Precise was inferior to Sharpened/Prosperous. Now if anyone feels the messenger is lying and posted false numbers, they are fully encouraged to show numbers to debate them.
I get that the middle school science teacher in everyone is triggered by the fact a constant wasn't used. But I don't see how pairing Divines with Sharpened will magically reduce the numbers below Prosperous with Sharpened. Anyone confused by that probably isn't at the level of play to be apart of this discussion. Its pretty simple to look at the data collected and come to one's own conclusion. It only took me a minute of reading the thread to get it.
But its a cultural issue people have. They worry about the integrity of the messenger over the integrity of the message itself. A liar giving a true message doesn't make the truth false. The truth is always true.9 -
Dubhliam✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Cryptical
There is no point in simply comparing Sharpened vs Precise, this was done many times.
And Sharpened wins, this is common knowledge.
The point of this test is to put some perspective to the large disparity in power.
Something that even devs don't have it seems.
Because, on paper, Sharpened should reduce resistances by about 8%, while Precise gives 7% more Critical chance.
Pretty similar bonuses, right?
WRONG!3 -
Cryptical✭✭✭✭✭
✭Well, Einstein, which one of your graphs BETTER displays the disparity between sharp and others?
This first graph, which includes you attempting to "rig the game in favor of precise" (your exact words).
Or this second graph, the graph I called for, that does not include your rigging.
See how that gap between sharp + divines is so much further ahead of second place in the graph I called for?Xbox NA0 -
Cryptical✭✭✭✭✭
✭Carbonised wrote: »
Sum total of my participation in this thread:
(Dub swings hard, hits a ground ball down the third baseline, gets on first base)
Me: you know, adjust your stance, maybe your grip, and that ball will fly fly fly.
Dub and others: He knows how to swing a bat, he got on base!
Me: it's not about whether he managed to hit, it's that his hit could use some refinement. A grounder to third is not an awesome goal.
Dub and others: dude, he hit the ball. L2p. Scrub. Salty. Mad cuz bad.
Me: .... Did they read anything?Xbox NA0 -
Reykice✭✭✭✭✭Stop with the nerfs already. Something will always be better, now its sharpened... before it was precise, whatever.
A nerf to sharpened would again nerf everyone... stop asking for it.0 -
driosketch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Carbonised wrote: »
Sum total of my participation in this thread:
(Dub swings hard, hits a ground ball down the third baseline, gets on first base)
Me: you know, adjust your stance, maybe your grip, and that ball will fly fly fly.
Dub and others: He knows how to swing a bat, he got on base!
Me: it's not about whether he managed to hit, it's that his hit could use some refinement. A grounder to third is not an awesome goal.
Dub and others: dude, he hit the ball. L2p. Scrub. Salty. Mad cuz bad.
Me: .... Did they read anything?
Is that what you think is being discussed?
It's more like OP is showing just how much farther this aluminum bat hits the ball over this standard wooden one. Everyone here has swung a few bats in their day, knows the aluminum bat hits harder. But OP, who is right handed, decides to swing the aluminum bat left handed, yet still outperforms the wood bat.
This is more than just a strict experiment. This is done to highlight the disparity of the power gap of one piece of equipment over another compared to the power gap of best stance/armor triats.
PS, maybe if OP.added a bar for precise+prosperous instead of nirn+divine for a nice 2x2, that would get you over your block.Edited by driosketch on January 12, 2017 4:10PMMain: Drio Azul ~ DC, Redguard, Healer/Magicka Templar ~ NA-PC
●The Psijic Order●The Sidekick Order●Great House Hlaalu●Bal-Busters●6 -
dramsb14_ESO✭✭✭This thread has been extremely helpful for me, thank you guys for illustrating these weights.
@Dubhliam
May I ask what are you using to generate those charts?
0 -
AlwaysOnFire✭✭✭✭It has nothing to do with The Data but it always amuses me when I make a "sharpened" destruction or restoration staff. That's a spear. It's called a spear, zenimax.Edited by AlwaysOnFire on January 12, 2017 4:53PM8 -
Dubhliam✭✭✭✭✭
✭dramsb14_ESO wrote: »This thread has been extremely helpful for me, thank you guys for illustrating these weights.
@Dubhliam
May I ask what are you using to generate those charts?
It's quite simple really.
I hit some skills, write down the non crit and crit values of each of them.
Then I add them into the excel chart.
The end DPS result is derived from: (crit_value*crit_chance+noncrit_value*(100-crit_chance)...)/100
This calculation is made for each of the scenarios (since Crit value keeps changing with Force buffs).1 -
Vaoh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Sharpened + ProsperousWell, Einstein, which one of your graphs BETTER displays the disparity between sharp and others?
This first graph, which includes you attempting to "rig the game in favor of precise" (your exact words).
Or this second graph, the graph I called for, that does not include your rigging.
See how that gap between sharp + divines is so much further ahead of second place in the graph I called for?Carbonised wrote: »
Sum total of my participation in this thread:
(Dub swings hard, hits a ground ball down the third baseline, gets on first base)
Me: you know, adjust your stance, maybe your grip, and that ball will fly fly fly.
Dub and others: He knows how to swing a bat, he got on base!
Me: it's not about whether he managed to hit, it's that his hit could use some refinement. A grounder to third is not an awesome goal.
Dub and others: dude, he hit the ball. L2p. Scrub. Salty. Mad cuz bad.
Me: .... Did they read anything?
Are you okay? Everyone here thinks you're in the wrong right now. Js
0
