Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

All I know is the Ebon was a game changer in VMOL HM. Most glass cannon DPS, which you need to be in that fight, just don't quite have enough health to stay alive without the health Buffs from both Ebon and warhorn.

When you have 2 tanks in a trials, there is more than one way to get it done, but one should have Ebon and one should have alkosh. Also we found warden super useful in there as well. Other than that, it's all about how fast you can get your ultimate up, so tavas and dragon are obvious choices.

In solo, I don't believe BIS is a thing for a tank. I prefer, 5 tavas, 5 dragon, as a baseline and swap out the monster set depending on what I am doing.

So then, based on my post above, you could just as easily argue Warden was BiS as Ebon is my point, and in fact Warden is noticeably better in trials where the hard fights require stacking. I can accept "DPS need survival help", but Ebon isn't the only way to do it, and I get annoyed by blind insistence

**EDIT** Two tanks like you have in vMOL certainly make it easier, as 1 ultimate tank and 2 healers can maintain most of the warhorn and you can have a dedicated buff tank

Bloodspawn is ***, check out how much it consistently procs and you will see why. if you're lucky it'll proc twice in a minute on a single boss, which is 30 ult, so you only get an extra warhorn every 8 minutues or so, which means it'll have absolutely no affect on any of the boss fights(assuming you save ur last trashpull ult for boss fights) except the final one, for a whopping 1 extra horn. Warden is ten times better, heck engine guardian is better.

Even though I don't understand why the compare while you can have both at the same time , I will still write my opinion .

Ebon is considered best for a reason . As Oreyn said , in content where you can get huge damage in a split second , damage mitigation doesn't help that much . An example . Rakkhat hitting the platform dealing huge damage to everyone . Small orbs from middle platform dealing huge damage to certain people . If you get hit by both of them at the same time , there is a big chance you will die . Taking 6% less damage will not help you in this situation . I have seen people recovering from less than 200 Health lots of times . For some weird reason , if you have to choose only one of them , choose Ebon . You will see more survival rate than you will see with Lord Warden . Also don't forget that Warden is only useful for melee DPS (who is standing really , I mean really close to tank) while Ebon is for everyone , range or melee .

As for easier content , just go with whatever you want . It doesn't matter anyways .

Liofa wrote: »

Even though I don't understand why the compare while you can have both at the same time , I will still write my opinion .

Ebon is considered best for a reason . As Oreyn said , in content where you can get huge damage in a split second , damage mitigation doesn't help that much . An example . Rakkhat hitting the platform dealing huge damage to everyone . Small orbs from middle platform dealing huge damage to certain people . If you get hit by both of them at the same time , there is a big chance you will die . Taking 6% less damage will not help you in this situation . I have seen people recovering from less than 200 Health lots of times . For some weird reason , if you have to choose only one of them , choose Ebon . You will see more survival rate than you will see with Lord Warden . Also don't forget that Warden is only useful for melee DPS (who is standing really , I mean really close to tank) while Ebon is for everyone , range or melee .

As for easier content , just go with whatever you want . It doesn't matter anyways .

God forbid a dps puts some points into health and lose 1% dps in favor of not dying constantly. Clearly it's the tanks job to make them viable.

Liofa wrote: »

Even though I don't understand why the compare while you can have both at the same time , I will still write my opinion .

Ebon is considered best for a reason . As Oreyn said , in content where you can get huge damage in a split second , damage mitigation doesn't help that much . An example . Rakkhat hitting the platform dealing huge damage to everyone . Small orbs from middle platform dealing huge damage to certain people . If you get hit by both of them at the same time , there is a big chance you will die . Taking 6% less damage will not help you in this situation . I have seen people recovering from less than 200 Health lots of times . For some weird reason , if you have to choose only one of them , choose Ebon . You will see more survival rate than you will see with Lord Warden . Also don't forget that Warden is only useful for melee DPS (who is standing really , I mean really close to tank) while Ebon is for everyone , range or melee .

As for easier content , just go with whatever you want . It doesn't matter anyways .

I guess you didn't actually look at the spreadsheet or even the picture in my post.

Mathematically, you can survive more damage with a warden orb on you than 1k hit points from Ebon. That is absolutely not opinion, its fact. The damage mitigation calculations are very well known, and if you actually look at what I posted, Warden's resistance is significantly better than 1k HP for surviving burst damage. You can make a copy of the sheet and play with all the variables, warden is always better unless you are at mitigation cap (which no DPS is).

The point about range is valid for some fights, but not for others, but for damage mitigation warden is noticeably better; but as Levar would say, you don't have to take my word for it. I posted the math, feel free to help correct it if you think I have made an error.

amasuriel wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

Even though I don't understand why the compare while you can have both at the same time , I will still write my opinion .

Ebon is considered best for a reason . As Oreyn said , in content where you can get huge damage in a split second , damage mitigation doesn't help that much . An example . Rakkhat hitting the platform dealing huge damage to everyone . Small orbs from middle platform dealing huge damage to certain people . If you get hit by both of them at the same time , there is a big chance you will die . Taking 6% less damage will not help you in this situation . I have seen people recovering from less than 200 Health lots of times . For some weird reason , if you have to choose only one of them , choose Ebon . You will see more survival rate than you will see with Lord Warden . Also don't forget that Warden is only useful for melee DPS (who is standing really , I mean really close to tank) while Ebon is for everyone , range or melee .

As for easier content , just go with whatever you want . It doesn't matter anyways .

I guess you didn't actually look at the spreadsheet or even the picture in my post.

Mathematically, you can survive more damage with a warden orb on you than 1k hit points from Ebon. That is absolutely not opinion, its fact. The damage mitigation calculations are very well known, and if you actually look at what I posted, Warden's resistance is significantly better than 1k HP for surviving burst damage. You can make a copy of the sheet and play with all the variables, warden is always better unless you are at mitigation cap (which no DPS is).

The point about range is valid for some fights, but not for others, but for damage mitigation warden is noticeably better; but as Levar would say, you don't have to take my word for it. I posted the math, feel free to help correct it if you think I have made an error.

I did see the pictures and examined them carefully . I totally understand what you mean and I agree to a point . In the first post you say ''These people insist that not only is Ebon BiS, it's required for some trials.'' . From what I understand also from the name of thread ''arguments AGAINST ebon'' you don't think Ebon is that useful . Correct me if I am wrong here .

Even though Warden gives more survivability , I don't think it is better than Ebon . Simple because of the range . Most groups have at least 4 , sometimes 5 range DDs and healers which will not get any benefit in most fights . Especially in most damaging fights like Rakkhat , mechanics requires you to spread which makes Warden less effective .

As I said , I don't understand why compare why you can have both . We use both and when I say ''I saw people surviving with less than 200 Health'' is with both sets being used . Those players with 200 Health would have died if we didn't have one of those sets . I experienced exactly the same thing today while playing DD in vMoL . I was so close to dying I literally saw my addon showing my Health as ''Dead'' . I was in Warden and I had Ebon . Both at the same time . My only disagreement is you are being against Ebon . My first language is not English so I am sorry if I am understanding wrong . Comparing 2 sets that can be used together means you are against the usage of one . Am I missing something here ?

amasuriel wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

I don't doubt the math, but the math does not take into account the realities and mechanics of the fight.

It's a game with a damage formula, the math is absolutely the reality. If you take X raw damage in ESO, with Y resistance and Z passives, you will subtract N hitpoints every time without fail.

If your argument is about the range of Warden, it's a separate debate. Indisputable though is that if you have a warden orb you will survive more damage than an extra 1k HP.

1. You showed that Warden adds more effective health than Ebon. I do not and did not dispute this.
2. You argued that Ebon is not BiS for trials. I vehemently dispute this.
   • Warden and Ebon are not mutually exclusive. For Rakkhat, we have both Ebon and Warden in group.
   • "BiS" isn't determined by abstract numbers. "BiS" is determined by practical experience and what actually works in reality. Your thread title says "empirical", yet it would appear that you do not know the definition of this word: "based on, concerned with, or verifiable by observation or experience rather than theory or pure logic"
   • The reality is that Ebon does help and that that Ebon's range means that it helps reliably. And any raid leader making a decision about what gear the tanks should run would be a fool to ignore factors like Ebon's range and Ebon's uptime. Even if Warden and Ebon were somehow mutually exclusive (which they aren't), I would still pick Ebon because it helps the entire raid instead of just the small handful who can remain within range of the tank. So, no, the range argument isn't "a separate debate". It's a crucial factor when making statements about what is and isn't "BiS".
3. Your spreadsheet has an error. Your "Remaining HP with Warden" row has B4+B7 instead of just B4. So the number you show is actually "Remaining HP with Warden and Ebon", not "Remaining HP with Warden". With that error corrected, Warden still comes out ahead for damage >17500 (Ebon will come out ahead for damage amounts below that), but the difference is quite a bit lower than what your spreadsheet suggests.

Mathematically Essence thief should be BIS for stam DPS but in reality it's just impossible to collect the essences in many fights, same goes for the warden orb range. How useful do you think it is in Mage HM figths for example?
Dragonguard faces the problem that you have at least 3 people in your group running warhorns and if some of them have a much faster ultimate reg they simply have to wait for the others and the bonus is wasted. In Dungeons with only 2 Warhorns that's fine, but in trials it's different.

For the rest I summon you @Woeler! Have fun!

@amasuriel while your math is correct you missed the most importent point: 5m Radius is a joke.
While it is great for the melees, the range DDs and healer (who run with 16k Health most of the time in a raid) it has absolute no effect.

So yes Ebon is BiS and yes the off Tank should and normally does run Lord Warden to improve the situation near the boss even further, as this is where most of the damage usually happens.

A raid without Ebon is a raid with a lot of problems. Period.

Warhorns in hm trials are on a 4 person rotation. Any ultigen beyond what is needed for that to be consistent is a waste. That is a fact. Dungeon tanking is a free for all, there honestly is no such thing as BiS because what the tank wears depends on what the rest of the group is like.

Asmael wrote: »

Ebon provides more than 1,000 HP (1118 according to Fextralife, can't confirm it ingame right now), which also scales of +% max HP bonuses, such as CPs and undaunted passives.

Not going to mention Warden's range since it has already been mentioned why it has trouble comparing to Ebon in this regard.

In both cases: the extra mitigation and / or HP can make the difference between surviving a deadly timing of stacked mechanics or wiping the floor (which means restarting the whole trial for top scores).

Just checked it and it's around 1.5k with 6% undaunted and warhorn up.

WalksonGraves wrote: »

TARAFRAKA wrote: »

I cant wait for @Woeler...
Also, @WalksonGraves,most of us are well aware from the blazeplar pve trial tank thread that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about for anything tank related.

Get off his *** dude

Wallow in ignorance if you want, your precious meta is getting nerfed while my build continues to beat it in every possible way. High scores are a measure of your guilds dps not your tanking ability.

Oh great saviour please enlighten us!

---

The only one being ignorant here is yourself.
You can't handle the fact, that people gave reason to why Ebon is stronger in an actual trial situation.
And by the way: There is a reason certain things become meta, at least in PvE and that is the simple fact, that people sit down use actual math combined with their knowledge of the game and give you the perfect setup.

And to come back to one of your previous comments, no there is simply no reason for a DD to put any points into health while running in a premade group, as they simply don't need to.

I am always interested what people come up with but as long as you don't show us what you got and the only contribution to the discussion is an insult, no one can take you serious.

I also don't get why people have to insult and categorically question people just like woeler, who have so much more experience and accomplished so much more, while running and actually defining the meta.
I don't say you should not question what people say, but it has to be with arguments and in the right manner.
An insult and general condemnation just because they are running the meta is a no go

Liofa wrote: »

amasuriel wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

Even though I don't understand why the compare while you can have both at the same time , I will still write my opinion .

Ebon is considered best for a reason . As Oreyn said , in content where you can get huge damage in a split second , damage mitigation doesn't help that much . An example . Rakkhat hitting the platform dealing huge damage to everyone . Small orbs from middle platform dealing huge damage to certain people . If you get hit by both of them at the same time , there is a big chance you will die . Taking 6% less damage will not help you in this situation . I have seen people recovering from less than 200 Health lots of times . For some weird reason , if you have to choose only one of them , choose Ebon . You will see more survival rate than you will see with Lord Warden . Also don't forget that Warden is only useful for melee DPS (who is standing really , I mean really close to tank) while Ebon is for everyone , range or melee .

As for easier content , just go with whatever you want . It doesn't matter anyways .

I guess you didn't actually look at the spreadsheet or even the picture in my post.

Mathematically, you can survive more damage with a warden orb on you than 1k hit points from Ebon. That is absolutely not opinion, its fact. The damage mitigation calculations are very well known, and if you actually look at what I posted, Warden's resistance is significantly better than 1k HP for surviving burst damage. You can make a copy of the sheet and play with all the variables, warden is always better unless you are at mitigation cap (which no DPS is).

The point about range is valid for some fights, but not for others, but for damage mitigation warden is noticeably better; but as Levar would say, you don't have to take my word for it. I posted the math, feel free to help correct it if you think I have made an error.

I did see the pictures and examined them carefully . I totally understand what you mean and I agree to a point . In the first post you say ''These people insist that not only is Ebon BiS, it's required for some trials.'' . From what I understand also from the name of thread ''arguments AGAINST ebon'' you don't think Ebon is that useful . Correct me if I am wrong here .

Even though Warden gives more survivability , I don't think it is better than Ebon . Simple because of the range . Most groups have at least 4 , sometimes 5 range DDs and healers which will not get any benefit in most fights . Especially in most damaging fights like Rakkhat , mechanics requires you to spread which makes Warden less effective .

As I said , I don't understand why compare why you can have both . We use both and when I say ''I saw people surviving with less than 200 Health'' is with both sets being used . Those players with 200 Health would have died if we didn't have one of those sets . I experienced exactly the same thing today while playing DD in vMoL . I was so close to dying I literally saw my addon showing my Health as ''Dead'' . I was in Warden and I had Ebon . Both at the same time . My only disagreement is you are being against Ebon . My first language is not English so I am sorry if I am understanding wrong . Comparing 2 sets that can be used together means you are against the usage of one . Am I missing something here ?

I do think Ebon is useful honestly, and of course you can have both. I had a series of conversations in guild chat over 2 days about Ebon being required, with no arguments other than "it's BiS" with no backing, and it drives me up the wall.

Comparing it to warden was only because these same people insist that Bloodspawn is the only monster helm choice in the same breath, so I dragged my argument to the forums

I don't think wearing Ebon is a bad choice, and for some groups it's maybe the best choice, but it's not the only possible answer, even when it comes to helping with survival.

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

amasuriel wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

All I know is the Ebon was a game changer in VMOL HM. Most glass cannon DPS, which you need to be in that fight, just don't quite have enough health to stay alive without the health Buffs from both Ebon and warhorn.

When you have 2 tanks in a trials, there is more than one way to get it done, but one should have Ebon and one should have alkosh. Also we found warden super useful in there as well. Other than that, it's all about how fast you can get your ultimate up, so tavas and dragon are obvious choices.

In solo, I don't believe BIS is a thing for a tank. I prefer, 5 tavas, 5 dragon, as a baseline and swap out the monster set depending on what I am doing.

So then, based on my post above, you could just as easily argue Warden was BiS as Ebon is my point, and in fact Warden is noticeably better in trials where the hard fights require stacking. I can accept "DPS need survival help", but Ebon isn't the only way to do it, and I get annoyed by blind insistence

**EDIT** Two tanks like you have in vMOL certainly make it easier, as 1 ultimate tank and 2 healers can maintain most of the warhorn and you can have a dedicated buff tank

Well, I honestly think you are comparing apples and oranges. One is a monster set, one is a 5 piece and they actually do very different things. They are both highly useful. On our HM clear, one tank wore ebon and both tanks were wearing Lord Warden, so they both rule. Also, what is BIS depends on situation. I dont wear either of these sets when tanking four man stuff, they just arent needed.

WalksonGraves wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

Even though I don't understand why the compare while you can have both at the same time , I will still write my opinion .

Ebon is considered best for a reason . As Oreyn said , in content where you can get huge damage in a split second , damage mitigation doesn't help that much . An example . Rakkhat hitting the platform dealing huge damage to everyone . Small orbs from middle platform dealing huge damage to certain people . If you get hit by both of them at the same time , there is a big chance you will die . Taking 6% less damage will not help you in this situation . I have seen people recovering from less than 200 Health lots of times . For some weird reason , if you have to choose only one of them , choose Ebon . You will see more survival rate than you will see with Lord Warden . Also don't forget that Warden is only useful for melee DPS (who is standing really , I mean really close to tank) while Ebon is for everyone , range or melee .

As for easier content , just go with whatever you want . It doesn't matter anyways .

God forbid a dps puts some points into health and lose 1% dps in favor of not dying constantly. Clearly it's the tanks job to make them viable.

It's the tanks job to maintain aggro, not die, and support the group in any way possible. Some people cant handle all three at once. In our Raid we do this thing called WORKING TOGETHER. Considering we spent over 3 months in hardmode, we tried damn near everything. One thing we tried was having everyone put 10 pts into health. We found it best to have one tank run ebon instead of having 10 people (healers count too) sacrifice their builds to add health. The DPS checks are real. Consider the possibility that the reason you dont like support sets (ebon is apparently not even in your top 20), is that maybe you just arent a very good tank and need mitigation sets to survive?

Do me a favor, please update us with your blazeplar build after you successfully tank HM VMOL. Also, I will be sure to let our tank know that any of our good scores have nothing to do with him. SMH.

TLDR: I encourage any trial group running hardmodes to have one tank in Ebon and one or both tanks in Lord Warden.

I think you forgot to drop your mic at the end of that, kind sir.