Endgame PvE DPS needs adjustments before this patch goes live

Nefaras · January 2017

So what are you guys waiting for? Just go grab your fancy staff and robe and be a great magican! Ah and dont forget to let a bloodsucker bite you! The Elder Robes is waiting!

Shadzilla · January 2017

Alcast wrote: »

If people only would LISTEN to what I am saying in those videos....god...

You are one of the more popular people regarding eso. I am really quite confused why @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert along with other zos employees do not listen and or acknowledge the things you have easily presented in this thread...

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/312992/why-are-stamina-setups-bad-for-trials-pve/p1

Its such a shame stamina does not have anywhere close to the population number magicka does. It would be much easier if there were 5000 people smashing the forums with posts about how mangled stamina is for PVE comp trials. Much like what happened when bone shield was relatively usable (yet still very under powered) for ONE PTS PATCH last year...

@Alcast We need more stam guys on the forums QQing, holler at all the stam on EU to come to the forums. Only way changes happen with this company is to get as many people crying on the forums as possible. We need moar!

DragonBound · January 2017

SickDuck wrote: »

You are doing it all wrong. Magicka meant to be for pve while stamina is for pvp play (as you like). Clear as day.

Even essential skills as vigor and caltrops are in the pvp lines. Stop harassing ZOS and take the hint!

This is a load of nonsense period, I have had people tell me that there was a time when stamina was over performing so your comment makes zero sense, also I very highly doubt anyone including zos wants every class running around with a staff for end game content, that will not be fun for anyone.

And who is harassing zos? This is a feedback forum, everyone has been constructive as far as I read so far.

RazorCaltrops · January 2017

Stamina characters are currently vma farm bots on live with occasional usage in trials for extra weekly loot. Most stam players switched to magplar and mag dk for melee play.

If they rework;

1-the radius of endless hail/arrow barrage

2-deadly cloak for additional defensive mechanic without touching the aoe mitigation

3-apply rend's vma empower to all targets hit (currently it only hits empowered to target you hit with flurry as you all know, other targets get hit with the tooltip value)

It would be a good start in my opinion.

Izaki · January 2017

Voryn_Dagoth wrote: »

In regards to Magicka and Sorcerers: The tests were on a non-moving, non-fighting target, so it has to be seen, whether the Sorcerers and their pets will have the same result on live targets. It is a great first impression, but not enough to judge balance deficiencies.

It doesn't matter if a target moves because all the abilities a sorc has can be performed at max range. I don't think pets will be a thing however as they do still steal buffs and they die all over the place.

Izaki · January 2017

I'm already not allowed to bring a stam build into any trials. The patch is a month away (xbox). Enough said.

Voryn_Dagoth · January 2017

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Voryn_Dagoth wrote: »

In regards to Magicka and Sorcerers: The tests were on a non-moving, non-fighting target, so it has to be seen, whether the Sorcerers and their pets will have the same result on live targets. It is a great first impression, but not enough to judge balance deficiencies.

It doesn't matter if a target moves because all the abilities a sorc has can be performed at max range. I don't think pets will be a thing however as they do still steal buffs and they die all over the place.

That was the point, nothing more, nothing less. If the pets "still steal buffs and they die all over the place" then the overall DPS of Sorcs will probably lower towards the level of the other magicka classes in this context. So, the notion of "The Sorc Gap" with them becoming OP is too premature to judge.

The_Protagonist · January 2017

This is not fair

ELDER SORCS ONLINE (Magicka Edition)
Coming to you with update 13

Starring: Wrobel
Special Guest: Wrobel
Directed by: Wrobel
Created by: Wrobel
Presented by: Wrobel
Played by: Wrobel

Sotha_Sil · January 2017

Can you really compare magicka vs stamina if you don't use Bis stuff (no MSA weapons on one video) ? I think those videos were made to compare dps between magicka classes alone and between stamina classes alone

Izaki · January 2017

Voryn_Dagoth wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Voryn_Dagoth wrote: »

In regards to Magicka and Sorcerers: The tests were on a non-moving, non-fighting target, so it has to be seen, whether the Sorcerers and their pets will have the same result on live targets. It is a great first impression, but not enough to judge balance deficiencies.

It doesn't matter if a target moves because all the abilities a sorc has can be performed at max range. I don't think pets will be a thing however as they do still steal buffs and they die all over the place.

That was the point, nothing more, nothing less. If the pets "still steal buffs and they die all over the place" then the overall DPS of Sorcs will probably lower towards the level of the other magicka classes in this context. So, the notion of "The Sorc Gap" with them becoming OP is too premature to judge.

Oh I didn't mean that sorcs are going to be OP or whatnot, I just said that it doesn't really matter if the target moves or not because sorcs are fully ranged DP so they still are able to keep the most pressure on a boss of all classes IMO.

But it is sad to see stam neglected like this.

Nefaras · January 2017

I dont know why they cant give US a offical statement about this. They Spam in "every" housing Thread....

The_Protagonist · January 2017

Nefaras wrote: »

I dont know why they cant give US a offical statement about this. They Spam in "every" housing Thread....

Because they know many of the ERPers will literally open their wallets to Housing just like many idiots people did for Con-Crates, right now ZOS is playing Greedy mode.

Nefaras · January 2017

unhander_2 wrote: »

Nefaras wrote: »

I dont know why they cant give US a offical statement about this. They Spam in "every" housing Thread....

Because they know many of the ERPers will literally open their wallets to Housing just like many idiots people did for Con-Crates, right now ZOS is playing Greedy mode.

Yes , Same happend in swtor. Now they are in the 2nd 1/2 year without any New content and no balance in pve/pvp

MaxwellC · January 2017

@Asmael
He (alcast) technically did run major fracture since he was running twice fanged serpent; I do remember him saying that it's somehow bugged on PTS but the disparity of Mag vs Stam in PvE is definitely notice-able at-least with the trials I tank or DPS on.
Mag DK still suffers from sustain issues which will never go away unfortunately and my stam DK still will never get hits Flames of Oblivion back (AoE) so he could finally have a decent AoE to use other than arrow barrage.

Stamden · January 2017

Voryn_Dagoth wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Voryn_Dagoth wrote: »

In regards to Magicka and Sorcerers: The tests were on a non-moving, non-fighting target, so it has to be seen, whether the Sorcerers and their pets will have the same result on live targets. It is a great first impression, but not enough to judge balance deficiencies.

It doesn't matter if a target moves because all the abilities a sorc has can be performed at max range. I don't think pets will be a thing however as they do still steal buffs and they die all over the place.

That was the point, nothing more, nothing less. If the pets "still steal buffs and they die all over the place" then the overall DPS of Sorcs will probably lower towards the level of the other magicka classes in this context. So, the notion of "The Sorc Gap" with them becoming OP is too premature to judge.

Regardless of the tests, you can look at where Sorcs are now and the changes that are happening to all the classes and come to the same conclusion. Sorcs are already the bread and butter DPS for competitive Trial groups. It seems they are also getting really good DPS buffs this patch too. The Curse change was a straight up DPS increase.

So Sorcs are already at the top due to their DPS, ranged, and versatility. The best case scenrio is that Sorcs continue to be at the top but only by the margin on live. The more probable situation is that Sorcs get pushed even further and pushes Endgame PvE into even more of a cookie-cutter, 7-8 Sorc Trial group meta that is stale.

Regardless of either scenario, something needs to be done. The gap needs to be decrease and all setups should receive similar DPS numbers. Even more ideal, melee-only setups should actually surpass the DPS of ranged by a small margin.

Asmael · January 2017

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Asmael
He (alcast) technically did run major fracture since he was running twice fanged serpent; I do remember him saying that it's somehow bugged on PTS but the disparity of Mag vs Stam in PvE is definitely notice-able at-least with the trials I tank or DPS on.
Mag DK still suffers from sustain issues which will never go away unfortunately and my stam DK still will never get hits Flames of Oblivion back (AoE) so he could finally have a decent AoE to use other than arrow barrage.

Extremely rough math (since I'm at work and can't check the exact numbers, but sssh):
5k Major Fracture
5k TFS
5k Sharpened weapons
3k Alkosh (already at cap at this point - 18k2)
3k Minor fracture + crusher enchant

=> No Kra'gh, no CP in physical penetration, possible alternative could be to replace a sharpened weapon with Infused and wear 1p Kra'gh instead. This is, of course, highly reliant on group (de)buffs.

No NMG / Sunderflame, since there probably won't be more than one stamina DD anyway. If you bring a stamina DD in a raid, it's probably going to be the only one, so there'll be no group support that benefits solely stamina DDs coming from tanks / healers. Hence why: nope, that's not technically Major Fracture. It has a very similar effect to Major fracture, but it comes with a 5p set loss (Shadow mundus from TBS for instance).

And yush, I wouldn't mind an AoE version of Flames of Oblivion. The crit scaling is actually nice since it works for both mag and stam. For sustain, still curious how it'll go. For now, if you have magicka issues, you should probably blame your healer

Artemiisia · January 2017

what the point in having steak on the back bar also at the stamina sorc test setup? couldnt there have been a dps increase skill in that slot instead, seems kinda pointless having it there, unless its changed in pts?

and isnt major fracture like a 10%-15% increase of damage as well for stamina builds? which was missing from the test

looks like I need to get my little pet out on my sorc build

code65536 · January 2017

MaxwellC wrote: »

He (alcast) technically did run major fracture since he was running twice fanged serpent; I do remember him saying that it's somehow bugged on PTS but the disparity of Mag vs Stam in PvE is definitely notice-able at-least with the trials I tank or DPS on.
Mag DK still suffers from sustain issues which will never go away unfortunately and my stam DK still will never get hits Flames of Oblivion back (AoE) so he could finally have a decent AoE to use other than arrow barrage.

TFS and Major Fracture are two separate things. If he was running Surprise Attack on a NB or the DK breath, then, sure, the lack of Fracture from tank would be irrelevant, but otherwise, TFS != MF

Strider_Roshin · January 2017

AzuraKin wrote: »

Neighbor wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_EricWrobel

Endgame PvE DPS is extremely unbalanced right now. Considering this is supposed to be "the balance patch", this really needs looking into before this patch goes live. So first let's compare each setup. Thankfully @Alcast did some testing on all the endgame setups.

Magika:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0T4vxgRdN8&t

Stamina:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lPuAx65-dE

Results:

Mag DK - 36k
Mag Sorc - 41k
Mag NB - 36k
Mag Templar - 37k
All Stam setups - ~32k

Problems:

Stamina - First of all, no stam setup can compete with mag setup. Stam setups already have the major downside of having less AoE, less utility, and less survivability than their magika counterparts. There is no reason to bring a stam character into a trial environment at all.

The Sorc Gap - The next problem is the immense gap in DPS between Mag Sorcs and all of the other magika classes. A difference of 5k is huge when going for scores. Optimal raid setups are only going to use Sorcs for DPS. The fact that their rotation is relatively simple and they don't have much trouble with magika is just icing on the cake.

Melee - Ideally, melee characters should be rewarded for having to go in melee range. Certain bosses cater much more to ranged setups, and being melee you expose yourself to more mechanics to deal with. Melee setups should at least have the same, or better DPS than ranged setups. In these tests, the opposite effect is shown. Stam setups and Mag DK are the ones that are most limited to melee for their rotation, while they also have the lowest DPS.

Sustainability - Notice how some setups struggle to keep up magika/stamina doing these rotations much more than others. For example, Mag Temp does not go below 80% magika in the entire fight, while Mag DK cannot sustain the rotation for very long at all. In long boss fights, setups that cannot maintain the rotation during entire fight are a hindrance to total DPS of the group.

I know the patch drops in 2 weeks, but these problems need to be addressed before the patch drops or else endgame PvE is going to be very limiting to certain setups. Considering this game does not receive patches very often, and balance changes even less often, this needs to be looked at immediately.

bah another animation cancelling cheater, wonder how 'good' these players would be if they didnt cheat.

You don't know what this word means do you? Animation cancellation is a mechanic that ZOS wants in the game. If you can't grasp this mechanic, it doesn't make us cheaters, it makes you incompetent.

MaxwellC · January 2017

@code65536
Yeah obviously they're two different things but he ranged twice fanged serp while mag he had someone use major breech (ele drain). They're both in the same bucket right there mate that's my point at-least debuff wise they're not too far apart by around 200-280.
Maybe @Alcast can state what debuffs he ran on the stam version and mag version so we can compare a bit more because I'm not entirely sure if he had another debuff for stam that mag did not.

SublimeSparo · January 2017

@Alcast for the stam tests you could have a nb keep up mark target to give 100% uptime on major fracture& breach without affecting the dps times

Alcast · January 2017

SublimeSparo wrote: »

@Alcast for the stam tests you could have a nb keep up mark target to give 100% uptime on major fracture& breach without affecting the dps times

I know....but i dont have a personal trainer available 24/7

Alcast · January 2017

MaxwellC wrote: »

@code65536
Yeah obviously they're two different things but he ranged twice fanged serp while mag he had someone use major breech (ele drain). They're both in the same bucket right there mate that's my point at-least debuff wise they're not too far apart by around 200-280.
Maybe @Alcast can state what debuffs he ran on the stam version and mag version so we can compare a bit more because I'm not entirely sure if he had another debuff for stam that mag did not.

I explained that in the videos...but apparently 90% of ppl actually do not listren what I have to say lol

usmcjdking · January 2017

The issue isn't that the developers don't know stam doesn't need large PVE buffs.

The issue is that they have expressed not leaning towards the gearing buffs which creates large gaps between good and great.

DW and bow are phenomenal PVE and PVP complements and do not need any buffs. Heavy Weapons as well as forceful could do for the rework/buff combo to help bring 2H in line with DW. But again that doesn't solve the problem of stam just not having the numbers or high value dots available to it.

That leaves you with limited places to buff.

We have medium armor left on the buffing table and that's about it. Potentially adding a CHD to the last passive would be a good route to go IMO.

xblackroxe · January 2017

AzuraKin wrote: »

Neighbor wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_EricWrobel

Endgame PvE DPS is extremely unbalanced right now. Considering this is supposed to be "the balance patch", this really needs looking into before this patch goes live. So first let's compare each setup. Thankfully @Alcast did some testing on all the endgame setups.

Magika:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0T4vxgRdN8&t

Stamina:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lPuAx65-dE

Results:

Mag DK - 36k
Mag Sorc - 41k
Mag NB - 36k
Mag Templar - 37k
All Stam setups - ~32k

Problems:

Stamina - First of all, no stam setup can compete with mag setup. Stam setups already have the major downside of having less AoE, less utility, and less survivability than their magika counterparts. There is no reason to bring a stam character into a trial environment at all.

The Sorc Gap - The next problem is the immense gap in DPS between Mag Sorcs and all of the other magika classes. A difference of 5k is huge when going for scores. Optimal raid setups are only going to use Sorcs for DPS. The fact that their rotation is relatively simple and they don't have much trouble with magika is just icing on the cake.

Melee - Ideally, melee characters should be rewarded for having to go in melee range. Certain bosses cater much more to ranged setups, and being melee you expose yourself to more mechanics to deal with. Melee setups should at least have the same, or better DPS than ranged setups. In these tests, the opposite effect is shown. Stam setups and Mag DK are the ones that are most limited to melee for their rotation, while they also have the lowest DPS.

Sustainability - Notice how some setups struggle to keep up magika/stamina doing these rotations much more than others. For example, Mag Temp does not go below 80% magika in the entire fight, while Mag DK cannot sustain the rotation for very long at all. In long boss fights, setups that cannot maintain the rotation during entire fight are a hindrance to total DPS of the group.

I know the patch drops in 2 weeks, but these problems need to be addressed before the patch drops or else endgame PvE is going to be very limiting to certain setups. Considering this game does not receive patches very often, and balance changes even less often, this needs to be looked at immediately.

bah another animation cancelling cheater, wonder how 'good' these players would be if they didnt cheat.

LOL dude.
Maybe L2P or idk. Not our problem that you are simply bad.

Strider_Roshin · January 2017

Alcast wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

@code65536
Yeah obviously they're two different things but he ranged twice fanged serp while mag he had someone use major breech (ele drain). They're both in the same bucket right there mate that's my point at-least debuff wise they're not too far apart by around 200-280.
Maybe @Alcast can state what debuffs he ran on the stam version and mag version so we can compare a bit more because I'm not entirely sure if he had another debuff for stam that mag did not.

I explained that in the videos...but apparently 90% of ppl actually do not listren what I have to say lol

I'm sorry, did you say something?

Alcast · January 2017

AzuraKin wrote: »

Neighbor wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_EricWrobel

Endgame PvE DPS is extremely unbalanced right now. Considering this is supposed to be "the balance patch", this really needs looking into before this patch goes live. So first let's compare each setup. Thankfully @Alcast did some testing on all the endgame setups.

Magika:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0T4vxgRdN8&t

Stamina:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lPuAx65-dE

Results:

Mag DK - 36k
Mag Sorc - 41k
Mag NB - 36k
Mag Templar - 37k
All Stam setups - ~32k

Problems:

Stamina - First of all, no stam setup can compete with mag setup. Stam setups already have the major downside of having less AoE, less utility, and less survivability than their magika counterparts. There is no reason to bring a stam character into a trial environment at all.

The Sorc Gap - The next problem is the immense gap in DPS between Mag Sorcs and all of the other magika classes. A difference of 5k is huge when going for scores. Optimal raid setups are only going to use Sorcs for DPS. The fact that their rotation is relatively simple and they don't have much trouble with magika is just icing on the cake.

Melee - Ideally, melee characters should be rewarded for having to go in melee range. Certain bosses cater much more to ranged setups, and being melee you expose yourself to more mechanics to deal with. Melee setups should at least have the same, or better DPS than ranged setups. In these tests, the opposite effect is shown. Stam setups and Mag DK are the ones that are most limited to melee for their rotation, while they also have the lowest DPS.

Sustainability - Notice how some setups struggle to keep up magika/stamina doing these rotations much more than others. For example, Mag Temp does not go below 80% magika in the entire fight, while Mag DK cannot sustain the rotation for very long at all. In long boss fights, setups that cannot maintain the rotation during entire fight are a hindrance to total DPS of the group.

I know the patch drops in 2 weeks, but these problems need to be addressed before the patch drops or else endgame PvE is going to be very limiting to certain setups. Considering this game does not receive patches very often, and balance changes even less often, this needs to be looked at immediately.

bah another animation cancelling cheater, wonder how 'good' these players would be if they didnt cheat.

https://youtu.be/ThZtwhYkKSs

Zinaroth · January 2017

AzuraKin wrote: »

Neighbor wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_EricWrobel

Endgame PvE DPS is extremely unbalanced right now. Considering this is supposed to be "the balance patch", this really needs looking into before this patch goes live. So first let's compare each setup. Thankfully @Alcast did some testing on all the endgame setups.

Magika:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0T4vxgRdN8&t

Stamina:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lPuAx65-dE

Results:

Mag DK - 36k
Mag Sorc - 41k
Mag NB - 36k
Mag Templar - 37k
All Stam setups - ~32k

Problems:

Stamina - First of all, no stam setup can compete with mag setup. Stam setups already have the major downside of having less AoE, less utility, and less survivability than their magika counterparts. There is no reason to bring a stam character into a trial environment at all.

The Sorc Gap - The next problem is the immense gap in DPS between Mag Sorcs and all of the other magika classes. A difference of 5k is huge when going for scores. Optimal raid setups are only going to use Sorcs for DPS. The fact that their rotation is relatively simple and they don't have much trouble with magika is just icing on the cake.

Melee - Ideally, melee characters should be rewarded for having to go in melee range. Certain bosses cater much more to ranged setups, and being melee you expose yourself to more mechanics to deal with. Melee setups should at least have the same, or better DPS than ranged setups. In these tests, the opposite effect is shown. Stam setups and Mag DK are the ones that are most limited to melee for their rotation, while they also have the lowest DPS.

Sustainability - Notice how some setups struggle to keep up magika/stamina doing these rotations much more than others. For example, Mag Temp does not go below 80% magika in the entire fight, while Mag DK cannot sustain the rotation for very long at all. In long boss fights, setups that cannot maintain the rotation during entire fight are a hindrance to total DPS of the group.

I know the patch drops in 2 weeks, but these problems need to be addressed before the patch drops or else endgame PvE is going to be very limiting to certain setups. Considering this game does not receive patches very often, and balance changes even less often, this needs to be looked at immediately.

bah another animation cancelling cheater, wonder how 'good' these players would be if they didnt cheat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThZtwhYkKSs

Now go troll elsewhere...

usmcjdking · January 2017

@Alcast doesn't even animation cancel that much though...even his PVP videos are relatively tame of it. Why is he being thrown under the bus here?

MLGProPlayer · January 2017

Voryn_Dagoth wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Voryn_Dagoth wrote: »

In regards to Magicka and Sorcerers: The tests were on a non-moving, non-fighting target, so it has to be seen, whether the Sorcerers and their pets will have the same result on live targets. It is a great first impression, but not enough to judge balance deficiencies.

It doesn't matter if a target moves because all the abilities a sorc has can be performed at max range. I don't think pets will be a thing however as they do still steal buffs and they die all over the place.

That was the point, nothing more, nothing less. If the pets "still steal buffs and they die all over the place" then the overall DPS of Sorcs will probably lower towards the level of the other magicka classes in this context. So, the notion of "The Sorc Gap" with them becoming OP is too premature to judge.

Sorc is hitting the same DPS if not higher without the pet. There is a huge gap right now, with Sorc being head and shoulders above the other magicka classes.