Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Reflective Scale
As many have articulated already this is weakened even more every patch. 100% reflect is powerful and I personally would much rather a 20-30% reflect chance over a longer duration. However this skill is perfect not only in animation and appearance but also in position for a Major Expedition buff.

I would like to add to this, while a longer duration buff with a significantly lower chance to proc, would benefit Mag DK's greatly it would make Stam DK's way too strong. That stacked with Shuffle would make them neigh unkillable.

However adding Major Expedition to the current form of Reflective Scale is almost perfect. It significantly helps Mag DK's mobility without overbuffing their defenses. It serves as both a pseudo gap closer and gap creator with which to flee. This would be a big quality of life change for Mag DK's that is not hard to implement. The prohibitive cost would prevent Stam DK's from gaining any significant value from this skill.

@Toc de Malsvi
The statement regarding battle roar to me it seems you're trying to attack it on both sides stating that it's overpowered or underpowered when that doesn't make sense. You have to pick a aside and cannot go at it from both sides. The consistent fact that you gain resources from ultimate usage isn't OP and many people want to apply that to reasoning why Stam DKs are powerful (even though the cheapest ultimate we have access to now that is offensive is take flight).

Battle roar was made with dynamic ultimate regeneration in mind, since that's stripped we pretty much do not generate more ultimate then the next person who isn't a DK (if you think about it we're pretty much 3 to 5 seconds ahead which isn't a big difference in all honesty). Battle roar is equivalent to drinking a lower version of a tri pot but as stated before you get to do that once every so often and not consistently like you were able to do a couple years ago.

Stam DKs are not strong; A Stam vs a Mag DK well the Mag will almost always win because of resource pool to continuously CC (Hard n soft) the opponent. Shuffle is strong but it's not a class specific ability but instead a resource one and I've seen plenty of magicka users rocking shuffle as well (Mag Sorcs as a prime example). Wings are perfect the way they are now but it's just too unreliable and costly, all it really needs now is to address those two and it will be fine (other than the fact that it doesn't reflect almost half the time I use it).

IxskullzxI wrote: »

@Armitas
What do you do on live right now when you get ganked on your mDK?

TBH, as a 30k+ health heavy armor mag DK with volatile armor uptime of nearly 100%, I rarely get selected as the gank target instead of some nearby lower-haning fruit. That probably won't change with or without the CDB heal as long as I continue to play tanky with low damage.

But it would be nice if non-zergball mag DKs could spec for something besides tankiness in PvP. A functioning, reliable heal -- one that perhaps scales off max magicka instead of remaining magicka -- would really be the only buff we NEED to open up class diversity.

My mdk is going to be absolutely brutal next patch. It already is this patch and I'm not looking forward to cyrodiil being swarmed with them. IMHO zos is overdoing the buffs. All they need to do is make cdb be able to crit, change ferocious to fire and make chains more reliable and boom, mdk is the best pvp class in the game.

pieratsos wrote: »

IxskullzxI wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

CaliMade wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

IxskullzxI wrote: »

@pieratsos
So because leap doesnt tooltip as high as dawnbreaker, it wasn't a buff? Does that mean whip didn't get buffed because it doesn't tooltip as high as frags? I'm not sure you know what buff means. It scales off elemental expert now and is affected by spell pen. It is 100% a buff. A buff that helps with burst, sustain, and survivability. All things the dk is lacking.

I know what a buff is. Maybe you dont. The difference is whether the buff is useful or not. If i am using dawnbreaker cause its doing more dmg than leap and they buff leap but its still doing less dmg than dawnbreaker then how on earth is that helping my burst. Obsidian shard projectile speed also got buffed. So what? Its still not going to be used and even if its actually used it is just going to replace the cc u already have which changes absolutely nothing. Never said anything about whip not being a buff. Stop putting words i never said in my mouth. I literally just said that buffs to dmg were not needed. The main issue is that like always they chose to make a lot of changes that were not needed in the first place instead of addressing the main issue. They could literally just make dragon blood a reliable heal and some minor changes to help with survivability and/or sustain so people can invest more into dmg and everything would be fine. But nope. They had to complicate everything in the patch that was aiming to simplify things.

Wait wait wait...do you honestly think DBoS a PHYSICAL DAMAGE move that scales with PHYSICAL PENETRATION i going to hit harder than an abillity that scales off spell pen with over twice the initial damage? (my db tooltyip is 8.8k, did the math and my F-Leap post patch will be ~21.1k). You gonna have to show me some proof, a side to side burst dmg comparison.

and for Obsidian Shard vs petrify, its basically dmg/heal CC vs unblockable CC. i think that changes alot...

There is a video in this thread. Go back a few pages and see for urself. Dawnbreaker is doing more dmg.
Obsidian shard vs petrify changes absolutely nothing. The main reason why u will have them is for cc. Petrify is good. It doesnt need to change. So why the hell do u buff another ability to replace a skill that is already good? If u put a cc on chains however then yes. That would change a lot cause u can have gap closer + cc in one ability. That is an actual buff. Putting major expedition on chains tho its useless. Why the hell would i need a speed buff on my gap closer? And mDK do not need mobility anw. See where this goes now? All kinds of useless and unnecessary buffs that were not needed in the first place and all they do is making everything so complicated that u have no idea how it will work and thats how u end up with overperforming or underperforming classes. Was it really so hard to make DB a realiable heal? We wouldnt even have this conversation over leap or anything else now.

In your video your dawnbreaker hit for 5600.. you took a 7800 leap? You also, a few posts later, said that leap was hitting for 8k noncrit and 13k crit. That is higher than dawnbreaker, per your video evidence. The only buff the mDK really NEEDED was to db. Like it or not, it got a buff. It may not be useful in every situation, but it's better than th dumpster fire of a skill it is on live right now. Plus, Rich said they are looking into possible changes to it. It blows my mind how much complaining there is in this thread about buffs.

My video? What? Lol. Check the names buddy. Im not the one who made the video. Hell i even went back again to read some posts and YOU said it urself. Dawnbreaker hits harder. Anw thats not even the point. The reason why that happens is because dawnbreaker is OP anw and changing every ult to match db strength is not the way to go. The point is mDK needed just a reliable way to heal themselves and some minor buffs to help them invest more into dmg. But they had to make it so complicated with all the unnecessary and useless buffs. It blows my mind how u not understand what is wrong with changes like that. People have been asking for a damn reliable heal for a over a year now. And then a change like this happens, no one knows if its going to be reliable or not and u wonder why people are worried about it.

Wait your going to compare the magicka leap vs dawnbreaker?

Look at your leap tooltip on live then add 38% dmg because dark elf + 6% aoe passive + 25% cp. Then check it dawnbreaker will hit harder.

Leap will hit harder against vamps as well as vamps take 25% extra dmg from fire where as dawnbreaker does 20% more dmg to vamps.

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Toc de Malsvi
The statement regarding battle roar to me it seems you're trying to attack it on both sides stating that it's overpowered or underpowered when that doesn't make sense. You have to pick a aside and cannot go at it from both sides. The consistent fact that you gain resources from ultimate usage isn't OP and many people want to apply that to reasoning why Stam DKs are powerful (even though the cheapest ultimate we have access to now that is offensive is take flight).

No, it wasn't attacking it from both sides, simply acknowledging that the passive sits on top of a peak and given slight changes in either direction it becomes either incredibly strong or fairly weak. It is currently close to being centered and it is still very strong, yet it requires consistent ultimate usage which can impede proper ultimate timing in PVP.

MaxwellC wrote: »

Battle roar was made with dynamic ultimate regeneration in mind, since that's stripped we pretty much do not generate more ultimate then the next person who isn't a DK (if you think about it we're pretty much 3 to 5 seconds ahead which isn't a big difference in all honesty). Battle roar is equivalent to drinking a lower version of a tri pot but as stated before you get to do that once every so often and not consistently like you were able to do a couple years ago.

With dynamic ultimate regeneration Battle Roar is ridiculously strong and arguably overpowered which is a large part of why dynamic ultimate regeneration no longer exists.

MaxwellC wrote: »

Stam DKs are not strong; A Stam vs a Mag DK well the Mag will almost always win because of resource pool to continuously CC (Hard n soft) the opponent. Shuffle is strong but it's not a class specific ability but instead a resource one and I've seen plenty of magicka users rocking shuffle as well (Mag Sorcs as a prime example). Wings are perfect the way they are now but it's just too unreliable and costly, all it really needs now is to address those two and it will be fine (other than the fact that it doesn't reflect almost half the time I use it).

As I main a Stam DK and have always played a Stam DK I am perfectly aware of the capabilities of Stam DK's. No Stam DK's are not some overlords of PVP or PVE, yet we are far from weak.

A Stam DK will not almost always lose to Mag DK, that is ridiculously one sided in opinion. Killing Mag DK's is all about setting up and timing your burst as well as your CC, they will get in your face but they have no special magical way of bypassing immovability from break free or immovable pots. Mag DK's do not have very good burst, and 1v1 mostly they can just be hard to kill at times. Against good Mag DK's more often than not either myself or my opponent has gotten bored and walked away. Mag DK's are very annoying 1v1 but they are far from dominating over Stam DK's, they are however certainly strong enough that many of the buff's that players want on these forums appear ludicrous.

IxskullzxI wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

CaliMade wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

IxskullzxI wrote: »

@pieratsos
So because leap doesnt tooltip as high as dawnbreaker, it wasn't a buff? Does that mean whip didn't get buffed because it doesn't tooltip as high as frags? I'm not sure you know what buff means. It scales off elemental expert now and is affected by spell pen. It is 100% a buff. A buff that helps with burst, sustain, and survivability. All things the dk is lacking.

I know what a buff is. Maybe you dont. The difference is whether the buff is useful or not. If i am using dawnbreaker cause its doing more dmg than leap and they buff leap but its still doing less dmg than dawnbreaker then how on earth is that helping my burst. Obsidian shard projectile speed also got buffed. So what? Its still not going to be used and even if its actually used it is just going to replace the cc u already have which changes absolutely nothing. Never said anything about whip not being a buff. Stop putting words i never said in my mouth. I literally just said that buffs to dmg were not needed. The main issue is that like always they chose to make a lot of changes that were not needed in the first place instead of addressing the main issue. They could literally just make dragon blood a reliable heal and some minor changes to help with survivability and/or sustain so people can invest more into dmg and everything would be fine. But nope. They had to complicate everything in the patch that was aiming to simplify things.

Wait wait wait...do you honestly think DBoS a PHYSICAL DAMAGE move that scales with PHYSICAL PENETRATION i going to hit harder than an abillity that scales off spell pen with over twice the initial damage? (my db tooltyip is 8.8k, did the math and my F-Leap post patch will be ~21.1k). You gonna have to show me some proof, a side to side burst dmg comparison.

and for Obsidian Shard vs petrify, its basically dmg/heal CC vs unblockable CC. i think that changes alot...

There is a video in this thread. Go back a few pages and see for urself. Dawnbreaker is doing more dmg.
Obsidian shard vs petrify changes absolutely nothing. The main reason why u will have them is for cc. Petrify is good. It doesnt need to change. So why the hell do u buff another ability to replace a skill that is already good? If u put a cc on chains however then yes. That would change a lot cause u can have gap closer + cc in one ability. That is an actual buff. Putting major expedition on chains tho its useless. Why the hell would i need a speed buff on my gap closer? And mDK do not need mobility anw. See where this goes now? All kinds of useless and unnecessary buffs that were not needed in the first place and all they do is making everything so complicated that u have no idea how it will work and thats how u end up with overperforming or underperforming classes. Was it really so hard to make DB a realiable heal? We wouldnt even have this conversation over leap or anything else now.

In your video your dawnbreaker hit for 5600.. you took a 7800 leap? You also, a few posts later, said that leap was hitting for 8k noncrit and 13k crit. That is higher than dawnbreaker, per your video evidence. The only buff the mDK really NEEDED was to db. Like it or not, it got a buff. It may not be useful in every situation, but it's better than th dumpster fire of a skill it is on live right now. Plus, Rich said they are looking into possible changes to it. It blows my mind how much complaining there is in this thread about buffs.

Watch the video again. MY dawnbreaker did more damage than MY leap. Leap can scale further to do more damage of course. My leap did 4500 damage and my dawnbreaker did 5600 damage.

pieratsos wrote: »

IxskullzxI wrote: »

@pieratsos
rofl. You do not have to go heavy armor on a mDK. That explains why you have so much trouble. Funny people say whip hits like a noodle yet they dont invest into damage. I know the mDK has to make sacrifices that no other class has to. Still. You miss out on cost reduction, regen, spell pen, and spell crit by not going light. Asking for buffs so you can hit harder in heavy is not what we should be doing. Then light armor builds are going to be insane, leading to higher damage reduction on battle spirit.

Asking for a reliable heal on the class that is designed to hold its ground. How absurd is that. Lol..
Yes obviously light armor is so powerful these days that even magblades and sorcs are trying heavy armor.
And how the hell am i suppose to go with light armor in the first place when i cant even heal?
And if asking for buffs to help play the class the way it was designed to be played is not what we should be doing then tell me exactly what we should be doing.

I never said anything about asking for buffs about db. I said more damage. As in leap. Ive said many times that db is trash on live. Imo, cDB will bring mDK up to a good spot. Regarless if it gets a base value added to it for when you're at 100% magicka. That would be beneficial, but would also be very strong so idk. Also, if whip hit as hard as frags, then I would go heavy too. Just saying, why would you go heavy to hit 2k whips? Healing ward and annulment offer good survivability and you still have damage.

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Just wanted to thank everyone for all the feedback in this thread. We have some updates/changes coming for the next PTS build that we’d like to share:

• Obsidian Shard – Doubled the speed of the projectile.
• Fiery Grip (and morphs) – This ability is no longer dodgeable. Also reduced the duration of the expedition buff by 2 seconds. (6s instead of 8s) Note: the damage portion of this ability can still be blocked.
• Dragon Leap (and morphs) – This ability is no longer dodgeable. (it is an AOE after all). In addition we fixed an issue where the CC immunity while leaping was not being added correctly – you are now immune to all forms of CC, including roots while leaping. Note – players can still out range this ability while the DK is in the air if the DK leaps from max range and the player immediately runs away.

As a note, we are still evaluating the changes to Coagulating Blood. We do hear your feedback on this ability and will continue to monitor it closely on PTS.

I hate to be blunt but you shouldn't need to monitor PTS to realize cDB is a bad skill design. If it works in general than the heal is overpowered and people will learn to abuse it. Because in a general case, it is poorly designed. DKs have been asking for a good reliable heal and you made cDB into an unreliable but bigger heal. We already had that in burning embers. Now DKs have all these high potential and highly situational skills you have to balance around.

IxskullzxI wrote: »

@pieratsos
rofl. You do not have to go heavy armor on a mDK. That explains why you have so much trouble. Funny people say whip hits like a noodle yet they dont invest into damage. I know the mDK has to make sacrifices that no other class has to. Still. You miss out on cost reduction, regen, spell pen, and spell crit by not going light. Asking for buffs so you can hit harder in heavy is not what we should be doing. Then light armor builds are going to be insane, leading to higher damage reduction on battle spirit.

Dude, light armor DKs are absolute garbage in open world PvP. You're going to get one-shot from ganks, and even non-proc NBs would have an easy time dropping you. Heavy armor is the only way to play mDK in PvP and the fact you do not know this by now shows you know nothing about the class.

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Neighbor
I'd say light armor DKs definitely can't survive a gank lol. I've been ganked plenty of times trying to wear 5 light and man you know any other class can either ward up, fear into cloak, BoL/purify with their ritual while a DK will just sit there and try to dragon's blood then die lmfao. Now with the changes to cDB well it'll be even more of the same but this time you'll be mad that you had full magicka.

They just need to make cBD scale off of Max health and allow it to crit but scale it off of 40% without any major mending/CP taken into account and boom! You will have a consistent non OP skill that gives you back around 5k but around 7k with everything in effect (Aside from critting)

ive posted these before but my physical resist is 23307 and my crit resist is 3126 with ~26k spell resist in LA. do i still get ganked? Yes when everything procs. My magplar sits at ~24K Physical 3152 crit resist and ~26k spell resist in Heavy Armor. Do i STILL get ganked? Yes when everything procs. Lets stop acting like its LA's fault that proc stacking is even a thing.
lets stop acting like Heavy is impervious to procs when the only thing it TRULY gives magDKs is 10% more health, weak AF whips and some serious resource management issues. the only tru mitigation is block casting, that can be done in heavy or light.

only a Few times have I been ganked and not recovered. most of those times could have been avoided if cDB actually healed me worth a damn. and only ONCE was i ganked by a non-proc build (Blob's Onslaught build, 21k Onslaught smh).

Veg wrote: »

Veg wrote: »

5 SCIENTIFIC REASONS WHY YOU SHOULD BUFF DRAGON LEAP
https://youtu.be/Jx_Cxkc_t3I

Part of a vid im working on that goes more in depth on mDK's pvp kill mechanics or lack there of. tl;dr F-leap is our only chance at doing anything other than tanking. A dragon blood that heals for 100% of our missing health still wont change what we can do in pvp.

https://youtu.be/fesoLusrnBU

After talking with my fellow mDK mains we've come to the conclusion that Ferocious leap does enough damage. The problem is that we cant use it with any other burst damage.

Kill mechanics rely on combinations of multiple abilities like DoS > reverse slice or Incap strike > impale. Now we have the first ability working, all we need is the second.

What we recommend is the following...

Replace the shield with 1 offensive buff

[*] Gain minor berserk increasing your damage done by 8% for 5 seconds
[*] Increase the damage of your next attack by 50%. This could make our none burst damage abilities do burst damage for 1 use.
[*] Do 75-100% additional damage over 5 seconds. Similar to DoS but weaker. We believe that a DoT = DoS would be too powerfull.

This is tricky to buff without making it over powered but if it's left as is we will be missing out big time. the keks are at 12:15

I was very impressed with your video! Nice.