PTS Feedback Thread for Dragonknight Balance Improvements

usmcjdking · January 2017

Armitas wrote: »

I wonder why the dragonleap at max range is getting out-run. I know it does provide the gap closer slow, I have seen it while in mist form. Maybe it needs major expedition on it closing the gap.

This is not a special case for leap, non-teleport gap closers can all be outranged as well.

Armitas · January 2017

psychotic13 wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Just wanted to thank everyone for all the feedback in this thread. We have some updates/changes coming for the next PTS build that we’d like to share:
Obsidian Shard – Doubled the speed of the projectile.

Fiery Grip (and morphs) – This ability is no longer dodgeable. Also reduced the duration of the expedition buff by 2 seconds. (6s instead of 8s) Note: the damage portion of this ability can still be blocked.

Dragon Leap (and morphs) – This ability is no longer dodgeable. (it is an AOE after all). In addition we fixed an issue where the CC immunity while leaping was not being added correctly – you are now immune to all forms of CC, including roots while leaping. Note – players can still out range this ability while the DK is in the air if the DK leaps from max range and the player immediately runs away.

As a note, we are still evaluating the changes to Coagulating Blood. We do hear your feedback on this ability and will continue to monitor it closely on PTS.

All good, sensible, changes and I'm glad to see the book isn't closed on cDB, but I'm a bit worried that dk reflect isn't being considered. If this goes live with force shock and injection cancels what do you see as the purpose and functionality of our reflect? How do you envision the balance between us fighting a sorc given encase spam and mines? In what real world cases does this remain valuable? Many of us PvPers see this as unhinging any balance we had against sorcs.

I also wonder why we are continually passed up for an increase to sustain.

Any balance you had against a sorc? Wings were basically a hard counter to sorcs lol, you can still reflect frags

And mines and encase were a hard counter to melee range. Balance. Why would I slot wings to deal with hardcast fraggers? Most sorcs are not hardcasting them, they are nesting them point blank.

Bashev · January 2017

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Just wanted to thank everyone for all the feedback in this thread. We have some updates/changes coming for the next PTS build that we’d like to share:
Obsidian Shard – Doubled the speed of the projectile.

Fiery Grip (and morphs) – This ability is no longer dodgeable. Also reduced the duration of the expedition buff by 2 seconds. (6s instead of 8s) Note: the damage portion of this ability can still be blocked.

Dragon Leap (and morphs) – This ability is no longer dodgeable. (it is an AOE after all). In addition we fixed an issue where the CC immunity while leaping was not being added correctly – you are now immune to all forms of CC, including roots while leaping. Note – players can still out range this ability while the DK is in the air if the DK leaps from max range and the player immediately runs away.

As a note, we are still evaluating the changes to Coagulating Blood. We do hear your feedback on this ability and will continue to monitor it closely on PTS.

Nice changes! Especially the chains one. @ZOS_RichLambert is Cauterize heal bugged or it was designed that it cannot heal the caster? Because there is no other skill in the game which is not able to heal the caster.

MaxwellC · January 2017

@ZOS_RichLambert
Thanks for listening to our feedback!

Please oh please give us back Flames of Oblivion. Make it an AoE that increases our DoT damage while also apply DoT or just doing the same old flame damage per second (keep it scale-able off of max resource).

For dragons blood definitely try making it scale off of max health by 40%, it will remain effective even within battle spirit especially if it can still crit.

If helping hands can return 10% of our stamina I will be very very happy!

Bashev · January 2017

MaxwellC wrote: »

@ZOS_RichLambert
Thanks for listening to our feedback!

Please oh please give us back Flames of Oblivion. Make it an AoE that increases our DoT damage while also apply DoT or just doing the same old flame damage per second (keep it scale-able off of max resource).

For dragons blood definitely try making it scale off of max health by 40%, it will remain effective even within battle spirit especially if it can still crit.

If helping hands can return 10% of our stamina I will be very very happy!

10% is unbalanced. It will make stam dks the most OP class.

MaxwellC · January 2017

@Bashev
If possible can you explain because 10% of 40k would be 4k stamina and most stam DKS are around 30-35k since you know the need of stamina regen food. 5% is ridiculous as you do not get enough out of it in comparison sorcerers gain just around 3k and the ability its self costs less + provides health.

Bashev · January 2017

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Bashev
If possible can you explain because 10% of 40k would be 4k stamina and most stam DKS are around 30-35k since you know the need of stamina regen food. 5% is ridiculous as you do not get enough out of it in comparison sorcerers gain just around 3k and the ability its self costs less + provides health.

My stam DK is with 38k stamina. It means that it will return 3.8k stamina for the average cost of 3.8k magicka. Plus all skills that you use are instant cast. Dark deal has a cast time of 1 second and I find it broken OP, i cannot imagine if the helping hands passive was 10% how strong would the stam DKs be.

Armitas · January 2017

It could give a flat stamina % that is modified forward based on the magicka score shown on battle roar. iirc ~30k magicka is a score of 51. (somewhere around that) I know that's equivalent to being based on max magicka but it gives a smaller number to work with.

Ishammael · January 2017

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Just wanted to thank everyone for all the feedback in this thread. We have some updates/changes coming for the next PTS build that we’d like to share:
Obsidian Shard – Doubled the speed of the projectile.

Fiery Grip (and morphs) – This ability is no longer dodgeable. Also reduced the duration of the expedition buff by 2 seconds. (6s instead of 8s) Note: the damage portion of this ability can still be blocked.

Dragon Leap (and morphs) – This ability is no longer dodgeable. (it is an AOE after all). In addition we fixed an issue where the CC immunity while leaping was not being added correctly – you are now immune to all forms of CC, including roots while leaping. Note – players can still out range this ability while the DK is in the air if the DK leaps from max range and the player immediately runs away.

As a note, we are still evaluating the changes to Coagulating Blood. We do hear your feedback on this ability and will continue to monitor it closely on PTS.

While these are all fine changes, they won't affect much. I sincerely hope you have more in mind for mDK because the changes in this patch are just so unimaginative and uninteresting.

RE: Shard. Even with increased speed will unlikely see much play because Fossilize is so good (off balance, root, goes through block). The heal morph is begging to be used... but it just won't be.

RE: Grip. Still won't see play for several reasons. (1) it doesn't take you forward immediately like all other gap closers, (2) still susceptible to z-axis issues, (3) no room on a mDK skill bar for gap closer in addition to a CC.

RE: Dragon Leap. The physical dmg variant is still strictly inferior to Dawnbreaker, both in terms of damage and the "speed" at which the ability can be fired (Dawnbreaker can be animation canceled). The fire morph may see a little play, but Fossilize-->meteor will still be mDK kill combo because it enables you to stack up the damage from several abilities at once.

Other stuff:
Inferno. This skill used to be awesome (in 1.5). Now its strictly inferior to magelight. Bring back the original inferno.

All in all, mDK has been completely left behind by the sweeping gameplay changes since 1.6. The class simply doesn't function as it seems to be intended: melee "tanky" fighter with great sustain but mediocre damage. Strongly suggest that y'all really start to rethink overall balance and class vision across the board. There are several skills in each class that simply aren't used which could be re-purposed.

Vynn · January 2017

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Just wanted to thank everyone for all the feedback in this thread. We have some updates/changes coming for the next PTS build that we’d like to share:
Obsidian Shard – Doubled the speed of the projectile.

Fiery Grip (and morphs) – This ability is no longer dodgeable. Also reduced the duration of the expedition buff by 2 seconds. (6s instead of 8s) Note: the damage portion of this ability can still be blocked.

Dragon Leap (and morphs) – This ability is no longer dodgeable. (it is an AOE after all). In addition we fixed an issue where the CC immunity while leaping was not being added correctly – you are now immune to all forms of CC, including roots while leaping. Note – players can still out range this ability while the DK is in the air if the DK leaps from max range and the player immediately runs away.

As a note, we are still evaluating the changes to Coagulating Blood. We do hear your feedback on this ability and will continue to monitor it closely on PTS.

It is certainly a start. Happy to see the response to feedback. cDB definitely needs work, it is situationally useless. This must be a priority.

MaxwellC · January 2017

@Bashev
Yeah that's the only point I can see is if you use max health/max stam food which is most likely where you achieve 38k max stam. You would pretty much equal the cost then and without reduction of magicka igneous shield is around 4.1k max mag. I still feel 10% back upon cast is fine especially since you would still need to rely on a decent amount of stam sustain (1k+). If this change won't happen then they need to halve dark deals return in stamina since we're suppose to have the best sustain.

psychotic13 · January 2017

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Bashev
Yeah that's the only point I can see is if you use max health/max stam food which is most likely where you achieve 38k max stam. You would pretty much equal the cost then and without reduction of magicka igneous shield is around 4.1k max mag. I still feel 10% back upon cast is fine especially since you would still need to rely on a decent amount of stam sustain (1k+). If this change won't happen then they need to halve dark deals return in stamina since we're suppose to have the best sustain.

10% is not fine, seriously

Saint_Bud · January 2017

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Just wanted to thank everyone for all the feedback in this thread. We have some updates/changes coming for the next PTS build that we’d like to share:
Obsidian Shard – Doubled the speed of the projectile.

Fiery Grip (and morphs) – This ability is no longer dodgeable. Also reduced the duration of the expedition buff by 2 seconds. (6s instead of 8s) Note: the damage portion of this ability can still be blocked.

Dragon Leap (and morphs) – This ability is no longer dodgeable. (it is an AOE after all). In addition we fixed an issue where the CC immunity while leaping was not being added correctly – you are now immune to all forms of CC, including roots while leaping. Note – players can still out range this ability while the DK is in the air if the DK leaps from max range and the player immediately runs away.

As a note, we are still evaluating the changes to Coagulating Blood. We do hear your feedback on this ability and will continue to monitor it closely on PTS.

Some nice changes to chaines. I still hope you make the animation faster for the morph what pulls to the target, its very slow and are there still problems with high-lower terain. Maybee an redisign of the morph to an real gabcloser will make it more usefull and not bugged as hell. Once a dude blamed me as cheater and reportet me, because he was not able to chain me when we were fighting on a hill. Also Dragonblood, both morphs a terrible right now. Please give a mdk a usefull heal and not force us to slot a restostaff or play like a crippled sorc or nb.

LorDrek · January 2017

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Just wanted to thank everyone for all the feedback in this thread. We have some updates/changes coming for the next PTS build that we’d like to share:
Obsidian Shard – Doubled the speed of the projectile.

Fiery Grip (and morphs) – This ability is no longer dodgeable. Also reduced the duration of the expedition buff by 2 seconds. (6s instead of 8s) Note: the damage portion of this ability can still be blocked.

Dragon Leap (and morphs) – This ability is no longer dodgeable. (it is an AOE after all). In addition we fixed an issue where the CC immunity while leaping was not being added correctly – you are now immune to all forms of CC, including roots while leaping. Note – players can still out range this ability while the DK is in the air if the DK leaps from max range and the player immediately runs away.

As a note, we are still evaluating the changes to Coagulating Blood. We do hear your feedback on this ability and will continue to monitor it closely on PTS.

Miss decrease cost standart of might.

Veg · January 2017

ManDraKE wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

[*] Fiery Grip (and morphs) – This ability is no longer dodgeable. Also reduced the duration of the expedition buff by 2 seconds. (6s instead of 8s) Note: the damage portion of this ability can still be blocked.

undoggeable gap-close? really? Is that what mDK needed?

Seems like we learn nothing from lotus fan....

Veg wrote: »

Making leap undodgeable is nice but it does nothing to make it a valid kill mechanic ability. The damage simply doesn't compete with dawnbreaker. Take flight still does less damage than dawnbreaker in the first frame of damage since the dot from dawnbreaker starts when the ability hits the targets..

and why leap should compete in damage with dawnbreaker? Leap have a lot of utility, the ability to disrupt groups by jumping from distance with a big aoe stun and damage. If you want burst, go for dawnbreaker, if you want utility in open world go for leap, simple as that.

For take flight it is arguable that it shouldn't out perform dawnbreaker since it would have to do way too much damage. Keep in mind that anyone can use dawnbreaker but only dk's can use take flight. Yet the ultimate that everyone can use is better...

F-leap on the other hand has very good reasons to out perform dawnbreaker. mDK's do not have access to other forms of burst damage whether thats an execute or just a hard hitting ability. Dawnbreaker can be animation cancelled into an execute making the best kill mechanic's in pvp. Leap can not be animation cancelled. mDK's cannot use a burst damage ability right after leap so we have to rely on leap finishing off the target or leaving them with less than 2k health.

mDK's also have no mobility so we cannot spec into damage like other classes can. no matter what we do, we'll end up with less damage. That would be fine if we could at least get 1 kill mechanic but we cant. We can be usefull as a tank with fassallas and shifting standard so we put a 80% healing received debuff on groups. But why should that be the only thing we do?

Only having one use in pvp means less people will play that class. Zenimax can go on for days about how anyone can play any role. Lets make that true and give mDK's 1 single kill mechanic.

Drummerx04 · January 2017

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Just wanted to thank everyone for all the feedback in this thread. We have some updates/changes coming for the next PTS build that we’d like to share:
Obsidian Shard – Doubled the speed of the projectile.

Fiery Grip (and morphs) – This ability is no longer dodgeable. Also reduced the duration of the expedition buff by 2 seconds. (6s instead of 8s) Note: the damage portion of this ability can still be blocked.

Dragon Leap (and morphs) – This ability is no longer dodgeable. (it is an AOE after all). In addition we fixed an issue where the CC immunity while leaping was not being added correctly – you are now immune to all forms of CC, including roots while leaping. Note – players can still out range this ability while the DK is in the air if the DK leaps from max range and the player immediately runs away.

As a note, we are still evaluating the changes to Coagulating Blood. We do hear your feedback on this ability and will continue to monitor it closely on PTS.

Are you telling me that while I am in the process of being zerged down that a chain spamming dk can now pull me back into the Hurricane Wrobel-Destro Ult-Proc Set-Annihilation... mid dodge roll?

xblackroxe · January 2017

code65536 wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Fiery Grip (and morphs) – This ability is no longer dodgeable. Also reduced the duration of the expedition buff by 2 seconds. (6s instead of 8s) Note: the damage portion of this ability can still be blocked.

Wait, does that apply to NPC chains as well? Not being able to dodge to avoid the Flame Knight's chains in vMA stage 8 round 4 is going to annoying.

Abilities from mobs dont change. E.g. The templar mobs in dsa still use the old jabs that cc on the last hit.

RoamingRiverElk · January 2017

Ishammael wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Just wanted to thank everyone for all the feedback in this thread. We have some updates/changes coming for the next PTS build that we’d like to share:
Obsidian Shard – Doubled the speed of the projectile.

Fiery Grip (and morphs) – This ability is no longer dodgeable. Also reduced the duration of the expedition buff by 2 seconds. (6s instead of 8s) Note: the damage portion of this ability can still be blocked.

Dragon Leap (and morphs) – This ability is no longer dodgeable. (it is an AOE after all). In addition we fixed an issue where the CC immunity while leaping was not being added correctly – you are now immune to all forms of CC, including roots while leaping. Note – players can still out range this ability while the DK is in the air if the DK leaps from max range and the player immediately runs away.

As a note, we are still evaluating the changes to Coagulating Blood. We do hear your feedback on this ability and will continue to monitor it closely on PTS.

While these are all fine changes, they won't affect much. I sincerely hope you have more in mind for mDK because the changes in this patch are just so unimaginative and uninteresting.

RE: Shard. Even with increased speed will unlikely see much play because Fossilize is so good (off balance, root, goes through block). The heal morph is begging to be used... but it just won't be.

RE: Grip. Still won't see play for several reasons. (1) it doesn't take you forward immediately like all other gap closers, (2) still susceptible to z-axis issues, (3) no room on a mDK skill bar for gap closer in addition to a CC.

RE: Dragon Leap. The physical dmg variant is still strictly inferior to Dawnbreaker, both in terms of damage and the "speed" at which the ability can be fired (Dawnbreaker can be animation canceled). The fire morph may see a little play, but Fossilize-->meteor will still be mDK kill combo because it enables you to stack up the damage from several abilities at once.

Other stuff:
Inferno. This skill used to be awesome (in 1.5). Now its strictly inferior to magelight. Bring back the original inferno.

All in all, mDK has been completely left behind by the sweeping gameplay changes since 1.6. The class simply doesn't function as it seems to be intended: melee "tanky" fighter with great sustain but mediocre damage. Strongly suggest that y'all really start to rethink overall balance and class vision across the board. There are several skills in each class that simply aren't used which could be re-purposed.

THIS.

Grip. Z-axis issues. No room on skill bar for gap closer that doesn't CC.

Dragon Leap. Can you now *activate* the ultimate while you are rooted? Or does the immunity only apply *after* you have managed to activate the skill? Because that's the difference between me using the skill or not using it. Though the new invisibats are still competing with this skill directly.

DK skills still cost too much on a magicka DK.

The Wings have been nerfed so much they're but a shadow of what they used to be. I never thought I'd take them off my bar, but once crushing shock isn't reflected... I really don't know whether they'll be worth slotting anymore.

MaxwellC · January 2017

@psychotic13
Ok so if 10% is too much then we can compromise with this instead. How about reducing the cost of igneous shield to 3500 (without any reductions in play). The cost of this skill that is suppose to aid our stamina regen alongside providing it's buffs is pretty high as with all of our skills in general.

IxskullzxI · January 2017

Why is there so much hate for leaps damage now? It's tooltitp is pretty high already?

MaxwellC · January 2017

@IxskullzxI
Well the tooltip for the magic morph is pretty low it's like 13-14k. If they increased the damage to 20k it would be better imo.

Kilandros · January 2017

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Just wanted to thank everyone for all the feedback in this thread. We have some updates/changes coming for the next PTS build that we’d like to share:
Obsidian Shard – Doubled the speed of the projectile.

Fiery Grip (and morphs) – This ability is no longer dodgeable. Also reduced the duration of the expedition buff by 2 seconds. (6s instead of 8s) Note: the damage portion of this ability can still be blocked.

Dragon Leap (and morphs) – This ability is no longer dodgeable. (it is an AOE after all). In addition we fixed an issue where the CC immunity while leaping was not being added correctly – you are now immune to all forms of CC, including roots while leaping. Note – players can still out range this ability while the DK is in the air if the DK leaps from max range and the player immediately runs away.

As a note, we are still evaluating the changes to Coagulating Blood. We do hear your feedback on this ability and will continue to monitor it closely on PTS.

Rich,

1: Obsidian Shard change won't do much. Petrify is our main CC and we don't have bar space for another one.

2: Fiery Grip change is good and I'll have to check its consistency. I still think we need a gap closer + stun akin to Invasion (that's where a secondary cc would make sense for DKs btw). Honestly, you should consider dropping the major expedition on Chains and instead adding a 1 second root to the target and a 50% chance to set them off balance. That would make chains really useful.

3: Leap change is good, thanks.

4: I still think mDK suffers from poor sustain and needs some buffs to its passives.

5: #MakeInfernoGreatAgain

Brrrofski · January 2017

IxskullzxI wrote: »

Why is there so much hate for leaps damage now? It's tooltitp is pretty high already?

Dawn breaker is better on a stam dk, fossilize and meteor will still be way better on a magica dk probably.

IxskullzxI · January 2017

MaxwellC wrote: »

@IxskullzxI
Well the tooltip for the magic morph is pretty low it's like 13-14k. If they increased the damage to 20k it would be better imo.

Dude on last page says he's getting 15-16. 13-16k isnt that bad.

Veg · January 2017

IxskullzxI wrote: »

Why is there so much hate for leaps damage now? It's tooltitp is pretty high already?

It's mainly beacuse mDK's are tired of tanking and want to be able to fight other players. We have no reliable kill mechanics. Even meteor doesn't work anymore because it costs too much.

The change to F-leap making it do fire damage means the combat team is trying to get us somewhere. We need to make it clear that this ultimate CAN be a viable kill mechanic that is not overpowered like the destro ult. All we need is for the damage shield to be replaced with a DoT.

IxskullzxI wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

@IxskullzxI
Well the tooltip for the magic morph is pretty low it's like 13-14k. If they increased the damage to 20k it would be better imo.

Dude on last page says he's getting 15-16. 13-16k isnt that bad.

It is bad. That is the only burst damage we have. No execute and no other hard hitting abilities. Dawnbreaker doesn't kill people on its own. using it with an execute does. We dont have that execute so we need to make up for it somehow. Those tool tips also only hit players for 4-6k damage.

Ishammael · January 2017

IxskullzxI wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

@IxskullzxI
Well the tooltip for the magic morph is pretty low it's like 13-14k. If they increased the damage to 20k it would be better imo.

Dude on last page says he's getting 15-16. 13-16k isnt that bad.

It actually is pretty bad. Compare it against the 50 ult (soon to be 70) ult cost of Incap.

DBoS will have a ~15k instant hit with a ~15k DoT for the same price. Plus it can be animation canceled. The reason this occurs is because DBoS scales with both Mighty AND Thaumagturge.

the initial hit on Meteor will perform roughly equivalent to fire leap. But, meteor can be timed with other damage abilities and it scales with Elem Expert and Thaum. It only takes 2-3 ticks of the Meteor ground DoT to double the damage you'll get out of it.

IxskullzxI · January 2017

Well you did did take a 7800 leap there while wearing heavy armor and i assume the caster was heavy as well? What if someone is in light armor and invests into damage? I think giving it more damage would be too much. Also, whip does hit pretty hard.

Armitas · January 2017

Two more projectiles effectively removed from reflect.

Piercing Javelin (and morphs) – Increased the speed of the projectile by 40%
Obsidian Shard – Doubled the speed of the projectile.

This leaves the total use of wings as a reactive skill to hard cast frags, snipes from people you are engaged in combat with, and long range overloads. At high cost and 4second duration it's very much a reactive skill. At the very least double the duration to 8 seconds to make it more passive than reactive.

I also share the same concern as @Drummerx04 with fiery grip and unrelenting going through dodge. If you don't have mist the first thing you are going to do to flee the destro is dodge roll. I really think the dodge immunity should only be applied to empowering chains.

IxskullzxI · January 2017

Ishammael wrote: »

IxskullzxI wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

@IxskullzxI
Well the tooltip for the magic morph is pretty low it's like 13-14k. If they increased the damage to 20k it would be better imo.

Dude on last page says he's getting 15-16. 13-16k isnt that bad.

It actually is pretty bad. Compare it against the 50 ult (soon to be 70) ult cost of Incap.

DBoS will have a ~15k instant hit with a ~15k DoT for the same price. Plus it can be animation canceled. The reason this occurs is because DBoS scales with both Mighty AND Thaumagturge.

the initial hit on Meteor will perform roughly equivalent to fire leap. But, meteor can be timed with other damage abilities and it scales with Elem Expert and Thaum. It only takes 2-3 ticks of the Meteor ground DoT to double the damage you'll get out of it.

True. Maybe leap could benefit from a change. Keep the damage shield or replace it for another effect?

Minalan · January 2017

Ishammael wrote: »

IxskullzxI wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

@IxskullzxI
Well the tooltip for the magic morph is pretty low it's like 13-14k. If they increased the damage to 20k it would be better imo.

Dude on last page says he's getting 15-16. 13-16k isnt that bad.

It actually is pretty bad. Compare it against the 50 ult (soon to be 70) ult cost of Incap.

DBoS will have a ~15k instant hit with a ~15k DoT for the same price. Plus it can be animation canceled. The reason this occurs is because DBoS scales with both Mighty AND Thaumagturge.

the initial hit on Meteor will perform roughly equivalent to fire leap. But, meteor can be timed with other damage abilities and it scales with Elem Expert and Thaum. It only takes 2-3 ticks of the Meteor ground DoT to double the damage you'll get out of it.

Meteor is usually just blocked, and it does nothing.