Feedback to vMA Loot Changes

Preyfar · January 2017

Not only that, I saw no mention of updates to the Charged trait for VMA in the itemization updates for VMA. I don't know how ZOS can even REMOTELY think that the Charge trait on VMA weapons is worth anything. It does LITERALLY nothing. At all. It's like receiving a VMA weapon without a trait.

ZOS needs to remove the Charged trait from the drop list altogether.

Armitas · January 2017

They should make the game credits start rolling if you open the chest and get a sharpened inferno staff.

Alpheu5 · January 2017

Artis wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Beyond that, Maelstrom runs are costly and provide no benefit. In the time it takes to do one Maelstrom run, I can blow through both vHRC and vAA (in which I am 4 times more likely to get a useful Sharpened IA/VO piece), earn $24k gold in Undaunted Plunder, open 10 chests and 40 heavy sacks, and get a couple of motifs worth $15k+ every week.

But hey, at least I got a Powered Maul and a Charged Sword & Shield of Permafrost out of my leaderboard rewards this week. That's 2 tempering alloys and a rosin if I'm lucky.

And you have an option to do exactly that. Nobody forces you to run vMA.

Yes, let it be 5 months. That's what I'm saying, in a few months-year - EVERYONE in endgame will have them. That ruins the purpose. Now explain why you think nothing should be rare, where rare obviously means that only a few % of people have it.
Also, you having hundreds of them doesn't mean they are not rare, if others don't have them. Besides, I bet most of them aren't sharpened.

And what's the problem? I agree, let's introduce tokens. But why postpone the inevitable. Let's just make 1 run grant 1 weapon.

You grossly overestimate the aptitude and fortitude of the general community as individuals. Unlike trial sets that someone can be carried through and have 11 additional sources of RNG per roll, or 3 additional in group dungeons, vMA combat falls solely on the responsibility of the player, with the entire thing culminating in a single roll. I completed vMA once and swore myself off of it until a more reliable system is put in place, because I know that my time could be better spent elsewhere by doing typical multiplayer things like helping friends level, running group dungeons for fun and materials, raging in Cyrodiil, ERP, etc.

I can't justify sinking that much time for an item that isn't even game-changing.

Lukums1 · January 2017

Mmm...

I think the change is good for players still chasing weapons.

I think it's funny how some are like "oh no!, now my guild leader will really tell me to get my ass into maelstrom because now the daggers come in pairs"... some times people will never be happy and greatful that this change came into play.

I ran vMA 300 times before I got my 2 sharpen daggers... now I have 10+ of them.

I do firmly believe as a vMA (veteran) if you will, that my 500-600-700+ runs have netted me a fair amount of sharpen.

But just so people are aware:

x2 Destro Flame Sharpen
x1 Lightning Sharpen
x8 Maul Sharpen
x12 Dagger Sharpen
x9 Axe Sharpen
x11 Bow Sharpen

I still think that is VERY VERY low RNG considering my runs.

I would honest to god tell people, that if they really aren't prepared to do at least 100 runs... don't bother going down this path.

LiquidPony · January 2017

Artis wrote:

And you have an option to do exactly that. Nobody forces you to run vMA.

@Artis spare me the sophomoric nonsense. No one is truly "forced" to do anything. I don't have to play the game. You don't have to play the game. You don't have to comment on every Maelstrom drop thread ever posted, but you choose to do so.

I actually enjoy the arena. I run it for the satisfaction of improving my scores and mastering difficult content.

Unfortunately, due to ZOS's seeming inability to balance classes and builds and weapon traits in the game, I sort of need to have Sharpened Maelstrom weapons in order to be a competitive stam DPS in the end-game.

And obviously ZOS agrees that something is awry with the current loot table, since this thread is a discussion of changes made in U13 that will increase the odds of getting getting the more desirable items.

Artis wrote:

Let's just make 1 run grant 1 weapon.

Artis wrote:

Now explain why you think nothing should be rare, where rare obviously means that only a few % of people have it.

Maybe you missed the memo, but 1 run does grant 1 weapon.

Of course, that's not what you actually meant. What you actually meant to do was to construct a strawman meant to show how silly we are for wanting everyone to have ideal Maelstrom weapons. Which, of course, is not the case, but I understand that it's easier for you to defend your position if you misrepresent the other side of the argument.

Artis wrote:

Besides, I bet most of them aren't sharpened.

That's very insightful.

Artis wrote:

I agree, let's introduce tokens.

Who, exactly, are you agreeing with? I said right there in my prior post that I don't want a token system.

What I want is balance. Stamina-based characters need Maelstrom weapons for competitive DPS (a bow being the minimum threshold); Magicka-based characters do not. There's room for improvement there. Only one weapon trait in the game is worth running, which is silly. There's room for improvement there, too. And some of the Maelstrom weapons are essentially useless regardless of trait (swords, maces, ice staves). More room for improvement.

As I already said, my suggested "fixes" would address the issues above. Buff the offensive traits (specifically Precise & Nirnhoned) to be closer to Sharpened in overall damage potential (Sharpened can still be "BiS" if that's desirable for some reason, but narrow the gap). Remove the useless Tanking enchantment and put the Cruel Flurry enchantment on swords and maces. Balance stamina and magicka appropriately such that Sharpened Maelstrom weapons aren't required to put up competitive stamina DPS.

Now, since I suspect that ZOS is not going to address the balance issues above, I would advocate for the final suggestion from my earlier comment in this thread: improve the quality of rewards for Weekly Leaderboard finishes and/or Flawless runs (both perhaps time-limited to 45 minutes or predicated on a minimum score of 550,000 or thereabouts, and note that I'm not advocating for these criteria specifically but rather the general concept). That method allows us to continue imposing artificial rarity on BiS Maelstrom weapons while also rewarding skill and effort. I agree that (ideal) Maelstrom weapons should be rare. I disagree that the rarity should be imposed entirely by RNG.

Banana · January 2017

Still to much RNG for me. Im not going back. Try again ZOS

Artis · January 2017

LiquidPony wrote: »

@Artis spare me the sophomoric nonsense. No one is truly "forced" to do anything. I don't have to play the game. You don't have to play the game. You don't have to comment on every Maelstrom drop thread ever posted, but you choose to do so.

I actually enjoy the arena. I run it for the satisfaction of improving my scores and mastering difficult content.

Exactly my point. You don't have to play the game, let alone run vma. Yeah I will keep commenting until yall stop trying to ruin the game with handing perfect trait-type combos to everyone.

LiquidPony wrote: »

Unfortunately, due to ZOS's seeming inability to balance classes and builds and weapon traits in the game, I sort of need to have Sharpened Maelstrom weapons in order to be a competitive stam DPS in the end-game.

And obviously ZOS agrees that something is awry with the current loot table, since this thread is a discussion of changes made in U13 that will increase the odds of getting getting the more desirable items.

No you don't need weapons. You also don't need to be competitive or a stam DPS. That's what you want, not what you need.

Yes, the loot table was dumb, because not every type-trait combos had equal chances to drop. Now it's fixed.

LiquidPony wrote: »

Maybe you missed the memo, but 1 run does grant 1 weapon.

Of course, that's not what you actually meant. What you actually meant to do was to construct a strawman meant to show how silly we are for wanting everyone to have ideal Maelstrom weapons. Which, of course, is not the case, but I understand that it's easier for you to defend your position if you misrepresent the other side of the argument.
.

The idea isn't misinterpreted. That's exactly what you want. For everyone to be guaranteed to have a weapon of their choice after a certain number of runs. You still never explain why not having rare, not guaranteed, gear is good for the game.

LiquidPony wrote: »

Who, exactly, are you agreeing with? I said right there in my prior post that I don't want a token system.

With all of you whiners of course.

LiquidPony wrote: »

What I want is balance. Stamina-based characters need Maelstrom weapons for competitive DPS (a bow being the minimum threshold); Magicka-based characters do not. There's room for improvement there. Only one weapon trait in the game is worth running, which is silly. There's room for improvement there, too. And some of the Maelstrom weapons are essentially useless regardless of trait (swords, maces, ice staves). More room for improvement.

No if you wanted balance you would ask to make stamina builds good with less contribution of those weapons. To buff stamina and nerf weapons. But no, you want to get guaranteed weapons. These are you words:

LiquidPony wrote: »

I have to very strongly disagree. 50 vMA runs is probably 100+ hours of playtime. That ought to be enough to ensure at least one useful item.

LiquidPony wrote: »

As I already said, my suggested "fixes" would address the issues above. Buff the offensive traits (specifically Precise & Nirnhoned) to be closer to Sharpened in overall damage potential (Sharpened can still be "BiS" if that's desirable for some reason, but narrow the gap). Remove the useless Tanking enchantment and put the Cruel Flurry enchantment on swords and maces. Balance stamina and magicka appropriately such that Sharpened Maelstrom weapons aren't required to put up competitive stamina DPS.

Now, since I suspect that ZOS is not going to address the balance issues above, I would advocate for the final suggestion from my earlier comment in this thread: improve the quality of rewards for Weekly Leaderboard finishes and/or Flawless runs (both perhaps time-limited to 45 minutes or predicated on a minimum score of 550,000 or thereabouts, and note that I'm not advocating for these criteria specifically but rather the general concept). That method allows us to continue imposing artificial rarity on BiS Maelstrom weapons while also rewarding skill and effort. I agree that (ideal) Maelstrom weapons should be rare. I disagree that the rarity should be imposed entirely by RNG.

Yeah changes in stats should be made, not in RNG. And no, of course the rarity should be imposed by RNG. That's one thing ZOS got right. Give 100% players a 5% chance to get weapons rather than giving 100% chance to 5% of players (rewarding "skill")- that way everyone has a shot and no one can complain that only hardcore top 5% is catered for. And still only 5% players have those weapons. That's was a brilliant idea.

f047ys3v3n · January 2017

My thoughts (and I now have full sharp stam weapons and a sharp inferno so I really don't need anything):

1) The change is in the right direction but realistically it is a very small change to very poor RNG for those looking to get their sharp inferno or now perhaps also sharp shock. I am not sure exactly how the new RNG works as there are a couple of different ways what they said could be done but it will still be close to 1/100 instead of 1/144 for the specific stave you want. That is still terribad. I think 1/20 is about as bad as it should be. People should not be endlessly desperately running content for the really really important thing they want. This is very frustrating and rage inducing.

2) Now that I have test dummies on the PTS to test I can tell you a vMA stave is only worth ~1.1k dps. Don't sweat it. It is not that important.

3) Stam PVE is not that great with vMA weapons in homestead and worthless without. I guess you still need them to do stam in PVE. Stam vMA weapons are really amazing in PVE but the best PVE DPS is really going to be all magica after homestead. We did some testing on the dummies. Stam DPS got hurt, bad. The good news about that is that you don't have to sweat stam weapons either as stam even with them is not that great.

4) I don't see a lot of vMA completes per week anymore. Maybe 120 or so NB's (and mNB's are very smooth in there) do it on NA in one run so as to post some score to the weekly. I think most of the folks that were willing to grind have the loot and most who were not are not going to be enticed by a 1/3rd or so change to RNG that was really almost unfathomably bad. To get vMA complete numbers up will require some gold or saleable item rewards or very much better RNG. I tend to run it once a week for double rewards on the weekly and to stay fresh for the next level cap update on the, now looking very shaky, assumption that they will get a clue on RNG and rewards. We will see if they are right and lots run it like Wrothgar week but I kinda doubt it. I'll probably still run it once a week. I'm certainly not motivated by the change to do it a bunch to go after the one shock vMA staff that I don't really need but would kinda would like to try out.

Decado · January 2017

Don't know why anyone bothers with the arena anymore it's pointless the RNG is so *** there is zero point in grinding it for your weapon, I already told everyone my opinion on this and speaking to a friend of mine who happens to be a raid leader I said to him if anyone tells
Me to go back in that arena and get my sharpened weapons they will get told in no uncertain terms to f**k off I refuse point blank to do it,

As for arguing with @Artis I wouldn't bother I've seen him pop up in every thread about vMA to call everyone who wants something balanced to stop being self entitled whiners he's clearly happy with the arena rewarding the lucky and not the skilled he's decided that's a fair way to do a reward system a lottery and anyone who disagrees wants to ruin the game,

Completely ignoring the fact that if people don't have the weapons then most of the top guilds won't give them a second look in, want to raid competitively and go for number 1? Roll this dice and we will see if your allowed, oh I'm sorry you didn't roll 10 6s in a row? You can't go for number one because that other player did, better luck next time, you sit in the room alone on this MMO and keep throwing that dice while we raid maybe you'll get your weapon on the next 6 months while we run the content, it not well there is always the chance that the next lot of weapons will be released this year and they will be better than vMA so please try again in 1 years time

Personally I think he's the one trying to ruin the game by enforcing some random luck based chance at rarity.

If you want rarity it should be skill based not luck

VarilRau · January 2017

Make vMA just drop the glyphs. You have a decent change to get the enchant for you to put into whatever. If you can complete vMA you are ready for endgame/know your character well enough. Clearing vMA is a challenge, then it becomes a chore. Also every time you change your gear, you will want a new enchant, so you will have to rerun it anyway. Atm. Once you are done, you will never go back.. at least as long as vMA weapons are meta and when they are not, even less incentive to run it.

Zedrian · January 2017

If they could also remove the completely useless Charged and Training traits we would already have slightly better odds. (1/12 * 1/7 = 1/84, instead of 1/12 * 1/9 = 108). There is no valid justification of use to have these two traits on vMA or vDSA weapons.

The RNG is discouraging as whole, not encouraging, especially when I find myself getting more useless infaillible aether bows on trials, or when I recently dropped the Sharpened Infaillible Aether Frost Staff, and 2 days later we get the 2.7.0 patch notes... And yet I prefer running vAA/HRC/SO a 100 times with friends than doing vMA 100 times alone.

The social aspect of running end game content with friends is keeping me from quitting the game, not the RNG with a minuscule hope of getting a drop I want. And to be fair I have only ran 9 vMA when I could of done it daily for a couple months now, but I know my odds and my brain says "not worth it, I would rather have a good time tonight".

Molec · January 2017

Decado wrote: »

As for arguing with @Artis I wouldn't bother I've seen him pop up in every thread about vMA to call everyone who wants something balanced to stop being self entitled whiners he's clearly happy with the arena rewarding the lucky and not the skilled he's decided that's a fair way to do a reward system a lottery and anyone who disagrees wants to ruin the game,
Completely ignoring the fact that if people don't have the weapons then most of the top guilds won't give them a second look in, want to raid competitively and go for number 1? Roll this dice and we will see if your allowed, oh I'm sorry you didn't roll 10 6s in a row? You can't go for number one because that other player did, better luck next time, you sit in the room alone on this MMO and keep throwing that dice while we raid maybe you'll get your weapon on the next 6 months while we run the content, it not well there is always the chance that the next lot of weapons will be released this year and they will be better than vMA so please try again in 1 years time

Personally I think he's the one trying to ruin the game by enforcing some random luck based chance at rarity.

If you want rarity it should be skill based not luck

He's either a dev closely related to the loot system/vMA or he's a PFP (paid forum poster), if neither of those then he has (for some bizarre reason) a serious desire to see the end game of ESO totally dominated by vMA due to the current trait imbalance (if the player wishes to be at all competitive in end game group content). The best advise I can give anybody who dislikes the rng fest that ESO has become is to cancel your membership and find a new game to populate as ZOS aren't changing their stance on this issue. This game has such a massive potential however there is far more cash to be earned off casuals and ZOS will be milking them like a supermarket dairy supplier milks their cows. It's the ideal Gravy Train.

Arthg · January 2017

Carbonised wrote: »

ZOS has learned from behavioural psychology that handing random rewards out instead of guaranteed ones increases the average player time invested in their game, in this case in the vMA trial.

You nailed it, mate.
The rest is useless time-wasting chit-chat.

As fair as a token system might be, there won't be one.

luen79rwb17_ESO · January 2017

These patch notes just confirms what many of us knew due to drops... It was not only RNG it was a crappy/unfair/terribly designed RNG. All those resto staves and S&B were not mere coincidence or "bad luck" as some people stated.

I feel like I've been wasting my time doing those runs on a system pre-designed with the odds against me

In terms of rewarding skill, make the desired weapons accesible to players with flawless conqueror achievement. There's no better proof of your skill and knowledge of the trial than this tittle.

I'd vote for a token system if it was retroactive. No way I'm gonna accept starting from zero again.

Pallio · January 2017

The biggest problem with vMA is the traits, old school elites farmed it back in the days of God traits. Now regardless what drops 99% of the time it will be decon trash due to bad traits. Token system would be great 50 runs = get 1 good item you need. Doesn't matter what order the loot chances of dropping are etc.

LiquidPony · January 2017

@Artis you know the old adage about "two ears and one mouth," right?

Artis wrote:

No you don't need weapons. You also don't need to be competitive or a stam DPS. That's what you want, not what you need.

What I said was: "I sort of need to have Sharpened Maelstrom weapons in order to be a competitive stam DPS in the end-game."

Now, since maybe English maybe isn't your native language, I will explain what that means.

In order to is a subordinating conjunction, connecting the independent clause ("I ... need to have Sharpened Maelstrom Weapons") with the dependent clause ("to be a competitive stam DPS in the end-game"). The purpose of the subordinating conjunction therein is to establish a condition (the dependent clause) for which the assertion (the independent clause) is true.

I hope you enjoyed your 5th-grade grammar refresher.

Artis wrote:

No if you wanted balance you would ask to make stamina builds good with less contribution of those weapons. To buff stamina and nerf weapons.

You literally quoted me saying "Balance stamina and magicka appropriately such that Sharpened Maelstrom weapons aren't required to put up competitive stamina DPS." Are you OK?

Your error is that you lump everyone who disagrees with the way Maelstrom weapons are implemented into a single category of "hurr durr gimme muh weapons now." This hackneyed strawman serves no purpose other than to reinforce your own beliefs.

I see a problem: the need for certain builds to run Sharpened Maelstrom weapons in order to (there's that pesky subordinating conjunction again) put up competitive DPS in the end-game is a reflection of poor balance. That imbalance can be fixed in any number of ways. I may prefer one method to another, but in the end, my only concern is removing said imbalance, be it by changing the loot table, providing skill-based rewards, or improving trait or class balance.

Artis · January 2017

Decado wrote: »

As for arguing with @Artis I wouldn't bother I've seen him pop up in every thread about vMA to call everyone who wants something balanced to stop being self entitled whiners he's clearly happy with the arena rewarding the lucky and not the skilled he's decided that's a fair way to do a reward system a lottery and anyone who disagrees wants to ruin the game,

Yep, calling things by their names.

LiquidPony wrote: »

Now, since maybe English maybe isn't your native language, I will explain what that means.

In order to is a subordinating conjunction, connecting the independent clause ("I ... need to have Sharpened Maelstrom Weapons") with the dependent clause ("to be a competitive stam DPS in the end-game"). The purpose of the subordinating conjunction therein is to establish a condition (the dependent clause) for which the assertion (the independent clause) is true.

I hope you enjoyed your 5th-grade grammar refresher.

You literally quoted me saying "Balance stamina and magicka appropriately such that Sharpened Maelstrom weapons aren't required to put up competitive stamina DPS." Are you OK?

No, I quoted you saying "50 vMA runs is probably 100+ hours of playtime. That ought to be enough to ensure at least one useful item." Not at all what you said I quoted.

Now since logic is something unfamiliar to you, I'll explain. You want weapons to be guaranteed, which if - we take limit with time going to infinity - means that everyone will have them. And yeah, you dependent clause explanation is irrelevant and doesn't change much. You don't need to be a competitive stam DPS in the-end game, so it's not an excuse to "need" vma weapons.

The questions you both still didn't answer.
1. How many people in end-game should have something so that you can call it rare? Percentage - 5%? 50%? 100%?
2. How can you keep it that rare without RNG in the game that has no dungeon cooldowns? Mind you, ZOS has to make money and keep everyone pleased. So why giving 5% chance to 100% players is worse than giving 100% chance to 5% players? (assuming rare means 5% players have it).
3. If we don't want anything rare - why? Why is it better to turn the game into a MOBA where everyone wears the same thing and runs the same build?

LiquidPony · January 2017

Artis wrote:

LiquidPony wrote:

You literally quoted me saying "Balance stamina and magicka appropriately such that Sharpened Maelstrom weapons aren't required to put up competitive stamina DPS." Are you OK?

No, I quoted you saying "50 vMA runs is probably 100+ hours of playtime. That ought to be enough to ensure at least one useful item." Not at all what you said I quoted.

Are you being serious right now? Please review your prior post.

Artis wrote:

With all of you whiners of course.

LiquidPony wrote:

As I already said, my suggested "fixes" would address the issues above. Buff the offensive traits (specifically Precise & Nirnhoned) to be closer to Sharpened in overall damage potential (Sharpened can still be "BiS" if that's desirable for some reason, but narrow the gap). Remove the useless Tanking enchantment and put the Cruel Flurry enchantment on swords and maces. Balance stamina and magicka appropriately such that Sharpened Maelstrom weapons aren't required to put up competitive stamina DPS.

I'm not sure there's any point to this discussion if you're going to be dishonest.

NinthPrince64 · January 2017

I am going to admit up front that I am not a big video gamer in general, but I have played a fair amount of ESO and completed vMSA 10 times (got one BiS item, sharpened dagger).

When I look at the trophies for ESO on my PS4, it says that 0.2% have completed vMSA at least once. Now, I'm not sure what the underlying population is that is used to calculate that number, but that aside, it doesn't seem like a very large number.

To be completely honest, I go back and forth on this question of the appropriate probability of getting a "good" weapon, but when I think about how few people actually complete Maelstrom even once, it seems like the probability could be higher. (That said, I think the question of the "optimal" probability is really complex.)

Artis · January 2017

LiquidPony wrote: »

Artis wrote:

LiquidPony wrote:

You literally quoted me saying "Balance stamina and magicka appropriately such that Sharpened Maelstrom weapons aren't required to put up competitive stamina DPS." Are you OK?

No, I quoted you saying "50 vMA runs is probably 100+ hours of playtime. That ought to be enough to ensure at least one useful item." Not at all what you said I quoted.

Are you being serious right now? Please review your prior post.

Artis wrote:

With all of you whiners of course.

LiquidPony wrote:

As I already said, my suggested "fixes" would address the issues above. Buff the offensive traits (specifically Precise & Nirnhoned) to be closer to Sharpened in overall damage potential (Sharpened can still be "BiS" if that's desirable for some reason, but narrow the gap). Remove the useless Tanking enchantment and put the Cruel Flurry enchantment on swords and maces. Balance stamina and magicka appropriately such that Sharpened Maelstrom weapons aren't required to put up competitive stamina DPS.

I'm not sure there's any point to this discussion if you're going to be dishonest.

Are you blind or something?

Artis wrote: »

No if you wanted balance you would ask to make stamina builds good with less contribution of those weapons. To buff stamina and nerf weapons. But no, you want to get guaranteed weapons. These are you words:

LiquidPony wrote: »

I have to very strongly disagree. 50 vMA runs is probably 100+ hours of playtime. That ought to be enough to ensure at least one useful item.

You would only suggest balance, not the quoted part if you cared about balance.

austinwalter87ub17_ESO · January 2017

I don't think there should be a token system. I do however think there should be Consumables for each weapon type, that buff the chance to get one of those specific weapons.

For example, you kill a vMA boss and he drops a fragment for a specific weapon. You consume that fragment (the buff lasts 24 hours) and it increases the chance for a successful vMA run to drop the corresponding weapon to that fragment. So if you get an inferno fragment, it increases your chances of winning an inferno staff by 5 or 10%.

But the weapon trait is still entirely random.

This way it still takes effort but simultaneously allows for you to increase your chances

LiquidPony · January 2017

Sanctimonious Troll wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Artis wrote:

LiquidPony wrote:

You literally quoted me saying "Balance stamina and magicka appropriately such that Sharpened Maelstrom weapons aren't required to put up competitive stamina DPS." Are you OK?

No, I quoted you saying "50 vMA runs is probably 100+ hours of playtime. That ought to be enough to ensure at least one useful item." Not at all what you said I quoted.

Are you being serious right now? Please review your prior post.

Artis wrote:

With all of you whiners of course.

LiquidPony wrote:

As I already said, my suggested "fixes" would address the issues above. Buff the offensive traits (specifically Precise & Nirnhoned) to be closer to Sharpened in overall damage potential (Sharpened can still be "BiS" if that's desirable for some reason, but narrow the gap). Remove the useless Tanking enchantment and put the Cruel Flurry enchantment on swords and maces. Balance stamina and magicka appropriately such that Sharpened Maelstrom weapons aren't required to put up competitive stamina DPS.

I'm not sure there's any point to this discussion if you're going to be dishonest.

Are you blind or something?

Artis wrote: »

No if you wanted balance you would ask to make stamina builds good with less contribution of those weapons. To buff stamina and nerf weapons. But no, you want to get guaranteed weapons. These are you words:

LiquidPony wrote: »

I have to very strongly disagree. 50 vMA runs is probably 100+ hours of playtime. That ought to be enough to ensure at least one useful item.

You would only suggest balance, not the quoted part if you cared about balance.

Apparently you're incapable of understanding the difference between wanting balance (which is unlikely to happen) and settling for an improved loot table (which is already happening). This is not surprising as you clearly have a greater interest in "winning" an argument of opinion than you do actually entertaining anyone else's perspective. Hence you're going to nitpick every argument to death and pat yourself on the back for "winning" via technicality. Pettifogging at its finest (or worst, for those of us who aren't trolls).

In my ideal world, there would be no question of changing the loot table because of the many reasons I've enumerated many times that you choose to quote or ignore depending on which option best fits your argument.

However, since we're not in my ideal world, and the "balance patch" includes absolutely nothing to address the imbalance between Magicka and Stamina DPS in the PvE end-game and nothing to address the weird "only Sharpened matters" weapon trait system (hence maintaining the status quo wherein Stamina DPS must have Sharpened Maelstrom weapons to put out comparable DPS), then I would settle for an improved loot table that doesn't lead to further marginalization of stam DPS builds.

You can scroll on up to my initial contribution to this thread and note that I am against a token system and my first suggestion was to re-balance weapon traits rather than adjusting the Maelstrom loot table:

LiquidPony wrote:

I don't personally want a token system. Ultimately, I'd like to see weapon traits balanced to get out of this boring Sharpened-or-bust meta we're stuck with.

Artis · January 2017

LiquidPony wrote: »

Apparently you're incapable of understanding the difference between wanting balance (which is unlikely to happen) and settling for an improved loot table (which is already happening). This is not surprising as you clearly have a greater interest in "winning" an argument of opinion than you do actually entertaining anyone else's perspective. Hence you're going to nitpick every argument to death and pat yourself on the back for "winning" via technicality. Pettifogging at its finest (or worst, for those of us who aren't trolls).

In my ideal world, there would be no question of changing the loot table because of the many reasons I've enumerated many times that you choose to quote or ignore depending on which option best fits your *** argument.

However, since we're not in my ideal world, and the "balance patch" includes absolutely nothing to address the imbalance between Magicka and Stamina DPS in the PvE end-game (hence maintaining the status quo wherein Stamina DPS must have Sharpened Maelstrom weapons to put out comparable DPS), then I would settle for an improved loot table that doesn't lead to further marginalization of stam DPS builds.

Nice try, but I'm capable of understanding anything, you are the one who aren't aware of what you're trying to do. Why do you want everyone to have the same stuff?

You still didn't answer 3 simple questions.

xblackroxe · January 2017

Artis wrote: »

Decado wrote: »

As for arguing with @Artis I wouldn't bother I've seen him pop up in every thread about vMA to call everyone who wants something balanced to stop being self entitled whiners he's clearly happy with the arena rewarding the lucky and not the skilled he's decided that's a fair way to do a reward system a lottery and anyone who disagrees wants to ruin the game,

Yep, calling things by their names.

LiquidPony wrote: »

Now, since maybe English maybe isn't your native language, I will explain what that means.

In order to is a subordinating conjunction, connecting the independent clause ("I ... need to have Sharpened Maelstrom Weapons") with the dependent clause ("to be a competitive stam DPS in the end-game"). The purpose of the subordinating conjunction therein is to establish a condition (the dependent clause) for which the assertion (the independent clause) is true.

I hope you enjoyed your 5th-grade grammar refresher.

You literally quoted me saying "Balance stamina and magicka appropriately such that Sharpened Maelstrom weapons aren't required to put up competitive stamina DPS." Are you OK?

No, I quoted you saying "50 vMA runs is probably 100+ hours of playtime. That ought to be enough to ensure at least one useful item." Not at all what you said I quoted.

Now since logic is something unfamiliar to you, I'll explain. You want weapons to be guaranteed, which if - we take limit with time going to infinity - means that everyone will have them. And yeah, you dependent clause explanation is irrelevant and doesn't change much. You don't need to be a competitive stam DPS in the-end game, so it's not an excuse to "need" vma weapons.

The questions you both still didn't answer.
1. How many people in end-game should have something so that you can call it rare? Percentage - 5%? 50%? 100%?
2. How can you keep it that rare without RNG in the game that has no dungeon cooldowns? Mind you, ZOS has to make money and keep everyone pleased. So why giving 5% chance to 100% players is worse than giving 100% chance to 5% players? (assuming rare means 5% players have it).
3. If we don't want anything rare - why? Why is it better to turn the game into a MOBA where everyone wears the same thing and runs the same build?

1. Nothing should be rare. It should be hard to get but with an end in sight, not a pure luck based lottery. The weapons dont suddenly change just because many ppl have them. Also all this talk about everybody having the weapons. Far more than half the players have never finished the arena even once or even bothered to try.
2. Refer to point 1
3. Whats making it artifically rare good for? Only to frustrate a big chunk of people.

And well technically you are right nobody is force to do anything here. But thats not the point.
The point is if you want to reach a certain goal like get #1 leaderboard scores in pve or get emperor in pvp or be a really good dueler that can win against many people on the same skill level then with the current game design there is basically 1 way to reach that.

There is a problem if you want to put out top dps on stam you simple have to run vma weps there is no way around bow+dw will probably boost your dps by 10k vs not using them. So then what you also need is those weapons all in sharpend. Again no way around.
Thats the core of the issue, 90%+ of what you drop just can be deconned cuz there is absolutely no use for it. And that needs fixing in some way. Idc how as long as it does happen.

LiquidPony · January 2017

Artis wrote:

Nice try, but I'm capable of understanding anything ...

Guffaw. Of course you are.

Artis wrote:

You still didn't answer 3 simple questions.

Simple minds seek simple answers to complex issues. But I digress.

1. I don't care.
2. Already answered:

LiquidPony wrote:

I agree that (ideal) Maelstrom weapons should be rare. I disagree that the rarity should be imposed entirely by RNG.

3. Again, already answered (a brief aside here to note that it gets really old having to constantly repeat myself):

LiquidPony wrote:

I'm fine with Maelstrom weapons being rare.

f047ys3v3n · January 2017

NinthPrince64 wrote: »

When I look at the trophies for ESO on my PS4, it says that 0.2% have completed vMSA at least once. Now, I'm not sure what the underlying population is that is used to calculate that number, but that aside, it doesn't seem like a very large number.

Wow, that is far more than I would have thought. I would have guessed .02%. I wonder what the numbers are on x-box or PC as I understand on PS4 you can "shareplay" and basically have someone else do it for you for the achieve. I expect paying gold for this is pretty common as "shareplay" is allowed in the terms of use even if the payment of gold probably isn't. I'm sure it is purely a "tip". I have been told that despite the risks this even happens on PC and having encountered some pugs with the title in PUG runs who didn't understand the first thing about the game, I tend to believe it though I do not think, with the risks involved, that pay for play is probably all that common on PC though having friends run though for you probably is.

Artis · January 2017

xblackroxe wrote: »

1. Nothing should be rare. It should be hard to get but with an end in sight, not a pure luck based lottery. The weapons dont suddenly change just because many ppl have them. Also all this talk about everybody having the weapons. Far more than half the players have never finished the arena even once or even bothered to try.
2. Refer to point 1
3. Whats making it artifically rare good for? Only to frustrate a big chunk of people.

And well technically you are right nobody is force to do anything here. But thats not the point.
The point is if you want to reach a certain goal like get #1 leaderboard scores in pve or get emperor in pvp or be a really good dueler that can win against many people on the same skill level then with the current game design there is basically 1 way to reach that.

There is a problem if you want to put out top dps on stam you simple have to run vma weps there is no way around bow+dw will probably boost your dps by 10k vs not using them. So then what you also need is those weapons all in sharpend. Again no way around.
Thats the core of the issue, 90%+ of what you drop just can be deconned cuz there is absolutely no use for it. And that needs fixing in some way. Idc how as long as it does happen.

1. Why not? That gives people something to dream about getting. And makes certain gear more valuable than other = makes the process of gearing up more meaningful. If everything is easily available, then what's the point? There will be no gear differentiation very soon, that will be just like a session-based MOBA, not an MMORPG. p.s. Not saying your opinion is invalid, but I just don't understand why you want ESO to become more of a moba or even a shooter where everyone has the same gear.
2. Players who didn't complete vma don't count. I'm talking and asking about end-game people.
3. Guess I explained it in 1. To make gear meaningful. If everything is easy to get, then what's the point of it anyway?

Yes, and you are not forced to reach that goal. If you want to - you can do it. And I don't think PvP is relevant here at all. VMA weapons are not used there all that often. Emperor doesn't require those weapons at all. Eh, I got Emperor without using them, for example.

90% of drop being deconstructed is a good point. I totally agree that useless traits should be removed or reworked to be useful. I have no idea why we can loot training weapons.

LiquidPony wrote: »

Artis wrote:

Nice try, but I'm capable of understanding anything ...

Guffaw. Of course you are.

Artis wrote:

You still didn't answer 3 simple questions.

Simple minds seek simple answers to complex issues. But I digress.

1. I don't care.
2. Already answered:

LiquidPony wrote:

I agree that (ideal) Maelstrom weapons should be rare. I disagree that the rarity should be imposed entirely by RNG.

3. Again, already answered (a brief aside here to note that it gets really old having to constantly repeat myself):

LiquidPony wrote:

I'm fine with Maelstrom weapons being rare.

Lmao, pathetic. Have nothing to say? Try to insult an opponent. You seriously need to just leave if you can't have a discussion. Those elementary-school tactics of arguing are not impressing anyone.

1. That's not an answer. If you agree that they should be rare, explain what you see as rare. How many people should have them more or less?
2. Then how should it be imposed? Again - what's better - a 5% chance to all players, or 100% chance to 5% players?
3. No one is gonna search around for some fragments in your incoherent rants to construct an answer. The whole point was to have 3 of those answers together so there's something to talk about.So if you're fine with them being rare - then answer: how rare should they be(back to question 1) and how to maintain that rarity (considering the content is scaled and the game is growing horizontally)?

[Deleted User] · January 2017

Hello everyone,

This post is to inform you that we've felt it necessary to close this thread. The reason being that it appears as a quitting thread, which is against the Forum Rules. Though we greatly appreciate the feedback you had provided before leaving. We wish you much luck on your journey in new worlds, we hope that if you one day return to Nirn that it will be more to your liking.

Thank you for understanding.