PTS Feedback Thread for Dragonknight Balance Improvements

Armitas · January 2017

Lol, only DK would get something thats accidentally good. Can we just keep the original and lose the battle spirit?

IxskullzxI · January 2017

KisoValley wrote: »

It's funny the people defending the change to Cdb when it's bugged atm and is ignoring battle spirit lol

Just wait until battle spirit gets its hand on Cdb.

Have any proof of that?

Quantum_V · January 2017

Guys, please, getting a 10-30k heal and saying it's good because of it is not making it. For you to ever get a heal like that you'll need to be at low resources, since the patch notes came out I was paying attention at my health:magicka ratio in PvP. It seemed I always have more magicka (flat value, not percentages) than health, it doesn't matter if it will heal you for a lot, most of the time, you shouldn't be too bad on magicka...

When do you need to heal? When you're low health - not low magicka. At this point, if no big changes are going to be done to this skill, I just rather have our current coag blood with the ability to crit (even though I don't like RNG, seems it's the only solution now...)

Quantum_V · January 2017

Kilandros wrote: »

Not sure why I'm posting feedback since it's clearly ignored, but here goes:

Chains: As has been said in literally dozens of threads over the last year, Chains is an inadequate gap closer. The fact that it is basically a projectile that can be dodged before your character has a chance to close the gap makes it too unreliable for use in PvP. Experienced mDKs have REPEATEDLY pointed this out. No amount of Major Expedition in the world can change the simple fact that most of the time this gap closer does nothing. Please--PLEASE--give us a Magicka version of Invasion.

Coagulating Blood: Some of my test heals have been large but I suspect that's because this is currently bugged and ignoring Battle Spirit. That being said, I dislike this change because it's clear you are trying to make it complex for complexity's sake. We don't need fussy, silly skills. We need decent, reliable skills. My Magicka isn't always low when my health is low and vice versa. This skill makes for counterintuitive and annoying gameplay. Revert to the former version of Coagulating Blood and simply make it exempt from Battle Spirit. Done. Voila.

Inferno: How this skill has been allowed to exist in its current useless state for so long is beyond me. It used to function wonderfully when it was an AoE. Just return it to that. Dynamic Ult isn't a thing anymore. This skill won't over perform like it used to.

Class Passives: I'm having some trouble accepting that none of our class passives were updated. Elder Dragon, for instance, still buffs health recovery. Please show me a DK who stacks health recovery in PvE or PvP. Our passives are outdated and generally uninspired. Look, a passive that increases the duration of Searing Strike and Dragonknight Standard--you couldn't just bake that duration increase into the ability itself and add something interesting? A chance to set Burning targets off balance. DoT do increased damage to targets below 15% health, etc.

Honestly these changes feel lazy and like Developers are attempting to do only the bare minimum. For well over a year and a half, experienced mDKs have thoughtfully laid out the class's strengths and weaknesses and how best to address them. We were told you were listening to our feedback, and yet (with the exception of Flame morph for Leap) literally ALL of our feedback went ignored. Players explicitly said Whip damage wasn't the problem; sustain and lack of healing is. Well, we got zero buffs to sustain and a heal that only rewards us when our sustain is gone.

That's the end of feedback I'm gonna give. I think it's pretty telling at this point when you compare the number of people actively playing Templar vs. the number actively playing DK. The suggestions are out there, you guys continue to ignore them.

^ This.

Moglijuana · January 2017

Zakor wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Not sure why I'm posting feedback since it's clearly ignored, but here goes:

Chains: As has been said in literally dozens of threads over the last year, Chains is an inadequate gap closer. The fact that it is basically a projectile that can be dodged before your character has a chance to close the gap makes it too unreliable for use in PvP. Experienced mDKs have REPEATEDLY pointed this out. No amount of Major Expedition in the world can change the simple fact that most of the time this gap closer does nothing. Please--PLEASE--give us a Magicka version of Invasion.

Coagulating Blood: Some of my test heals have been large but I suspect that's because this is currently bugged and ignoring Battle Spirit. That being said, I dislike this change because it's clear you are trying to make it complex for complexity's sake. We don't need fussy, silly skills. We need decent, reliable skills. My Magicka isn't always low when my health is low and vice versa. This skill makes for counterintuitive and annoying gameplay. Revert to the former version of Coagulating Blood and simply make it exempt from Battle Spirit. Done. Voila.

Inferno: How this skill has been allowed to exist in its current useless state for so long is beyond me. It used to function wonderfully when it was an AoE. Just return it to that. Dynamic Ult isn't a thing anymore. This skill won't over perform like it used to.

Class Passives: I'm having some trouble accepting that none of our class passives were updated. Elder Dragon, for instance, still buffs health recovery. Please show me a DK who stacks health recovery in PvE or PvP. Our passives are outdated and generally uninspired. Look, a passive that increases the duration of Searing Strike and Dragonknight Standard--you couldn't just bake that duration increase into the ability itself and add something interesting? A chance to set Burning targets off balance. DoT do increased damage to targets below 15% health, etc.

Honestly these changes feel lazy and like Developers are attempting to do only the bare minimum. For well over a year and a half, experienced mDKs have thoughtfully laid out the class's strengths and weaknesses and how best to address them. We were told you were listening to our feedback, and yet (with the exception of Flame morph for Leap) literally ALL of our feedback went ignored. Players explicitly said Whip damage wasn't the problem; sustain and lack of healing is. Well, we got zero buffs to sustain and a heal that only rewards us when our sustain is gone.

That's the end of feedback I'm gonna give. I think it's pretty telling at this point when you compare the number of people actively playing Templar vs. the number actively playing DK. The suggestions are out there, you guys continue to ignore them.

This, this and this again. Nothing to add at this point.

This x2

Wollust · January 2017

Is it really that hard to give us a functional and simple heal? Nothing overpowered, just something that helps like some sort of hot or so.

Why create an unecessary super situational and limited tryhard "burst" heal that is just going to be a mess to micromanage?

Ishammael · January 2017

Moglijuana wrote: »

Zakor wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Not sure why I'm posting feedback since it's clearly ignored, but here goes:

Chains: As has been said in literally dozens of threads over the last year, Chains is an inadequate gap closer. The fact that it is basically a projectile that can be dodged before your character has a chance to close the gap makes it too unreliable for use in PvP. Experienced mDKs have REPEATEDLY pointed this out. No amount of Major Expedition in the world can change the simple fact that most of the time this gap closer does nothing. Please--PLEASE--give us a Magicka version of Invasion.

Coagulating Blood: Some of my test heals have been large but I suspect that's because this is currently bugged and ignoring Battle Spirit. That being said, I dislike this change because it's clear you are trying to make it complex for complexity's sake. We don't need fussy, silly skills. We need decent, reliable skills. My Magicka isn't always low when my health is low and vice versa. This skill makes for counterintuitive and annoying gameplay. Revert to the former version of Coagulating Blood and simply make it exempt from Battle Spirit. Done. Voila.

Inferno: How this skill has been allowed to exist in its current useless state for so long is beyond me. It used to function wonderfully when it was an AoE. Just return it to that. Dynamic Ult isn't a thing anymore. This skill won't over perform like it used to.

Class Passives: I'm having some trouble accepting that none of our class passives were updated. Elder Dragon, for instance, still buffs health recovery. Please show me a DK who stacks health recovery in PvE or PvP. Our passives are outdated and generally uninspired. Look, a passive that increases the duration of Searing Strike and Dragonknight Standard--you couldn't just bake that duration increase into the ability itself and add something interesting? A chance to set Burning targets off balance. DoT do increased damage to targets below 15% health, etc.

Honestly these changes feel lazy and like Developers are attempting to do only the bare minimum. For well over a year and a half, experienced mDKs have thoughtfully laid out the class's strengths and weaknesses and how best to address them. We were told you were listening to our feedback, and yet (with the exception of Flame morph for Leap) literally ALL of our feedback went ignored. Players explicitly said Whip damage wasn't the problem; sustain and lack of healing is. Well, we got zero buffs to sustain and a heal that only rewards us when our sustain is gone.

That's the end of feedback I'm gonna give. I think it's pretty telling at this point when you compare the number of people actively playing Templar vs. the number actively playing DK. The suggestions are out there, you guys continue to ignore them.

This, this and this again. Nothing to add at this point.

This x2

This xISH

NBrookus · January 2017

After some reflection, here's the two changes I think would salvage this:

Burning Embers:

Either turn this into a HoT or shorten the duration of the burst heal at the end. 10.5 seconds is an eternity in PvP, and reapplying it to a player you can't catch... GL. If the skill becomes a decent HoT, remove the burst heal.
Add the magickasteal buff to it
Cost and damage may need to be reassessed if the skill's primary focus is now as a sustain buff.

Coagulating Dragonblood

Change this to heal for a percentage of max magicka. The percentage may need to be tweaked.

Reasoning:
The first change is to provide some much needed sustain and a primary source of healing for tanky S&B DKs who typically don't run high magicka pools. Their"burst" heals will still be the situational Whip procs, or resto back bar. Their situation is mostly unchanged except they have some extra sustain.

The second is to provide a non-gimmicky source of healing for light armor staff DKs who run high magicka pools but lower health and mitigation. Between the two heals, there are options for a range of play styles. The second heal would open up the possibility for builds using a variety of S&B, destro, resto and DW weapons. I know if I had a reliable heal, I'd like to play with a dual ice/fire destro dunmer build. Right now that would be suicide. I also don't think these changes would negatively impact PvE mDKs.

Thoughts?

kojou · January 2017

I don't remember all of the changes, but here are my notes after playing on my DK:

CDB (Coagulated Dragon Blood) Needs a minimum heal value. I don't care how it is calculated, but at full max magic it should not be less than 4K. I will probably just use Embers...

Love the buff to Whip of course.

Sad about the nerf to Standard, but I think it was too strong before the patch, so some adjustment was needed.

One side note...

Deep Breath seems a little out of balance now. Before the patch it did more damage than Whip and now it does less, but still costs a lot more. It is more of a AoE/utility skill than DPS skill anyway, but just thought it was interesting to note.

AhPook_Is_Here · January 2017

I really still don't get why standard is getting nerfed. For AOE damge there are several ultimates that are better already. Standard is the ultimate one would use in single target burn phases of PVE bosses as a substitute to the lack of a class based execute. Reducing the only valuable aspect of standard by 25% really demands that it be balanced in some other way, at least a 25% reduction in cost to give it more up-time. I would be very happy if you gave it 10% bonus damage and reduced its cost below 100 so one could keep it up half the time in a fight. Another good trade off would be a class based execute. Who wouldn't like a lava whip that did more damage to low health targets?

MrGorv · January 2017

So, it's time for DK.
1. Fiery Grip. Step in the right direction, I like it.
2. Lava Whip 5% increased damage. Good.
3. Spiked Armor morphs. Satisfying.
4. Ferocious Leap. Right direction again, maybe I'll even give it a chance on live server, when it comes out.
5. Coagulating Blood. It now can crit. Nice, but you know, I'm tanking on DK for over 2 years already and this one is one of the worst changes ever. Everyone uses this morph. It saved lives of many tanks in dungeons and trials. And tanks don't have that much magicka, as well as tanks are almost never really low on magicka. So, ZOS... For God's sake don't touch this morph for now, if you can't come up with anything better than this. Put up experiments with other one if you want, it's useless anyway! But if you really want to help Dragon Blood, do the following: make Minor Vitality a base buff of non-morph ability, and then make one stamina and one magicka morph, both based on the left amount of resource, not the missing one.
6. Standart of Might. It was already worse then Elemental Storm both in PvE and PvP, and you nerf it further. For what? Who asked for this? Is it a nerf for tanks again? Leave it be. Really, ZOS, just leave it be for now.

Almost forgot, last but not the least.
7. Reflective Scale. Now Force Shock cannot be reflected. Which means almost nothing can be reflected. No counterplay for sorcs sitting in their mines. Please, give us some reason to use this ability. Try to do something with it... Next patch, I guess.

Banana · January 2017

Looks like Im staying as a stamina DK even with the nerfs to trap and standard. A slightly buffed whip and a weird heal is not going to make me rush home to whip out my old magicka gear and the race change to go with it.

Xvorg · January 2017

Xsorus wrote: »

I just tested Dragons Blood, in PVE mind you without the Battle Spirit Debuff

at 20% of my health, it healed for around 1200...when I was at full magicka

It is an absolutely worthless heal.

No problem... just spam it until you healing is good...

'cause... logic. Wrobel's logic...

Xvorg · January 2017

Areloth wrote: »

I tested it in cyrodiil.
It's really not that bad as you might think.
I hav 43k magicka, my 19.2k heal was with around 25% magicka.
When I cast a shield at full magicka and then use dragon blood it heals already for around 5k.

Consider that you get crits now!

43k magicka - if I have like 50% its 21.5k magicka missing, 33% of it is 7095 heal.
Now 50% less: 3547 heal
+12% draconic ability
+25% minor mending
+ 8% coagulating blood
+ 5% champion points
=+50% --> 5321 heal
now it can crit, so +64%
--> 8726 heal

with heavy armor even more.

but believe me, somehow it is healing way more than it says...I am not sure if battle spirit is really affecting it. For me it looks pretty OP - test it. I had to logg out after an hour of testing.

Test it before hating Zeni too much.

So mDKs now have to be build around crti to have a decent heal...

Ok, lest's forget spell dmg, max mgicka (especially while wearing HA), flame dmg, resources... because we need to aim crit strike chance.

Xvorg · January 2017

jaburns wrote: »

I'm still wondering WHY THE HELL they decided to put Major Expedition on a gap closer. We're closing the gap between ourselves and enemies. I'm most likely going to spend 8 seconds fighting them and the Major Expedition will wear off...

Put Major Expedition on something like Eruption or even Inferno. (Not that anyone ever chooses Inferno over Mage Light). Until you make Inferno more viable than Mage Light... no one's going to use it. Have Inferno create an AOE DoT and you can make Cauterize create an AOE HoT.

Wings with major exp and I'll slot them again.

Toc de Malsvi · January 2017

jaburns wrote: »

I'm still wondering WHY THE HELL they decided to put Major Expedition on a gap closer. We're closing the gap between ourselves and enemies. I'm most likely going to spend 8 seconds fighting them and the Major Expedition will wear off...

Put Major Expedition on something like Eruption or even Inferno. (Not that anyone ever chooses Inferno over Mage Light). Until you make Inferno more viable than Mage Light... no one's going to use it. Have Inferno create an AOE DoT and you can make Cauterize create an AOE HoT.

Why not put Major Expedition on Wings?

Toc de Malsvi · January 2017

Xvorg wrote: »

jaburns wrote: »

I'm still wondering WHY THE HELL they decided to put Major Expedition on a gap closer. We're closing the gap between ourselves and enemies. I'm most likely going to spend 8 seconds fighting them and the Major Expedition will wear off...

Put Major Expedition on something like Eruption or even Inferno. (Not that anyone ever chooses Inferno over Mage Light). Until you make Inferno more viable than Mage Light... no one's going to use it. Have Inferno create an AOE DoT and you can make Cauterize create an AOE HoT.

Wings with major exp and I'll slot them again.

Like minds.

Yolokin_Swagonborn · January 2017

They should really just unnerf wings at this point. Crushing shock being a beam attack should have been the original "nerf" to wings. I'm for more counters and less nerfs.

Ishammael · January 2017

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

They should really just unnerf wings at this point. Crushing shock being a beam attack should have been the original "nerf" to wings. I'm for more counters and less nerfs.

It won't matter.
The skill doesnt really work anyway.
The status effects are still applied (DoTs, heal debuff, etc) even if the projectile is reflected

Hutch679 · January 2017

Vyle_Byte wrote: »

Whats the point? We gave you tons of threads, tons of suggestions and you gave us this crap. Well over a year we have discussed and pleaded. Why would any feedback we give you now matter?

It wont.

Completely agree. Nothing we write in here is gonna change the DK. Lol I can't believe I waste my time in this forum anymore.

Quickline · January 2017

Im just going to use the green dragonblood. It is more reliable than the coag. blood and with crits I think we can receive some moderate heals! I use DB only in emergency, so *** off!

Hutch679 · January 2017

Ishammael wrote: »

Moglijuana wrote: »

Zakor wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Not sure why I'm posting feedback since it's clearly ignored, but here goes:

Chains: As has been said in literally dozens of threads over the last year, Chains is an inadequate gap closer. The fact that it is basically a projectile that can be dodged before your character has a chance to close the gap makes it too unreliable for use in PvP. Experienced mDKs have REPEATEDLY pointed this out. No amount of Major Expedition in the world can change the simple fact that most of the time this gap closer does nothing. Please--PLEASE--give us a Magicka version of Invasion.

Coagulating Blood: Some of my test heals have been large but I suspect that's because this is currently bugged and ignoring Battle Spirit. That being said, I dislike this change because it's clear you are trying to make it complex for complexity's sake. We don't need fussy, silly skills. We need decent, reliable skills. My Magicka isn't always low when my health is low and vice versa. This skill makes for counterintuitive and annoying gameplay. Revert to the former version of Coagulating Blood and simply make it exempt from Battle Spirit. Done. Voila.

Inferno: How this skill has been allowed to exist in its current useless state for so long is beyond me. It used to function wonderfully when it was an AoE. Just return it to that. Dynamic Ult isn't a thing anymore. This skill won't over perform like it used to.

Class Passives: I'm having some trouble accepting that none of our class passives were updated. Elder Dragon, for instance, still buffs health recovery. Please show me a DK who stacks health recovery in PvE or PvP. Our passives are outdated and generally uninspired. Look, a passive that increases the duration of Searing Strike and Dragonknight Standard--you couldn't just bake that duration increase into the ability itself and add something interesting? A chance to set Burning targets off balance. DoT do increased damage to targets below 15% health, etc.

Honestly these changes feel lazy and like Developers are attempting to do only the bare minimum. For well over a year and a half, experienced mDKs have thoughtfully laid out the class's strengths and weaknesses and how best to address them. We were told you were listening to our feedback, and yet (with the exception of Flame morph for Leap) literally ALL of our feedback went ignored. Players explicitly said Whip damage wasn't the problem; sustain and lack of healing is. Well, we got zero buffs to sustain and a heal that only rewards us when our sustain is gone.

That's the end of feedback I'm gonna give. I think it's pretty telling at this point when you compare the number of people actively playing Templar vs. the number actively playing DK. The suggestions are out there, you guys continue to ignore them.

This, this and this again. Nothing to add at this point.

This x2

This xISH

This again.

Hutch679 · January 2017

No point in giving suggestions. Nothing gets better. We should be careful they might make it worse lol

Joy_Division · January 2017

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

I really still don't get why standard is getting nerfed. For AOE damge there are several ultimates that are better already. Standard is the ultimate one would use in single target burn phases of PVE bosses as a substitute to the lack of a class based execute. Reducing the only valuable aspect of standard by 25% really demands that it be balanced in some other way, at least a 25% reduction in cost to give it more up-time. I would be very happy if you gave it 10% bonus damage and reduced its cost below 100 so one could keep it up half the time in a fight. Another good trade off would be a class based execute. Who wouldn't like a lava whip that did more damage to low health targets?

I'm almost positive they nerfed it because:

whip +5% increase
Flame Staff + 8% increase
AoE cap + variable % increase

In their minds since DPS is going up in other areas, this was done as a counter-balance.

Don't shoot the messenger here, but as I said I can almost guarantee this is why. Way back during the Orsinium patch I asked why puncturing sweeps was getting hit with a stealth 5% nerf to healing, and I actually got a developer response who outlined the sort of ZoS reasoning I outline above.

Edit: Mr Gorv's point about tanks and Green Dragon Blood is highly relevant I think. I see a a lot of PvP reasoning here and I'm wondering if the awkward mechanics undermine its use for DKs who rely on it outside Cyrodiil. I do agree with him that the lesser used morph with the (sometimes) redudant stam regen may have been the better one to experiment with.

Kilandros · January 2017

Joy_Division wrote: »

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

I really still don't get why standard is getting nerfed. For AOE damge there are several ultimates that are better already. Standard is the ultimate one would use in single target burn phases of PVE bosses as a substitute to the lack of a class based execute. Reducing the only valuable aspect of standard by 25% really demands that it be balanced in some other way, at least a 25% reduction in cost to give it more up-time. I would be very happy if you gave it 10% bonus damage and reduced its cost below 100 so one could keep it up half the time in a fight. Another good trade off would be a class based execute. Who wouldn't like a lava whip that did more damage to low health targets?

I'm almost positive they nerfed it because:
whip +5% increase

Flame Staff + 8% increase

AoE cap + variable % increase

In their minds since DPS is going up in other areas, this was done as a counter-balance.

Don't shoot the messenger here, but as I said I can almost guarantee this is why. Way back during the Orsinium patch I asked why puncturing sweeps was getting hit with a stealth 5% nerf to healing, and I actually got a developer response who outlined the sort of ZoS reasoning I outline above.

Edit: Mr Gorv's point about tanks and Green Dragon Blood is highly relevant I think. I see a a lot of PvP reasoning here and I'm wondering if the awkward mechanics undermine its use for DKs who rely on it outside Cyrodiil. I do agree with him that the lesser used morph with the (sometimes) redudant stam regen may have been the better one to experiment with.

Yeah I think this is right. Of all the changes I think the Standard nerf actually made the most sense given the buffs elsewhere. As Joy said that doesn't mean I agree with it, but I can at least see the logic behind it.

Kilandros · January 2017

Ishammael wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

They should really just unnerf wings at this point. Crushing shock being a beam attack should have been the original "nerf" to wings. I'm for more counters and less nerfs.

It won't matter.
The skill doesnt really work anyway.
The status effects are still applied (DoTs, heal debuff, etc) even if the projectile is reflected

I was actually hoping they would just completely gut Wings and turn it into something else. I'm OK with reflects not being a part of this game. I'm not OK with one of our skills being broken for nearly two years because it has either: Drained resources while reflecting, failed to reflect DoTs and status effects, or simply failed to reflect period.

Just change the skill entirely already.

Armitas · January 2017

Wings 4 seconds major expedition with root clear and 1 sec immunity could be nice. It would make me think about losing vamp, though mist is nice for curbing ultimates.

Also, igneous shield is a terrible shield in PvP. Frag shield isn't used, and igneous is slotted soley for the mending buff. In pve its amazing, in pvp it is a really wothless shield. I'll make a more detailed post later.

Moglijuana · January 2017

Armitas wrote: »

Wings 4 seconds major expedition with root clear and 1 sec immunity could be nice. It would make me think about losing vamp, though mist is nice for curbing ultimates.

Also, igneous shield is a terrible shield in PvP. Frag shield isn't used, and igneous is slotted soley for the mending buff. In pve its amazing, in pvp it is a really wothless shield. I'll make a more detailed post later.

Major expedition attached to wings would be sweet. It would make sense lore rise too since Dk's flapping wings should give some kind of boost of air around you haha. Currently, I just eat everything flying towards me with mist form since it's more reliable than a reflect that doesn't even reflect lol.

stevenbennett_ESO · January 2017

I rarely complain about nerfs from the various patches (and since I run just about everything, they always have some effect on me...), but the Coagulating Blood change -- that's a tough one to ignore. Based on my testing last night, it's completely lost any usefulness as my emergency heal for my mDK... I'm kind of stumped on how to rework around this... Can we *please* either make it a percentage of *max* magicka or restore it to it's original design?

IxskullzxI · January 2017

stevenbennett_ESO wrote: »

I rarely complain about nerfs from the various patches (and since I run just about everything, they always have some effect on me...), but the Coagulating Blood change -- that's a tough one to ignore. Based on my testing last night, it's completely lost any usefulness as my emergency heal for my mDK... I'm kind of stumped on how to rework around this... Can we *please* either make it a percentage of *max* magicka or restore it to it's original design?

Want to post some numbers on your "testing"?