So how many are actually happy with the recent patch notes?

Kutsuu · January 2017

There is not enough data from testing on PTS to make decisions on these patch notes.

NeillMcAttack · January 2017

@Uriel_Nocturne

I'm finding it interesting, being that you list a lot of gaming experience in your sig, that you find many of these changes surprising? Surely you understand that these kinds of games are always subject to change. Which is a good thing. If they were never changed, then we would understand that Dev's have no vision outside of release.

And I don't understand how you can list RD as the one skill that changed for PvP, and complain about it! Of course it was changed. It was way too powerful, but of you think that it's only due to PvPrs complaining then how can you ever explain any change people don't ask for?

Vision is necessary inside any creative endeavour. And while it's pretty safe to say that ESO's vision has been changed a great deal since inception. Should we not be appreciative that there is still some vision left?

NeillMcAttack · January 2017

Kutsuu wrote: »

There is not enough data from testing on PTS to make decisions on these patch notes.

So I can't be happy, upset, or indifferent about them?

Uriel_Nocturne · January 2017

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

@Uriel_Nocturne

I'm finding it interesting, being that you list a lot of gaming experience in your sig, that you find many of these changes surprising? Surely you understand that these kinds of games are always subject to change. Which is a good thing. If they were never changed, then we would understand that Dev's have no vision outside of release.

And I don't understand how you can list RD as the one skill that changed for PvP, and complain about it! Of course it was changed. It was way too powerful, but of you think that it's only due to PvPrs complaining then how can you ever explain any change people don't ask for?

Vision is necessary inside any creative endeavour. And while it's pretty safe to say that ESO's vision has been changed a great deal since inception. Should we not be appreciative that there is still some vision left?

Of course MMO's change over time.

My issue isn't that RD is changing to reign it in for PvP, my issue is that it is in no way OP for PvE. Why should the PvE players have to suffer through a nerf when the ability is only an issue on the PvP side? Are the developers simply incapable of separating changes for the two sides? If so, when was the last time you heard a PvE player *** about how powerful RD was?

Also, nerfing Spear Shards? What was the point in that?

But I happen to have a very good idea that these are changes centered on the PvP game. How do I know this? Find me a PvE thread that said that RD was too OP when cracking down on a World Boss. Find me a thread where ANYBODY bitched about the stun from any of the Spear Shards. Find me a PvE thread where anyone playing a Nightblade bitched that they had too much Healing ability. Find me a PvE thread where ANYBODY complained that their Proc Sets were too good and needed to be reduced. Find me a PvE thread where Sorcerer's were complaining that Hurricane was TOO GOOD.

You won't find them. Why? Because the calls for those reductions are ONLY from the PvP side of the game. But making PvP changes unilaterally affect BOTH sides of the game will only anger the vastly larger PvE population, and those are the Gamers who spend the most money on the game. With these nerfs unilaterally affecting both sides, but catering to the PvP side, ZOS is going to lose PvE players left and right, and THAT directly affects their bottom-line.

When any MMORPG makes changes to cater to a tiny, niche uber-competitive PvP crowd at the expense of the infinitely larger (admittedly more casual) PvE crowd, the MMO suffers greatly and suffers a population drop off larger than simple time will account for. It's happened to many MMO's in the past, and I would really hate for ESO to follow this same destructive path.

THEDKEXPERIENCE · January 2017

AuldWolf wrote: »

Runs wrote: »

The combat stuff doesn't bother me so much. If I do a little less dps then so be it and if I do a lot less dps... then so be it. Maybe my attitude would be different if I was more competitive or a better player, but honestly the ones who are will still be fine.

God, I love false flag operations. They're hilarious. You're clearly a competitive PvP player who's happy about this. Pretending to be an average PvE player isn't going to really fool anyone. People aren't as blissfully ignorant and blind as you think they are, it's really patronising of you to even believe that.

The problem is is that this is symbolic. It's a matter of PvE being altered to suit PvP just because hyper-competitive people are upset. It's a slippery slope. It's one that's doomed many MMOs before it, and while this one may be next, it probably won't be the last thanks to incredibly manipulative people who're not a whole lot unlike yourself.

Really, if this isn't a false flag operation, why would you even mention 'competitive?' That wasn't a smart move, it was an obvious contradiction that stood out to me like a sore thumb.

Edit: Also, you won't mind if they change it back, right? If you really don't care. But of course you care.

You're the worst.

You hate on people for being hyper competitive while exhibiting repetitive behavior showing your own hyper competitiveness against any PVP player you find. And then you throw out accusations about "false flag operations" as if someone not being overwhelmingly angry about a video game nerf is similar to an undercover 3rd World coup.

Oh, and then we can top it off with a half dozen paragraphs about how the game in dying even though you have no evidence of it. Guess what? I play almost every day and ESO is quite highly populated. There was an 88 person queue into PVP at 8PM last night on XBox as just one example.

Chances are you'll reply to this with some nonsense about strawman arguments and call other people sociopaths (oh, wait, you already did that), or some other term you learned in your sociology 201 class that makes you feel important.

Here is the truth ... you're a troll. Some people surely agree with you and many of them have valid reasons ... yet still ... you're a troll. Whatever soapbox your on while shouting into your PVE only microphone does not in any way speak for the ESO community.

Tandor · January 2017

SirAndy wrote: »

Just remember, the ALL CAPS crowd is very vocal but small.

Most people will adapt, just like they did after every other update since long before launch.

Most people won't read the patch notes or even notice there have been changes

!

NeillMcAttack · January 2017

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

@Uriel_Nocturne

I'm finding it interesting, being that you list a lot of gaming experience in your sig, that you find many of these changes surprising? Surely you understand that these kinds of games are always subject to change. Which is a good thing. If they were never changed, then we would understand that Dev's have no vision outside of release.

And I don't understand how you can list RD as the one skill that changed for PvP, and complain about it! Of course it was changed. It was way too powerful, but of you think that it's only due to PvPrs complaining then how can you ever explain any change people don't ask for?

Vision is necessary inside any creative endeavour. And while it's pretty safe to say that ESO's vision has been changed a great deal since inception. Should we not be appreciative that there is still some vision left?

Of course MMO's change over time.

My issue isn't that RD is changing to reign it in for PvP, my issue is that it is in no way OP for PvE. Why should the PvE players have to suffer through a nerf when the ability is only an issue on the PvP side? Are the developers simply incapable of separating changes for the two sides? If so, when was the last time you heard a PvE player *** about how powerful RD was?

Also, nerfing Spear Shards? What was the point in that?

But I happen to have a very good idea that these are changes centered on the PvP game. How do I know this? Find me a PvE thread that said that RD was too OP when cracking down on a World Boss. Find me a thread where ANYBODY bitched about the stun from any of the Spear Shards. Find me a PvE thread where anyone playing a Nightblade bitched that they had too much Healing ability. Find me a PvE thread where ANYBODY complained that their Proc Sets were too good and needed to be reduced. Find me a PvE thread where Sorcerer's were complaining that Hurricane was TOO GOOD.

You won't find them. Why? Because the calls for those reductions are ONLY from the PvP side of the game. But making PvP changes unilaterally affect BOTH sides of the game will only anger the vastly larger PvE population, and those are the Gamers who spend the most money on the game. With these nerfs unilaterally affecting both sides, but catering to the PvP side, ZOS is going to lose PvE players left and right, and THAT directly affects their bottom-line.

When any MMORPG makes changes to cater to a tiny, niche uber-competitive PvP crowd at the expense of the infinitely larger (admittedly more casual) PvE crowd, the MMO suffers greatly and suffers a population drop off larger than simple time will account for. It's happened to many MMO's in the past, and I would really hate for ESO to follow this same destructive path.

Isn't it fair to say that if all the changes made from release to now were specific to either aspect of the game, we would have two vastly different experiences!? Do casual players not venture into Cyrodiil?

Why aren't people mentioning the "Uber-Competitive" PvE players? Do they not exist? Back when maelstrom arena released, we had throves of threads calling for balance as MagSorc and MagBlade were the superior leaderboard holders.

Bringing such, and I'm grateful for this, 'Unique Classes' in line with each other while still keeping what defines them is no mean feat.

And to finish. I have to say. I don't feel we have had balance changes to date that catered more to casual play than we have here. Housing, the cornerstone of the patch is for casual players. New players will have a real and viable choice on how they decide to roll a class now more than ever IMO.
When the game first released on console everyone with experience was advising players to roll a MagSorc or Nightblade. We have already heard from players here in past two days that they rolled MagTemps, some, strictly because of RD. If the classes can remain unique and be fairly balanced, how can you argue that the casual player suffers? It doesn't make sense.

Sorc pet buffs, what is more casual and fun than that?

The funnel health Nerf I can personally understand. My main is a MagBlade, but he started out as stam, as time went on I wanted to complete more Dungeon content so I switched him to mag so I could DPS and Heal all Dungeon Content. Being that I had no idea what I was doing and managed perfectly because of how broken that spell was. I barely needed a rotation. What about sorc and DK healers? Should they struggle harder?

You are right though, strictly PvE players don't complain when an ability is over performing for them. But trust me when I say they complain when a skill they don't have access to is over performing. Because this makes them dis-heartened and pressured to re-roll causing many more quits than balance ever could.

Sure people may over-react that a spell used for the fastest one-fifth of a boss fight got a reduction of one-fifth in its potency, but they will adapt. And if they can't, or simply won't, how long do you think they would have lasted anyway!?

AuldWolf · January 2017

Uriel is really on point, here.

The reason I bang on and on about the deaths of other MMOs is because, like they say above, whenever changes are made that appeal to a hyper-competitive niche? The game hurts.

The Champions Online zero day patch is infamous for this. In the beta, there was a tiny minority of hyper-competitive PvP players complaining about power synergies. This had no effect on PvE whatsoever, and no one in PvE was bothered by this at the time because the "hardcore" end-game PvE meta hadn't arrived. So Cryptic just bent over, took the rage, and changed the game to suit these PvP players. The nerfs to so, so many aspects of the game were severe.

Half of the community left that day. You could see it in the numbers of people actually playing (CO has instance zone population counts), and it was evident from the forums about people complaining about how they were playing a superhero game, not a game of civilians who just so happen to be able to shoot pretty light shows from their hands. It was devastating. Cryptic woefully stuck to their sixguns though and continued to nerf, nerf, nerf the night away. Every patch saw the population drop.

Battleborn did much the same thing. Right after launch, they did something really silly. It was such a ham-fisted, nuclear nerf of a character (ISIC) that everyone who played him just left the game. The population saw a pretty sharp drop that day. Though Randy Pitchford had this dream of Battleborn being an eSports game, so he pushed the balancing team to merrily nerf the night away. Every character that was destroyed saw a dip in the community. I watched the Steam charts with every patch... It wasn't prety. There are about 50-300~ people playing Battleborn at any given time, now. That's worse than a lot of indie games.

And it keeps happening.

ZOS did something conniving and manipulative, though. They launched a competitive-focused patch around the same time they launched One Tamriel. The changes to world bosses and dungeons were terrible. I feel that at least group dungeons should have continued to scale to the level of the leader of the group entering them. And they could have found a better execution for world bosses that wouldn't require cookie-cutter builds or groups to beat them. A lot of casuals came in around the time of One Tamriel, though, because they were excited about going anywhere in an MMO.

And ZOS is gearing up to do something conniving again. They're using player housing and soon Vvardenfel to try and coax people into playing despite the bad balance changes. The question is, though: Why make the bad balance changes in the first place? It benefits less than one per cent of the community, it alienates the casual players, and they'd be bringing in so many more people and making so much more money if they just balanced things in a more casual way. In a way that benefited casual players rather than just hyper-competitive people.

I have an idea...

I think that greed is playing a role. I think that the people at ZOS have the wrong idea about hyper-competitive people. They think those people play just to play. Not so. Hahaha, no. Both of them play to have a hierarchy. If PvP and PvE people lose the casuals whom they lord things over, they leave. So the casuals leave, and then the toxic, competitive people leave.

Question: Why not just stop appealing to the competitive people at all? Drop the dead weight. Lose a few hundred players and gain thousands more. Seems like a no-brainer.

I just think that the people in management positions are misguided and have wrong ideas about things, that they don't understand what a modern MMO actually looks like. They don't get that they'll get more loyal players, more money, and a healthier future just by appealing to casual people. Casual people become loyal to a game because they've been treated right, just as I've been with ESO. I've played a lot of alts, I don't need all this new content, I'm happy to play even without new content every month (or even three). I feel most casuals are the same way. I've also spent a lot of money on the crown store.

This just reeks of mismanagement of the worst degree. It really does. They have this twisted view that PvP players and end-game PvE players will continue to play even if they don't have casuals to lord things over. Like I've said, they leave. They left Champions, after all. And they never bothered with Warhammer Online or Wildstar to begin with because there weren't enough casuals to lord things over.

WoW is really the only ecosystem that keeps casuals around (via Skinner box addiction) for competitive people to lord things over. You can't compete with that. You really can't. Others have tried, and failed.

ZOS is walking a tightrope by trying to appeal to the competitive people by giving them casuals to lord over, whilst giving the casual audience reason to stay. How long do you think you can keep this up, ZOS? Really, how long?? How long until this all falls away from beneath you, leaving you to fall to your doom? You can't appeal to both. The casuals will move on if they're alienated because the people who don't play WoW are the ones smart enough to choose games that won't addict them, or don't suffer with addictions in the first place. So if you spurn us, we'll leave. There are other games that we can be loyal too. You can't mistreat us and expect us to continue to be loyal.

You're walking on a very fine line, here, ZOS. And it's all going to fall away... Just like it did with every other MMO. There's nothing that makes ESO special. There's nothing that will stop ESO from following the usual destructive path.

If you just drop the competitive people like dead weight, though? Well, then you could finally enjoy being the first MMO to actually be successful outside of WoW. The thing is is that the thing you're doing now? It's not special, ZOS. Champions Online did player housing and other things to try and keep the casuals around. And yes, it worked for a bit, because we were loyal to the game and we loved to play it. But as things just kept feeling more and more like a chore, every time we had to reroll our characters because of balance changes, every time we had to leave behind an iconic idea we liked... Well, the more we lost interest, the less loyal we were.

And that's how I'm feeling about ESO, right now. The constant balance screw-ups just to appeal to competitive people are wearing on my nerves. I don't even know if I'll be playing ESO when housing lands.

I hope you know what you're doing, ZOS. I have an opinion which is opposite of yours, that this balancing act can't continue. And you'll have to choose one audience over the other. And really, you should choose wisely. Really, don't take my word for it, just look at the bloody line of corpses behind you. Look at all the other failed MMOs and online games. Why did they fail? This very reason.

Uriel_Nocturne · January 2017

AuldWolf wrote: »

Uriel is really on point, here.

The reason I bang on and on about the deaths of other MMOs is because, like they say above, whenever changes are made that appeal to a hyper-competitive niche? The game hurts.

The Champions Online zero day patch is infamous for this. In the beta, there was a tiny minority of hyper-competitive PvP players complaining about power synergies. This had no effect on PvE whatsoever, and no one in PvE was bothered by this at the time because the "hardcore" end-game PvE meta hadn't arrived. So Cryptic just bent over, took the rage, and changed the game to suit these PvP players. The nerfs to so, so many aspects of the game were severe.

Half of the community left that day. You could see it in the numbers of people actually playing (CO has instance zone population counts), and it was evident from the forums about people complaining about how they were playing a superhero game, not a game of civilians who just so happen to be able to shoot pretty light shows from their hands. It was devastating. Cryptic woefully stuck to their sixguns though and continued to nerf, nerf, nerf the night away. Every patch saw the population drop.

Battleborn did much the same thing. Right after launch, they did something really silly. It was such a ham-fisted, nuclear nerf of a character (ISIC) that everyone who played him just left the game. The population saw a pretty sharp drop that day. Though Randy Pitchford had this dream of Battleborn being an eSports game, so he pushed the balancing team to merrily nerf the night away. Every character that was destroyed saw a dip in the community. I watched the Steam charts with every patch... It wasn't prety. There are about 50-300~ people playing Battleborn at any given time, now. That's worse than a lot of indie games.

And it keeps happening.

ZOS did something conniving and manipulative, though. They launched a competitive-focused patch around the same time they launched One Tamriel. The changes to world bosses and dungeons were terrible. I feel that at least group dungeons should have continued to scale to the level of the leader of the group entering them. And they could have found a better execution for world bosses that wouldn't require cookie-cutter builds or groups to beat them. A lot of casuals came in around the time of One Tamriel, though, because they were excited about going anywhere in an MMO.

And ZOS is gearing up to do something conniving again. They're using player housing and soon Vvardenfel to try and coax people into playing despite the bad balance changes. The question is, though: Why make the bad balance changes in the first place? It benefits less than one per cent of the community, it alienates the casual players, and they'd be bringing in so many more people and making so much more money if they just balanced things in a more casual way. In a way that benefited casual players rather than just hyper-competitive people.

I have an idea...

I think that greed is playing a role. I think that the people at ZOS have the wrong idea about hyper-competitive people. They think those people play just to play. Not so. Hahaha, no. Both of them play to have a hierarchy. If PvP and PvE people lose the casuals whom they lord things over, they leave. So the casuals leave, and then the toxic, competitive people leave.

Question: Why not just stop appealing to the competitive people at all? Drop the dead weight. Lose a few hundred players and gain thousands more. Seems like a no-brainer.

I just think that the people in management positions are misguided and have wrong ideas about things, that they don't understand what a modern MMO actually looks like. They don't get that they'll get more loyal players, more money, and a healthier future just by appealing to casual people. Casual people become loyal to a game because they've been treated right, just as I've been with ESO. I've played a lot of alts, I don't need all this new content, I'm happy to play even without new content every month (or even three). I feel most casuals are the same way. I've also spent a lot of money on the crown store.

This just reeks of mismanagement of the worst degree. It really does. They have this twisted view that PvP players and end-game PvE players will continue to play even if they don't have casuals to lord things over. Like I've said, they leave. They left Champions, after all. And they never bothered with Warhammer Online or Wildstar to begin with because there weren't enough casuals to lord things over.

WoW is really the only ecosystem that keeps casuals around (via Skinner box addiction) for competitive people to lord things over. You can't compete with that. You really can't. Others have tried, and failed.

ZOS is walking a tightrope by trying to appeal to the competitive people by giving them casuals to lord over, whilst giving the casual audience reason to stay. How long do you think you can keep this up, ZOS? Really, how long?? How long until this all falls away from beneath you, leaving you to fall to your doom? You can't appeal to both. The casuals will move on if they're alienated because the people who don't play WoW are the ones smart enough to choose games that won't addict them, or don't suffer with addictions in the first place. So if you spurn us, we'll leave. There are other games that we can be loyal too. You can't mistreat us and expect us to continue to be loyal.

You're walking on a very fine line, here, ZOS. And it's all going to fall away... Just like it did with every other MMO. There's nothing that makes ESO special. There's nothing that will stop ESO from following the usual destructive path.

If you just drop the competitive people like dead weight, though? Well, then you could finally enjoy being the first MMO to actually be successful outside of WoW. The thing is is that the thing you're doing now? It's not special, ZOS. Champions Online did player housing and other things to try and keep the casuals around. And yes, it worked for a bit, because we were loyal to the game and we loved to play it. But as things just kept feeling more and more like a chore, every time we had to reroll our characters because of balance changes, every time we had to leave behind an iconic idea we liked... Well, the more we lost interest, the less loyal we were.

And that's how I'm feeling about ESO, right now. The constant balance screw-ups just to appeal to competitive people are wearing on my nerves. I don't even know if I'll be playing ESO when housing lands.

I hope you know what you're doing, ZOS. I have an opinion which is opposite of yours, that this balancing act can't continue. And you'll have to choose one audience over the other. And really, you should choose wisely. Really, don't take my word for it, just look at the bloody line of corpses behind you. Look at all the other failed MMOs and online games. Why did they fail? This very reason.

This is spot on. Well said.

NeillMcAttack · January 2017

AuldWolf wrote: »

Uriel is really on point, here.

The reason I bang on and on about the deaths of other MMOs is because, like they say above, whenever changes are made that appeal to a hyper-competitive niche? The game hurts.

The Champions Online zero day patch is infamous for this. In the beta, there was a tiny minority of hyper-competitive PvP players complaining about power synergies. This had no effect on PvE whatsoever, and no one in PvE was bothered by this at the time because the "hardcore" end-game PvE meta hadn't arrived. So Cryptic just bent over, took the rage, and changed the game to suit these PvP players. The nerfs to so, so many aspects of the game were severe.

Half of the community left that day. You could see it in the numbers of people actually playing (CO has instance zone population counts), and it was evident from the forums about people complaining about how they were playing a superhero game, not a game of civilians who just so happen to be able to shoot pretty light shows from their hands. It was devastating. Cryptic woefully stuck to their sixguns though and continued to nerf, nerf, nerf the night away. Every patch saw the population drop.

Battleborn did much the same thing. Right after launch, they did something really silly. It was such a ham-fisted, nuclear nerf of a character (ISIC) that everyone who played him just left the game. The population saw a pretty sharp drop that day. Though Randy Pitchford had this dream of Battleborn being an eSports game, so he pushed the balancing team to merrily nerf the night away. Every character that was destroyed saw a dip in the community. I watched the Steam charts with every patch... It wasn't prety. There are about 50-300~ people playing Battleborn at any given time, now. That's worse than a lot of indie games.

And it keeps happening.

ZOS did something conniving and manipulative, though. They launched a competitive-focused patch around the same time they launched One Tamriel. The changes to world bosses and dungeons were terrible. I feel that at least group dungeons should have continued to scale to the level of the leader of the group entering them. And they could have found a better execution for world bosses that wouldn't require cookie-cutter builds or groups to beat them. A lot of casuals came in around the time of One Tamriel, though, because they were excited about going anywhere in an MMO.

And ZOS is gearing up to do something conniving again. They're using player housing and soon Vvardenfel to try and coax people into playing despite the bad balance changes. The question is, though: Why make the bad balance changes in the first place? It benefits less than one per cent of the community, it alienates the casual players, and they'd be bringing in so many more people and making so much more money if they just balanced things in a more casual way. In a way that benefited casual players rather than just hyper-competitive people.

I have an idea...

I think that greed is playing a role. I think that the people at ZOS have the wrong idea about hyper-competitive people. They think those people play just to play. Not so. Hahaha, no. Both of them play to have a hierarchy. If PvP and PvE people lose the casuals whom they lord things over, they leave. So the casuals leave, and then the toxic, competitive people leave.

Question: Why not just stop appealing to the competitive people at all? Drop the dead weight. Lose a few hundred players and gain thousands more. Seems like a no-brainer.

I just think that the people in management positions are misguided and have wrong ideas about things, that they don't understand what a modern MMO actually looks like. They don't get that they'll get more loyal players, more money, and a healthier future just by appealing to casual people. Casual people become loyal to a game because they've been treated right, just as I've been with ESO. I've played a lot of alts, I don't need all this new content, I'm happy to play even without new content every month (or even three). I feel most casuals are the same way. I've also spent a lot of money on the crown store.

This just reeks of mismanagement of the worst degree. It really does. They have this twisted view that PvP players and end-game PvE players will continue to play even if they don't have casuals to lord things over. Like I've said, they leave. They left Champions, after all. And they never bothered with Warhammer Online or Wildstar to begin with because there weren't enough casuals to lord things over.

WoW is really the only ecosystem that keeps casuals around (via Skinner box addiction) for competitive people to lord things over. You can't compete with that. You really can't. Others have tried, and failed.

ZOS is walking a tightrope by trying to appeal to the competitive people by giving them casuals to lord over, whilst giving the casual audience reason to stay. How long do you think you can keep this up, ZOS? Really, how long?? How long until this all falls away from beneath you, leaving you to fall to your doom? You can't appeal to both. The casuals will move on if they're alienated because the people who don't play WoW are the ones smart enough to choose games that won't addict them, or don't suffer with addictions in the first place. So if you spurn us, we'll leave. There are other games that we can be loyal too. You can't mistreat us and expect us to continue to be loyal.

You're walking on a very fine line, here, ZOS. And it's all going to fall away... Just like it did with every other MMO. There's nothing that makes ESO special. There's nothing that will stop ESO from following the usual destructive path.

If you just drop the competitive people like dead weight, though? Well, then you could finally enjoy being the first MMO to actually be successful outside of WoW. The thing is is that the thing you're doing now? It's not special, ZOS. Champions Online did player housing and other things to try and keep the casuals around. And yes, it worked for a bit, because we were loyal to the game and we loved to play it. But as things just kept feeling more and more like a chore, every time we had to reroll our characters because of balance changes, every time we had to leave behind an iconic idea we liked... Well, the more we lost interest, the less loyal we were.

And that's how I'm feeling about ESO, right now. The constant balance screw-ups just to appeal to competitive people are wearing on my nerves. I don't even know if I'll be playing ESO when housing lands.

I hope you know what you're doing, ZOS. I have an opinion which is opposite of yours, that this balancing act can't continue. And you'll have to choose one audience over the other. And really, you should choose wisely. Really, don't take my word for it, just look at the bloody line of corpses behind you. Look at all the other failed MMOs and online games. Why did they fail? This very reason.

I'm not going to address much of your post but the bolder part there. I mean, it feels like you are projecting you experiences from other games onto ESO. And without numbers, just opinions, it's hard to emphasize.

But that bold part!! Do you feel you need to re-roll? So things aren't such a chore? Well, the Champion System has you covered. But think about those players that had arguably the 'worst' class. You think they might get dis-heartened knowing that they can never heal as good as 'X'. Or Damage as good as, tank as good as... You get my meaning.

They are the ones that suffer most. And leave most often, due to balance changes. So your complaints about being made feel unwelcome pale in comparison. This patch of all patches is for the casual. Perhaps I'll go into detail later, maybe in another thread, maybe right here, but I don't have time.

Perhaps for now, you can explain to me. On a character that is ALWAYS Progressing and learning and gearing etc. can any of the changes this patch make the player quit?

AlMcFly · January 2017

I'm incredibly hyped about the housing. None of the non-housing patch notes pertained to me in any way. I'll play the game ZOS makes and be fine. There are worse things in the world for me to worry about than a d*mn videogame.

Dubhliam · January 2017

I am actually quite happy to see some of the balance issues finally getting their spotlight time.

However, they missed some key balancing points while also making some "out of the blue" uncalled for changes.
These kind of changes that absolutely nobody asked for almost always create new and bigger problems.

Take a look at when RO got buffed for example a couple months back.
Nobody asked for it. RO was in a good place.
Then, for the next X months all we saw were "nerf jesus beam" threads (and rightfully so).

Why do they do such things?

Who the hell asked for a tanking Ice staff?
Where do they get such ideas?

Sylosi · January 2017

AuldWolf wrote: »

Well, then you could finally enjoy being the first MMO to actually be successful outside of WoW.

The irony... Part of the reason WoW has been successful over the years is precisely because they put resources into many areas of the game and accommodate many different groups of players, the exact opposite to what most MMOs do, who die because they cater to the exclusion of everything else to the biggest minority (casual PvE players) and they end up like Rift, LOTRO, etc, dead.

Oh and as for the nerfs, a streamer I watched today who I believe is with a very good raid guild pointed out damage needed nerfing in PvE because many mechanics are being bypassed by too high damage output from players, so let's stop the BS about all the nerfs being down to PvP, and consider that being able to bypass mechanics is not good gameplay and something needs to be done about that.

NeillMcAttack · January 2017

Dubhliam wrote: »

I am actually quite happy to see some of the balance issues finally getting their spotlight time.

However, they missed some key balancing points while also making some "out of the blue" uncalled for changes.
These kind of changes that absolutely nobody asked for almost always create new and bigger problems.

Take a look at when RO got buffed for example a couple months back.
Nobody asked for it. RO was in a good place.
Then, for the next X months all we saw were "nerf jesus beam" threads (and rightfully so).

Why do they do such things?

Who the hell asked for a tanking Ice staff?
Where do they get such ideas?

As soon as I read the staff change I posted in my guilds group chat the quote and "what the *** is this about?"

It does read as quite bizarre. If I was to define my first thoughts honestly it's;

"OK the devs have realized some immense oversight and relative to power creep and are aware that Mag is screwed in the long run."

Being that I have always favored the ice staff I'm a little biased and kinda excited tbf.

Like what?

Graynh · January 2017

1. Couldn't care less about housing. Some of the balancing changes are nice.
2. PvE proc nerf is just stupid, makes more sense to use two 1 piece monster sets now instead of a full set, but not the end of the world. (I quit anyways and am waiting for my third point to be adressed)
3. RNG. I can reliably clear vma on my stamplar in 50 minutes with as little as 2 deaths, I did 30 clears so far. I got 2 sharpened weapons so far (both were resto staves, thanks ZoS) 0 precise and a few useless nirnhoned that perform worse than my Hundings daggers. Before I end up as many others with 500 clears and still not getting the drop they want I quit. I was hoping they finally address that stupid RNG in some way but they didn't. Guess I see you on update 14 patch notes.

MakoFore · January 2017

I can't believe they didn't address the things that people have been complaining about- it makes me wonder do these guys even play the game!!??!

i mean they screwed over mag sorcs- rather than giving them any burst they took it away-
they didn't nerf destro ulti's- instead they left that alone- still not able to block or interrupt it- which is stupid!
they buffed the *** out of mag plars- as if they weren't the most cancerous builds in pvp right now. i mean- its like they looked at it jin terms of "oh 18 percent of players are magplars- we need to make it more attractive- , there are too many mag sorcs- we need to nerf them- rather than looking at actual power balance!
and STILL no changes to the traits- no balances in terms of nirnhoned, sharpened, precise, etc.

I mean do they even read these forums?!?! whats the point of us complaining every day- its for balance and adjustments- which need to be made live , often, and incrementally.

drastic changes like this will always make people happy- its like putting a tablespoon of seasoning in every minute- rather than pinches every second- u need to adjust constantly to get things right - instead of clumsily adding or subtracting 10percent to things every 4 months.

I just wish they would actively engage the players- the community has people with voices, ALCAST, DELTIA, SYPHER, FENGRUSH, KODI, etc- who are all really really active- play alot and probably know more about the game than the developers- they would have been great to have been consulted- watching theyre streams they always have good ideas and really want what we all want- balance- but actually have an insight how to go about it. I'm amazed they weren't consulted given how much they contrubuutre to the gaming community.

THEDKEXPERIENCE · January 2017

MakoFore wrote: »

I can't believe they didn't address the things that people have been complaining about- it makes me wonder do these guys even play the game!!??!

i mean they screwed over mag sorcs- rather than giving them any burst they took it away-
they didn't nerf destro ulti's- instead they left that alone- still not able to block or interrupt it- which is stupid!
they buffed the *** out of mag plars- as if they weren't the most cancerous builds in pvp right now. i mean- its like they looked at it jin terms of "oh 18 percent of players are magplars- we need to make it more attractive- , there are too many mag sorcs- we need to nerf them- rather than looking at actual power balance!
and STILL no changes to the traits- no balances in terms of nirnhoned, sharpened, precise, etc.

I mean do they even read these forums?!?! whats the point of us complaining every day- its for balance and adjustments- which need to be made live , often, and incrementally.

drastic changes like this will always make people happy- its like putting a tablespoon of seasoning in every minute- rather than pinches every second- u need to adjust constantly to get things right - instead of clumsily adding or subtracting 10percent to things every 4 months.

I just wish they would actively engage the players- the community has people with voices, ALCAST, DELTIA, SYPHER, FENGRUSH, KODI, etc- who are all really really active- play alot and probably know more about the game than the developers- they would have been great to have been consulted- watching theyre streams they always have good ideas and really want what we all want- balance- but actually have an insight how to go about it. I'm amazed they weren't consulted given how much they contrubuutre to the gaming community.

Where exactly was this Magplar buff?

Maikon · January 2017

MakoFore wrote: »

I can't believe they didn't address the things that people have been complaining about- it makes me wonder do these guys even play the game!!??!

i mean they screwed over mag sorcs- rather than giving them any burst they took it away-
they didn't nerf destro ulti's- instead they left that alone- still not able to block or interrupt it- which is stupid!
they buffed the *** out of mag plars- as if they weren't the most cancerous builds in pvp right now. i mean- its like they looked at it jin terms of "oh 18 percent of players are magplars- we need to make it more attractive- , there are too many mag sorcs- we need to nerf them- rather than looking at actual power balance!
and STILL no changes to the traits- no balances in terms of nirnhoned, sharpened, precise, etc.

I mean do they even read these forums?!?! whats the point of us complaining every day- its for balance and adjustments- which need to be made live , often, and incrementally.

drastic changes like this will always make people happy- its like putting a tablespoon of seasoning in every minute- rather than pinches every second- u need to adjust constantly to get things right - instead of clumsily adding or subtracting 10percent to things every 4 months.

I just wish they would actively engage the players- the community has people with voices, ALCAST, DELTIA, SYPHER, FENGRUSH, KODI, etc- who are all really really active- play alot and probably know more about the game than the developers- they would have been great to have been consulted- watching theyre streams they always have good ideas and really want what we all want- balance- but actually have an insight how to go about it. I'm amazed they weren't consulted given how much they contrubuutre to the gaming community.

They said they intended destroy ult to be that strong, so why would they change it? Just because you constantly die to it? No
What buffs did magplars get? They sure as hell aren't the cancerous build atm.
Since when does any of the traits need to be balanced? They're just fine as they always have been.

Korah_Eaglecry · January 2017

Recremen wrote: »

We have literally not been able to begin testing the balance changes at all, so while I like and dislike certain things in theory, I am strongly reserving judgement until good and thorough, number-intensive testing has been done.

The housing of course is delightful and while I must also test that thoroughly, I don't feel presumptuous saying that it's going to be top-notch based on what we already know.

I dont need to test the Dragon Blood change to see that its going to negatively impact my build. Im not going to sacrifice more and more Magicka just so the heal kicks in enough for my health to be impacted. As a Magicka DK, if my Magicka pool is depleted Im for sure dead. Id rather just remove the ability all together and find something else that wont demand I sacrifice more and more Magicka to get a useful heal.

Saucy_Jack · January 2017

If I'm misspeaking here, someone please correct me, but it seems to me that the reason why a lot of MMOs cater to the ultra-competitive crowd is because the ultra-competitive people are also the ones who tend to stream their gameplay, i.e. they're the ones who give the game free press on Youtube/Twitch/insert-streaming-online-media-site-here.

The casuals generally don't stream, and if they did, they tend to be the players with less of an online influence, since no one wants to spend/waste their precious free time watching some schlub ham-fist his way through content. They watch to see the game played and played well (fail-videos aside).

So it makes sense that if a lot of these high-influence players are making a stink about PVP balance, ESO would listen to them rather than a casual like me who goes on, does kiosk runs for deals, enjoys guild chat, and maybe farms mats for a bit before logging off.

Uphz · January 2017

Im just a bit sad about curse.. a little bit ;(

Jeremy · January 2017

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

I'm pretty happy to be honest! I actually haven't been this excited about a patch in ESO since IC.

It's appearing like many are not happy but let's try some numbers.

Aside from housing (which I'm looking forward to) I don't see much else to get excited about. The nerf to proc sets is going to hit me particularly hard and I have heard of several other nerfs in store for my class (Templar). The magicka steal thingy sounds like it might be interesting at least.

The housing system does look awesome though.

Lylith · January 2017

Maikon wrote: »

MakoFore wrote: »

I can't believe they didn't address the things that people have been complaining about- it makes me wonder do these guys even play the game!!??!

i mean they screwed over mag sorcs- rather than giving them any burst they took it away-
they didn't nerf destro ulti's- instead they left that alone- still not able to block or interrupt it- which is stupid!
they buffed the *** out of mag plars- as if they weren't the most cancerous builds in pvp right now. i mean- its like they looked at it jin terms of "oh 18 percent of players are magplars- we need to make it more attractive- , there are too many mag sorcs- we need to nerf them- rather than looking at actual power balance!
and STILL no changes to the traits- no balances in terms of nirnhoned, sharpened, precise, etc.

I mean do they even read these forums?!?! whats the point of us complaining every day- its for balance and adjustments- which need to be made live , often, and incrementally.

drastic changes like this will always make people happy- its like putting a tablespoon of seasoning in every minute- rather than pinches every second- u need to adjust constantly to get things right - instead of clumsily adding or subtracting 10percent to things every 4 months.

I just wish they would actively engage the players- the community has people with voices, ALCAST, DELTIA, SYPHER, FENGRUSH, KODI, etc- who are all really really active- play alot and probably know more about the game than the developers- they would have been great to have been consulted- watching theyre streams they always have good ideas and really want what we all want- balance- but actually have an insight how to go about it. I'm amazed they weren't consulted given how much they contrubuutre to the gaming community.

They said they intended destroy ult to be that strong, so why would they change it? Just because you constantly die to it? No
What buffs did magplars get? They sure as hell aren't the cancerous build atm.
Since when does any of the traits need to be balanced? They're just fine as they always have been.

Uphz wrote: »

Im just a bit sad about curse.. a little bit ;(

and then some.

tspecherb14_ESO · January 2017

covenant_merchant wrote: »

There's "adapt" and there's "weep uncontrollably over the fact that your class has nothing good left and you'll have to reroll".

Since the dawn of MMOs

technohic · January 2017

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

MakoFore wrote: »

I can't believe they didn't address the things that people have been complaining about- it makes me wonder do these guys even play the game!!??!

i mean they screwed over mag sorcs- rather than giving them any burst they took it away-
they didn't nerf destro ulti's- instead they left that alone- still not able to block or interrupt it- which is stupid!
they buffed the *** out of mag plars- as if they weren't the most cancerous builds in pvp right now. i mean- its like they looked at it jin terms of "oh 18 percent of players are magplars- we need to make it more attractive- , there are too many mag sorcs- we need to nerf them- rather than looking at actual power balance!
and STILL no changes to the traits- no balances in terms of nirnhoned, sharpened, precise, etc.

I mean do they even read these forums?!?! whats the point of us complaining every day- its for balance and adjustments- which need to be made live , often, and incrementally.

drastic changes like this will always make people happy- its like putting a tablespoon of seasoning in every minute- rather than pinches every second- u need to adjust constantly to get things right - instead of clumsily adding or subtracting 10percent to things every 4 months.

I just wish they would actively engage the players- the community has people with voices, ALCAST, DELTIA, SYPHER, FENGRUSH, KODI, etc- who are all really really active- play alot and probably know more about the game than the developers- they would have been great to have been consulted- watching theyre streams they always have good ideas and really want what we all want- balance- but actually have an insight how to go about it. I'm amazed they weren't consulted given how much they contrubuutre to the gaming community.

Where exactly was this Magplar buff?

Radiant Aura. I know it will enable me to add a little spell damage and remove a little regen.

DragonBound · January 2017

Looking at the pts forums I have not seen anyone praise the balance changes except for a few of them, I do not see anyone literally anyone happy about the nerfs, changes to curse on sorc is very questionable as many other changes, hopefully they it will change.

DragonBound · January 2017

Saucy_Jack wrote: »

If I'm misspeaking here, someone please correct me, but it seems to me that the reason why a lot of MMOs cater to the ultra-competitive crowd is because the ultra-competitive people are also the ones who tend to stream their gameplay, i.e. they're the ones who give the game free press on Youtube/Twitch/insert-streaming-online-media-site-here.

The casuals generally don't stream, and if they did, they tend to be the players with less of an online influence, since no one wants to spend/waste their precious free time watching some schlub ham-fist his way through content. They watch to see the game played and played well (fail-videos aside).

So it makes sense that if a lot of these high-influence players are making a stink about PVP balance, ESO would listen to them rather than a casual like me who goes on, does kiosk runs for deals, enjoys guild chat, and maybe farms mats for a bit before logging off.

If that is true people are catching on and I have heard this before about other mmorpgs but it does not make sense though since they do not have some esports thing going to my understanding so I do not see how eso would benefit from it.

And trust me it will not fly in mmorpgs in the end, it will ruin them and the majority do not want to stick around for that kind of meta gameplay. Isn't that what mobas are for? I paid for an mmorpg, I expect an mmorpg, not a moba.

datgladiatah · January 2017

I'm just disappointed that it's not a class focused patch i guess. Nerfing proc sets was stupid because I don't think they give high damage compared to simply boosting your stats/resources and spamming. Most monster sets seem pretty pointless now. Especially since none of them really have any mechanics and just added free damage anyways. It was quick and lazily added in the OT patch so, maybe something will change about them in the future.

I'm just disappointed that after almost 2 years nothing new has come class wise. No new spells. No new options. Just removing morphs for stamina morphs and adding very little to mechanically boring classes like the sorcerer. Tons of themes and magic types in TES canon aren't playable in the game. Options are limited and the last few DLCs added give nothing but more sets you can't use because TBS is still superior in most pve situations.

ESO is just kind of boring. And that makes me sad. I don't really have issues with the patch notes besides it doesn't add more to anything besides casual PvE players. And like, the gold sink is *** crazy. I can barely afford sets and motifs and I've been playing straight for a year. I'm not going to put it all on a house that i'll have to continue to invest in if only for casual purposes. I can barely hold my gold as is. So I don't think many people will get a use out of houses at all and I'm still stuck playing the same class abilities i did in beta. I want more from the game. TES is about options and all i'm seeing is changes on issues that are misunderstandings on bigger issues, like the proc nerf, like the radiant destruction nerfs. There are still classes and builds that can solo some vet dungeons. There are still classes that have one optimal set up and little possibility outside that. Besides stagnating, where are the options?

kevlarto_ESO · January 2017

I think more could be done in the balance and nerf department, but it will be interesting.

mb10 · January 2017

The whole build up to the Mag DK class changes was absolute BS lmao

5% more to whips is literally about 500 more damage
Nerfed standard of might
Cogulating blood punishes good sustainers

Just about nothing changed tbh. Still a load of useless skills.