PSA: On Multi-Role Hybrid Builds and the Dungeon Meta

Funkopotamus · January 2017

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

I agree. "Play as you want" only applies to Solo content.

Hybrids are pretty worthless in Group content.

Also, clever DPS with medium armor, and 19K health: Sorry Bro, you are not a Tank.

The problem with Casual Scrolls Online
is that this game doesn't know what it wants to be... Is it a single player RPG or a MMO.. Just like the point of this topic. The game is trying to be a hybrid and failing at doing either one very well.. This game suffers from people thinking it is skyrim with friends.

The trouble is that 80% of this games content is WAY to easy and allows a player to "Play how they want" and then when those players try the other 20% of the game with those "Skyrim with friends" character builds they get the -Blank- stomped out of them and the group.

We cannot blame the players as ZOS has hand held the player base through that 80% and allowed players to run through the game 1-2 shotting everything and then flip the script on those players with dungeons.

It is not the players fault it is a serious designed flaw and the fault of the developers. All we can do is try to inform the players and try to help them. At least all of my guild members do this.

starkerealm · January 2017

HatchetHaro wrote: »

jaburns wrote: »

I'm pretty sure that @HatchetHaro is specifically referring to people running vet trials. (I hope he's only referring to that.) Yes, the meta will help a raid complete a trial with the highest possible score... but to discount people theorycrafting and trying new builds would be ridiculous. That's how the meta comes to exist, afterall. Theorycrafting.

However, if someone is running a hybrid build that's not even close to the meta- I won't kick them from a group. (unless they really, really suck) You can "play as you want" with 99% of this game. So, do so and enjoy it. I'm damn sure not wearing Tava's on my tank... but I'm also not going to run a vet trial.

The meta will, as it always does, change. Don't get chained down by it.

Actually referring to people running dungeons on a Magplar with points into health and stamina, full heavy armor and 2H on both bars. Yeah, that.

Also by "meta" I'm not talking about build metas; I'm talking about role metas, and that pretty much remains the same most of the time: 1 tank, 1 healer, and 2 dps. Literally built right into the group finder. I'll just edit that into my post since most people don't seem to be able to grasp that.

Mybad, I thought you were talking about people getting out of their cookie cutter before they've learned the basics and understand the game, not just people who queue for rolls they flat out can't do.

dday3six · January 2017

Funkopotamus wrote: »

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

I agree. "Play as you want" only applies to Solo content.

Hybrids are pretty worthless in Group content.

Also, clever DPS with medium armor, and 19K health: Sorry Bro, you are not a Tank.

The problem with Casual Scrolls Online
is that this game doesn't know what it wants to be... Is it a single player RPG or a MMO.. Just like the point of this topic. The game is trying to be a hybrid and failing at doing either one very well.. This game suffers from people thinking it is skyrim with friends.

The trouble is that 80% of this games content is WAY to easy and allows a player to "Play how they want" and then when those players try the other 20% of the game with those "Skyrim with friends" character builds they get the -Blank- stomped out of them and the group.

We cannot blame the players as ZOS has hand held the player base through that 80% and allowed players to run through the game 1-2 shotting everything and then flip the script on those players with dungeons.

It is not the players fault it is a serious designed flaw and the fault of the developers. All we can do is try to inform the players and try to help them. At least all of my guild members do this.

QFT

Funny enough much of the "toxicity" certain people keep bemoaning is really just clashes arising from conflicting player mindsets. Often there isn't even someone in 'the wrong', more just players' desire for radically differing gameplay experiences.

Glurin · January 2017

dday3six wrote: »

Funkopotamus wrote: »

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

I agree. "Play as you want" only applies to Solo content.

Hybrids are pretty worthless in Group content.

Also, clever DPS with medium armor, and 19K health: Sorry Bro, you are not a Tank.

The problem with Casual Scrolls Online
is that this game doesn't know what it wants to be... Is it a single player RPG or a MMO.. Just like the point of this topic. The game is trying to be a hybrid and failing at doing either one very well.. This game suffers from people thinking it is skyrim with friends.

The trouble is that 80% of this games content is WAY to easy and allows a player to "Play how they want" and then when those players try the other 20% of the game with those "Skyrim with friends" character builds they get the -Blank- stomped out of them and the group.

We cannot blame the players as ZOS has hand held the player base through that 80% and allowed players to run through the game 1-2 shotting everything and then flip the script on those players with dungeons.

It is not the players fault it is a serious designed flaw and the fault of the developers. All we can do is try to inform the players and try to help them. At least all of my guild members do this.

QFT

Funny enough much of the "toxicity" certain people keep bemoaning is really just clashes arising from conflicting player mindsets. Often there isn't even someone in 'the wrong', more just players' desire for radically differing gameplay experiences.

Yes, this difference in mindset has played itself out many times across many titles. It's been described once as beating the game v.s. playing the game. One side wants to enjoy the game and the experience. The other just wants to "win", whatever that means, and don't give a crap about the game itself.

I disagree with the assessment that both sides are equally at fault for the toxicity, however. Often the toxicity originates from the hyper-competitive and e-peen obsessed among us when others fail to meet their standards. Naturally, these people are almost exclusively on the "beat the game" side. Sorry, but it's even right there in some of the words they use as derogatory remarks to describe those that disagree with them. "Casual" and "carebear", for example. Implying that such people are much more even tempered than themselves.

JkahrrRadnar · January 2017

Glurin wrote: »

Yes, this difference in mindset has played itself out many times across many titles. It's been described once as beating the game v.s. playing the game. One side wants to enjoy the game and the experience. The other just wants to "win", whatever that means, and don't give a crap about the game itself.

I disagree with the assessment that both sides are equally at fault for the toxicity, however. Often the toxicity originates from the hyper-competitive and e-peen obsessed among us when others fail to meet their standards. Naturally, these people are almost exclusively on the "beat the game" side. Sorry, but it's even right there in some of the words they use as derogatory remarks to describe those that disagree with them. "Casual" and "carebear", for example. Implying that such people are much more even tempered than themselves.

^^^! My thoughts exactly
All these arguments for excluding casual players are based on the assumption that competitive, 'winning' orientated gameplay is inherently better and more valuable than whatever the 'lowlife scrubs' might get up to. -and that says everything about where the aggression in this debate originates.

But hey, wildly insulting and degrading strangers for how they choose to play an online game is surely more productive than trying to find a mutually beneficial solution.

runagate · January 2017

FortheloveofKrist wrote: »

Or you could just be patient and realize you are playing in a publicly accessible Group Finder and that...wait for it...the world doesn't revolve around you.

Apres moi, le deluge...of salt...

+10 billion for the apt quote.

Koensol · January 2017

HatchetHaro wrote: »

SunfireKnight86 wrote: »

Then you aren't talking about builds, you're talking about skills. And you aren't even really talking about skill, you're crying because you PUG and don't get to breeze through a dungeon in record time every time.

Get over it. Not me, not the next guy or gal, nobody in this whole game is here to cater to you. Nobody. If you don't like it, play with your mommy, or daddy, or whoever it is that usually wipes your sniveling nose. Any expectations you have for other people are self-prescribed. They can do dungeons if they want. Some of them can be tiaght, some of them can't. If you don't like it, you are the one who needs to not PUG, not them.By putting this toxic garbage out in the community, all you're doing is making sure new people don't get to play with your toy. That doesn't make you "good", it makes you a pissbaby. You are not the *** fun police.

Once more, you prove yourself to be incapable of understanding the point I'm trying to get at.

Uhm.. No, you are the one that misses the point. The actual problem here is loltard players that don't know what the heck they are doing. I.e. they lack skill. The problem isn't hybrid builds. I agree to some extent with you that if people Q for vet dungeons, they better make sure to pull their weight, or they will put the group down. But to put the problem on hybrid builds is a wrong. It is the people that are incapable of correctly making an effective hybrid build for vet dungeons that are the problem.

But the solution is pretty simple. Don't like it? Don't bring that guildy along, or find a different group. If it is your group, it is your rules. In that case the player should accept that if he doesn't fulfill his role, it is game over.

Bakkagami · January 2017

HatchetHaro wrote: »

FortheloveofKrist wrote: »

Or you could just be patient and realize you are playing in a publicly accessible Group Finder and that...wait for it...the world doesn't revolve around you.

Apres moi, le deluge...of salt...

There is a story behind this, and it involves a full 5 hour debate in TS and a lot of salt. At least you're right about the salt. Problem-in-question is a guildie, btw, so you're not even right in the "Group Finder" department.

So.... basically OP got on forums to rage about a guildie.... that's sad in and of itself.

HatchetHaro wrote: »

EDIT: By "meta" I am not referring to build metas. Build whatever the heck you want, just pull your weight. The meta I'm talking about is role metas, the exact meta that is literally coded into the group finder: 1 tank, 1 healer, 2 dps.
As for hybrid builds, I'm talking about multi-role builds, but resource-hybrid builds are still applicable in here, especially if you're a dps, unless you're running Pelinal's and know what you are doing.
Putting this edit in since many people misinterpreted this post as an advocate for cookie-cutter "meta" builds. That will be a topic for another time.

meta roles means next to nothing in pledges. They are just too easy for most good players I know to care about having dedicated roles. I cant even remember the last time i ran a dungeon with guildies where at least one person wasn't testing a new character or build or it was simply 3-4 dps. That being said, my personal pet peeve is "veteran" players who want to spec so focused into dps for dungeons that they lack even enough survivability to be useful for rezzes if healer or other dps goes down.
From what I gathered it's simply that the guy either is fairly new and doesn't understand mechanics of the game and your group/you are raging because u wiped too often. If the guy was tanking ask him to put on a taunt and, if needed, just explain why. Raging during the dungeon, or worse, on forums about it isn't helping anyone.

AlwaysOnFire · January 2017

Funkopotamus wrote: »

The problem with Casual Scrolls Online

I'm sorry, all I can think of is the Elder Scrolls theme music except in casual lounge or elevator music form. Mannimarco wears a laid-back polo shirt. Varen Aquilarios is in flip-flops. Nobody in the Harborage can decide on what pizza to order. The Grand Warlords ask you to call them by their first name. Nobody is angry about anything. Molag Bal demands your submission... if you want, or whatever.

laksikus · January 2017

Just a question. But doesnt Tank gear make a Tank?
I can swap between 3 gear Setups and do several roles, without changing anything else

Does that make me Bad?

vyndral13preub18_ESO · January 2017

Glurin wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Funkopotamus wrote: »

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

I agree. "Play as you want" only applies to Solo content.

Hybrids are pretty worthless in Group content.

Also, clever DPS with medium armor, and 19K health: Sorry Bro, you are not a Tank.

The problem with Casual Scrolls Online
is that this game doesn't know what it wants to be... Is it a single player RPG or a MMO.. Just like the point of this topic. The game is trying to be a hybrid and failing at doing either one very well.. This game suffers from people thinking it is skyrim with friends.

The trouble is that 80% of this games content is WAY to easy and allows a player to "Play how they want" and then when those players try the other 20% of the game with those "Skyrim with friends" character builds they get the -Blank- stomped out of them and the group.

We cannot blame the players as ZOS has hand held the player base through that 80% and allowed players to run through the game 1-2 shotting everything and then flip the script on those players with dungeons.

It is not the players fault it is a serious designed flaw and the fault of the developers. All we can do is try to inform the players and try to help them. At least all of my guild members do this.

QFT

Funny enough much of the "toxicity" certain people keep bemoaning is really just clashes arising from conflicting player mindsets. Often there isn't even someone in 'the wrong', more just players' desire for radically differing gameplay experiences.

Yes, this difference in mindset has played itself out many times across many titles. It's been described once as beating the game v.s. playing the game. One side wants to enjoy the game and the experience. The other just wants to "win", whatever that means, and don't give a crap about the game itself.

I disagree with the assessment that both sides are equally at fault for the toxicity, however. Often the toxicity originates from the hyper-competitive and e-peen obsessed among us when others fail to meet their standards. Naturally, these people are almost exclusively on the "beat the game" side. Sorry, but it's even right there in some of the words they use as derogatory remarks to describe those that disagree with them. "Casual" and "carebear", for example. Implying that such people are much more even tempered than themselves.

Like most things in life, I tend to think the most insults come from the side I'm not on, or don't agree with.

SolarCat02 · January 2017

My only complaint is that if you are going to use a meta build, please use it for its intended purpose, and adjust as needed when switching to a different part of the game.

Yesterday we queued with healer/tank/dps, looking for a second dps. Queue gave us a PvP two-handed stamsorc. This by itself, not a problem, but I had a nagging feeling in the back of my mind. "Please, just don't let him be using Tremorscale."

Well, guess what? Yup. He was over taunting the bosses the whole dungeon, getting one-shot, and then we got to deal with kiting the boss for another 13 seconds waiting for our tank to be able to retaunt the boss.

Called him out on it. "I need to taunt, I have Tremorscale! It's not like this is a difficult dungeon or anything!" he cried from his once again dead puddle of ash on the floor. He died twelve times in that dungeon, all from Ransacking aggro he couldn't handle. The rest of us died once between the three of us, when a boss he promised *not* to aggro (CoH I final boss, he promised to only taunt the stationary one, but nope) turned and one-shot the other dps right after Mr. Tremorscale taunted and died. We stopped resurrecting him and three-manned the rest. We should have kicked him, but at that point we all wanted to show him just how much we had been carrying his sorry clueless behind.

And for goodness sake, if you are going to be taunting anyway, why in the world would you sit in queue for an hour as a dps when you can queue as a tank and at least not be interfering with someone else's job?

On the plus side, our tank got the last Ebon ring he needed, so hooray! He is fully Trials geared now.

Wifeaggro13 · January 2017

Bakkagami wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

FortheloveofKrist wrote: »

Or you could just be patient and realize you are playing in a publicly accessible Group Finder and that...wait for it...the world doesn't revolve around you.

Apres moi, le deluge...of salt...

There is a story behind this, and it involves a full 5 hour debate in TS and a lot of salt. At least you're right about the salt. Problem-in-question is a guildie, btw, so you're not even right in the "Group Finder" department.

So.... basically OP got on forums to rage about a guildie.... that's sad in and of itself.

HatchetHaro wrote: »

EDIT: By "meta" I am not referring to build metas. Build whatever the heck you want, just pull your weight. The meta I'm talking about is role metas, the exact meta that is literally coded into the group finder: 1 tank, 1 healer, 2 dps.
As for hybrid builds, I'm talking about multi-role builds, but resource-hybrid builds are still applicable in here, especially if you're a dps, unless you're running Pelinal's and know what you are doing.
Putting this edit in since many people misinterpreted this post as an advocate for cookie-cutter "meta" builds. That will be a topic for another time.

meta roles means next to nothing in pledges. They are just too easy for most good players I know to care about having dedicated roles. I cant even remember the last time i ran a dungeon with guildies where at least one person wasn't testing a new character or build or it was simply 3-4 dps. That being said, my personal pet peeve is "veteran" players who want to spec so focused into dps for dungeons that they lack even enough survivability to be useful for rezzes if healer or other dps goes down.
From what I gathered it's simply that the guy either is fairly new and doesn't understand mechanics of the game and your group/you are raging because u wiped too often. If the guy was tanking ask him to put on a taunt and, if needed, just explain why. Raging during the dungeon, or worse, on forums about it isn't helping anyone.

this is the inherent flaw in ZOS current game direction the game is just about DPS now. It doesn nothing for the new player to teach them how to play for trials and prepare. People develop knowledge and skills required for trials through the fourman dungeons . its bleeding the community faster then the VR increases.its a bad game direction to dumb the game down this much.Personally i think they are doing this because its easier cheaper and creates less balance issues . the Post Launch team of 2016 did a very poor job of making the game fun.

Tabbycat · January 2017

If you form your own group, you can determine the meta build of those you group with.

If you don't form your own group, you get the luck of the draw. Which means, you have no control over who you get grouped with. Good luck telling everyone how to play the game.

Hint: it usually doesn't go over very well.

Dawnblade · January 2017

This issue comes up a lot in games like ESO that are marketed to the RP / lore / solo gamer crowd, yet have cooperative group content designed and tuned with the expectation of players filling specific roles and being able to perform those roles.

The more difficult the content (e.g. Vet), the more the 'I can play my way' types can undermine the ability of a group to successfully complete the content.

To me, there is nothing wrong with playing however you want in solo play, but the moment you start joining groups for cooperative play, you should be able to competently fill your role and carry your weight (not perfect play with a perfect gear set and a bazillion CP - just be reasonably competent and perform your role) .

If someone in harder group content is not filling their role and / or their poor performance is causing issues, explaining how the trinity system works, the roles each play, and how a character's build, gear and selected abilities supports each role (with specific comments regarding how their build, abilities, gear, etc affects their performance of their chosen role) is appropriate.

If they refuse to listen, adapt, perform their role, and / or are performing so poorly that the group cannot succeed, then kick them.

If they are a guild member and refuse to work with the team and pull the 'I can play however I want', just don't invite them to run difficult group content.

Brutusmax1mus · January 2017

I tank, heal and dps every 4 man i do. Bad players and hybrid roles are different. Sounds like you're Guildie is bad.

Koensol · January 2017

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Bakkagami wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

FortheloveofKrist wrote: »

Or you could just be patient and realize you are playing in a publicly accessible Group Finder and that...wait for it...the world doesn't revolve around you.

Apres moi, le deluge...of salt...

There is a story behind this, and it involves a full 5 hour debate in TS and a lot of salt. At least you're right about the salt. Problem-in-question is a guildie, btw, so you're not even right in the "Group Finder" department.

So.... basically OP got on forums to rage about a guildie.... that's sad in and of itself.

HatchetHaro wrote: »

EDIT: By "meta" I am not referring to build metas. Build whatever the heck you want, just pull your weight. The meta I'm talking about is role metas, the exact meta that is literally coded into the group finder: 1 tank, 1 healer, 2 dps.
As for hybrid builds, I'm talking about multi-role builds, but resource-hybrid builds are still applicable in here, especially if you're a dps, unless you're running Pelinal's and know what you are doing.
Putting this edit in since many people misinterpreted this post as an advocate for cookie-cutter "meta" builds. That will be a topic for another time.

meta roles means next to nothing in pledges. They are just too easy for most good players I know to care about having dedicated roles. I cant even remember the last time i ran a dungeon with guildies where at least one person wasn't testing a new character or build or it was simply 3-4 dps. That being said, my personal pet peeve is "veteran" players who want to spec so focused into dps for dungeons that they lack even enough survivability to be useful for rezzes if healer or other dps goes down.
From what I gathered it's simply that the guy either is fairly new and doesn't understand mechanics of the game and your group/you are raging because u wiped too often. If the guy was tanking ask him to put on a taunt and, if needed, just explain why. Raging during the dungeon, or worse, on forums about it isn't helping anyone.

this is the inherent flaw in ZOS current game direction the game is just about DPS now. It doesn nothing for the new player to teach them how to play for trials and prepare. People develop knowledge and skills required for trials through the fourman dungeons . its bleeding the community faster then the VR increases.its a bad game direction to dumb the game down this much.Personally i think they are doing this because its easier cheaper and creates less balance issues . the Post Launch team of 2016 did a very poor job of making the game fun.

How many times are you going to repeat this on the forums? My god...

alexkdd99 · January 2017

FortheloveofKrist wrote: »

Or you could just be patient and realize you are playing in a publicly accessible Group Finder and that...wait for it...the world doesn't revolve around you.

Apres moi, le deluge...of salt...

That is exactly what op is saying.

You are playing with others and as such should carry your own weight and fulfill the roles that YOU selected.

Don't select roles you can't fulfil. Because like you said it is a public group finder and everyone should only pick roles they can do.

If you are doing the things op is taking about then you are acting as if the world revolves around you and expect others to pick up your slack.

SunfireKnight86 wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

SunfireKnight86 wrote: »

This is such a load of ***. The whole myth of this game isn't that "play how you want" is bad advice, it's that metas don't matter outside of speed trials and emperor hunting. (And even then a skilled player can fudge metas)

A templar *** all over this elitist crap. I can heal through any dungeon, vet or normal, while just using Breath of Life and still put out 20-25k DPS with minimal effort. I can throw puncture, a few buffs, and heavy stamina stacked armor sets on in 1 second with gear swap and seamlessly tick over to tank with a minimal loss of DPS and huge gain to survivability. I can stack my bar correctly, throw on my DPS gear back on (same as my heal gear OMG YOU DON'T NEED SPC TO WIN?!) , and out DPS half the people I play with.

Stop. Just stop. This whole, "I'm so cool, I know meta!" *** is basement dweller level elitism. It serves no purpose other than to alienate new players. It's a half ass way to lord the fact that you've played longer over people who just want to enjoy the game, and it has no place in the community. None. Zero.

If you don't like the way people play, don't PUG. And if you can only run PvP and vet dungeons with the bleeding edge meta, get gud.

Of bloody course you can slot a burst heal and still do damage, but that's not the point. Guess what? So can I. I can put out 30k dps while maintaining a taunt on a boss and using Vigor to keep my teammates alive. Hurr dee durr. I can also literally press two keys and seamlessly swap to an endgame tanking build that brings buffs to the team like no tomorrow. Your example is invalid.

Sure thing, gear swap is a thing, but I'm not even talking about gear swap. I'm not even talking about people who know what they are doing. If you know what you are doing, whoop dee doo; do what you want since you can carry your weight!

Thing is, you are completely missing the point of my post. I am talking about the people who can't even do jack *** with their amazing hybrid builds. Again, the meta is there for a reason. If you're not even remotely good at anything pertaining to your role you should definitely stop what you're doing and stick with the meta until you know what you are doing. This "basement dweller level elitism" is tried and tested to be effective and foolproof, and being different does not mean that you're being useful. If you're useful, good, go ahead and be different all you want, just make sure you're carrying your weight. If you're not useful, well, you're not even close to the meta, because the meta makes sure that everyone is useful.

Another thing is that if they want to enjoy the game, then they shouldn't do dungeons, since it would simply just hinder the rest of the group's enjoyment of the game. Last I checked, 3 > 1. That 1 is going to be kicked if he insists on being a detriment to the team, and he can't do anything about it.

So, you stop. If you're so good, go ahead and solo vet dungeons, do it all by yourself; you don't need a team, after all.

Then you aren't talking about builds, you're talking about skill and knowledge. And you aren't even really talking about skill, you're crying because you PUG and don't get to breeze through a dungeon in record time every time.

Get over it. Not me, not the next guy or gal, nobody in this whole game is here to cater to you. Nobody. If you don't like it, play with your mommy, or daddy, or whoever it is that usually wipes your sniveling nose. Any expectations you have for other people are self-prescribed. They can do dungeons if they want. Some of them can be taught, some of them can't. If you don't like it, you are the one who needs to not PUG, not them. By putting this toxic garbage out in the community, all you're doing is making sure new people don't get to play with your toy. That doesn't make you "good", it makes you a pissbaby. You are not the *** fun police.

Except you are wrong. People have expectations based on the roles that others select. So no these are not self prescribed expectations but expectations based on what each individual said they could do.

So no if you can not fulfil a role then don't select it, you are saying you can do one thing but can't.

If I say I can do something then people would rightfully have the expectations that I can do what I said I could.

People have expectations that each person can fulfill the roles that THEY selected. These are not prescribed by anyone but the person selecting them.

The insults you throw out only show your inability to debate anything.

DragonBound · January 2017

Funkopotamus wrote: »

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

I agree. "Play as you want" only applies to Solo content.

Hybrids are pretty worthless in Group content.

Also, clever DPS with medium armor, and 19K health: Sorry Bro, you are not a Tank.

The problem with Casual Scrolls Online
is that this game doesn't know what it wants to be... Is it a single player RPG or a MMO.. Just like the point of this topic. The game is trying to be a hybrid and failing at doing either one very well.. This game suffers from people thinking it is skyrim with friends.

The trouble is that 80% of this games content is WAY to easy and allows a player to "Play how they want" and then when those players try the other 20% of the game with those "Skyrim with friends" character builds they get the -Blank- stomped out of them and the group.

We cannot blame the players as ZOS has hand held the player base through that 80% and allowed players to run through the game 1-2 shotting everything and then flip the script on those players with dungeons.

It is not the players fault it is a serious designed flaw and the fault of the developers. All we can do is try to inform the players and try to help them. At least all of my guild members do this.

No that is not the problem at all, the problem is there needs to be steps taken to encourage people to go hybrid as hybrids have always existed in mmorpgs and do have a place in endgame content.

Iselin · January 2017

laksikus wrote: »

Just a question. But doesnt Tank gear make a Tank?
I can swap between 3 gear Setups and do several roles, without changing anything else

Does that make me Bad?

Yeah, if you're not also changing the abilities you slot on your bars, it does make you bad. You think taunts, self-heals and AOE CC helps your DPS?

SirCritical · January 2017

There are some true words in this thread, but do not forget: in this game you MUST deal some damage, even if you're the tank or the healer. A tank shouldn't rely just on stay-and-block-and-interrupt/bash-and-taunt-and-debuff-the-boss, but you have to build aggro on them, CC them, chain them, support the group, and damage, damage, damage.

LinearParadox · January 2017

The amount of push-back against the OP I'm seeing here is frightening, but illuminating as to why it's so hard to get a good dungeon group.

Let me put this a different way, in very plain terms. Were going to pretend...
"Hi, my character is a bard! That's the way I want to play and that's the way I'm going to play, no matter what!
When we go into a dungeon, I'm going to use /drum and type song lyrics into chat to spur you on to battle!
You can't say I'm not helping because this is 'play how you want' ESO, stop ruining my fun!

"

Now... pretty much anyone reading this should plainly be able to see that the above is utterly, completely, outlandishly flippin ABSURD. It's asinine to expect the other 3 players to carry this 4'th player through a dungeon as dead weight.
Now... what if I told you that some of these players, and their builds, are barely any better?
"DPS" that just stand there light attacking, or have 0 scaling so their skills are weaker than the tank's?
"Tanks" that can't stay up even against the easiest bosses, don't have a taunt, or don't have the stamina to block when necessary?
"Healers" Without a burst heal, or the sustain to get through a boss fight, etc?

I recently tried to run a PUG on my healer...
Tank had 14K health (Lowest in the group) and repeatedly died to bosses in 1-shots. (Not my fault as a healer, I can't heal someone when they go from 100-0 in one attack)
One of our "DPS" had over 30K health. On a Magsorc. Hit like a wet noodle.
After taking nearly 10 minutes to kill Mad Mortine in Spindle 2, I stopped. Note it didn't take that long because of retries, I was keeping the fight going... it simply took the group almost 10 agonizing minutes just to kill the first boss of the dungeon.
THIS is what op is talking about.
One member of our group was a lvl 45. I gave them a pass even though they ought to know better by then, could've been their first dungeon or whatever. The other two dead-weights were CP 300+. NO EXCUSES.

But this entitlement, which is really what it is, to walk into a group environment for group content, and have this attitude of "It's all about me and how I want to play." is *** ridiculous and people are fully in the right to kick players that insist on dragging others down for their selfish, self-centered playstyle.

Disclaimer 1:
Before anyone calls my skill into question, I regularly solo Vet dungeons. I know how to beat them, I know the mechanics, and I'm happy to help people if they'll listen.

Disclaimer 2:
I, like the OP, am NOT slamming hybrid builds, or off-meta builds, or any such generalization. I'm talking about (and I believe OP is too) players with dysfunctional builds that think they're good, and outright refuse to see their error. Things like a character that uses exclusively magicka scaling abilities and weapons, but stacks stamina and weapon damage either arbitrarily, or for some misguided rational like "having lots of stam to dodgeroll" or something.

Disclaimer 3:
I'm not here to smash people's fun. I'm here to have fun just like everyone else, and I fully recognize that everyone's definition of fun varies from person to person, and no one definition can be held more 'correct' than another, but when one person's 'fun' involves screwing over other people, that's not okay. You can't show up and hang weights around everyone's necks then wonder why you're everyone's least favorite person all of a sudden.

dday3six · January 2017

Glurin wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Funkopotamus wrote: »

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

I agree. "Play as you want" only applies to Solo content.

Hybrids are pretty worthless in Group content.

Also, clever DPS with medium armor, and 19K health: Sorry Bro, you are not a Tank.

The problem with Casual Scrolls Online
is that this game doesn't know what it wants to be... Is it a single player RPG or a MMO.. Just like the point of this topic. The game is trying to be a hybrid and failing at doing either one very well.. This game suffers from people thinking it is skyrim with friends.

The trouble is that 80% of this games content is WAY to easy and allows a player to "Play how they want" and then when those players try the other 20% of the game with those "Skyrim with friends" character builds they get the -Blank- stomped out of them and the group.

We cannot blame the players as ZOS has hand held the player base through that 80% and allowed players to run through the game 1-2 shotting everything and then flip the script on those players with dungeons.

It is not the players fault it is a serious designed flaw and the fault of the developers. All we can do is try to inform the players and try to help them. At least all of my guild members do this.

QFT

Funny enough much of the "toxicity" certain people keep bemoaning is really just clashes arising from conflicting player mindsets. Often there isn't even someone in 'the wrong', more just players' desire for radically differing gameplay experiences.

Yes, this difference in mindset has played itself out many times across many titles. It's been described once as beating the game v.s. playing the game. One side wants to enjoy the game and the experience. The other just wants to "win", whatever that means, and don't give a crap about the game itself.

I disagree with the assessment that both sides are equally at fault for the toxicity, however. Often the toxicity originates from the hyper-competitive and e-peen obsessed among us when others fail to meet their standards. Naturally, these people are almost exclusively on the "beat the game" side. Sorry, but it's even right there in some of the words they use as derogatory remarks to describe those that disagree with them. "Casual" and "carebear", for example. Implying that such people are much more even tempered than themselves.

Seems like you missed why I put 'toxicity' in quotations. By that I'm saying much of it is imagined, and stems from disagreement, and that disagreement stems from the playerbase seeking different things from the game. I'm also not talking about low to high end or causal to hardcore. I'm talking about singleplayer vs multiplayer. As was the comment I responded to.

Riejael · January 2017

JkahrrRadnar wrote: »

Question: You do realize that that many people play ESO simply to have fun?

This has nothing to do with that. If you have a person who clicks all three roles and gets placed into a tank or healing role without the right tools. That dungeon is a failure from the get go unless the other players by some aspect have enough side roles covered to make up the difference. But you have a badly equipped or built tank that is dropping in 1-2 hits, and the healer built to heal and the damage dealers built to do damage... what are they supposed to do?

You can't just say the tank is there to have fun. They're not having fun, they're failing. The bosses aren't dying, they're not dropping loot, the group is wasting soul gems and gear repairs. The tank isn't having fun, the healer isn't having fun, the DPS are not having fun.

Nothing is fun about that.

When you go into the dungeon finder, you are telling three other players that you have their back in whatever role you're playing. That you are going to do your best not to let them down. If you went in with a build or gearset that is doomed from the start. You not only let your group down.

You lied to them. You went back on your word with 3 players. You're a fraud.

How is that any different than a cheat or a scammer?

I don't know the context of your rant, but if, at it's base, this is another 'Noobs are ruining my experience, I wish everyone that's not as awesome as me was just banned from the game' thread then please just... find something else to do.

This has nothing to do with new players. A new player will try to do their best to fulfill and build to the role they select. That usually means plate on a tank and some form of damage on a DPS and a restro staff on a healer. You can tell a person's build/equipment if it was motivated by trying to do the role they selected but fell short due to naivety, ignorance, and inexperience.

And you can tell the one who took time and effort to make a hybrid build that can kill quest mobs.. decently. And survive to tell to tale. Aka the hybrid builds that the OP is talking about. I have a friend who makes builds like this. They have been playing a little longer than me.

Despite that.. they are not.. great at this game. They know it. And they do the group finder a favor by avoiding it. They need help even with some delves. But some players like this still join the group finder 'for fun' as you call it.

They rely on three other group members to carry them through. Is this right? How is that fun or fair for the other players? How is it fun when they decide they don't want a 5-10 minute queue and go in as a Healer or Tank? Its not about newbies or vets, some of these players have been here longer than some of us.

This is how I see it. When I queue. I go in with the mindset that I will try my best. I will do everything I can to both before (building and gearing my character) and after I join the group (by performing my role to the best of my ability). I don't believe its too much to ask of those other players to do the same for me.

I don't require my groupmates to use cookie cutter builds. I don't have any unrealistic goals for my groupmates. I just want them to perform their role they signed on for.

That means as a healer (the role I typically run dungeons with these days) I want my tank to keep the boss OFF of me. If I spend half a boss fight with a boss chasing me and that is NOT one of the mechanics, but due to the 'tank' not running with a taunt. I will boot that tank.

That means if a DPS is not killing adds that should have been killed like yesterday and instead tunnels the boss, or stands in stuff wondering why they die, or stand in a boss frontal and drop instantly, I will likely boot them.

As a healer I do my part to buff, regen, cure, and heal my partymembers. Keep them from dying, I like to think I do a decent job. Only deaths I have normally on my watch are oneshots (9k hp DPS getting nailed for 17k is not a damn thing I can do about), or standing in things that do more DPS than I can HPS. And my gear and build setup has ensured I haven't run out of magicka in serious situations, even those caused by mistakes.

I don't see myself as God's Gift to ESO, so I don't think my standards are terribly high.