SunfireKnight86 wrote: »I think the only person missing the point if your post is you. Let me put it in terms you'll understand.
Waaaaaaah! Waaaah! I PUG'd and didn't finish the dungeon in less than 5 minutes It took us almost 7 minutes cause some pug slowed us down Waaah!
HatchetHaro wrote: »
2. The meta is there for a reason.
.
Back in the day, meta (what an annoying word) was called the flavor of the month build. Meaning someone would come up with an idea/build that seemed to work well, and the sheeple all flocked to it. They would all claim that this build was the only acceptable way to succeed. If you didn't buy in you were ostracized.
The ironic thing? The current meta is all the rage, until someone comes up with something new and improved. The sheeple all switch to the 'new' meta. Anyone showing up to a dungeon using the old meta, is mocked then kicked. Where as a couple weeks earlier, he would have been embraced.
Such a paradox
I dislike they marketed one way and catered for another
If you market play as you want it should have been viable, to o complete all content with inc hard modes while pulling your weight not pulling the group down. I'd love to have had a hybrid but... I wanted to get through content,
so except for my tank - its a min max life for me.
Hallothiel wrote: »This. This why I am very loathe to even try dungeons.
Have said many times before that the main game does nothing to prepare the average player for dungeons. Never played an MMO before this one so didn't even know about 'roles' - and you can't get through the game as just a healer or tank so how does one learn? And having to respec can be costly.
timidobserver wrote: »I think the OP is right for newer players, but experienced players can pull off hybrids to some extent. For example, I've grouped with some pretty good heal tanks and dps healers. I will say that I've never experienced a good tank/dps.
That said, I don't think people should play a hybrid role unless they are making up for someone else that is under-performing or they can't find someone to fill the role they need.
WalksonGraves wrote: »I love how people think they know the meta based on things they read in the forums therefore all combinations of skills and abilities they haven't used are automatically terrible.
HatchetHaro wrote: »SunfireKnight86 wrote: »Then you aren't talking about builds, you're talking about skills. And you aren't even really talking about skill, you're crying because you PUG and don't get to breeze through a dungeon in record time every time.
Get over it. Not me, not the next guy or gal, nobody in this whole game is here to cater to you. Nobody. If you don't like it, play with your mommy, or daddy, or whoever it is that usually wipes your sniveling nose. Any expectations you have for other people are self-prescribed. They can do dungeons if they want. Some of them can be tiaght, some of them can't. If you don't like it, you are the one who needs to not PUG, not them.By putting this toxic garbage out in the community, all you're doing is making sure new people don't get to play with your toy. That doesn't make you "good", it makes you a pissbaby. You are not the *** fun police.
Once more, you prove yourself to be incapable of understanding the point I'm trying to get at.
I'll put it in baby words.
You like yum yum. That guy comes in and yucks your yum. Your yum is yucked. Don't be that guy.
The thing that inspired me to actually make this post wasn't even a PUG group. It is the result of an argument with a particularly stubborn guildie; that is it.
Here's the deal: I still reserve the right to play PUGs, and I still reserve the right to vote to kick players from PUGs. You're defending the guy being kicked. I find that hilarious and quite narrow-minded.
I'm not requiring that guy to cater to me; I'm requiring that guy to carry his weight, big difference; and if he refuses to do so, he's gonna get kicked, no excuses.
So if you want to go with your multi-role build, go ahead, I'm completely fine with it, but if it brings the rest of the team down along with me, then I will find problem with it. I'm not asking them to stop pugging, I'm asking them to stop bringing the team down.
So, again, stop. You're doing nothing by twisting my words and misinterpreting the message I'm trying to get across.
Basically, from what you said, you're completely fine with joining a PUG group for vCoA2 with 3 cp 10s who don't even remotely know how to play their roles and refuse to do anything about it. In which case, I pity you. Have fun!
HatchetHaro wrote: »TL;DR: Don't play multi-role hybrid builds if you don't know what you are doing; you're just going to bring the team down.
You think you are so smart with your three-role hybrid build that can do everything. You think it is great and that you are performing really well with it. You insist on having 35 points into magicka, 20 into health and the rest into stamina and think that you are amazing at resources. You think you can tank properly just by having heavy armor. You wonder why no one else has thought of your build as well as why no one else is running it.
Today, I'd like to talk to you about the "I play what I want" mentality in this game, as well as why you are not the smartest person in the world for running your own "godmode" hybrid build.
1. It is not effective. I'm not talking about it being slightly less effective than the meta builds; I'm talking about it being absolutely useless other than the 5k single target dps that you are dealing, the tiny bit of healing that you are doing that is absolutely negligible in the face of a boss that can deal 2k dps, or the little bit of tankiness you have that simply makes you the last person to die in a group by a split second.
If you queue as a dps while running this build, all you are being is a horrible damage-dealer, and putting much more of a load on the group as a whole because you aren't doing your job properly, the other dps is required to deal twice the amount he should be doing, the tank has to survive and maintain taunt for twice the time, and the healer has to micromanage her HoTs and resources with twice the effort.
If you queue as a healer while running this build, all you do is spam Breath of Life and can't even get magicka back to cast Breath of Life again because you insist on having 2H on both bars (so you can run up to the enemy and whack them while waiting for your magicka to regen slowly, apparently).
If you queue as a tank while running this build, haha yeah, have fun actually tanking before your team dies off becuase you don't know what a taunt is.
With this build, you are being absolutely worthless.
2. The meta is there for a reason. You see those three roles you can queue as in the dungeon finder? You are not supposed to select all three of them. You are supposed to tick off only the ones you can do effectively right off the bat. It's not a player-created meta; it's literally coded into the game that an effective dungeon group requires 1 tank, 1 healer, and 2 dps; not 1 tank, 1 healer, 1 dps, and 1 guy doing sweet FA.
Sometimes people stray from the meta and that's fine; you'll see 3 dps and 1 healer, or sometimes even just straight up 4 dps; that is completely fine because they can deal the damage that 3-4 dps can deal, and is still effective because they are still carrying their weight. They can completely cheese a vet dungeon and they can finish that dungeon in five minutes and then port out and back in to do it again.
You, on the other hand, on your ever-so-glorious hybrid build, are not. You are not carrying 1/3 of the weight in every role. You are doing much, much worse.
Sure thing, there are some hybrid builds that are viable. Healtanks are a thing in this game, so are dps+healer hybrids. Here's the deal, though: they can carry their weights in both roles, they are not bringing the team down in any way, and they are run by people who know exactly what they are doing. You don't even fit any of those criterias, so stand down.
You're not special. That build you have there has probably been done many times by many people before you even thought about it. They're not sticking with that build for a reason.
3. You don't "play what you want". I mean, sure, this game is marketed as such and you really can "play what you want", but that only applies to the quests and to solo content. Bring that crap into a dungeon, and you will bring the team down and will make everyone hate you for it. You're getting your arse kicked from the group if you refuse to carry your weight. That's just how it is. The meta defines the game, not your amazing multi-role build.
4. You don't just dismiss advice from the actual veterans of this game. Throw excuses around all you want, like "this game is play-what-you-want" or "but I'm not elite like you" or "I'm not good enough to follow the meta", but it does not change the fact that you still suck and you will continue to suck unless you actually take the advice the veterans give you into consideration. Pick a role and your main resource. Exchange the two-hander on your bars for staves or daggers. Slot some skills that are actually useful. Re-spec your attributes all into one resource. Check your rotations. Carry your weight.
You either get good at the game and actually make other people happy to have you on their group, or you keep on being stubborn and get kicked from half the dungeons you join.
Your choice.
Just don't *** about it when people complain.
Is it really elitist to expect atleast average performance from people who sign up to do a specific job?
timidobserver wrote: »I think the OP is right for newer players, but experienced players can pull off hybrids to some extent. For example, I've grouped with some pretty good heal tanks and dps healers. I will say that I've never experienced a good tank/dps.
Is it really elitist to expect atleast average performance from people who sign up to do a specific job?
If by "average performance" you mean cookie cutter glass cannon with slightly less than perfect rotations, then yes, it is. If, on the other hand you simply mean getting the job done without too much fuss even though it may have taken a little longer than an experienced meta sheep trial team, then no, it isn't.
That's the problem with elitists. They don't realize that their minimal expectations of other people are well beyond what is reasonable.
HatchetHaro wrote: »
2. The meta is there for a reason.
.
Back in the day, meta (what an annoying word) was called the flavor of the month build. Meaning someone would come up with an idea/build that seemed to work well, and the sheeple all flocked to it. They would all claim that this build was the only acceptable way to succeed. If you didn't buy in you were ostracized.
The ironic thing? The current meta is all the rage, until someone comes up with something new and improved. The sheeple all switch to the 'new' meta. Anyone showing up to a dungeon using the old meta, is mocked then kicked. Where as a couple weeks earlier, he would have been embraced.
Such a paradox
KingYogi415 wrote: »HatchetHaro wrote: »
2. The meta is there for a reason.
.
Back in the day, meta (what an annoying word) was called the flavor of the month build. Meaning someone would come up with an idea/build that seemed to work well, and the sheeple all flocked to it. They would all claim that this build was the only acceptable way to succeed. If you didn't buy in you were ostracized.
The ironic thing? The current meta is all the rage, until someone comes up with something new and improved. The sheeple all switch to the 'new' meta. Anyone showing up to a dungeon using the old meta, is mocked then kicked. Where as a couple weeks earlier, he would have been embraced.
Such a paradox
Odd how causuls try to turn this word into a bad thing.
META: Most Effective tactic available.
The important ones never change. And it's the easiest way to spot a "play your own way" pve carebear.
Stam dps: duel wield/bow
Magic dps: destro/destro destro/duel wield
Healer: resto/destro resto/duel wield
Cheers!
I'm pretty sure that @HatchetHaro is specifically referring to people running vet trials. (I hope he's only referring to that.) Yes, the meta will help a raid complete a trial with the highest possible score... but to discount people theorycrafting and trying new builds would be ridiculous. That's how the meta comes to exist, afterall. Theorycrafting.
However, if someone is running a hybrid build that's not even close to the meta- I won't kick them from a group. (unless they really, really suck) You can "play as you want" with 99% of this game. So, do so and enjoy it. I'm damn sure not wearing Tava's on my tank... but I'm also not going to run a vet trial.
The meta will, as it always does, change. Don't get chained down by it.