Endgame - What ESO lacks. (compared with WoW)

Vaoh · December 2016

GrumpyMuffin wrote: »

From a PVP point, I would love it if they did a system like The Feast in FFVIX - PVP content where you play quick matches of a few mins and work your way up the table for a 'season' at the end of the period you get rewards based upon your ranking. I can see this becoming super fun for competitive players who always team up together. PVP in ESO is fun, but let's face it, we play for an hour or two and at the end of it has anything changed when we log in again the next day. The campaigns are too long to see any meaningful contribution from an evening’s effort, in my opinion.

The flags added in IC would be great if they made that, say, 20 v 20 Capture The Flag lasting for 10/20/30 mins. In the same way that hardpoint works in COD. You can dip in for an hour and play a match all the way through, feel like you've achieved something for your evenings play, unlike current pvp

Anyways, just my pennies worth, but there is a reason people play COD so much and keep buying the latest version of it. It is not to play solider, or to play with guns (in most cases) but an environment where they can test themselves against others in short matches

Hopefully Battlegrounds achieves this.

Liofa · December 2016

I tell you why . Because ZOS don't bother with teaching mechanics . Yeah , they teach about the blocking , light attacking , interrupt and stuff during the tutorial . BUT this game has lots of more mechanics than that . Take the biggest example , animation cancelling . Who teaches that to a new player ? No one . Heavy Attack cancelling . I know and seen total of maybe 5 or 6 people who know it correctly including myself . I saw people who think they are the best but don't know that light attack gives them Ultimate regeneration buff . People creating tank builds with high amount of Stamina Recovery . Sadly , majority of players think 20k DPS is enough to clear veteran pledges in HM and they will do ok in trials as well . Who teaches this stuff to people ? Seriously . This may sound harsh but most people don't deserve to even try going to veteran trials .

It was mentioned before in this thread by someone else . Some CP capped people can't even complete nMoL . Except the high-end guilds , which are few , no one does PvE like it is supposed to be done . If people knew how this game is supposed to be played , there would be a lot more people who completed vMoL HM .

I have seen people joining DPS tests for guild invitation with Restoration Staves pulling 25k DPS and their excuse is ''I also heal and not die easily , isn't that better ?'' . NO ! It is not better . There is a huge information storage called internet and 99% of ESO playerbase don't know how to use it . There are people who still think animation cancelling is cheating . Really ? ZOS couldn't/didn't fix it and said it is intended . It is over . If you refuse to do animation cancelling , you don't deserve to play end-game PvE or PvP . This people I am talking about is not small in numbers by the way . You can see people crying in forums because they are getting killed in 3 seconds by people who know what they are doing or can't get above 25k DPS .

When people learn how to do research and be better by learning from people who actually know the game , this game can continue to grow . What is the point of creating a new trial if only few guilds can do it ? Going to be honest , I wouldn't even bother if I was a developer . I would just keep putting out more Crown Store items instead . Like ZOS does . Because it is the smarter way of doing it . Create a new trial > 1% of the playerbase will pay money for playing it . Put crown creates > be rich from casuals and other people who have nothing else to spend money on . Makes sense now , doesn't it ?

Jeremy · December 2016

Vaoh wrote: »

Everything here is based on research I did on WoW. If I got some facts wrong please let me know. Pretty sure it's all sadly accurate.

WoW is an extremely successful MMO. Though I have never played it, I'd hope someday in the future ESO could have nearly as many active players. Of course, the treatment of PvP balance and (more importantly) *game performance* has unfortunateIy crushed any hope of this ever happening. One thing that has come to my attention though recently was the sheer amount of group content in WoW - specifically Dungeons and Raids (aka Trials).

Upon doing some research, I found some shocking facts about WoW's PvE endgame compared to ESO.

This is with regards to just how many Dungeons and Raids you can run in both ESO and WoW.

ESO
Base Game + everything up until the first purchaseable DLC: 16 Dungeons (half have Tier I & II versions), 3 Raids
Imperial City: 2 Dungeons, 0 Raids
Orsinium: 0 Dungeons, 0 Raids
Thieves Guild: 0 Dungeons, 1 Raid
Dark Brotherhood: 0 Dungeons, 0 Raids
Shadows of the Hist: 2 Dungeons, 0 Raids
Total - 20 Dungeons (28 if counting duplicate dungeons via Tier I & II), 4 Raids

WoW
Classic: 20 Dungeons, 5 Raids (more than current ESO)
The Burning Crusade: 16 Dungeons, 8 Raids
Wrath of the Lich King: 16 Dungeons, 9 Raids
Cataclysm: 14 Dungeons, 6 Raids
Mists of Pandaria: 9 Dungeons, 5 Raids, 18 scenarios
Warlords of Draenor: 8 Dungeons, 3 Raids
Legion: 11 Dungeons, 3 Raids
Total - 94 Dungeons, 39 Raids

They also use different player counts for group content.....

In ESO:
Dungeons: 4 players
Raids(Trials): 12 players

In WoW:
Scenarios: 3 players
Dungeons: 5 players
Raids(Trials):
10 players only (two raids)
25 players only (seven raids)
10 or 25 players (nineteen raids)
10-30 player w/ scaling based on amount of players (four raids)
40 player (three raids)

I fully understand that WoW has been out much longer than ESO..... but why is ESO so lacking on endgame content!? This is not due to how much longer WoW has been out, but rather the pacing of ESO launching endgame content. We have 4 raids and the fifth is likely coming with our future Vvardenfell DLC, due late 2017 or even farther. In other words, we will have 5 raids (if not still 4) in ESO at the end of 2017.

On top of this, WoW has included all of their expansions (each of which are larger than all of ESO's DLC combined) into the base game for free except for the most recent "Legion" expansion. Sometime when the next expansion releases, they will undoubtedly make Legion part of base game WoW as well. ESO will never do something like this with their DLC.

..... I guess the point of this post is this - why is ESO so ridiculously slow at releasing endgame group content? This is why the player count is far smaller right now than it ever should've been. ZOS crippled game performance (most notably in PvP) and forced the endgame for most players into PvE since PvP turned into a mess.

We have only 4 Raids and they're all too unrewarding for most players to bother with. The Group Dungeons are all easy for endgame players except maybe some of the DLC dungeons. You also lose gold when you run Trials because there's no BoE loot and you need to chug Potions throughout your runs. How can ESO's raid content maintain a healthy endgame playerbase when there's so little of it and it serves as a gold sink?

Looking up the content WoW contains has definitely put ESO's endgame in perspective for me. The base game was perfect in terms of content, but since then there has been a miniscule amount of effort put into endgame. I can think of tons of good players I know who would've never quit if even a quarter of the amount of dungeons/raids were released to ESO in the same timespan that WoW releases them.

Please tell me I am missing somethimg huge in all of this. As far as I'm concerned, ESO would do amazingly well if it had 4x the current amount of dungeons and 10x the amount of trials including those with 2-3x the amount of players in them.

I love ESO, but it's no secret how poorly the endgame community is doing. Trials are as empty as the PvP population now due to lack of content and incentive. Personally, endgame PvE is all that's left for me. Please revive the endgame community and revise your policy of 2-4 dungeons/1 trial (max) per year. Add more and be serious about endgame to guarantee some longetivity for ESO. The "Elder Scrolls" name can only carry this game so much farther when content runs unbelievably dry and PvP is painfully neglected.

....that is all

WoW was the first MMO I can think of that implemented an effective group finding system - the queue system that we are now so familiar with. I believe that gave the game an edge early on. Combine that with the game's high performance (rarely do you have any lag on WOW and the game is usually very responsive) I think that's what put WoW over the top.

All that being said, I think ESO is the superior game.

Docmandu · December 2016

BlazingDynamo wrote: »

We need more updates like Craglorn. 3 trials a massive group zone with quests and delves out the ass. I know people are quick to say Craglorn was dead after it's release but so is every other damn zone lol

Let me refute this with 1 word: Orsinium

Iselin · December 2016

What vanilla ice cream lacks compared to chocolate ice cream: chocolate.

Therefore chocolate ice cream is superior.

ThePaleItalian · December 2016

Liofa wrote: »

I tell you why . Because ZOS don't bother with teaching mechanics . Yeah , they teach about the blocking , light attacking , interrupt and stuff during the tutorial . BUT this game has lots of more mechanics than that . Take the biggest example , animation cancelling . Who teaches that to a new player ? No one . Heavy Attack cancelling . I know and seen total of maybe 5 or 6 people who know it correctly including myself . I saw people who think they are the best but don't know that light attack gives them Ultimate regeneration buff . People creating tank builds with high amount of Stamina Recovery . Sadly , majority of players think 20k DPS is enough to clear veteran pledges in HM and they will do ok in trials as well . Who teaches this stuff to people ? Seriously . This may sound harsh but most people don't deserve to even try going to veteran trials .

It was mentioned before in this thread by someone else . Some CP capped people can't even complete nMoL . Except the high-end guilds , which are few , no one does PvE like it is supposed to be done . If people knew how this game is supposed to be played , there would be a lot more people who completed vMoL HM .

I have seen people joining DPS tests for guild invitation with Restoration Staves pulling 25k DPS and their excuse is ''I also heal and not die easily , isn't that better ?'' . NO ! It is not better . There is a huge information storage called internet and 99% of ESO playerbase don't know how to use it . There are people who still think animation cancelling is cheating . Really ? ZOS couldn't/didn't fix it and said it is intended . It is over . If you refuse to do animation cancelling , you don't deserve to play end-game PvE or PvP . This people I am talking about is not small in numbers by the way . You can see people crying in forums because they are getting killed in 3 seconds by people who know what they are doing or can't get above 25k DPS .

When people learn how to do research and be better by learning from people who actually know the game , this game can continue to grow . What is the point of creating a new trial if only few guilds can do it ? Going to be honest , I wouldn't even bother if I was a developer . I would just keep putting out more Crown Store items instead . Like ZOS does . Because it is the smarter way of doing it . Create a new trial > 1% of the playerbase will pay money for playing it . Put crown creates > be rich from casuals and other people who have nothing else to spend money on . Makes sense now , doesn't it ?

But what if animation cancellation wasn't in the game? Or on PC no addons?

Why don't you teach? Just curious. How would build your tank? Lemme guess? Shuffle, Blood Spawn and Tava's?

Do you think this game is meant to be played only for trial completions? I am pretty sure the majority don't care about them, I am pretty sure there are even better players out there than you that don't care.

Riejael · December 2016

Aeula wrote: »

The raiding community is a dying breed in MMO's. It requires too much commitment.

This is another misconception.

When I raided on WoW (and this happened in other games as well with raiding). I found myself playing the game less. You do your one or two nights (if the content is new) of raiding and then log off for a week waiting for a lockout. That means 3-6 hours a week of playing. Maybe more if there's off nights to run alts or gear newbies through a previous tier.

I'd wager 3 hours a week is paltry compared to even those who only play an hour or so at a time.

There's quite a bit that goes into getting into raiding admittedly, but once you're there, the commitment is small. Some guilds do multiple tiers and difficulties and that's when you see commitment issues arise. But this isn't like in 2000 on Everquest where everyone is sitting by their batphones waiting for a boss to spawn.

alexkdd99 · December 2016

Vaoh wrote: »

Khaos_Bane wrote: »

OP : "I entirely understand that WoW has been out a lot longer, but why does ESO have less content than WoW ?"

LMBO ! Classic.

Nice troll comment.

If you bothered to read on a bit more you may have learned something, rather than sound like you have the attention span of a squirrel.

Smh.

Except he has an excellent point. Did you bother to compare just how much longer wow has been out?

Or the difference in quality? There is a reason wow can run on any machine.

I'm sorry but it is pretty obvious as to why wow has that much more end game content.

Liofa · December 2016

ThePaleItalian wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

I tell you why . Because ZOS don't bother with teaching mechanics . Yeah , they teach about the blocking , light attacking , interrupt and stuff during the tutorial . BUT this game has lots of more mechanics than that . Take the biggest example , animation cancelling . Who teaches that to a new player ? No one . Heavy Attack cancelling . I know and seen total of maybe 5 or 6 people who know it correctly including myself . I saw people who think they are the best but don't know that light attack gives them Ultimate regeneration buff . People creating tank builds with high amount of Stamina Recovery . Sadly , majority of players think 20k DPS is enough to clear veteran pledges in HM and they will do ok in trials as well . Who teaches this stuff to people ? Seriously . This may sound harsh but most people don't deserve to even try going to veteran trials .

It was mentioned before in this thread by someone else . Some CP capped people can't even complete nMoL . Except the high-end guilds , which are few , no one does PvE like it is supposed to be done . If people knew how this game is supposed to be played , there would be a lot more people who completed vMoL HM .

I have seen people joining DPS tests for guild invitation with Restoration Staves pulling 25k DPS and their excuse is ''I also heal and not die easily , isn't that better ?'' . NO ! It is not better . There is a huge information storage called internet and 99% of ESO playerbase don't know how to use it . There are people who still think animation cancelling is cheating . Really ? ZOS couldn't/didn't fix it and said it is intended . It is over . If you refuse to do animation cancelling , you don't deserve to play end-game PvE or PvP . This people I am talking about is not small in numbers by the way . You can see people crying in forums because they are getting killed in 3 seconds by people who know what they are doing or can't get above 25k DPS .

When people learn how to do research and be better by learning from people who actually know the game , this game can continue to grow . What is the point of creating a new trial if only few guilds can do it ? Going to be honest , I wouldn't even bother if I was a developer . I would just keep putting out more Crown Store items instead . Like ZOS does . Because it is the smarter way of doing it . Create a new trial > 1% of the playerbase will pay money for playing it . Put crown creates > be rich from casuals and other people who have nothing else to spend money on . Makes sense now , doesn't it ?

But what if animation cancellation wasn't in the game? Or on PC no addons?

Why don't you teach? Just curious. How would build your tank? Lemme guess? Shuffle, Blood Spawn and Tava's?

Do you think this game is meant to be played only for trial completions? I am pretty sure the majority don't care about them, I am pretty sure there are even better players out there than you that don't care.

There is no such thing as ''what if'' . If there is something , you adapt or stay behind . Every experienced PvE player doesn't count on addons . If addon says , color change , you look at your feet before you change sides .

There are lots of videos on Youtube that teaches Animation cancelling . I have 2 of them . One for general , one for tanks . Both of them very detailed . My tank not uses Tava's . I am using a skill that is considered the most useless named Spell Symmetry . Before accusing , do some research at least . My channel is in my signature . I understand that you couldn't take a quick look at what I do before writing random stuff . It is definitely hard to do .

This thread has the name ''end-game , what eso lacks'' , so I spoke about end-game . If you say that majority of people not caring about trials , that only proves that I was right with what I said .

Karius_Imalthar · December 2016

But ESO does have something awesome going for it... it's not WoW. *mic drop*

ThePaleItalian · December 2016

Liofa wrote: »

ThePaleItalian wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

I tell you why . Because ZOS don't bother with teaching mechanics . Yeah , they teach about the blocking , light attacking , interrupt and stuff during the tutorial . BUT this game has lots of more mechanics than that . Take the biggest example , animation cancelling . Who teaches that to a new player ? No one . Heavy Attack cancelling . I know and seen total of maybe 5 or 6 people who know it correctly including myself . I saw people who think they are the best but don't know that light attack gives them Ultimate regeneration buff . People creating tank builds with high amount of Stamina Recovery . Sadly , majority of players think 20k DPS is enough to clear veteran pledges in HM and they will do ok in trials as well . Who teaches this stuff to people ? Seriously . This may sound harsh but most people don't deserve to even try going to veteran trials .

It was mentioned before in this thread by someone else . Some CP capped people can't even complete nMoL . Except the high-end guilds , which are few , no one does PvE like it is supposed to be done . If people knew how this game is supposed to be played , there would be a lot more people who completed vMoL HM .

I have seen people joining DPS tests for guild invitation with Restoration Staves pulling 25k DPS and their excuse is ''I also heal and not die easily , isn't that better ?'' . NO ! It is not better . There is a huge information storage called internet and 99% of ESO playerbase don't know how to use it . There are people who still think animation cancelling is cheating . Really ? ZOS couldn't/didn't fix it and said it is intended . It is over . If you refuse to do animation cancelling , you don't deserve to play end-game PvE or PvP . This people I am talking about is not small in numbers by the way . You can see people crying in forums because they are getting killed in 3 seconds by people who know what they are doing or can't get above 25k DPS .

When people learn how to do research and be better by learning from people who actually know the game , this game can continue to grow . What is the point of creating a new trial if only few guilds can do it ? Going to be honest , I wouldn't even bother if I was a developer . I would just keep putting out more Crown Store items instead . Like ZOS does . Because it is the smarter way of doing it . Create a new trial > 1% of the playerbase will pay money for playing it . Put crown creates > be rich from casuals and other people who have nothing else to spend money on . Makes sense now , doesn't it ?

But what if animation cancellation wasn't in the game? Or on PC no addons?

Why don't you teach? Just curious. How would build your tank? Lemme guess? Shuffle, Blood Spawn and Tava's?

Do you think this game is meant to be played only for trial completions? I am pretty sure the majority don't care about them, I am pretty sure there are even better players out there than you that don't care.

There is no such thing as ''what if'' . If there is something , you adapt or stay behind . Every experienced PvE player doesn't count on addons . If addon says , color change , you look at your feet before you change sides .

There are lots of videos on Youtube that teaches Animation cancelling . I have 2 of them . One for general , one for tanks . Both of them very detailed . My tank not uses Tava's . I am using a skill that is considered the most useless named Spell Symmetry . Before accusing , do some research at least . My channel is in my signature . I understand that you couldn't take a quick look at what I do before writing random stuff . It is definitely hard to do .

This thread has the name ''end-game , what eso lacks'' , so I spoke about end-game . If you say that majority of people not caring about trials , that only proves that I was right with what I said .

I watched your videos, very well done actually, I use Blood Spawn as well. But you are still missing the point. Which is ok, I understand taking a quick look at what I was saying to you is definitely hard to do...

You mentioned you see tanks with just high stamina, go on about animation cancelling and light attacks and what not... then like to throw in... most people do't deserve to go into veteran trials.. My question is, and still is, what is wrong with a stamina recovery tanks?

FYI there is an IF. It was a question I asked you, what IF.. animation cancelling was fixed? Also with addons as well. Being on consul we do not have the luxury of addons with buff timers, notifications and other helpful things. So once again, do you feel trials would still be done in the same way?

I don't mind end game, there is a player base for each aspect in this game. ZoS right now is trying to find a balance between all of them. But comparing this company to probably the largest MMO in history as well as the financial backing of Blizzard is a pretty unfair comparison.

RazorCaltrops · December 2016

ThePaleItalian wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

I tell you why . Because ZOS don't bother with teaching mechanics . Yeah , they teach about the blocking , light attacking , interrupt and stuff during the tutorial . BUT this game has lots of more mechanics than that . Take the biggest example , animation cancelling . Who teaches that to a new player ? No one . Heavy Attack cancelling . I know and seen total of maybe 5 or 6 people who know it correctly including myself . I saw people who think they are the best but don't know that light attack gives them Ultimate regeneration buff . People creating tank builds with high amount of Stamina Recovery . Sadly , majority of players think 20k DPS is enough to clear veteran pledges in HM and they will do ok in trials as well . Who teaches this stuff to people ? Seriously . This may sound harsh but most people don't deserve to even try going to veteran trials .

It was mentioned before in this thread by someone else . Some CP capped people can't even complete nMoL . Except the high-end guilds , which are few , no one does PvE like it is supposed to be done . If people knew how this game is supposed to be played , there would be a lot more people who completed vMoL HM .

I have seen people joining DPS tests for guild invitation with Restoration Staves pulling 25k DPS and their excuse is ''I also heal and not die easily , isn't that better ?'' . NO ! It is not better . There is a huge information storage called internet and 99% of ESO playerbase don't know how to use it . There are people who still think animation cancelling is cheating . Really ? ZOS couldn't/didn't fix it and said it is intended . It is over . If you refuse to do animation cancelling , you don't deserve to play end-game PvE or PvP . This people I am talking about is not small in numbers by the way . You can see people crying in forums because they are getting killed in 3 seconds by people who know what they are doing or can't get above 25k DPS .

When people learn how to do research and be better by learning from people who actually know the game , this game can continue to grow . What is the point of creating a new trial if only few guilds can do it ? Going to be honest , I wouldn't even bother if I was a developer . I would just keep putting out more Crown Store items instead . Like ZOS does . Because it is the smarter way of doing it . Create a new trial > 1% of the playerbase will pay money for playing it . Put crown creates > be rich from casuals and other people who have nothing else to spend money on . Makes sense now , doesn't it ?

But what if animation cancellation wasn't in the game? Or on PC no addons?

Why don't you teach? Just curious. How would build your tank? Lemme guess? Shuffle, Blood Spawn and Tava's?

Do you think this game is meant to be played only for trial completions? I am pretty sure the majority don't care about them, I am pretty sure there are even better players out there than you that don't care.

I'm a console player who also has a PC account and it took me 5 minutes to realize that buff trackers / notifiers are really good additions but people on console do everything without them so it's not an excuse. Same goes for weaving and animation cancelling. If people want to improve themselves, there are endless guides for everything.

Additionaly, not a part of conversation (and a bit off-topic) but don't judge people you know nothing about with comments like "why don't you teach". It was @Liofa who helped without hesitation to my group about the hardest content in the game.

scorpiodog · December 2016

Khaos_Bane wrote: »

OP : "I entirely understand that WoW has been out a lot longer, but why does ESO have less content than WoW ?"

LMBO ! Classic.

Lol exactly.
Also ESO is way more noob friendly than WOW. With WOW a noob has to slog through 80 levels of go fetch a pumpkin quests. True, ESO quests do get boring after a while, but not so wuickly as WOW where levelling was like pulling teeth after level 5.

WOW had lots of time to grow its player base, but is actually losing players and not getting any new ones because the environment is just toxic against noobs. ESO is doing a good job of recruiting new people and gives noobs more of a "safe space" lol.

Yes the semi pro ESO community is unhappy about a lot of things but as a generation the global MMO player base is aging and doesnt have as much time for serious gaming. People who were kids and started MMOs 10 to 15 years ago now have kids and mortgages to take them away from dedicated gaming.

Market -wise ESO is on the right track. They have to bring in new players, not cater to an aging and diminishing dedicated player base

Rohamad_Ali · December 2016

WoW made over a billion dollars in the MMO market and banked a lot of that money to directly compete with other games that launch . A billion dollars and a massive dev team on call all the time . I would love to see more end game content as well but ESO started with a huge price tag and suffered a lot of set backs at launch . Instead of being able to bank huge profits they've scrambled for ideas to stay afloat . We can't compare these two as one is based on unheard of success and the other from launch failures .

ThePaleItalian · December 2016

RazorCaltrops wrote: »

ThePaleItalian wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

I tell you why . Because ZOS don't bother with teaching mechanics . Yeah , they teach about the blocking , light attacking , interrupt and stuff during the tutorial . BUT this game has lots of more mechanics than that . Take the biggest example , animation cancelling . Who teaches that to a new player ? No one . Heavy Attack cancelling . I know and seen total of maybe 5 or 6 people who know it correctly including myself . I saw people who think they are the best but don't know that light attack gives them Ultimate regeneration buff . People creating tank builds with high amount of Stamina Recovery . Sadly , majority of players think 20k DPS is enough to clear veteran pledges in HM and they will do ok in trials as well . Who teaches this stuff to people ? Seriously . This may sound harsh but most people don't deserve to even try going to veteran trials .

It was mentioned before in this thread by someone else . Some CP capped people can't even complete nMoL . Except the high-end guilds , which are few , no one does PvE like it is supposed to be done . If people knew how this game is supposed to be played , there would be a lot more people who completed vMoL HM .

I have seen people joining DPS tests for guild invitation with Restoration Staves pulling 25k DPS and their excuse is ''I also heal and not die easily , isn't that better ?'' . NO ! It is not better . There is a huge information storage called internet and 99% of ESO playerbase don't know how to use it . There are people who still think animation cancelling is cheating . Really ? ZOS couldn't/didn't fix it and said it is intended . It is over . If you refuse to do animation cancelling , you don't deserve to play end-game PvE or PvP . This people I am talking about is not small in numbers by the way . You can see people crying in forums because they are getting killed in 3 seconds by people who know what they are doing or can't get above 25k DPS .

When people learn how to do research and be better by learning from people who actually know the game , this game can continue to grow . What is the point of creating a new trial if only few guilds can do it ? Going to be honest , I wouldn't even bother if I was a developer . I would just keep putting out more Crown Store items instead . Like ZOS does . Because it is the smarter way of doing it . Create a new trial > 1% of the playerbase will pay money for playing it . Put crown creates > be rich from casuals and other people who have nothing else to spend money on . Makes sense now , doesn't it ?

But what if animation cancellation wasn't in the game? Or on PC no addons?

Why don't you teach? Just curious. How would build your tank? Lemme guess? Shuffle, Blood Spawn and Tava's?

Do you think this game is meant to be played only for trial completions? I am pretty sure the majority don't care about them, I am pretty sure there are even better players out there than you that don't care.

I'm a console player who also has a PC account and it took me 5 minutes to realize that buff trackers / notifiers are really good additions but people on console do everything without them so it's not an excuse. Same goes for weaving and animation cancelling. If people want to improve themselves, there are endless guides for everything.

Additionaly, not a part of conversation (and a bit off-topic) but don't judge people you know nothing about with comments like "why don't you teach". It was @Liofa who helped without hesitation to my group about the hardest content in the game.

Ok let me say this really slow... Sorry, but everyone is still missing the point.. I am not saying that addons are an excuse for anything or anyone. I am asking if they believe they have an effect on raiding if they were not able to have them. Coming from PC to consul, it was a genuine question. I understanding weaving and animation cancelling as well.

Glad you got taught. But people need to get of their high horse because they can do what the 1% can do. Honestly, good for you. But stop generalizing that the majority of players don't know how to play to game.

raglau · December 2016

ThePaleItalian wrote: »

I don't mind end game, there is a player base for each aspect in this game. ZoS right now is trying to find a balance between all of them. But comparing this company to probably the largest MMO in history as well as the financial backing of Blizzard is a pretty unfair comparison.

Exactly the above, I don't understand the attempt at a comparison. The two products are MMOs sure, but the similarity ends there. They were released in different eras, to totally different markets and business environments, and are clearly targetted at different player types.

WoW is sub game and a sub business model attracts customers who expect to get more utility from the product than the sub they pay; i.e. dedicated gamers who will explore all elements of a game, including end-game. ESO is B2P/Freemium, which is a business model that targets light users who will not commit to a sub because they do not believe they will get the utility out of the product, i.e. people who do not see themselves as hardcore end-game types. 'Casuals' in other words. ZOS will be perfectly happy to dripfeed bites of content to their market and have their players disappear off for 6 months at a time and then pay their $20 or whatever for each new DLC, play that for a bit, then go off and do something else until the next bit is released.

There are people like me who have a sub and are the more committed end of the casual spectrum, but I bet that on a pie chart I'm in a segment that's less than 20% in size, and the development will proceed accordingly.

Hammy01 · December 2016

I have yet to read through all the comments yet but i am guessing one of the reasons Zos has issues putting out huge amounts of content is because they have to put out that content for consoles as well and that takes a little longer!

Now that i am thinking about it... If Blizzard ever released classic WoW for the consoles i would jump ship in a heartbeat

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Wifeaggro13 · December 2016

Sallington wrote: »

ESO's playerbase is far too casual for any type of classic MMO progression raiding.

This is an MMO of faceroll PvE content and cosmetics.

The reason why that player base is not here is because of Zos. Not because the player base does not exist. It's the bread and butter of any mmo.

scorpiodog · December 2016

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

ESO's playerbase is far too casual for any type of classic MMO progression raiding.

This is an MMO of faceroll PvE content and cosmetics.

The reason why that player base is not here is because of Zos. Not because the player base does not exist. It's the bread and butter of any mmo.

So explain why WOWs player base is only a fraction of what it was 10 years ago?

Yolokin_Swagonborn · December 2016

Vaoh wrote: »

Coincidentally, ESO has barely recieved any endgame content in the past year (beginning with near nothing as well) and the endgame community is practically dead now. PvP was neglected and now that community is almost dead as well.

I hope ZOS realizes how much they have destroyed their own game by lack of confidence in their own content, lack of vision and lack of general aptitude, and of course a whole lot of contempt for the PvP community.

Now that they realize they can make just as much (or even more) money with clown crates and by selling $30 horse/llama hybrids with horns with a fraction of the effort, why would they even bother to attempt high quality content again?

raglau · December 2016

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

ESO's playerbase is far too casual for any type of classic MMO progression raiding.

This is an MMO of faceroll PvE content and cosmetics.

The reason why that player base is not here is because of Zos. Not because the player base does not exist. It's the bread and butter of any mmo.

I believe that category of player is on the decline, hence WoW subs being a mere trifle of what they once were. Not just that, but those players of that ilk who do still exist, are tied to another game through thousands of hours of play time invested, many £££ of fees paid, friends retained in game etc. So ZOS have likely said, "why battle to steal these players, while the market is shrinking and there are all these threats to business, when we can scoop up a load of casuals off the back of the TES brand?". Those of us who bothered to subscribe here are more committed, so we get frustrated with what seems like a narrow business vision, but we're a minority, most people who play ESO are not on the forums, they just dip in and out of the game.

I think we just have to accept that this is the strategy ZOS have adopted in order to compete in a saturated and hostile market, and that's that. It's not perfect and frustrates me at times, but the game is surviving.

Pirsius · December 2016

1) Just based on size of the games, I'd assumed Blizzard employs much much more to work on WoW than ZOS does on ESO. More labor = more output.

2) The larger playerbase that WoW has also means more $$$ going to Blizzard, which means being able to spend more on development and employ more people.

3) Technology. ESO is on 3 platforms. That means work must be divided between PC, PS4 and XB1. Blizzard only has to focus on one platform. Also, ESO has better graphics in their game which takes time.

Overall, WoW came out at the perfect time and solidified itself in the MMO community without much competition their success has snowballed since. ESO has a ton of competition since it is not only a PC MMO but also a console game. Personally, if ZOS focused more on sheer amount of content, I believe that it will fall behind in much of what does make the game great.

dday3six · December 2016

Pirsius wrote: »

1) Just based on size of the games, I'd assumed Blizzard employs much much more to work on WoW than ZOS does on ESO. More labor = more output.

2) The larger playerbase that WoW has also means more $$$ going to Blizzard, which means being able to spend more on development and employ more people.

3) Technology. ESO is on 3 platforms. That means work must be divided between PC, PS4 and XB1. Blizzard only has to focus on one platform. Also, ESO has better graphics in their game which takes time.

Overall, WoW came out at the perfect time and solidified itself in the MMO community without much competition their success has snowballed since. ESO has a ton of competition since it is not only a PC MMO but also a console game. Personally, if ZOS focused more on sheer amount of content, I believe that it will fall behind in much of what does make the game great.

I believe WOW still runs on MAC/OS which is different than PC, and I know ESO does. Then in this gen both PS4 and XB1 run on basically the barebone guts of a PC, so develop is much easier this time around. It was the cell processor of the PS3 that was notoriously trouble to dev for.

Then even when developers only focus on PC. The specs of a potato laptap vs super optimized regularly updated gaming rig is still an issue.

sneakymitchell · December 2016

Look at the graphics compared to WoW. But I seen videos that WoW updated thier graphics. And also combat between the two are different making it harder for the gameplay and combat design team since I heard that they have less people on the team. That's why we don't get updates every month or so cause the gameplay, graphics, and the game bugs out. If we keep supporting ZOS like they said they will continue to work on dlc and new updates for the game.

Wifeaggro13 · December 2016

i

Silver_Strider · December 2016

I would KILL for raids similar to FF14'S raids.
Some trash before an actual difficult boss with tons of mechanics that are more than just BURN IT QUICKLY.

acw37162 · December 2016

Wow also has the ability to transmute your gear to whatever style you would prefer. On decade old technology I might add.

dday3six · December 2016

Silver_Strider wrote: »

I would KILL for raids similar to FF14'S raids.
Some trash before an actual difficult boss with tons of mechanics that are more than just BURN IT QUICKLY.

Problem is from the get-go ESO was not set up to support that.

Wifeaggro13 · December 2016

Pibbles wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

ESO's playerbase is far too casual for any type of classic MMO progression raiding.

This is an MMO of faceroll PvE content and cosmetics.

The reason why that player base is not here is because of Zos. Not because the player base does not exist. It's the bread and butter of any mmo.

I believe that category of player is on the decline, hence WoW subs being a mere trifle of what they once were. Not just that, but those players of that ilk who do still exist, are tied to another game through thousands of hours of play time invested, many £££ of fees paid, friends retained in game etc. So ZOS have likely said, "why battle to steal these players, while the market is shrinking and there are all these threats to business, when we can scoop up a load of casuals off the back of the TES brand?". Those of us who bothered to subscribe here are more committed, so we get frustrated with what seems like a narrow business vision, but we're a minority, most people who play ESO are not on the forums, they just dip in and out of the game.

I think we just have to accept that this is the strategy ZOS have adopted in order to compete in a saturated and hostile market, and that's that. It's not perfect and frustrates me at times, but the game is surviving.

I am not sure about that you can make a great game that has End game content and appeals to casuals Rift did it EQ2 did alot of the second Gen MMO's pulled it off, and honestly the raiding communities are very fluid . even the ultra hard core communities traverse many games . I think what the problem is the to appeal to a wider audience range and keep cost down the quality of game has been diluted in the race to make $$$$ as fast as you can.

Just before ESO went B2P they had about 600 to 700 k subs they sold 1.2 million copies little over 50% retention not great but not bad either. The community was table after the large burn off, the bleed was due to the end game being thin. those that did not like ESO spit it out immediately so right after launch the 90 days was where most of that bleed was but the second exodus was primarily ESO and the lack of content at the 9 month to 1 year mark they kept trying to artifcially extend the game along the way with more VR ranks back peddling on the Murkmire, Imperial city,TG and DB promises. ESO was doing just fine as a sub up until that point, it was the console sales that was the factor in it going B2P .

Personally i think ZOS is working on another project, ESO is in the rear view mirror and they will continue to put out small single player centric DLC's to boos their quarterly revenue. It may be your style of game Pibbles but it is not everyones cup of tea .

I would like to point out though WOW is hardly a mere trifle. WOWs projection for subs when that game launched was about 400k .believe me they were happy as pigs in poop that they went low hardware requirment and smashed EQ2 and their projections .which was half a million subscribers. at its peak EQ2 had under a million at peak. No one ever predicted MMO's would be this popular up until that point they were estatic with a few hundred thousand.Jesus EQ 1 was only projected to have 40 k and they hit 480k their second year.. WOW still has millions of subs ,at its peak it was 12 million. the reason Wows subs died in a massive chunk had very little to do with a game style. it had to do with the dilution of the market with newer MMO's coming out in rapid succession from 2008 to 2012 and asian contnients making their own AAA titles , wow being driven out of certain markets by goverment favoritism to developers of asian markets.

From what SWTOR which is rumored to have cost 50 mil more then ESO all they need was 500k subs to stay very profitable, its not victimized developers not making enough money to keep the lights on its corporate greed trying to grind out as much money as possible in the shortest amount of time.

raglau · December 2016

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

I am not sure about that you can make a great game that has End game content and appeals to casuals Rift did it EQ2 did alot of the second Gen MMO's pulled it off, and honestly the raiding communities are very fluid . even the ultra hard core communities traverse many games . I think what the problem is the to appeal to a wider audience range and keep cost down the quality of game has been diluted in the race to make $$$$ as fast as you can.

Just before ESO went B2P they had about 600 to 700 k subs . The community was table after the large burn off, the bleed was due to the end game being thin. those that did not like ESO spit it out immediately so right after launch the 90 days was where most of that bleed was but the second exodus was primarily ESO and the lack of content at the 9 month to 1 year mark they kept trying to artifcially extend the game along the way with more VR ranks back peddling on the TG and DB promises. ESO was doing just fine as a sub up until that point, it was the console sales that was the factor in it going B2P .

Personally i think ZOS is working on another project, ESO is in the rear view mirror and they will continue to put out small single player centric DLC's to boos their quarterly revenue. It may be your style of game Pibbles but it is not everyones cup of tea .
.

i must point out that whilst I accept the model ZOS have adopted - small DLC type add-ons - and even enjoyed Orsinium a lot, I also would prefer more meaty content. Even as a casual player, I'm at the more serious end of the spectrum and sub to ESO+ in 6 monthly chunks, however, I am wondering if I'll do that again as I burn through the content so quickly. I got ESO for my son and the way I did it with him was a buy load of Crowns in a Crown sale then use them to buy the DLC in sales, I think that's possibly better than a sub when we exhaust content so fast because we can just drop the game and come back when new stuff is released.

It's far from perfect but I tolerate the ZOS release model simply because it's an Elder Scrolls game and I've played them all, probably if the game were some other MMO where I did not have something of a personal tie, I'd have ditched it by now because it's not deep enough. I'm really just making observations on how I think ZOS are strategising.