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Endgame - What ESO lacks. (compared with WoW)
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Vaoh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Sallington wrote: »ESO's playerbase is far too casual for any type of classic MMO progression raiding.
This is an MMO of faceroll PvE content and cosmetics.
That hurts to hear.
I don't think you are wrong
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Tandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ESO lacks nothing, compared to WoW.
It's not WoW. Live with it, or play WoW.
Ah, the good ol' "if you got anything bad to say you can *** right off." Yes, that has always helped improve..
Voicing concerns or wishes is valid and part of being a community. If you can't acknowledge this then what are you doing here? You contribute nothing.
That's not my approach at all. My point is that this is not WoW, therefore it does not have to have the things that WoW has. If that game has the right content for you, then it's available for you to play.
I have no problem at all with someone arguing for additional content of a particular nature, if the argument is that it would benefit the game. I do have a problem with someone arguing that this game should have something because another game has it. That is my point.5 -
JD2013✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@Sallington is also quite right.
I would say that the biggest portion of the player base of ESO play casually and without commitment, and this is why ESO is turning out far more like an online RPG as opposed to a traditional MMO. A lot of the players are ES fans who have never played any mmo's before and come here for the Elder Scrolls brand. They've never done raiding etc and so because they've never done it they don't miss it or see that it's not in the game.
This isn't a "darn casuals" rant but you can bet that ZOS have oodles of data showing how people play this game, and this is why it's such a PVE fest with little concentration on PVP or endgame raiding. Because that's not how people play this particular game.
That said though how do ZOS know they wouldn't play it if they've never introduced a long and massive raid type thing? Maybe they ought to try introducing one and seeing how that goes?
I also think they got burned with Craglorn and took that as people here not liking playing in groups much. People around here do tend to solo most of the content because they can.Sweetrolls for all!
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Crafting bag OP! ZOS nerf pls!5 -
Khaos_Bane✭✭✭✭✭
✭Sallington wrote: »ESO's playerbase is far too casual for any type of classic MMO progression raiding.
This is an MMO of faceroll PvE content and cosmetics.
This is so true unfortunately. I really wish they could find a balance in PvE because it's far to easy overall.Edited by Khaos_Bane on December 30, 2016 4:37PM1 -
Tandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »ESO lacks nothing, compared to WoW.
It's not WoW. Live with it, or play WoW.
Except..... endgame content.
This has nothing to do with "being WoW". WoW simply has a ton of endgame content and a massive, successful endgame community because of it.
Coincidentally, ESO has barely recieved any endgame content in the past year (beginning with near nothing as well) and the endgame community is practically dead now. PvP was neglected and now that community is almost dead as well.
You can find only a handful of guilds on a server, consisting of many of the same players, who can complete vMoL. It's not looking good at all. Content drought is a big reason for it.
Youre the one that started this whole conversation about how WoW does it better. Had you left WoW out of your OP you wouldnt be seeing these sorts of comments. WoW is 12 years old with multiple large expansions behind it. Of course it has a better selection of end-game content. To compare a 3 year old game, still maneuvering itself into what it wants to be and offer, to a game that is now a senior citizen in the industry is just asking for an argument.
Maybe a game that is 3 years old should not be confused as to what it wants to offer? How long do you think players stick around on a game like this? Had "Elder Scrolls" not been in the title it would've failed already.
Take only WoW's first expansion and you'll find that it completely tears ESO apart in terms of endgame content. That is actually a comparison in favor of ESO timewise. There is still no contest in the slightest.
Even base game WoW had more dungeons/raids than ESO currently has. When you look at the size of the endgame community in ESO compared to WoW it speaks for itself. Facts are facts. ESO is doing very poorly in endgame and WoW is doing fantastic. Releasing significantly more content than ESO does in the same timeframe is why our endgame community is almost gone now.
You're confusing a game that purposely sets out to be a traditional MMORPG with one that does not, as well as expecting a game that has had a decent enough but not substantial revenue stream for under 3 years with one that has by any standards had an absolutely massive revenue stream for 12 years.
I suspect that we shall see some interesting new content coming in 2017 and the beauty of One Tamriel is that it will constitute both low-level and endgame content. Whether that content will include raids remains to be seen, but not every game needs to have raids and some that do have stopped adding them because so few players want to participate in raiding.1 -
jeremiah911✭✭✭The raiding community is a dying breed in MMO's. It requires too much commitment.
This guy / gal gets it. Statistically speaking, participation in raiding has fallen drastically in the last 3-5 years. The most popular or most played content in MMOs today revolves around 3-4 players with the content taking 30-40 minutes to complete. The majority of players are interested in small scale content with a small time commitment.
I would like to see more content (large/small; pve/pvp), which I believe we will see this year, but overall IMO ZOS is doing the right thing by creating content that appeals to the majority of the player base; small scale solo/group content.
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dday3six✭✭✭✭✭
✭ESO is not set up for raiding. It's barely set up for group content in some ways. It's not just a matter of having raids and group dungeons for players to do. It's also about cultivating a playerbase for it. Not having things like damage numbers, enemy health bars with percentages, and well as effect trackers is a huge turnoff to a serious raider. Honestly I complained about it since day one of console beta, because I came from playing FFXIV and was looking for an at least marginally similar experience from ESO.
It's not a popular opinion, but one of the biggest problems ESO has as an MMO (and I'm talking as a genre, not just a server type) is that it's a part of a storied single player franchise. A single player mindset is often counter intuitive to cooperative play. Frankly many of the freedoms that would be standard in a single players title, particularly a TES one are often a detrimental aspect in regardless to group play or even the development of it.2 -
Alagras✭✭✭Maybe devs could keep on doing two-parts dungeons. It was original, and probably took less work in scenery design.
They could give every dungeon and trial a part 2, that could be faster and cheaper than making whole new ones. Not saying they should rush a poor job either.
Also, so far, I notice that DLC dungeons and trials tend to be harder than previous ones, and have maybe more original boss mechanics. It's not perfect, and we clearly need more, but job done isn't that bad either.Edited by Alagras on December 30, 2016 4:45PM1 -
BlazingDynamo✭✭✭✭✭I agree ESO does lack end game content. There's hardly anything to do after making 2 or 3 characters. I loved this game but stopped after all my buddies got bored. 1 new trial isn't enough to keep anyone playing no matter how difficult it is.
We need more updates like Craglorn. 3 trials a massive group zone with quests and delves out the ass. I know people are quick to say Craglorn was dead after it's release but so is every other damn zone lol1 -
Lord_Eomer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ESO progress towards End Game contents is very slower. Take CP Cap example, I have 800 CP and with current increasing rate of CP Cap it will never reach to 800 CP.
I like leveling in ESO but who bothers if you can not benefit from earned levels!0 -
Vaoh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@Sallington is also quite right.
I would say that the biggest portion of the player base of ESO play casually and without commitment, and this is why ESO is turning out far more like an online RPG as opposed to a traditional MMO. A lot of the players are ES fans who have never played any mmo's before and come here for the Elder Scrolls brand. They've never done raiding etc and so because they've never done it they don't miss it or see that it's not in the game.
This isn't a "darn casuals" rant but you can bet that ZOS have oodles of data showing how people play this game, and this is why it's such a PVE fest with little concentration on PVP or endgame raiding. Because that's not how people play this particular game.
That said though how do ZOS know they wouldn't play it if they've never introduced a long and massive raid type thing? Maybe they ought to try introducing one and seeing how that goes?
I also think they got burned with Craglorn and took that as people here not liking playing in groups much. People around here do tend to solo most of the content because they can.
This is the part that makes no sense with ZOS.
When ESO came out, PvP was the big seller. They advertised it like crazy and it was incredible. You can't even tell it's the same game if you look at it nowadays, and not in a good way.
Population caps per alliance on campaigns have been reduced by 4x their original numbers (from around 800 to 150-200) and we've gone from 3 full campaigns with lots of action on every campaign to just 1 full campaign (sometimes) with a couple bars spread across the other campaigns. It's totally ruined because of 2yrs of total neglect.
Trials were fantastic. Then ZOS refused to update them for an extraordinarily long time or to add any more. Guilds disbanded and left, but worse, console players recieved these unscaled trials and never really cared for them.
Now there are mostly casual players left. Not due to the increased or greater interest in them though. Rather, it came from the long time neglect and failure to add to other aspects of the game (PvP/endgame PvE).0 -
Sigtric✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭There are a few things at play here and I think most have been mentioned but I want to reiterate.
1. The MMO market/climate was much different back during wows first 3 to 4 years than it is now. The player base then and the player base now (in mmos in general) are two largely different types of groups. Progression raiding, as much as I'd like to see it in ESO, is pretty much non-viable in terms of money making and popularity in anything that's come out since f2p and b2p have become the norm.
2. The fact that wow has been around for 12 does in fact matter. For a couple reasons. Simple collection building (more time to make more content) and the giant player base is a mountain of wealth to develop with, that allows for bigger content drops over a longer period of time.
3. Let's face it. Wow is the America Online of MMOs. The only thing it does exceedingly well is keep the lowest common denominator right where they want it, in their game. It's built upon the idea to appease to and be good for the masses, and they do well to make the masses think they need to stay. At least until a year or so after the last content drop when they start crying about content droughts like <insert any other MMO here>.
4. Wow is an anomaly. It's the only MMO to do what it's done and many have tried to replicate it and they all have failed. Most likely any upcoming titles will fail to take that spot, not for lack of trying but because MMO games as they were before - The kind that I've been playing for almost 20 years now, are still and most likely will always be a niche genre.
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Scrub: Chews-on-Beavers - 50 EP DK Tank | Vera the Wild - 50 EP magicka Warden | Sigtric the Axe - 50 EP Dragonknight Crafter | Sigtric the Blade - 50 EP Lost Nightblade | Sigtric the Savage - 50 EP magicka Templar | Vibeka Shadowblade - 50 Ep Stealthy Ganky Nightblade |
Show Me Your Dunmer
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AuldWolf✭✭✭✭✭Ah. So you want ESO to be Wildstar? With all of the raiding and competitive content? Or how about Warhammer Online? Those games were dead on arrival. Trying to be as competitive/grind-ridden/raidy as WoW is a suicide pact. It's what an MMO does if it has no faith in its own success left. It's a last, ditch, desperate attempt that can never, ever work. And only <1~ per cent of the community would ever want this.
The vast majority of the community play ESO because it's Elder Scrolls. We didn't play it because we wanted WoW with Elder Scrolls lore. You can be as noisy as you want, but the majority of the community want a game that can be played solo or in very small groups of 2-3. If that wasn't true, then Wildstar, Warhammer Online, and so many others like it wouldn't have been dead on arrival.
What you want would kill ESO. And ZOS should be smart enough to know that. You need only look at Wildstar to see. What happened with Wildstar? A tiny portion of WoW's community tried it before running back to WoW. WoW addicts aren't going to stop playing WoW, not in numbers big enough to matter. And only WoW addicts actually like the sort of thing you're talking about.10 -
jarydf✭✭✭✭Let's take it that ZOS is a small team that are trying to make the best game they can. They want to retain their audience and get new audience. They are also trying to cater to a few diffent markets. Their strategy seems to be to have a few different play styles in the game and hope the those things together are better than being fantastic at just one thing. They spend a certain amount of time adding new features and sometime fixing things that are not working well. So somebody decided that developing player houses was the best use of their time currently. Someone also decided Crown crates would net enough money to put up with the flak they would recieve here on the forums. That is because even though people on these forums are vocal, they may or may not reflect the opinions of the wider player base. Generally when I am playing the game I have a good time and enjoy myself. I do the parts I like and ignore the bits I don't. I thinkxthat is how most people play. That is probably the best place to decide how well the game is going. The cycles of how they deploy their time can be frustrating if they are not doing bits you think are the most important. Also these forums and the angst expressed on them probably don't help with our enjoyment of the game. Anyone, myself included, who is reading these forums, it is probably a sign we are "holding on too tight" to this game and need to spend time enjoying the game for what it is rather than worrying about what it might be. The "Enlightenment" concept is an interesting one. It boosts you for a certain amount of play time. In a roundabout way it also sort of suggests a level of play time ZOS is catering for. Cheers.3
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Vaoh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Ah. So you want ESO to be Wildstar? With all of the raiding and competitive content? Or how about Warhammer Online? Those games were dead on arrival. Trying to be as competitive/grind-ridden/raidy as WoW is a suicide pact. It's what an MMO does if it has no faith in its own success left. It's a last, ditch, desperate attempt that can never, ever work. And only <1~ per cent of the community would ever want this.
The vast majority of the community play ESO because it's Elder Scrolls. We didn't play it because we wanted WoW with Elder Scrolls lore. You can be as noisy as you want, but the majority of the community want a game that can be played solo or in very small groups of 2-3. If that wasn't true, then Wildstar, Warhammer Online, and so many others like it wouldn't have been dead on arrival.
What you want would kill ESO. And ZOS should be smart enough to know that. You need only look at Wildstar to see. What happened with Wildstar? A tiny portion of WoW's community tried it before running back to WoW. WoW addicts aren't going to stop playing WoW, not in numbers big enough to matter. And only WoW addicts actually like the sort of thing you're talking about.
You sound like you've been traumatized by Wildstar
I've asked for ESO to add more than 2 dungeons/1 trial per year. Nothing more. Never did I advocate for anything other than that.
You would also be very wrong. Many players (that dying endgame community, duh) would LOVE more trials/dungeons in a timely manner. Working on actual content instead of Crown Store-focused content like mounts or player housing. It'd actually keep people playing.0 -
Sigtric✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Ah. So you want ESO to be Wildstar? With all of the raiding and competitive content? Or how about Warhammer Online? Those games were dead on arrival. Trying to be as competitive/grind-ridden/raidy as WoW is a suicide pact. It's what an MMO does if it has no faith in its own success left. It's a last, ditch, desperate attempt that can never, ever work. And only <1~ per cent of the community would ever want this.
The vast majority of the community play ESO because it's Elder Scrolls. We didn't play it because we wanted WoW with Elder Scrolls lore. You can be as noisy as you want, but the majority of the community want a game that can be played solo or in very small groups of 2-3. If that wasn't true, then Wildstar, Warhammer Online, and so many others like it wouldn't have been dead on arrival.
What you want would kill ESO. And ZOS should be smart enough to know that. You need only look at Wildstar to see. What happened with Wildstar? A tiny portion of WoW's community tried it before running back to WoW. WoW addicts aren't going to stop playing WoW, not in numbers big enough to matter. And only WoW addicts actually like the sort of thing you're talking about.
You sound like you've been traumatized by Wildstar
I've asked for ESO to add more than 2 dungeons/1 trial per year. Nothing more. Never did I advocate for anything other than that.
You would also be very wrong. Many players (that dying endgame community, duh) would LOVE more trials/dungeons in a timely manner. Working on actual content instead of Crown Store-focused content like mounts or player housing. It'd actually keep people playing.
From what I understand, that's the general feeling people felt after trying Wildstar. I didn't try it as I couldn't stand looking at it. lolEdited by Sigtric on December 30, 2016 4:57PM
Stormproof: Vibeke - 50 EP mDragonknight | Savi Dreloth - 50 EP Magsorc | Sadi Dreloth - 50 EP Magblade | Sigtric Stormaxe - 50 EP Stamsorc | Valora Dreloth - 50 EP Magplar | Sigtric the Unbearable 50 EP Stam Warden
Scrub: Chews-on-Beavers - 50 EP DK Tank | Vera the Wild - 50 EP magicka Warden | Sigtric the Axe - 50 EP Dragonknight Crafter | Sigtric the Blade - 50 EP Lost Nightblade | Sigtric the Savage - 50 EP magicka Templar | Vibeka Shadowblade - 50 Ep Stealthy Ganky Nightblade |
Show Me Your Dunmer
[/center]3 -
Vaoh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Let's take it that ZOS is a small team that are trying to make the best game they can. They want to retain their audience and get new audience. They are also trying to cater to a few diffent markets. Their strategy seems to be to have a few different play styles in the game and hope the those things together are better than being fantastic at just one thing. They spend a certain amount of time adding new features and sometime fixing things that are not working well. So somebody decided that developing player houses was the best use of their time currently. Someone also decided Crown crates would net enough money to put up with the flak they would recieve here on the forums. That is because even though people on these forums are vocal, they may or may not reflect the opinions of the wider player base. Generally when I am playing the game I have a good time and enjoy myself. I do the parts I like and ignore the bits I don't. I thinkxthat is how most people play. That is probably the best place to decide how well the game is going. The cycles of how they deploy their time can be frustrating if they are not doing bits you think are the most important. Also these forums and the angst expressed on them probably don't help with our enjoyment of the game. Anyone, myself included, who is reading these forums, it is probably a sign we are "holding on too tight" to this game and need to spend time enjoying the game for what it is rather than worrying about what it might be. The "Enlightenment" concept is an interesting one. It boosts you for a certain amount of play time. In a roundabout way it also sort of suggests a level of play time ZOS is catering for. Cheers.
That was painful to read -_-
The whole point of the Forums is to express concerns. You'll find more complaints/concerns here than anywhere else.
Where else would they go?
And btw their strategy is to milk as much $$$ via the Crown Store as possible right now while withholding as much completed/near-completed content as possible for as long as time allows. We've already datamined most if not all of what will come in 2017 and 2018. Js.
Fyi - there's 1 Trial *tops* so far.Edited by Vaoh on December 30, 2016 5:02PM0 -
Khaos_Bane✭✭✭✭✭
✭BlazingDynamo wrote: »I agree ESO does lack end game content. There's hardly anything to do after making 2 or 3 characters. I loved this game but stopped after all my buddies got bored. 1 new trial isn't enough to keep anyone playing no matter how difficult it is.
We need more updates like Craglorn. 3 trials a massive group zone with quests and delves out the ass. I know people are quick to say Craglorn was dead after it's release but so is every other damn zone lol
Craglorn is alive and well now with T1. It has a fantastic main questline and still has plenty of group content as well. This is how zones should continue to be developed.
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Orthodoxa✭✭✭Ah. So you want ESO to be Wildstar? With all of the raiding and competitive content? Or how about Warhammer Online? Those games were dead on arrival. Trying to be as competitive/grind-ridden/raidy as WoW is a suicide pact. It's what an MMO does if it has no faith in its own success left. It's a last, ditch, desperate attempt that can never, ever work. And only <1~ per cent of the community would ever want this.
The vast majority of the community play ESO because it's Elder Scrolls. We didn't play it because we wanted WoW with Elder Scrolls lore. You can be as noisy as you want, but the majority of the community want a game that can be played solo or in very small groups of 2-3. If that wasn't true, then Wildstar, Warhammer Online, and so many others like it wouldn't have been dead on arrival.
What you want would kill ESO. And ZOS should be smart enough to know that. You need only look at Wildstar to see. What happened with Wildstar? A tiny portion of WoW's community tried it before running back to WoW. WoW addicts aren't going to stop playing WoW, not in numbers big enough to matter. And only WoW addicts actually like the sort of thing you're talking about.
QUOTED FOR TRUTH!
If raid elitists want to play WoW, they should just go play WoW.
I used to enjoy playing DCUO back in the day, and then the devs there made the horrible decision to focus on raids for endgame progression. It has died down horribly as a result, and is no longer fun for me.
I love ESO just like they have been doing things, with lots of solo and small group content. Thieve's Guild, Dark Brotherhood, Orsinium, they have all been awesome and incredibly fun. The absolute worst thing the devs could do to the game would be to focus on a very tiny fringe group of die-hard raiders.
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Akrasjel✭✭✭✭How many players raid beacause they actualy like it and how many beacause thats the thing to do for endgame and there is nothing better
Would be nice if ZOS provided some stats for diffrent activities in the game and how they look[PC][EU][Daggerfall Covenant]
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Houses: Strident Springs Demesne,2 -
Messy1✭✭✭✭✭
✭Well, the gauntlet has been cast. In the new year I expect ESO to tackle the end game issue with some alacrity.
Hardcore MMO players are not (I think) the majority of players who play ESO. Also hardcore MMO players can be fickle about changes to the game (just look at all the ragequit threads when something gets nerfed or their exploit gets fixed).
ESO will no doubt release a major zone with more trials and dungeons. ESO is starting to form a pattern in their release of content. I actually kinda of like the way that they add new systems to the game, revise things, but yeah new content needs to be consistent.
Elder Scrolls is such a rich world. ZOS needs to do it justice!2 -
technohic✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I think grass is always greener on the other side. I actually am pretty happy with the pace that they are releasing content multi-platform here compared to a lot of games that just do PC. It may not be the content you want or I want but someone wants it.3 -
Vaoh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ESO will no doubt release a major zone with more trials and dungeons. ESO is starting to form a pattern in their release of content. I actually kinda of like the way that they add new systems to the game, revise things, but yeah new content needs to be consistent.
Not really. The last time this happened was with Craglorn. That was a very long time ago. We won't get anything like that (or there wouldn't even be an issue tbh).
We will get Major Zones, yes, all of which are listed in my Future Content thread.
There are many different "communities" in an MMO. You need to release content that interests everyone, best done through scaling. ZOS has chosen to solely focus on casual players that they say will come and play for a few weeks and then leave and return for the next DLC.
The PvP community (once the largest population)? The endgame PvE community (not as big, but very promising)? They have both been heavily neglected and cut down to almost nothing compared to their former populations. ZOS is just not interested in invested the resources into growing the game at this point, but rather maintaining what is left.
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Vaoh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I think grass is always greener on the other side. I actually am pretty happy with the pace that they are releasing content multi-platform here compared to a lot of games that just do PC. It may not be the content you want or I want but someone wants it.
I hope so!
It sure isn't for the significant majority of PvP and endgame PvEers that already left 0 -
Enslaved✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭@Vaoh ,
What you wrote is true, but on the other hand, vast majority of ESO players is far from capable of doing even normal dungeons. I would like to see much more dungeons and trials in ESO, but I think Zos is more oriented to players who don't even bother seeing on youtube what are boss mechanics, not to mention even trying to make improvements to their builds, skill rotations etc.
The more I do random dungeons, the less I have fate in ESO community's will to learn and improve. Next step I expect from Zos is to nerf damage in vet dungeons to the point that average players could do them from 1st attempt.Edited by Enslaved on December 30, 2016 5:47PM0 -
Vaoh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@Vaoh ,
What you wrote is true, but on the other hand, vast majority of ESO players is far from capable of doing even normal dungeons. I would like to see much more dungeons and trials in ESO, but I think Zos is more oriented to players who don't even bother seeing on youtube what are boss mechanics, not to mention even trying to make improvements to their builds, skill rotations etc.
The more I do random dungeons, the less I have fate in ESO community's will to learn and improve. Next step I expect from Zos is to nerf damage in vet dungeons to the point that average players could do them from 1st attempt.
I would not be surprised. Maybe you're right, though I do have a hard time believing that many players can barely complete Normal dungeons.
I'm starting to get the same feeling with this thread as I do with any thread now. What's the point? - ZOS won't care.
Maybe it is pointless to try to revive the endgame PvE community as well as the PvP community. They're already gone and the damage is done. The casual-type players are what's left in the largescale and ZOS caters to them. *sigh*Edited by Vaoh on December 30, 2016 5:53PM1
