Increase the minimum level to queue for the DLC dungeons

code65536 · October 2016

@ZOS_Finn

You need to be level 38 to queue for the zone-5 dungeons. And if I recall correctly, you need to be level 45 to queue for Vaults of Madness.

So why are level 10 players allowed to queue for the DLC dungeons like nICP? If you don't think that they are prepared to handle Blackheart Haven or Vaults of Madness, why do you think they would be able to handle something like nICP? At levels that low, it's not a matter of stats (which battle leveling does a good job of boosting), but of skill availability. You simply can't DPS, heal, or tank very effectively when most of your toolkit is not yet unlocked and when you don't even have a second bar. And while DPS can be carried by an otherwise strong group, the same cannot be said for tanks and healers, particularly in fights like the Overfiend fight where his Flurry will easily 1-shot a tank who does not have block up. Yes, even on normal.

I have the Necrotic Hoarvor pet and both of the Hist skins; I have no problems with the DLC dungeons on vet, when I'm running with people I know. But in a Group Finder group, fights like the Overfiend, even on normal, are endless wipefests if key roles such as the healer are unable to do their jobs because of a limited toolkit (and also limited play experience, which is also a common problem with Group Finder and low-level characters).

This isn't a new request, and people have made it multiple times, but I think it's worth revisiting now that One Tamriel is out. Allowing low-level characters to queue for the DLC dungeons doesn't help sell them--if anything, it leaves these low-level characters, who are almost always unprepared for the demands of the DLC dungeons at that level, with sour experiences of these DLCs and wastes the time of other people in the group as well. Just add a level gate for queueing, like what exists for all the other dungeons. If someone wants to do a DLC dungeon at a low level, they can still do so by manually porting in (thanks to the universal battle-leveling added by One Tamriel)--just don't let them queue for them.

Again, I bring up the contrast: I can easily solo normal Vaults at max level, yet I can't queue for normal Vaults unless I'm level 45. I can't get past the first boss of nICP if I'm soloing, yet I can queue for it as early as level 10. This makes zero sense.

Nirrudn · October 2016

I understand why they're eligible at any level, it's an "I paid money for it so I should get access to it right now" thing.

That said, I think in order to queue for them you should at least have to accept the intro quests. I definitely do not want them to come up as my random when I'm on a low level character, and wish I could 'turn off' the DLC somehow.

code65536 · October 2016

Nirrudn wrote: »

I understand why they're eligible at any level, it's an "I paid money for it so I should get access to it right now" thing.

Well, yes. But it's not doing the DLC purchaser any favors by making it queueable at level 10.

Any DLC owner can still access them at will by porting in normally with a pre-formed group. There is no need to queue for it unless you want to do this dungeon with random people.
It's a disservice to the DLC owner
- If the DLC owner doesn't know what they're in for, going in at a low level will just result in them coming out with a bad experience and a bad opinion of the DLC.
- If the DLC owner does know what they're in for, there is no way they will want to do this dungeon with a random group at level 10. But since it's queueable at level 10, it means that when they try to do a random normal dungeon (which is something that a lot of players do when leveling new characters, thanks to the very large XP reward), they could end up in a DLC dungeon, at which point, they will likely drop the group and eat the 15-minute penalty.

Having the DLC dungeons be queueable at level 10 doesn't do help anyone, and now that battle-leveling is always on (vs. being enabled only for Group Finder dungeons), adding a level-gate for queuing won't hamper anyone who really wants to go early and will save people from unpleasant experiences in many cases.

@ZOS_Finn @ZOS_RichLambert

CombatPrayer · October 2016

Dungeons should be accessible for ANY level after 10 or maybe 15-20. To make it any higher than that keeps people from having a chance to get in and learn. Right now normals are seriously bugged dishing out 15-28k damage from mobs at higher hits and 4-6k per for lower ones. Normally, low levels with a good healer on a normal dungeon can do well though depending on the group they may die more but normals should be meant for ALL players. Vet and pledges is what they are locked out from. Locking them out from dungeons is just elitist crap. We have enough of that already.

code65536 · October 2016

autumnsongbird wrote: »

Dungeons should be accessible for ANY level after 10 or maybe 15-20. To make it any higher than that keeps people from having a chance to get in and learn. Right now normals are seriously bugged dishing out 15-28k damage from mobs at higher hits and 4-6k per for lower ones. Normally, low levels with a good healer on a normal dungeon can do well though depending on the group they may die more but normals should be meant for ALL players. Vet and pledges is what they are locked out from. Locking them out from dungeons is just elitist crap. We have enough of that already.

Nonsense. This isn't about excluding or including people. Do you really think that someone at level 10, without a full skill toolkit, without any AoE damage abilities, is a good fit for ICP or RoM? Can you say, with a straight face, that they'll have a good, enjoyable experience in a dungeon like that?

And they're not being excluded. If they want to do that dungeon, they can still enter it manually. Putting a level gate into the Group Finder doesn't lock them out of the content, but it does mean that their entry into that specific dungeon would be a deliberate one, not something that they stumble into because they're doing a random dungeon for the daily reward. Nor is it unprecedented. Zone-5 dungeons (Selene, Blackheart, Crucible), for example, are not available to queue for players under level 38. It simply makes no sense that the even-more-difficult DLC dungeons have no level gate while the relatively tamer Blackheart does.

Finally, if you want people to "get in and learn", tell me, what would make for a good learning experience? Shoving them off into the deep end of the pool by dumping them into RoM or ICP? Or letting them wade into something like Spindleclutch or Fungal Grotto? The zone-1 dungeons are open to queue once someone reaches level 10, and those dungeons are designed to be starter-friendly and are ideal starting points for people who are learning. In contrast, if you throw someone into RoM, what are the chances that they'll come out of it with a good learning experience instead of a bitter taste in their mouth.

It boggles the mind that you would label as "elitist" a common sense measure that would help newbies. Someone who is truly new to the game is going to have no clue that WGT is nothing like Spindleclutch. Is it "elitist" to signal to them that they are nothing alike in difficulty? That one is well-suited for beginners while the other is not? Is it "elitist" to prevent them from unwittingly stumbling into WGT via a random dungeon finder? Again, anyone can enter any dungeon at any level--even level 3; it's just a good idea to make sure that they are doing so deliberately and not "oh, I just wanted to try a random dungeon and I got this one".

disintegr8 · October 2016

autumnsongbird wrote: »

Dungeons should be accessible for ANY level after 10 or maybe 15-20. To make it any higher than that keeps people from having a chance to get in and learn. Right now normals are seriously bugged dishing out 15-28k damage from mobs at higher hits and 4-6k per for lower ones. Normally, low levels with a good healer on a normal dungeon can do well though depending on the group they may die more but normals should be meant for ALL players. Vet and pledges is what they are locked out from. Locking them out from dungeons is just elitist crap. We have enough of that already.

I also disagree with this, level 15 players on their first characters in the game have no place trying to complete something like ICP or ROM with PUGs. It is not their fault that there is nothing to stop them doing it but it is asking too much of everyone else in the group.

I spent about 2 hours or more the other day on the final boss of normal ICP with a level 42 DPS and a CP100+ tank before we beat it. I told them the mechanics, we worked together, but the shortage of DPS was noticeable. I was running a new DPS setup myself, even though I have 600cp, so I accept that I was part of the problem.

This is on PS4, so no 1T changes yet. The level 42 really wanted to beat it and even looked up the internet for advice, only to realize that we were not doing anything wrong, just taking too long to kill things. In the end the healer left and a healer/dps came in and we got it after a few more goes, with the additional damage the new healer was throwing in.

In this case none of us were elitists, otherwise we would've kicked the level 42 (and possibly the CP100+). As Code states above, it is common sense that tells you inappropriately leveled and inexperienced players should not be running these dungeons.

Enodoc · October 2016

code65536 wrote: »

You need to be level 38 to queue for the zone-5 dungeons. And if I recall correctly, you need to be level 45 to queue for Vaults of Madness.

Is that still true? I was assuming (but haven't checked yet) that One Tamriel has removed the level restriction on queuing.

Loc2262 · October 2016

It is still true, yep, the level restrictions have not changed. And I quite agree with the OP.

Additionally, or maybe alternatively, a "no DLC dungeons" switch in the group finder would be really appreciated, so I can opt out of them when I'm PUGing alone.

I found that running those dungeons with a random, non-voice-communicating group is (except for the few times when a group of experienced players happens to be put together) time-consuming at best, nerve-wrecking at worst.

It's a different matter when we are, say, in a group of 3 people on TS and are looking for a 4th player. We can then if necessary take the time and explain stuff to them in text chat - provided that they speak English or German, are able and willing to listen etc. We've had both very positive and very aggravating experience in that regard.

Juhasow · October 2016

With One Tamriel You can go any dungeon on any level.

Loc2262 · October 2016

@Juhasow: Nope, that's not correct. We're talking about the group finder here. As soon as one player of a too low level is in the group, you cannot select the higher-tier dungeons anymore.

code65536 · October 2016

Enodoc wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

You need to be level 38 to queue for the zone-5 dungeons. And if I recall correctly, you need to be level 45 to queue for Vaults of Madness.

Is that still true? I was assuming (but haven't checked yet) that One Tamriel has removed the level restriction on queuing.

Yes, it is.

Zone 1 dungeons: level 10
Zone 2 dungeons: level 17
Zone 3 dungeons: level 24
Zone 4 dungeons: level 31
Zone 5 dungeons: level 38
Vaults of Madness: level 45

The level gate goes up in increments of 7. The storyline 2 dungeons share the same level gate as their storyline 1 counterpart. I propose that the DLC dungeons share the same level gate as Vaults.

Juhasow wrote: »

With One Tamriel You can go any dungeon on any level.

Yes, you can... if you wayshrine or walk into the dungeon normally. We're talking about the Group Finder's level gate. If people want to do a dungeon at level 3, they can--it'll just be a more deliberate action by the player.

Enodoc · October 2016

code65536 wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

You need to be level 38 to queue for the zone-5 dungeons. And if I recall correctly, you need to be level 45 to queue for Vaults of Madness.

Is that still true? I was assuming (but haven't checked yet) that One Tamriel has removed the level restriction on queuing.

Yes, it is.
Zone 1 dungeons: level 10

Zone 2 dungeons: level 17

Zone 3 dungeons: level 24

Zone 4 dungeons: level 31

Zone 5 dungeons: level 38

Vaults of Madness: level 45

Hmm, maybe that's an oversight. With the dungeons' minimum mob level being removed (which these are all equal to), there's no real need for this queue restriction any more (@ZOS_Finn?)

code65536 · October 2016

Enodoc wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

You need to be level 38 to queue for the zone-5 dungeons. And if I recall correctly, you need to be level 45 to queue for Vaults of Madness.

Is that still true? I was assuming (but haven't checked yet) that One Tamriel has removed the level restriction on queuing.

Yes, it is.
Zone 1 dungeons: level 10

Zone 2 dungeons: level 17

Zone 3 dungeons: level 24

Zone 4 dungeons: level 31

Zone 5 dungeons: level 38

Vaults of Madness: level 45

Hmm, maybe that's an oversight. With the dungeons' minimum mob level being removed (which these are all equal to), there's no real need for this queue restriction any more (@ZOS_Finn?)

Imagine a group of level 10 players--no AoE abilities will have been unlocked (with the exception of Templar jabs), non-healers won't have off-heals, people won't even have a back bar--facing the final boss in Blackheart with all those adds and his incapacitation mechanic.

There's so much more to progression than levels and stats; the level gate makes perfect sense and it would be a grave error of judgment to remove it.

Enodoc · October 2016

code65536 wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

You need to be level 38 to queue for the zone-5 dungeons. And if I recall correctly, you need to be level 45 to queue for Vaults of Madness.

Is that still true? I was assuming (but haven't checked yet) that One Tamriel has removed the level restriction on queuing.

Yes, it is.
Zone 1 dungeons: level 10

Zone 2 dungeons: level 17

Zone 3 dungeons: level 24

Zone 4 dungeons: level 31

Zone 5 dungeons: level 38

Vaults of Madness: level 45

Hmm, maybe that's an oversight. With the dungeons' minimum mob level being removed (which these are all equal to), there's no real need for this queue restriction any more (@ZOS_Finn?)

Imagine a group of level 10 players--no AoE abilities will have been unlocked (with the exception of Templar jabs), non-healers won't have off-heals, people won't even have a back bar--facing the final boss in Blackheart with all those adds and his incapacitation mechanic.

There's so much more to progression than levels and stats; the level gate makes perfect sense and it would be a grave error of judgment to remove it.

I'll reserve judgement until we find out whether the continuing level restriction is intended or not.

If it's intended, that goes against the purpose of One Tamriel, and is redundant considering that the level means nothing compared to the enemy levels in the dungeon. Previously, the restriction made complete sense, as the level requirement was the same as the minimum level of the dungeon (which it was for DLC dungeons too, since their minimum mob level was 10).

If it's not intended, then they will have to remove it from all dungeons, and just leave Level 10 as when the group finder unlocks. But that invites players to partake in difficult dungeons before they should be able to.

If it is being retained as a difficulty indicator, then I agree it should be applied to DLC dungeons too, but maybe they should also look at the levels applied to all dungeons, since they don't linearly increase in difficulty by zone Tier.

Karius_Imalthar · October 2016

I pretty much agree with this. With GF I end up with wildly different levels and, depending on the disparity, there is little to no hope of being able to complete the dungeon.

AJTC5000 · October 2016

The level gate should stay for all dungeons, and that is a good thing. I'd even consider upping the level gate to CP10 for the DLC dungeons - 45 to 50 is a marginal amount of time if you're questing, which I strongly believe new players should be doing.

mad0ni0n · October 2016

The problem with this idea is that people have paid for these dungeons as dlc. I feel like people aren't going to be very happy when they buy the dlc only to discover they can't do the dungeons until they reach lvl45.

mildlylucid · October 2016

mad0ni0n wrote: »

The problem with this idea is that people have paid for these dungeons as dlc. I feel like people aren't going to be very happy when they buy the dlc only to discover they can't do the dungeons until they reach lvl45.

Not a case of them not being able to do it, they just won't be able to get the dungeons through the group finder.

code65536 · October 2016

AJTC5000 wrote: »

The level gate should stay for all dungeons, and that is a good thing. I'd even consider upping the level gate to CP10 for the DLC dungeons - 45 to 50 is a marginal amount of time if you're questing, which I strongly believe new players should be doing.

45 is when people can start doing pledges, so I wouldn't set it higher than that.

mad0ni0n wrote: »

The problem with this idea is that people have paid for these dungeons as dlc. I feel like people aren't going to be very happy when they buy the dlc only to discover they can't do the dungeons until they reach lvl45.

Again, this would not prevent them from doing the dungeons. They can still enter them through the wayshrine network starting at level 3. It just makes sure that if they do enter prematurely, it's a deliberate act. And, again, throwing a level 10 inside a dungeon like RoM or ICP is not going to give them a positive impression of those DLCs.

mad0ni0n · October 2016

code65536 wrote: »

AJTC5000 wrote: »

The level gate should stay for all dungeons, and that is a good thing. I'd even consider upping the level gate to CP10 for the DLC dungeons - 45 to 50 is a marginal amount of time if you're questing, which I strongly believe new players should be doing.

45 is when people can start doing pledges, so I wouldn't set it higher than that.

mad0ni0n wrote: »

The problem with this idea is that people have paid for these dungeons as dlc. I feel like people aren't going to be very happy when they buy the dlc only to discover they can't do the dungeons until they reach lvl45.

Again, this would not prevent them from doing the dungeons. They can still enter them through the wayshrine network starting at level 3. It just makes sure that if they do enter prematurely, it's a deliberate act. And, again, throwing a level 10 inside a dungeon like RoM or ICP is not going to give them a positive impression of those DLCs.

I don't disagree, I'm just saying I suspect that's why there isn't a minimum level to these dungeons in the activity finder. I'm sure ZOS are aware that logically it doesn't make any sense but have chosen not to act for some reason. It would certainly be interesting to hear their reasoning on it at least.

disintegr8 · October 2016

I agree that there needs to some form of level check, skill check, CP check for characters going into these dungeons, not just for their benefit but for everyones benefit. Let them go in with some friends or guild mates, scaling the dungeon down to their level but not scaled up to cp160 in pug's.

Had a level 15 in nWGT over the weekend and during the Inhibitor fight she was asked to res someone and the response was "how do I do that?". I left the group after that wipe. Up until that point she had said nothing in group chat and I had res'd her after an earlier fight, which led me to think she may not even have had any soul gems.

MissBizz · October 2016

I agree the reason they probably don't have a level-lock is that they want to "allow you to play the DLC the second you buy it".... but I absolutely agree with you.

I haven't really checked out many of the vet dungeons since One Tamriel, but before it I could definitely tank or heal vets. Definitely no problem on normal... but when I hop on one of my low level alts (even with 400+ CP!) I do NOT want to get those dungeons. I know that my toolkit is limited and it's not a good experience for anyone involved.

code65536 · December 2016

I'm going to necro my thread here because this is still a big problem.

I queued for a random normal today and was placed into nRoM as the tank with a group of lowbies that was at the last boss. They tell me that they had been stuck there for a long time and had wiped many times. And this is not an isolated incident. I do a random normal every day, and this is the third or fourth time this week I've had to rescue a failed run in-progress, and it's always a DLC dungeon.

(We did one-shot the final boss, though, since I was in my DPS setup with just a back-bar taunt, so I was able supply enough DPS to push the boss and skip mechanics. I'm curious @ZOS_Finn if you have data showing you just how many runs with all lowbies without anyone to help carry them actually succeed. Are these anecdotes the norm or the exception?)

Tinus_92 · December 2016

Nirrudn wrote: »

I understand why they're eligible at any level, it's an "I paid money for it so I should get access to it right now" thing.

That said, I think in order to queue for them you should at least have to accept the intro quests. I definitely do not want them to come up as my random when I'm on a low level character, and wish I could 'turn off' the DLC somehow.

You can enter high level dungeons such as Vault at lower levels, and still be scaled. However they aren't unlocked for random dungeons. If low lvl people really want to play DLC dungeons, they can find a pre-made group with friends and guilds.

kylewwefan · December 2016

I ran mazzatun yesterday on my lev 25 DK for random. Got kicked. It didn't feel good. Though I admit she's in all level 4 training gear with random level weapons I find.

failkiwib16_ESO · December 2016

I used to farm nWGT with a friend, so I que'd as tank in healing gear but doing DD role with a taunt. We just wanted to do nWGT as fast as possible, as many times as possible and used grouping tool to get 2 more in group.

We kept getting low levels into our group, and all the lowbies with 1 exception were utter useless. It was a level 18 guy who had veteran alts ~300cp and was experienced, he pulled his weight in the dungeon with 16k-19k dps - but all the other low levels wouldn't have stood a single chance in that dungeon in a full team of their own skill, gear & level.

I can't imagine how bad it must feel for lowbies to be put in group together, and have to learn the mechanics at level 10+ O_O people don't even have decent self heals, aoe skills or ultimates unlocked, often wear looted gear & bad morph of skills. Most lowbies I've met in nWGT pulled perhaps 7k dps at best >.<