I do not think a "do not let my buy crates" toggle will work. I once had a problem with phone games where I would spend way too much money. I tried to fix myself of this creating a number of roadblock to purchasing more: I removed my credit card information from I-Tunes, I turned on parental controls to prevent in-app purchases, you name it, it didn't help one single bit. When ever I got the urge to purchase something, I went back and undid all those locks, made the purchase, felt bad and locked it all up again. Over and over again.

A toggle will not work because, with a click of a button, you can reverse its effects so you can splurge. And then feel terrible about it later.


The way I finally got over that was I stopped playing those games.

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

WhiteMage wrote: »

I do not think a "do not let my buy crates" toggle will work. I once had a problem with phone games where I would spend way too much money. I tried to fix myself of this creating a number of roadblock to purchasing more: I removed my credit card information from I-Tunes, I turned on parental controls to prevent in-app purchases, you name it, it didn't help one single bit. When ever I got the urge to purchase something, I went back and undid all those locks, made the purchase, felt bad and locked it all up again. Over and over again.

A toggle will not work because, with a click of a button, you can reverse its effects so you can splurge. And then feel terrible about it later.


The way I finally got over that was I stopped playing those games.

You misunderstood. The Kahjiit RP'er is saying that a player will contact ZOS and then ZOS on their end will toggle the switch saving the player from themselves. ZOS controls the switch.

They wouldn't do this. They want addicts. As South Park says "they are counting on it"

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

JimT722 wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

WhiteMage wrote: »

I do not think a "do not let my buy crates" toggle will work. I once had a problem with phone games where I would spend way too much money. I tried to fix myself of this creating a number of roadblock to purchasing more: I removed my credit card information from I-Tunes, I turned on parental controls to prevent in-app purchases, you name it, it didn't help one single bit. When ever I got the urge to purchase something, I went back and undid all those locks, made the purchase, felt bad and locked it all up again. Over and over again.

A toggle will not work because, with a click of a button, you can reverse its effects so you can splurge. And then feel terrible about it later.


The way I finally got over that was I stopped playing those games.

You misunderstood. The Kahjiit RP'er is saying that a player will contact ZOS and then ZOS on their end will toggle the switch saving the player from themselves. ZOS controls the switch.

They wouldn't do this. They want addicts. As South Park says "they are counting on it"

WTF is it with you and South Park all over these forums!? You love rated M cartoons?

It's relevant. Their points are often good. In this case it is spot on. They really did their research. I think it adds something to the discussion. South Park has gone downhill lately, but that's not the point. I made two posts today about that episode in two threads I thought was relevant.

Edit: maybe a better contribution would be to argue my point then ask if I am obsessed with a cartoon.

I know what it's like to be a heavy drug addict (recovered for many years now)... and I can safely assure you that if somebody has an addiction, writing a message to ZOS to have them toggle it on/off is not going to help them. If it does, then they aren't addicted, just stupid, impulsive and bad at money management. The line is drawn at the fact that addicts will do anything in their power, that they deem reasonable, to supplement their addiction - toggles won't do a thing to change that even if its on ZOS side because that's so easy to bypass... I mean ***, if I wanted that Crown Crate I wouldn't be too worried about messaging somebody for it lol.

And even if they hypothetically locked it so you can't untoggle it for x amount of days - that leads to things like "oh my wife saw my forum account signed in and did this against my will" and just creates a bunch of crappy backlog for support. IN fact even if the idea of a toggle did work - it's backlog on somebody's plate and takes away from important stuff in the game.

Addicts only ever recover when they learn self-control, that's just a fact. The ones that don't develop this ability are prone and almost certain to relapse either on the same addiction, or a new one. This isn't a matter of health and safety, so the responsibility is not on ZOS, like it would be on somebody distributing drug, tobacco or alcohol because all of those can physically harm or kill you.

You may have good intentions in wanting to protect people but the reality is this is a market, people need to use common sense. In normal everyday world market, most things become unrestricted after you're 18 years old and legally responsible for yourself - the only restrictions you get are the one's you place on yourself.

They don't pull all the liquor off the shelf in a corner store because a drunk guy walked in - he's a patron, and unless he's super intoxicated and its detrimental to his life and health, then they will still sell to him. That doesn't change in the fantasyland of Tamriel.

I skimmed the comments and the whole being cutoff from drinks at the bar thing doesn't apply here. Crown Crate gambling isn't going to lead to a medical emergency, death or violence - whereas knowingly allowing somebody to drink passed toxic levels is just plain negligent and qualifies as manslaughter if they die.

I could literally argue that this entire game is a giant gamble and that anything with RNG mechanics is/can be. You are spending time farming gear. If you spend 15 hours farming one Ring, then you've effectively wasted atleast $150 in time (in my country). You don't know what you'll get or when you'll get it - you have a general idea, just like the Crown Crates. So to me you gamble more every hour you play. Personally I think time is more valuable than money, but that may be a matter of perception.

Basically you just sell all your lockpicks, never farm bosses, never do Dolmens, certainly don't do Dungeons, VMA or DA, and basically just sit in town all day doing nothing, so as to save you from yourself and your addictive personality. Because really if you don't toggle all those actives off, how would you ever manage to log out?

The answer is self-control. That is the only answer. It doesn't require ZOS involvement or time/money spent on stupid developments a small subsection of the game population actually needs - when they should be getting psychiatric help and a social worker to help them manage themselves.

MoTeets wrote: »

If you dont want them, dont get em !
Mercy, just play the game !
People are going to spend no matter what you do.

We do want the content (more importantly ZOS wants us to buy their content) but spending 100 $ because you want one item isn't feasible. Especially when the only stuff aside exclusives in those crates is useless trash that I may as well delete. Do you think you're the first one who makes this redundant argument? It's on every page and it's not getting any better by repeating it.

Telling them this is ok not only will make more content being locked away behind crates but can lead ZOS to go further than just cosmetics. Why is it that the people that aren't even interested in crates are the loudest to defend them?! Is it more comfortable to let others finance the game or do you just like denying people content you don't find worthwhile?

As this partly contains assumptions you don't have to feel addressed with everything but I've already noticed this behavior with others and it's just nonsensical.

lagrue wrote: »

I know what it's like to be a heavy drug addict (recovered for many years now)... and I can safely assure you that if somebody has an addiction, writing a message to ZOS to have them toggle it on/off is not going to help them. If it does, then they aren't addicted, just stupid, impulsive and bad at money management. The line is drawn at the fact that addicts will do anything in their power, that they deem reasonable, to supplement their addiction - toggles won't do a thing to change that even if its on ZOS side because that's so easy to bypass... I mean ***, if I wanted that Crown Crate I wouldn't be too worried about messaging somebody for it lol.

And even if they hypothetically locked it so you can't untoggle it for x amount of days - that leads to things like "oh my wife saw my forum account signed in and did this against my will" and just creates a bunch of crappy backlog for support. IN fact even if the idea of a toggle did work - it's backlog on somebody's plate and takes away from important stuff in the game.

Addicts only ever recover when they learn self-control, that's just a fact. The ones that don't develop this ability are prone and almost certain to relapse either on the same addiction, or a new one. This isn't a matter of health and safety, so the responsibility is not on ZOS, like it would be on somebody distributing drug, tobacco or alcohol because all of those can physically harm or kill you.

You may have good intentions in wanting to protect people but the reality is this is a market, people need to use common sense. In normal everyday world market, most things become unrestricted after you're 18 years old and legally responsible for yourself - the only restrictions you get are the one's you place on yourself.

They don't pull all the liquor off the shelf in a corner store because a drunk guy walked in - he's a patron, and unless he's super intoxicated and its detrimental to his life and health, then they will still sell to him. That doesn't change in the fantasyland of Tamriel.

I skimmed the comments and the whole being cutoff from drinks at the bar thing doesn't apply here. Crown Crate gambling isn't going to lead to a medical emergency, death or violence - whereas knowingly allowing somebody to drink passed toxic levels is just plain negligent and qualifies as manslaughter if they die.

I could literally argue that this entire game is a giant gamble and that anything with RNG mechanics is/can be. You are spending time farming gear. If you spend 15 hours farming one Ring, then you've effectively wasted atleast $150 in time (in my country). You don't know what you'll get or when you'll get it - you have a general idea, just like the Crown Crates. So to me you gamble more every hour you play. Personally I think time is more valuable than money, but that may be a matter of perception.

Basically you just sell all your lockpicks, never farm bosses, never do Dolmens, certainly don't do Dungeons, VMA or DA, and basically just sit in town all day doing nothing, so as to save you from yourself and your addictive personality. Because really if you don't toggle all those actives off, how would you ever manage to log out?

The answer is self-control. That is the only answer. It doesn't require ZOS involvement or time/money spent on stupid developments a small subsection of the game population actually needs - when they should be getting psychiatric help and a social worker to help them manage themselves.

Awesome post and gratz on the recovery.

Talk about redundant !

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

I can understand people disagree all the way up to being angry with ZOS and the crown crates. But it would seem to me the sense made by Iagrue's post above is being ignored. Also my post in the previous page here has not been answered.

You guys have genuinely depressed me in a place where I should be discussing wizards, demons, and cat people that speak English.

Another great post !

Half the "revolutionaries" in this thread were supposed to have canceled their accounts by now. Unless you're all just playing the forums, which I doubt.

Adults have a responsibility to control their impulses, or, in the case of addiction and an inability to do so, they should possess the common sense to steer clear of enticing substances and events and to seek counselling on how to avoid those things.

The end. And the comparatives between crown crates and some of the addictions some of you are drawing are ludicrous.

ZoS is no more responsible than a casino would be in keeping out gambling addicts (which is no responsibility at all). Age checks are the only regulated authority on who can and can't participate, and ESO and all online games have those (or Terms or Service to which we've all agreed).

Please, spend your energies on something more productive than this argument.

Edit: The "spending cap" idea listed above is the only intelligent contribution to this debate, and it's one that other games use (WoW tokens, for example).

Edit #2: Lagrue's post says it all. Close the thread.

Peekachu99 wrote: »

Half the "revolutionaries" in this thread were supposed to have canceled their accounts by now. Unless you're all just playing the forums, which I doubt.

Adults have a responsibility to control their impulses, or, in the case of addiction and an inability to do so, they should possess the common sense to steer clear of enticing substances and events and to seek counselling on how to avoid those things.

The end.

...

Edit #2: Lagrue's post says it all. Close the thread.

He doesn't argue the crates, he argues the idea of ZoS preventing certain people from being able to acquire them in the first place.

To say all it takes is self control is just blatantly wrong and tells me you're not informed enough on the subject to talk about it. Even with counselling it can take many years to solve these issues. For some it will never entirely go away so if think people should "man up" or some bs like that based on how easily you can handle addictions, you'd be dead wrong.

JimT722 wrote: »

alexkdd99 wrote: »

JimT722 wrote: »

alexkdd99 wrote: »

FoolishHuman wrote: »

Dazza1968 wrote: »

And the people that want their accounts crate blocked should cover the cost of this, yes?

Seriously, video games are the only business where every customer talks like a lawyer or stockholder for the company. No wonder they think they can just milk out our hobby like this, we gamers let them do it.

Every business who supply hobby items attempt to get as much money from their customer. That is what businesses do. You want to get as much money from each customer as possible. That is how businesses work, why should zos be the one company who doesn't care about profits?

Take rc cars for instance, a small part that cost probably 2 cents to make will cost me close to 10$. But I don't complain and cry about it, I pay it because I enjoy using it. The moment I stop enjoying something I stop doing it.

Video gamers act more entitled than any other hobbyist. You wouldn't go into a physical store and demand they stop selling something. If you did they would probably laugh while kicking you out of their store. Let's stop acting like zos is a charity organization and more like a business, which it is.

Actually, the price of that part goes down the more that will be made. The first part is incredibly expensive. Only after you can mass produce a part does the price go down. Specialty items will cost more. Still a fair price since I doubt that you could make your first one for less. I would sell my products for a fair price, and my customers would respect that.

Only the person making the purchase can decide if it is fair to them. To me any purchase I have made was fair, including crates. If I don't feel like it is a fair purchase I don't make it.

Any true gambling addict isn't buying up crown crates in eso, they are at a casino or gambling online where it nets you real cash. As others have stated this game is rated m for mature. If you are mature you can make mature decisions, if you are not then I suggest you stop playing eso and figure some things out.

No business is going to stop people from buying their product, especially when they have unlimited supply.

Yet people may have addictive tendencies and not know it. These are designed to keep you spending. Everything you see and hear is designed to make you want to keep opening crates. South Park made an episode that touches on this. Freemium isn't free. They aren't making that stuff up.

I have a hard time supporting a company seeking to exploit its customers.

Lol can we stop referencing south park? I mean come on, really? Of course it is designed to keep you buying their products. Every company looks for ways to get more customers and to get their customers to spend as much money as possible. You want each customer you pay to obtain to spend the most amount of money with you.

If you buy anything from anyone it is the same thing. They are making ads to attempt to get you to buy their products. The same could be said about tv ads, they are exploiting people's need to look cool or fit in. Zos puts cool looking items behind a game of chance and advertises that. Nothing wrong with anything they are doing.

South park doesn't make a great reference to why something may be good or bad.

lordrichter wrote: »

alexkdd99 wrote: »

Any true gambling addict isn't buying up crown crates in eso, they are at a casino or gambling online where it nets you real cash.

Gambling addiction is not about money. Gambling addiction is about how it feels to gamble.

I am not in favor of having ZOS turn off Crown Crates, on request. It is a well meaning idea, but not the right thing.

However, I would be in favor of an add-on that removed the Crown Crate tab in the Crown Store, and removed the Crown Crate icon at the top of the main menu.

Gambling is about how it feels, which is why you would want to prolong that feeling. Crown crates doesn't make that possible.

You get no return to keep the gambling going with crown crates. It is not the same thing as playing a game with a monetary return. You have the chance to win money to keep the gambling going when at a casino or other online gaming site.

Which is why anyone with an actual gambling addiction wouldn't choose to blow their money on crown crates.

Dazza1968 wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Krileon wrote: »

SantieClaws wrote: »

It is to the longer term benefit of ZOS to retain customers. Those who feel they must leave because of the crates were still spending in the store yes and some were ESO Plus subscribers. They were happy to be in Tamriel before the cratemeld.

A small programming change for a greater benefit this one she thinks.

Good business sense actually. A customer kept is one more coin in the pocket.

Yours with paws
Santie Claws

I wager the amount of money leaving is but a minor fraction of the money now coming in. I'm sure ZOS has researched this in GREAT detail as any business would. The UI can be modified through addons so maybe that'll be where you'll find a solution that doesn't directly involve ZOS.

An add-on that would allow one user account to have a feature locked by SOMEONE ELSE'S user account ????
I very, very highly doubt that.
I even doubt that this is doable by ZOS without risking many, many abuses.

Actually there is an addon for this, its called ...........self control.

I have an addon called bank control. Everytime my balance gets down to $0.00 I cannot buy anymore crates until my next paycheck. Problem solved

Nyx2 wrote: »

Peekachu99 wrote: »

Half the "revolutionaries" in this thread were supposed to have canceled their accounts by now. Unless you're all just playing the forums, which I doubt.

Adults have a responsibility to control their impulses, or, in the case of addiction and an inability to do so, they should possess the common sense to steer clear of enticing substances and events and to seek counselling on how to avoid those things.

The end.

...

Edit #2: Lagrue's post says it all. Close the thread.

He doesn't argue the crates, he argues the idea of ZoS preventing certain people from being able to acquire them in the first place.

To say all it takes is self control is just blatantly wrong and tells me you're not informed enough on the subject to talk about it. Even with counselling it can take many years to solve these issues. For some it will never entirely go away so if think people should "man up" or some bs like that based on how easily you can handle addictions, you'd be dead wrong.

I think you misinterpreted my post. I'm actually a licensed Social Service Worker, funny enough - (my experiences shaped what I chose for my career), and I do in fact have some idea of what I'm talking about. I work primarily with addicts and impoverished people.

I didn't mean to imply that self-control is the only thing that cures an addiction - in fact if you read what I said closely, I said it's an ability they need to master - it's a key element to recovery, never did I say its the only one. (Though reading my own comment I can understand why you believed that I meant it that way.)

I still disagree that setting toggles would help because my background of experiences and education tell me its not likely to help - and I do not fault ZOS for selling a product and I don't see them as part of 'the problem' with somebody else's addiction. When it comes to a client to business relationship, the client has the control to make the transaction or not. At the end of the day they really do have to try to exercise self-control - if they're undergoing years of therapy, then they should not be subjecting themselves to this anyway. That's called victim precipitation.

In fact if one of my clients came to me presenting a drug problem, the first thing I would suggest of them is to remove themselves from that environment - not call up their drug dealer and tell them to stop selling.

And I think I need to clarify something, there is no easy way of handling addictions - you're an addict for life, I know this myself. There is no cure - only management, and that comes largely from self-control. And I don't think I ever implied it was a simple thing to do, as hard as it is, its just that it was the reality of what needs to be done on the addicts end. I never said I have an easy time managing mine, just that I consider myself recovered as I haven't used in almost 10 years - that never meant it was easy or that I was trying to diminish somebody else's struggle, so I think you wildly misinterpreted my words.

If we're being honest, I had crowns saved up already and bought some of the crown crates in a bundle. I was in a moral dilemma to spend $50 on 5500 more crowns for another 15 crates and I had to push myself not to do it. All day the night those boxes came out I was having a hard time focusing on regular gameplay because I wanted to just open the menu and try more stuff - I know my credit card is there, and part of my brain is saying "DO IT" in Emperor Palpatine's voice. That right there is the addiction part of me I have to silence and suppress and it was still a struggle, I have the skills to manage my own addiction and it's still tough - but again, toggles wouldn't stop me - in fact it might incentivize me to buy it more, because when you restrict something from a human, they naturally want it more - this isn't even a reflection of addiction, just human nature. Prohibition taught us that. Never, never take away somebody's ability to do something, especially not an addict - instead help them and condition them to not want to do it and leave the control in their hands.

Social Service Work is all about empowerment, not giving people instructions to get better - they have to do it themselves, with help of couse. Nobody else can do this for them.

If it makes any sense to you this way - this is the mindset of an addict in regards to toggles. If I purposely save money on the side, and tell myself I won't spend it - I'm almost 10x more likely to actually go through with spending than if I never set that restriction on myself? I get fixated on the idea that I put money aside and "can't touch it." Why, I don't know, it's a self-defeating pattern that's common among most addicts. If I toggled the crates, I can assure you that I, and most true addicts would untoggle the crap out of them and buy more within 2 hours because we would be fixated on the fact we did that to try and prevent the addiction from kicking in.

Sorry if I triggered you but I'm happy to clarify. This is a problem that needs to be solved offline, out of the gaming world. ZOS are not psychiatrists and their game shouldn't suffer because people out there have mental disorders and diseases.

I don't think Crates are a problem.

Nyx2 wrote: »

Peekachu99 wrote: »

Half the "revolutionaries" in this thread were supposed to have canceled their accounts by now. Unless you're all just playing the forums, which I doubt.

Adults have a responsibility to control their impulses, or, in the case of addiction and an inability to do so, they should possess the common sense to steer clear of enticing substances and events and to seek counselling on how to avoid those things.

The end.

...

Edit #2: Lagrue's post says it all. Close the thread.

He doesn't argue the crates, he argues the idea of ZoS preventing certain people from being able to acquire them in the first place.

To say all it takes is self control is just blatantly wrong and tells me you're not informed enough on the subject to talk about it. Even with counselling it can take many years to solve these issues. For some it will never entirely go away so if think people should "man up" or some bs like that based on how easily you can handle addictions, you'd be dead wrong.

I never said that. I even went on to mention counselling in the very quote you captioned. I'm not sure if you misquoted me or what. And that people continue to compare opening crown crates to something as serious as drug addiction (which was what Lagrue's post was about), shows how much hyperbole is occurring in this thread. When someone has cashed in their life savings, sold their kidneys on the Chinese Black market, lost their wife, home, dog and teeth because of Crown Crates, THEN, start drawing comparisions to drug use. I went as far as mentioning Casinos, and I felt I was stretching it. You people are going beyond the pale.

It's becoming an *** of the absurd. Enough is enough. Play the game or leave it be.