When will dark deal get balanced?

ConeOfSilence · December 2016

You do realize that magsorc can use the same skill right ? These nerf threads are getting out of hand this one being a true facepalm thread.

WillhelmBlack · December 2016

Make sure to wave back at him. It's rude not to.

DocFrost72 · December 2016

raasdal wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Bandit1215 wrote: »

Well they can only cast it a few times before running out of magicka, and then they don't have any magicka for streak which is part of what makes them mobile.

You've never seen Fengrush in action, have you?

Or any StamSorc for that matter. Equip 5 pcs. Heavy and you can Streak / Dark Deal through anything. The cost of Dark Deal is not very high. I am litterally never not able to cast Dark Deal. Ever.

Flaminir wrote: »

@leepalmer95 I'll put this another way by posing a couple of questions that I like to post when people are requesting a PvP related nerf to a skill that is alledgedly broken/OP/Killed you... the answers are yes/no btw.

1. Has a player ever killed you so fast you had no time to react by the insane OP damage that <Insert current "OP" skill here> does?

2. Has a player used <Insert current "OP" skill here> to instantly take them from execute range health to almost full instantly?

3. Has a player used <Insert current "OP" skill here> as the sole skill to be able to take on overwhelming odds of 5-1 evenly matched players?

I would suggest that the answer to 1&2 is an automatic no... and the only way its a yes to number 3 is if a stam sorc is fighting a group of potatoes.

I'm not saying its not a good skill, it does now have its niche for sure & can be quite strong for what it does.

But it also has a lot of downsides. Also a lot of the points in your post aren't even related to it... shuffle dodging is a general stamina thing, nothing to do with stam sorcs, & speed has nothing to do with dark deal either.

Dark deal on its own is not an issue... its not killing you, and it shouldn't be the main reason that you aren't able to kill a stam sorc.

On that basis I wouldn't say its OP at all & shouldn't be nerfed.

So.. If something does not directly KILL you, it is not OP. So if i use CE to get Unlimited Sustain, you would be just fine? As @leepalmer95 has explained, what maked Dark Deal so strong, is that it is the single most powerful skill in the game, for gaining back resources. The end. It is SO strong, that even in NO CP Campaign, you can run 5 Heavy, and 600 Stamina regen and still have INFINITE (not kidding) sustain through Dark Deal. That is what i play every day.

I main a StamSorc, so i have "negative" bias, if you wanna call it that. In my opinion, anyone who does not realize how OP Strong Dark Deal is, either does not play Stam Sorc (or play it very badly) or does not have a real idea what it can actually do for a PvP build. It is not BROKEN or Bugged. It is simply too strong. Just because StamSorc was bottom of the foodchain, does not mean that they should not have things balanced.

IMO, a proper balancing of Dark Deal, would be to scale the resource gains to your max stat, just like most other similar skills/passives.

But for me personally, i hope the keep it just as it is, so i can keep wrecking faces with my unlimited sustain full heavy armor build.

Infinite?

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

I also don't think you know how to bash/crushing/venom. But what do I know, I'm just a no name with a great stamplar.

raasdal · December 2016

ConeOfSilence wrote: »

You do realize that magsorc can use the same skill right ? These nerf threads are getting out of hand this one being a true facepalm thread.

Yes, and the same MagSorc also have access to Shuffle. And Pierce Armor. And a ton of other skills usefull for Stamina builds. Your point is?

Sorry, but the only Facepalm here, is when people clearly do not understand what the skill does, or why it is strong. Comment like that, being right up there.

leepalmer95 · December 2016

DocFrost72 wrote: »

raasdal wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Bandit1215 wrote: »

Well they can only cast it a few times before running out of magicka, and then they don't have any magicka for streak which is part of what makes them mobile.

You've never seen Fengrush in action, have you?

Or any StamSorc for that matter. Equip 5 pcs. Heavy and you can Streak / Dark Deal through anything. The cost of Dark Deal is not very high. I am litterally never not able to cast Dark Deal. Ever.

Flaminir wrote: »

@leepalmer95 I'll put this another way by posing a couple of questions that I like to post when people are requesting a PvP related nerf to a skill that is alledgedly broken/OP/Killed you... the answers are yes/no btw.

1. Has a player ever killed you so fast you had no time to react by the insane OP damage that <Insert current "OP" skill here> does?

2. Has a player used <Insert current "OP" skill here> to instantly take them from execute range health to almost full instantly?

3. Has a player used <Insert current "OP" skill here> as the sole skill to be able to take on overwhelming odds of 5-1 evenly matched players?

I would suggest that the answer to 1&2 is an automatic no... and the only way its a yes to number 3 is if a stam sorc is fighting a group of potatoes.

I'm not saying its not a good skill, it does now have its niche for sure & can be quite strong for what it does.

But it also has a lot of downsides. Also a lot of the points in your post aren't even related to it... shuffle dodging is a general stamina thing, nothing to do with stam sorcs, & speed has nothing to do with dark deal either.

Dark deal on its own is not an issue... its not killing you, and it shouldn't be the main reason that you aren't able to kill a stam sorc.

On that basis I wouldn't say its OP at all & shouldn't be nerfed.

So.. If something does not directly KILL you, it is not OP. So if i use CE to get Unlimited Sustain, you would be just fine? As @leepalmer95 has explained, what maked Dark Deal so strong, is that it is the single most powerful skill in the game, for gaining back resources. The end. It is SO strong, that even in NO CP Campaign, you can run 5 Heavy, and 600 Stamina regen and still have INFINITE (not kidding) sustain through Dark Deal. That is what i play every day.

I main a StamSorc, so i have "negative" bias, if you wanna call it that. In my opinion, anyone who does not realize how OP Strong Dark Deal is, either does not play Stam Sorc (or play it very badly) or does not have a real idea what it can actually do for a PvP build. It is not BROKEN or Bugged. It is simply too strong. Just because StamSorc was bottom of the foodchain, does not mean that they should not have things balanced.

IMO, a proper balancing of Dark Deal, would be to scale the resource gains to your max stat, just like most other similar skills/passives.

But for me personally, i hope the keep it just as it is, so i can keep wrecking faces with my unlimited sustain full heavy armor build.

Infinite?

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

I also don't think you know how to bash/crushing/venom. But what do I know, I'm just a no name with a great stamplar.

Infinite?

In the context of this it means not running out and even if your a below average players it's so easy to not run out. You use a bit of stamina you cast dark deal when you can to gain it all back. It's not a hard concept is it?

It's almost like you haven't read the thread.

ConeOfSilence · December 2016

raasdal wrote: »

ConeOfSilence wrote: »

You do realize that magsorc can use the same skill right ? These nerf threads are getting out of hand this one being a true facepalm thread.

Yes, and the same MagSorc also have access to Shuffle. And Pierce Armor. And a ton of other skills usefull for Stamina builds. Your point is?

Sorry, but the only Facepalm here, is when people clearly do not understand what the skill does, or why it is strong. Comment like that, being right up there.

I stand by my facepalm. Try playing a variety of builds and you will soon see they all have their strengths and weaknesses. I guess every class except the one you play is OP.

raasdal · December 2016

DocFrost72 wrote: »

raasdal wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Bandit1215 wrote: »

Well they can only cast it a few times before running out of magicka, and then they don't have any magicka for streak which is part of what makes them mobile.

You've never seen Fengrush in action, have you?

Or any StamSorc for that matter. Equip 5 pcs. Heavy and you can Streak / Dark Deal through anything. The cost of Dark Deal is not very high. I am litterally never not able to cast Dark Deal. Ever.

Flaminir wrote: »

@leepalmer95 I'll put this another way by posing a couple of questions that I like to post when people are requesting a PvP related nerf to a skill that is alledgedly broken/OP/Killed you... the answers are yes/no btw.

1. Has a player ever killed you so fast you had no time to react by the insane OP damage that <Insert current "OP" skill here> does?

2. Has a player used <Insert current "OP" skill here> to instantly take them from execute range health to almost full instantly?

3. Has a player used <Insert current "OP" skill here> as the sole skill to be able to take on overwhelming odds of 5-1 evenly matched players?

I would suggest that the answer to 1&2 is an automatic no... and the only way its a yes to number 3 is if a stam sorc is fighting a group of potatoes.

I'm not saying its not a good skill, it does now have its niche for sure & can be quite strong for what it does.

But it also has a lot of downsides. Also a lot of the points in your post aren't even related to it... shuffle dodging is a general stamina thing, nothing to do with stam sorcs, & speed has nothing to do with dark deal either.

Dark deal on its own is not an issue... its not killing you, and it shouldn't be the main reason that you aren't able to kill a stam sorc.

On that basis I wouldn't say its OP at all & shouldn't be nerfed.

So.. If something does not directly KILL you, it is not OP. So if i use CE to get Unlimited Sustain, you would be just fine? As @leepalmer95 has explained, what maked Dark Deal so strong, is that it is the single most powerful skill in the game, for gaining back resources. The end. It is SO strong, that even in NO CP Campaign, you can run 5 Heavy, and 600 Stamina regen and still have INFINITE (not kidding) sustain through Dark Deal. That is what i play every day.

I main a StamSorc, so i have "negative" bias, if you wanna call it that. In my opinion, anyone who does not realize how OP Strong Dark Deal is, either does not play Stam Sorc (or play it very badly) or does not have a real idea what it can actually do for a PvP build. It is not BROKEN or Bugged. It is simply too strong. Just because StamSorc was bottom of the foodchain, does not mean that they should not have things balanced.

IMO, a proper balancing of Dark Deal, would be to scale the resource gains to your max stat, just like most other similar skills/passives.

But for me personally, i hope the keep it just as it is, so i can keep wrecking faces with my unlimited sustain full heavy armor build.

Infinite?

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

I also don't think you know how to bash/crushing/venom. But what do I know, I'm just a no name with a great stamplar.

Yes, infinite. I know what it means, and i stand by it. I do not run out of resources. Of course, i am not able to stand still and spam, lets say shuffle, and then alternate with Dark Deal, and just stand there. But in a real fight, i will not run out of resources ever. When i get low on stam, i am always able to Dark Deal back to full, and go on. By the time i am out of Stamina, my magicka bar is more than full, and i can Dark Deal back to full. Wether it is duels or 1vX i do not run out of resources. Period. That is what i would term infiinite sustain. No other class can do that.

I do know how to bash/crushing/venom. Not sure what your point is exactly. If you feel you can easily Interrupt someone Dark Dealing on demand (react to them doing it immediately), then all power to you, and you are surely better than 90% of the player base. When i fight another StamSorc, i know that i need to bash it. Because, well, i am a StamSorc, so i should know. Still, if the player is moving just a little bit, he will get almost all his Dark Deals through without problems. When i DO get the bash, it is most often because he Dark Deals two times in a row, and my bash, which i did as reaction to first Dark Deal, will hit him on his second Dark Deal.

raasdal · December 2016

ConeOfSilence wrote: »

raasdal wrote: »

ConeOfSilence wrote: »

You do realize that magsorc can use the same skill right ? These nerf threads are getting out of hand this one being a true facepalm thread.

Yes, and the same MagSorc also have access to Shuffle. And Pierce Armor. And a ton of other skills usefull for Stamina builds. Your point is?

Sorry, but the only Facepalm here, is when people clearly do not understand what the skill does, or why it is strong. Comment like that, being right up there.

I stand by my facepalm. Try playing a variety of builds and you will soon see they all have their strengths and weaknesses. I guess every class except the one you play is OP.

1: I play all classes

2: You clearly did not even read the posts. I am main STAMINA SORC. So yeah.... Saying " I guess every class except the one you play is OP" is truly /facepalm ....

Ganj · December 2016

I would love you to watch when im trying to escape from 7-8 stamina builds (blackrose,viper,tremor etc) with my magicka sorcerer. And how those stamina sorcerers has infinite stamina, speed to catch you and zerg you down. Yes i do agree with the op because i can streak few times then im out of magicka and obviously im not that fast runner but guess who is? I would love to go back those times when people have to sacrifice something to maximize one of their feature. Stam sorcerer doesnt have to do it, you dont need sustain at all. Because heavy armor also BS give too much already then the dark deal comes, here we go, time to spam that tremor and proc the viper then repeat after repeat.

GreenSoup2HoT · December 2016

Dark Deal is so strong because it allows you to perma block, sprint, cc break and roll dodge when used correctly.

Compared to my nightblade i would either have to spam light attacks with siphoning, spec for 100% regen or use Shadowwalker and hope no one interupts my cloaks.

Dark Deal in my opinion is to strong. It should scale based off your resource regeneration. That way you cant stack max stat and ned no sustain due to dark deal.

Ive considered making a stam sorc for this very reason. Why use regen drinks when you only need this one ability.... wtb regen drink buff.

cpuScientist · December 2016

So much LOL!!!

Dark deal is not weak, it is not a bad skill. It does allow a StamSorc to refresh themselves, when there is a lul in the fight or if they manage to escape refill and then get back to it. But it is not a skill that is easily used right in the middle of a fight to save oneself. Such as when a DK uses an ultimate and gets back EVERYTHING. Or a nightblade with their much better sustain and ability into just cloak off. Or a stamplar that can repent the dead.

Dark deal is a strong class defining ability in PvP. Of that no one here can argue. However it is not an oh crap button and it gives Stam sorcs a way to be unique and formidable. But honestly when compared to cloak, Jesus beam, Templar shields, wings, DK passives, incapacitating strike, and many of the other very strong class abilities and passives, it's in line with them.

The Stam sorcs niche that exists within there class is hit and run, it is annoying at times to fight against, but it's their niche and it's a fun play style for some. But if you out fengrush on any other class he will still kill it.

So seriously chill, this thread is a little silly.

threefarms · December 2016

Nerf Voldemort

leepalmer95 · December 2016

threefarms wrote: »

Nerf Voldemort

They did , they nerfed his nose.

leepalmer95 · December 2016

cpuScientist wrote: »

So much LOL!!!

Dark deal is not weak, it is not a bad skill. It does allow a StamSorc to refresh themselves, when there is a lul in the fight or if they manage to escape refill and then get back to it. But it is not a skill that is easily used right in the middle of a fight to save oneself. Such as when a DK uses an ultimate and gets back EVERYTHING. Or a nightblade with their much better sustain and ability into just cloak off. Or a stamplar that can repent the dead.

Dark deal is a strong class defining ability in PvP. Of that no one here can argue. However it is not an oh crap button and it gives Stam sorcs a way to be unique and formidable. But honestly when compared to cloak, Jesus beam, Templar shields, wings, DK passives, incapacitating strike, and many of the other very strong class abilities and passives, it's in line with them.

The Stam sorcs niche that exists within there class is hit and run, it is annoying at times to fight against, but it's their niche and it's a fun play style for some. But if you out fengrush on any other class he will still kill it.

So seriously chill, this thread is a little silly.

A stam sorc puts on heavy armor, thats fine.

Heavy armor is mean't to be the worst sustain set in the game because of loss of regen and cost reduction.

A stam sorc can put on heavy armor, then base everything else into pure dmg, enchants, gear, jewellery, everything. They runn around with 600 regen on a heavy build and sustain perfectly. They put on the worst sustain armor type in the game and go full dmg in this armor type and don't even think about sustain. They ignore a fundamental part of class/build building.

Every other class or build has to think about sustain when they build, even more so if they go heavy. My magplar gives up over 1k spell dmg in order to sustain magicka when in heavy, were as if they had a stupid broken skill like dark deal it would have over 1k spell dmg more.

Heavy mag dk's give up a lot of dmg in order to sustain. They have to put cost reduction, block reduction, magicka regen, use things like bloodspawn or tavas in order to gain ultimate so they can kind of sustain..

Your simply not mean't go be able to ignore the aspect of sustain in the game, that is just stupid. So wjy are stam sorc allowed to do so?

DocFrost72 · December 2016

raasdal wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

raasdal wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Bandit1215 wrote: »

Well they can only cast it a few times before running out of magicka, and then they don't have any magicka for streak which is part of what makes them mobile.

You've never seen Fengrush in action, have you?

Or any StamSorc for that matter. Equip 5 pcs. Heavy and you can Streak / Dark Deal through anything. The cost of Dark Deal is not very high. I am litterally never not able to cast Dark Deal. Ever.

Flaminir wrote: »

@leepalmer95 I'll put this another way by posing a couple of questions that I like to post when people are requesting a PvP related nerf to a skill that is alledgedly broken/OP/Killed you... the answers are yes/no btw.

1. Has a player ever killed you so fast you had no time to react by the insane OP damage that <Insert current "OP" skill here> does?

2. Has a player used <Insert current "OP" skill here> to instantly take them from execute range health to almost full instantly?

3. Has a player used <Insert current "OP" skill here> as the sole skill to be able to take on overwhelming odds of 5-1 evenly matched players?

I would suggest that the answer to 1&2 is an automatic no... and the only way its a yes to number 3 is if a stam sorc is fighting a group of potatoes.

I'm not saying its not a good skill, it does now have its niche for sure & can be quite strong for what it does.

But it also has a lot of downsides. Also a lot of the points in your post aren't even related to it... shuffle dodging is a general stamina thing, nothing to do with stam sorcs, & speed has nothing to do with dark deal either.

Dark deal on its own is not an issue... its not killing you, and it shouldn't be the main reason that you aren't able to kill a stam sorc.

On that basis I wouldn't say its OP at all & shouldn't be nerfed.

So.. If something does not directly KILL you, it is not OP. So if i use CE to get Unlimited Sustain, you would be just fine? As @leepalmer95 has explained, what maked Dark Deal so strong, is that it is the single most powerful skill in the game, for gaining back resources. The end. It is SO strong, that even in NO CP Campaign, you can run 5 Heavy, and 600 Stamina regen and still have INFINITE (not kidding) sustain through Dark Deal. That is what i play every day.

I main a StamSorc, so i have "negative" bias, if you wanna call it that. In my opinion, anyone who does not realize how OP Strong Dark Deal is, either does not play Stam Sorc (or play it very badly) or does not have a real idea what it can actually do for a PvP build. It is not BROKEN or Bugged. It is simply too strong. Just because StamSorc was bottom of the foodchain, does not mean that they should not have things balanced.

IMO, a proper balancing of Dark Deal, would be to scale the resource gains to your max stat, just like most other similar skills/passives.

But for me personally, i hope the keep it just as it is, so i can keep wrecking faces with my unlimited sustain full heavy armor build.

Infinite?

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

I also don't think you know how to bash/crushing/venom. But what do I know, I'm just a no name with a great stamplar.

Yes, infinite. I know what it means, and i stand by it. I do not run out of resources. Of course, i am not able to stand still and spam, lets say shuffle, and then alternate with Dark Deal, and just stand there. But in a real fight, i will not run out of resources ever. When i get low on stam, i am always able to Dark Deal back to full, and go on. By the time i am out of Stamina, my magicka bar is more than full, and i can Dark Deal back to full. Wether it is duels or 1vX i do not run out of resources. Period. That is what i would term infiinite sustain. No other class can do that.

I do know how to bash/crushing/venom. Not sure what your point is exactly. If you feel you can easily Interrupt someone Dark Dealing on demand (react to them doing it immediately), then all power to you, and you are surely better than 90% of the player base. When i fight another StamSorc, i know that i need to bash it. Because, well, i am a StamSorc, so i should know. Still, if the player is moving just a little bit, he will get almost all his Dark Deals through without problems. When i DO get the bash, it is most often because he Dark Deals two times in a row, and my bash, which i did as reaction to first Dark Deal, will hit him on his second Dark Deal.

If you think anything since caltroos-siphoning has ever given infinite resources, you are objectively wrong. You still have to balance your resources on any toon, even stamsorc.

And if a wave, a purple mist, and giant floating crystals are hard to deal with in terms of reaction time, you have one of two issues. Your ping is atrocious (sorry, not nerfing a skill for that but genuinely feel bad for you), or it takes you more than 1.1 seconds to react to one of the game's more obvious tells.

If it is the latter, I seriously (not being facecious but trying to be helpful) reccomend running resource poisons (especially if you use the nag and stam ones) when fighting, and also go find storm atronachs. Why storm atros? Because their aeo chest pound has less of a cast time, and I very, VERY rarely miss it after having practiced for a while.

As for the 1vX claim, do you mean to tell me you are just fine when equal players focus you, or potatoes? Only one warrants a nerf.

EsoRecon · December 2016

I think dark deal is totally balanced. I mean it's not like my opinion is at all biased

Sigtric · December 2016

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Sigtric wrote: »

I just don't see the benefit of dark deal being so much that a nerf is needed.

If casting it for a heal, it's possible to get DPS'd faster and well past the incoming heal you're going to get if you don't do something to buy yourself the time to cast it.

It shares magicka pool with my streak and crit surge, so many times I get 1 or maybe 2 casts available if it's an active fight that lasts longer than a few seconds or has more than 1 person fighting.

In an emergency, pots usually work better to keep me in the fight

But the heal is still there, in a skill giving 5k stamina per cast is a 5k heal needed?

Yeah but even with like 10k magicka you can cast dark deal 3 times. Crit surge is every 33s and streak is when it's needed and when it is it's 1. With tri food you can streak and dark deal 3 times before a tri pot.

Pretty much what @Flaminir said:

Flaminir wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Sigtric wrote: »

I just don't see the benefit of dark deal being so much that a nerf is needed.

If casting it for a heal, it's possible to get DPS'd faster and well past the incoming heal you're going to get if you don't do something to buy yourself the time to cast it.

It shares magicka pool with my streak and crit surge, so many times I get 1 or maybe 2 casts available if it's an active fight that lasts longer than a few seconds or has more than 1 person fighting.

In an emergency, pots usually work better to keep me in the fight

But the heal is still there, in a skill giving 5k stamina per cast is a 5k heal needed?

Yeah but even with like 10k magicka you can cast dark deal 3 times. Crit surge is every 33s and streak is when it's needed and when it is it's 1. With tri food you can streak and dark deal 3 times before a tri pot.

Yeah the heal is there.. a 50% reduced heal... so thats what? 2-3k?

A 2-3k heal is not OP in any context at all. Especially with the current stupidly high burst damage.

Its very easy for somebody to burst you down from 25k health to zero in the time it takes Dark Deal to fire off its 3k heal!!!!

So 3 dark deals before being OOM... thats about 4 seconds of casting, for a heal of approx 7-9k. If a Stam sorc sits in front of you spamming that 3 times then you should have killed them already

Sorry... but look at everything else in PvP thats bust... .Dark Deal isn't even close to being broken in relation to 90% of the stuff in there at the minute.

Dark Deal has never turned a fight in my favor in PVP. I'm more concerned with keeping crit surge up, and have streak available when I need it. Using Dark Deal messes with this.

Sure, I'll pop it if I have a second and I really need the stam, but it's far from over powered. To be honest, in Cyrodiil I don't even find it that useful. I get better healing from crit surge/rally/vigor, and pots are better if I get too low on stam.

If it had no cast time or if it could be animation canceled, I'd see your point a little better but the fact that it stops me from doing anything else for the duration and that one second is all someone needs to wreck you in today's cyrodiil? Nah.

leepalmer95 · December 2016

@Flaminir It's not a 3k heal at all.. it's an 8k~ tooltip so with heavy armor and cp it's goes to about 5k per cast.

@Sigtric Please show me some footage where you sustain without spamming the hell out of dark deal.

The only way tou can do this is if your not ong one those full dmg heavy builds and are medium with some actual regen sustain. In which can a dark deal nerf won't really effect you.

Please show much a few mins gameplay or fighting where you don't spam dark deal and sustain via pots?

Lexxypwns · December 2016

Every magika class doesn't give up slots for sustain, all the most popular/highest performing builds use witchmothers for sustain and stack 2 damage sets.

Dark deal is balanced, try slotting an interrupt, the stam sorc melts when you interrupt one or two dark deals.

mtwiggz · December 2016

Flaminir wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Sigtric wrote: »

I just don't see the benefit of dark deal being so much that a nerf is needed.

If casting it for a heal, it's possible to get DPS'd faster and well past the incoming heal you're going to get if you don't do something to buy yourself the time to cast it.

It shares magicka pool with my streak and crit surge, so many times I get 1 or maybe 2 casts available if it's an active fight that lasts longer than a few seconds or has more than 1 person fighting.

In an emergency, pots usually work better to keep me in the fight

But the heal is still there, in a skill giving 5k stamina per cast is a 5k heal needed?

Yeah but even with like 10k magicka you can cast dark deal 3 times. Crit surge is every 33s and streak is when it's needed and when it is it's 1. With tri food you can streak and dark deal 3 times before a tri pot.

Yeah the heal is there.. a 50% reduced heal... so thats what? 2-3k?

A 2-3k heal is not OP in any context at all. Especially with the current stupidly high burst damage.

Its very easy for somebody to burst you down from 25k health to zero in the time it takes Dark Deal to fire off its 3k heal!!!!

So 3 dark deals before being OOM... thats about 4 seconds of casting, for a heal of approx 7-9k. If a Stam sorc sits in front of you spamming that 3 times then you should have killed them already

Sorry... but look at everything else in PvP thats bust... .Dark Deal isn't even close to being broken in relation to 90% of the stuff in there at the minute.

You must have never played a Stamsorc, or you're just not any good at it.

Snit · December 2016

Alucardo wrote: »

Bandit1215 wrote: »

Well they can only cast it a few times before running out of magicka, and then they don't have any magicka for streak which is part of what makes them mobile.

You've never seen Fengrush in action, have you?

You're right, but should ZOS balance skills based on what the very best players can do? Do you tweak assuming that the top streamers are representative of everyone else?

The vast majority of players in Cyrodiil have not mastered the art of remaining in your LOS only long enough for them to unload, then ducking behind something to regen. For most players, channeled spells are difficult to use, particularly if facing an opponent who anticipates them.

I agree that stam sorcs are overperforming this patch. I respecced from breton/ magicka to redguard/ stamina to take advantage of it. I just hope that they aren't 'rebalanced' back to the point where only Fengrush and a few others could succeed while playing one

jkolb2030 · December 2016

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Alpheu5 wrote: »

Dark Deal is an absolute boon for the magicka half of the spectrum though. Everybody knows a magicka class that doesn't have enough stamina to break free from a knockdown is as good as dead. And it's already an absolute hassle to cast it given how many gap closers and interrupts and ranged knockdown abilities there are.

There is 2 ranged interupts..

Crushing shock
Venom arrow - No one uses.

And you can shuffle dodge both. Nothing worse they slowly attempted to get a stam sorc out of resources only for them to shuffle dodge your 2 interrupts and they go back to square one.

So why are you not calling for a nerf of shuffle? Shuffle IS broken and is giving way too much of a dodge chance than on the tool tip...

But that is probably because you also use shuffle, so it is fine....

I'm not trying to flame, but do you see my point and the irony in all of these nerf arguments?

cpuScientist wrote: »

So much LOL!!!

Dark deal is not weak, it is not a bad skill. It does allow a StamSorc to refresh themselves, when there is a lul in the fight or if they manage to escape refill and then get back to it. But it is not a skill that is easily used right in the middle of a fight to save oneself. Such as when a DK uses an ultimate and gets back EVERYTHING. Or a nightblade with their much better sustain and ability into just cloak off. Or a stamplar that can repent the dead.

Dark deal is a strong class defining ability in PvP. Of that no one here can argue. However it is not an oh crap button and it gives Stam sorcs a way to be unique and formidable. But honestly when compared to cloak, Jesus beam, Templar shields, wings, DK passives, incapacitating strike, and many of the other very strong class abilities and passives, it's in line with them.

The Stam sorcs niche that exists within there class is hit and run, it is annoying at times to fight against, but it's their niche and it's a fun play style for some. But if you out fengrush on any other class he will still kill it.

So seriously chill, this thread is a little silly.

You keep my DK out of it! He's been nerfed enough! LOL - I completely agree with your post though.

But you guys are arguing about the wrong things in this thread, to be honest..

You keep saying how Dark Deal is OP, yet every example is also referring back to how dark deal is OP in correlation to heavy armor or shuffle..

So my question is, why are you arguing that a skill should get nerfed for 'balance' instead calling for the obviously broken sources to be fixed for the same balance.. i.e. heavy armor black rose, and the dodge chance from shuffle that is ridiculously higher than what is advertised on the tool tip..

My 2 cents..

leepalmer95 · December 2016

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Every magika class doesn't give up slots for sustain, all the most popular/highest performing builds use witchmothers for sustain and stack 2 damage sets.

Dark deal is balanced, try slotting an interrupt, the stam sorc melts when you interrupt one or two dark deals.

You mean they give up stamina? Which is a lot more important on a magicka build then magicka is to a stamina build.

They gimp themselves with being able to break free twice if they get cc'd. Most people who use it gain the stamina back somewhere else, whether thans via attributions/ tri glyphs etc..

jkolb2030 wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Alpheu5 wrote: »

Dark Deal is an absolute boon for the magicka half of the spectrum though. Everybody knows a magicka class that doesn't have enough stamina to break free from a knockdown is as good as dead. And it's already an absolute hassle to cast it given how many gap closers and interrupts and ranged knockdown abilities there are.

There is 2 ranged interupts..

Crushing shock
Venom arrow - No one uses.

And you can shuffle dodge both. Nothing worse they slowly attempted to get a stam sorc out of resources only for them to shuffle dodge your 2 interrupts and they go back to square one.

So why are you not calling for a nerf of shuffle? Shuffle IS broken and is giving way too much of a dodge chance than on the tool tip...

But that is probably because you also use shuffle, so it is fine....

I'm not trying to flame, but do you see my point and the irony in all of these nerf arguments?

cpuScientist wrote: »

So much LOL!!!

Dark deal is not weak, it is not a bad skill. It does allow a StamSorc to refresh themselves, when there is a lul in the fight or if they manage to escape refill and then get back to it. But it is not a skill that is easily used right in the middle of a fight to save oneself. Such as when a DK uses an ultimate and gets back EVERYTHING. Or a nightblade with their much better sustain and ability into just cloak off. Or a stamplar that can repent the dead.

Dark deal is a strong class defining ability in PvP. Of that no one here can argue. However it is not an oh crap button and it gives Stam sorcs a way to be unique and formidable. But honestly when compared to cloak, Jesus beam, Templar shields, wings, DK passives, incapacitating strike, and many of the other very strong class abilities and passives, it's in line with them.

The Stam sorcs niche that exists within there class is hit and run, it is annoying at times to fight against, but it's their niche and it's a fun play style for some. But if you out fengrush on any other class he will still kill it.

So seriously chill, this thread is a little silly.

You keep my DK out of it! He's been nerfed enough! LOL - I completely agree with your post though.

But you guys are arguing about the wrong things in this thread, to be honest..

You keep saying how Dark Deal is OP, yet every example is also referring back to how dark deal is OP in correlation to heavy armor or shuffle..

So my question is, why are you arguing that a skill should get nerfed for 'balance' instead calling for the obviously broken sources to be fixed for the same balance.. i.e. heavy armor black rose, and the dodge chance from shuffle that is ridiculously higher than what is advertised on the tool tip..

My 2 cents..

I have already made a thread about shuffle, thats another one.

Dark deal enables stam sorc to ignore sustain altogether.. nothing else can do that.

Timer needs increasing, needs to be some sort of penalty for spamming it 4 times and it shouldn't give as much as it does now. Any combination of them basically.

Make it scale of stamina like every other skill did... every 1k increases dark deal tooltip by 800 or something. If you want it to be very high then stack stamina.

Also interupts shouldn't be shuffle dodgable, that is just stupid. Someone reads a fight correctly and goes to interupt only to be messed with by RNG? Thats just bad combat design.

Heavy armor sustain, speficially black rose is another thing... which is also in the other thread.

This one is specifically about dark deal though.

mikwin · December 2016

raasdal wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

raasdal wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Bandit1215 wrote: »

Well they can only cast it a few times before running out of magicka, and then they don't have any magicka for streak which is part of what makes them mobile.

You've never seen Fengrush in action, have you?

Or any StamSorc for that matter. Equip 5 pcs. Heavy and you can Streak / Dark Deal through anything. The cost of Dark Deal is not very high. I am litterally never not able to cast Dark Deal. Ever.

Flaminir wrote: »

@leepalmer95 I'll put this another way by posing a couple of questions that I like to post when people are requesting a PvP related nerf to a skill that is alledgedly broken/OP/Killed you... the answers are yes/no btw.

1. Has a player ever killed you so fast you had no time to react by the insane OP damage that <Insert current "OP" skill here> does?

2. Has a player used <Insert current "OP" skill here> to instantly take them from execute range health to almost full instantly?

3. Has a player used <Insert current "OP" skill here> as the sole skill to be able to take on overwhelming odds of 5-1 evenly matched players?

I would suggest that the answer to 1&2 is an automatic no... and the only way its a yes to number 3 is if a stam sorc is fighting a group of potatoes.

I'm not saying its not a good skill, it does now have its niche for sure & can be quite strong for what it does.

But it also has a lot of downsides. Also a lot of the points in your post aren't even related to it... shuffle dodging is a general stamina thing, nothing to do with stam sorcs, & speed has nothing to do with dark deal either.

Dark deal on its own is not an issue... its not killing you, and it shouldn't be the main reason that you aren't able to kill a stam sorc.

On that basis I wouldn't say its OP at all & shouldn't be nerfed.

So.. If something does not directly KILL you, it is not OP. So if i use CE to get Unlimited Sustain, you would be just fine? As @leepalmer95 has explained, what maked Dark Deal so strong, is that it is the single most powerful skill in the game, for gaining back resources. The end. It is SO strong, that even in NO CP Campaign, you can run 5 Heavy, and 600 Stamina regen and still have INFINITE (not kidding) sustain through Dark Deal. That is what i play every day.

I main a StamSorc, so i have "negative" bias, if you wanna call it that. In my opinion, anyone who does not realize how OP Strong Dark Deal is, either does not play Stam Sorc (or play it very badly) or does not have a real idea what it can actually do for a PvP build. It is not BROKEN or Bugged. It is simply too strong. Just because StamSorc was bottom of the foodchain, does not mean that they should not have things balanced.

IMO, a proper balancing of Dark Deal, would be to scale the resource gains to your max stat, just like most other similar skills/passives.

But for me personally, i hope the keep it just as it is, so i can keep wrecking faces with my unlimited sustain full heavy armor build.

Infinite?

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

I also don't think you know how to bash/crushing/venom. But what do I know, I'm just a no name with a great stamplar.

Yes, infinite. I know what it means, and i stand by it. I do not run out of resources. Of course, i am not able to stand still and spam, lets say shuffle, and then alternate with Dark Deal, and just stand there. But in a real fight, i will not run out of resources ever. When i get low on stam, i am always able to Dark Deal back to full, and go on. By the time i am out of Stamina, my magicka bar is more than full, and i can Dark Deal back to full. Wether it is duels or 1vX i do not run out of resources. Period. That is what i would term infiinite sustain. No other class can do that.

I do know how to bash/crushing/venom. Not sure what your point is exactly. If you feel you can easily Interrupt someone Dark Dealing on demand (react to them doing it immediately), then all power to you, and you are surely better than 90% of the player base. When i fight another StamSorc, i know that i need to bash it. Because, well, i am a StamSorc, so i should know. Still, if the player is moving just a little bit, he will get almost all his Dark Deals through without problems. When i DO get the bash, it is most often because he Dark Deals two times in a row, and my bash, which i did as reaction to first Dark Deal, will hit him on his second Dark Deal.

Lets see a vid of how OP you are in 1vx then. Just remember not all of us use dark deal with heavy armor, so some of us have to dodge roll and use heals more.

Erock25 · December 2016

So funny reading nerf threads. "I'm literally never not able to cast dark deal." You don't know what literally means and your hyperbole burns my eyes.

Leepalmer seems to make a new nerf thread every day. What a joke.

DurzoBlint13 · December 2016

Dragon Knights are the only class that do NOT have a Stam returning ability. They can increase Stam regen with Green Dragons Blood but they are the only class without a direct Stam return ability.
Templars have Repentance
Night Blades have Siphoning attacks
Sorcs have Dark Deal

How do you demand a nerf to one and not the others? IMO none of them need to be changed but I do not see how you complain about one and not the others that do the same thing.

And if Dark Deal is so powerful as a heal, why do all the PvEers complain about the "need" to get Vigor?

raasdal · December 2016

cpuScientist wrote: »

So much LOL!!!

Dark deal is not weak, it is not a bad skill. It does allow a StamSorc to refresh themselves, when there is a lul in the fight or if they manage to escape refill and then get back to it. But it is not a skill that is easily used right in the middle of a fight to save oneself. Such as when a DK uses an ultimate and gets back EVERYTHING. Or a nightblade with their much better sustain and ability into just cloak off. Or a stamplar that can repent the dead.

Dark deal is a strong class defining ability in PvP. Of that no one here can argue. However it is not an oh crap button and it gives Stam sorcs a way to be unique and formidable. But honestly when compared to cloak, Jesus beam, Templar shields, wings, DK passives, incapacitating strike, and many of the other very strong class abilities and passives, it's in line with them.

The Stam sorcs niche that exists within there class is hit and run, it is annoying at times to fight against, but it's their niche and it's a fun play style for some. But if you out fengrush on any other class he will still kill it.

So seriously chill, this thread is a little silly.

While i do not fully agree, you do have a solid point.

Erock25 wrote: »

So funny reading nerf threads. "I'm literally never not able to cast dark deal." You don't know what literally means and your hyperbole burns my eyes.

Leepalmer seems to make a new nerf thread every day. What a joke.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/literally

By all means, enlighten me, as to how i am not understanding the word? FYI, in this case, it is meant as no 3 in the link.

Derra · December 2016

@leepalmer95

Let´s start the other way round. Instead of making rants about how skill x is op without offering a solution: Why don´t you come up with a balancing idea for dark deal that also keeps dark conversion relevant for magica sorcs (because that one is not a backbone of their skillset).

My proposal for dark deal would be to make it cost resources even when interrupted - see how that works.

Erock25 · December 2016

raasdal wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

So much LOL!!!

Dark deal is not weak, it is not a bad skill. It does allow a StamSorc to refresh themselves, when there is a lul in the fight or if they manage to escape refill and then get back to it. But it is not a skill that is easily used right in the middle of a fight to save oneself. Such as when a DK uses an ultimate and gets back EVERYTHING. Or a nightblade with their much better sustain and ability into just cloak off. Or a stamplar that can repent the dead.

Dark deal is a strong class defining ability in PvP. Of that no one here can argue. However it is not an oh crap button and it gives Stam sorcs a way to be unique and formidable. But honestly when compared to cloak, Jesus beam, Templar shields, wings, DK passives, incapacitating strike, and many of the other very strong class abilities and passives, it's in line with them.

The Stam sorcs niche that exists within there class is hit and run, it is annoying at times to fight against, but it's their niche and it's a fun play style for some. But if you out fengrush on any other class he will still kill it.

So seriously chill, this thread is a little silly.

While i do not fully agree, you do have a solid point.

Erock25 wrote: »

So funny reading nerf threads. "I'm literally never not able to cast dark deal." You don't know what literally means and your hyperbole burns my eyes.

Leepalmer seems to make a new nerf thread every day. What a joke.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/literally

By all means, enlighten me, as to how i am not understanding the word? FYI, in this case, it is meant as no 3 in the link.

I have to spell it out for you? I am LITERALLY, 100%, without a doubt, and with no exaggeration sure that you have had instances in cyrodiil where you were unable to cast Dark Deal when you wanted to. You have been bashed, crushing shocked, venow arrowed. Your 10k-14k magicka has been depleted enough that you could not cast this 3.5-4k (or is it more? i forget) magicka spell. I too run heavy armor stam sorc build and believe that most of the time (even 90-95% of the time) when you want to Dark Deal, you're able to, but I wouldn't be surprised if a couple of times per play session you're actually out of magicka and wanting to Dark Deal. You can continue to lie if you want and come back saying that I'm wrong and you've literally never not been able to Dark Deal but everyone will know you are lying.

All I'm saying is when you're arguing to nerf something, hyperbole is your worst enemy. It just makes you seem a fanatic and not reasonable.

leepalmer95 · December 2016

Erock25 wrote: »

raasdal wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

So much LOL!!!

Dark deal is not weak, it is not a bad skill. It does allow a StamSorc to refresh themselves, when there is a lul in the fight or if they manage to escape refill and then get back to it. But it is not a skill that is easily used right in the middle of a fight to save oneself. Such as when a DK uses an ultimate and gets back EVERYTHING. Or a nightblade with their much better sustain and ability into just cloak off. Or a stamplar that can repent the dead.

Dark deal is a strong class defining ability in PvP. Of that no one here can argue. However it is not an oh crap button and it gives Stam sorcs a way to be unique and formidable. But honestly when compared to cloak, Jesus beam, Templar shields, wings, DK passives, incapacitating strike, and many of the other very strong class abilities and passives, it's in line with them.

The Stam sorcs niche that exists within there class is hit and run, it is annoying at times to fight against, but it's their niche and it's a fun play style for some. But if you out fengrush on any other class he will still kill it.

So seriously chill, this thread is a little silly.

While i do not fully agree, you do have a solid point.

Erock25 wrote: »

So funny reading nerf threads. "I'm literally never not able to cast dark deal." You don't know what literally means and your hyperbole burns my eyes.

Leepalmer seems to make a new nerf thread every day. What a joke.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/literally

By all means, enlighten me, as to how i am not understanding the word? FYI, in this case, it is meant as no 3 in the link.

I have to spell it out for you? I am LITERALLY, 100%, without a doubt, and with no exaggeration sure that you have had instances in cyrodiil where you were unable to cast Dark Deal when you wanted to. You have been bashed, crushing shocked, venow arrowed. Your 10k-14k magicka has been depleted enough that you could not cast this 3.5-4k (or is it more? i forget) magicka spell. I too run heavy armor stam sorc build and believe that most of the time (even 90-95% of the time) when you want to Dark Deal, you're able to, but I wouldn't be surprised if a couple of times per play session you're actually out of magicka and wanting to Dark Deal. You can continue to lie if you want and come back saying that I'm wrong and you've literally never not been able to Dark Deal but everyone will know you are lying.

All I'm saying is when you're arguing to nerf something, hyperbole is your worst enemy. It just makes you seem a fanatic and not reasonable.

So your saying the concept of full dmg and heavy armor with no sustain thought is good? It should be in the game?