When will dark deal get balanced?

ArchMikem

I'm a bit confused. If you're a Magicka build does that mean Dark Deal's heal is larger because it's a Magicka ability? or is the heal the same no matter which morph you use.

mr_wazzabi

leepalmer95 wrote: »

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Bandit1215 wrote: »

Well they can only cast it a few times before running out of magicka, and then they don't have any magicka for streak which is part of what makes them mobile.

They can cast it like 4 times? 5 times?

Then you use something called tri pots.

Then you let black rose go to work

Only high end pvp'ers use tripots regularly. Every other stam sorc will only have stam potions and be out of magicka. Once they use the tripot, they might get 2 or 3 dark deals before running dry.

If you nerf a skill, consider the pve implications too. Don't just think pvp for everything.

When i run maelstrom i rely on dark deal in between rounds or i start the next round with no stam an i'm dead. I don't have the time to grind cash or columbine to use 50+ tripots each vma run.

Think of the big picture before you cry nerf. Not everyone runs an op build like Fengrush.

Please tri pots are like water now.

What OP build?

I don't think i've ever seen a unique stam sorc build, every is the meta stam sorc of black rose/monster set/ agility/ msa weps

Because the suggested change would affect your msa run so much... your VO will sustain you just fine.

Fyi i got 100l tv stones in a hour, bought those alchemy sachels and got 400 columbine. Tri pots are so easy.

Using basic tri food you get like 4~ dark deals which is 20k. By the time you run out again you'll have a few more dark deals. a tri pots lets you use 3 more etc...

It gives too much and casts too quickly. There is no other sustain even close to it.

VO?

Horrible drop rate and nobody to run trials with.

I hate ic so I'm not gonna farm tv.

Let people like me play the way we want

leepalmer95

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Bandit1215 wrote: »

Well they can only cast it a few times before running out of magicka, and then they don't have any magicka for streak which is part of what makes them mobile.

They can cast it like 4 times? 5 times?

Then you use something called tri pots.

Then you let black rose go to work

Only high end pvp'ers use tripots regularly. Every other stam sorc will only have stam potions and be out of magicka. Once they use the tripot, they might get 2 or 3 dark deals before running dry.

If you nerf a skill, consider the pve implications too. Don't just think pvp for everything.

When i run maelstrom i rely on dark deal in between rounds or i start the next round with no stam an i'm dead. I don't have the time to grind cash or columbine to use 50+ tripots each vma run.

Think of the big picture before you cry nerf. Not everyone runs an op build like Fengrush.

Please tri pots are like water now.

What OP build?

I don't think i've ever seen a unique stam sorc build, every is the meta stam sorc of black rose/monster set/ agility/ msa weps

Because the suggested change would affect your msa run so much... your VO will sustain you just fine.

Fyi i got 100l tv stones in a hour, bought those alchemy sachels and got 400 columbine. Tri pots are so easy.

Using basic tri food you get like 4~ dark deals which is 20k. By the time you run out again you'll have a few more dark deals. a tri pots lets you use 3 more etc...

It gives too much and casts too quickly. There is no other sustain even close to it.

VO?

Horrible drop rate and nobody to run trials with.

I hate ic so I'm not gonna farm tv.

Let people like me play the way we want

If you want easy mode don't do vma

It's mean't to be challenging.

cpuScientist

Flaminir wrote: »

There are just SO many other things in cyrodiil far far far worse than this... not sure why its even an issue for debate until we get another 99 things fixed.

99 problems but dark deal ain't one!

cpuScientist

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Bandit1215 wrote: »

Well they can only cast it a few times before running out of magicka, and then they don't have any magicka for streak which is part of what makes them mobile.

They can cast it like 4 times? 5 times?

Then you use something called tri pots.

Then you let black rose go to work

Only high end pvp'ers use tripots regularly. Every other stam sorc will only have stam potions and be out of magicka. Once they use the tripot, they might get 2 or 3 dark deals before running dry.

If you nerf a skill, consider the pve implications too. Don't just think pvp for everything.

When i run maelstrom i rely on dark deal in between rounds or i start the next round with no stam an i'm dead. I don't have the time to grind cash or columbine to use 50+ tripots each vma run.

Think of the big picture before you cry nerf. Not everyone runs an op build like Fengrush.

Please tri pots are like water now.

What OP build?

I don't think i've ever seen a unique stam sorc build, every is the meta stam sorc of black rose/monster set/ agility/ msa weps

Because the suggested change would affect your msa run so much... your VO will sustain you just fine.

Fyi i got 100l tv stones in a hour, bought those alchemy sachels and got 400 columbine. Tri pots are so easy.

Using basic tri food you get like 4~ dark deals which is 20k. By the time you run out again you'll have a few more dark deals. a tri pots lets you use 3 more etc...

It gives too much and casts too quickly. There is no other sustain even close to it.

VO?

Horrible drop rate and nobody to run trials with.

I hate ic so I'm not gonna farm tv.

Let people like me play the way we want

The drop rate is REALLY high now due to the removal of sets. You would be geared out in 1 run nowadays, if people share. And the optimal gear set in just a few more runs honestly. U less OFCOURSE XIVKYN you need very specific pieces for your current setup. Then in that case it would be a bit harder to farm. Just find a guild to run it with. Or don't, it's not super necessary, just helps out.

Anti_Virus

Annnd leepalmer is back at it again with another nerf thread.

Lylith

leepalmer95 wrote: »

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Bandit1215 wrote: »

Well they can only cast it a few times before running out of magicka, and then they don't have any magicka for streak which is part of what makes them mobile.

They can cast it like 4 times? 5 times?

Then you use something called tri pots.

Then you let black rose go to work

Only high end pvp'ers use tripots regularly. Every other stam sorc will only have stam potions and be out of magicka. Once they use the tripot, they might get 2 or 3 dark deals before running dry.

If you nerf a skill, consider the pve implications too. Don't just think pvp for everything.

When i run maelstrom i rely on dark deal in between rounds or i start the next round with no stam an i'm dead. I don't have the time to grind cash or columbine to use 50+ tripots each vma run.

Think of the big picture before you cry nerf. Not everyone runs an op build like Fengrush.

Please tri pots are like water now.

What OP build?

I don't think i've ever seen a unique stam sorc build, every is the meta stam sorc of black rose/monster set/ agility/ msa weps

Because the suggested change would affect your msa run so much... your VO will sustain you just fine.

Fyi i got 100l tv stones in a hour, bought those alchemy sachels and got 400 columbine. Tri pots are so easy.

Using basic tri food you get like 4~ dark deals which is 20k. By the time you run out again you'll have a few more dark deals. a tri pots lets you use 3 more etc...

It gives too much and casts too quickly. There is no other sustain even close to it.

nope. no black rose, no msa hootie kai, no agility, no tri pots.

we're not all the same, thank you.

leepalmer95

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Annnd leepalmer is back at it again with another nerf thread.

Well the current state of pvp is one of the worst it's been.

All the unbalanced problems for the last few patches just got left and left, then every patch there was always something even more annoyingly broken brought in so people 'forgot' about pre-existing broken stuff.

Im just reminding people.

MakoFore

leave us stam sorcs alone, i mean dk's are hard to kill and also capable of killing hard- absolute duelling monsters, templars are like gods right now- shield stacking , etc, night blades can freakin disappear and kill with a single burst for crying out loud- give us this one thing! our mobility and resource management are all we have- and even then we re very vulnerable- i mean we dont have any class melee skills at all that scale with us- so please- leave me and my stam sorc be!

Flaminir

@leepalmer95 Let me try and word this another way as you're still comparing apples to oranges and expecting them both to be apple flavored....

There is no point comparing dark deal with the sustain skills/passives of other classes.....

ZoS has said over & over that every class WILL be different...

Class A may have the best sustain
Class B may have the best AoE damage
Class C may have the best healing
Class D may have the best single target
Class A may have the best support skills...
Class C may have the best damage mitigation

etc etc.

Its not the case that each class sustain skill will have different mechanics but be roughly equal... they are MEANT to be different... some classes are MEANT to be have strengths and weaknesses compared to others. Stam sorcs are MEANT to have this feature over other classes, just as they can all do things that a stam sorc can't.

Its not killing you, its not making them invincible, its not broken.

Whatever your personal opinions (& you have every right to those even if I disagree with them) ZoS have been very clear on this, & I'd be absolutely amazed if there was any nerf to this skill.... especially when they have said quite recently they were reasonably happy with it but were considering buffing it if anything!!!!!

leepalmer95

Flaminir wrote: »

@leepalmer95 Let me try and word this another way as you're still comparing apples to oranges and expecting them both to be apple flavored....

There is no point comparing dark deal with the sustain skills/passives of other classes.....

ZoS has said over & over that every class WILL be different...

Class A may have the best sustain
Class B may have the best AoE damage
Class C may have the best healing
Class D may have the best single target
Class A may have the best support skills...
Class C may have the best damage mitigation

etc etc.

Its not the case that each class sustain skill will have different mechanics but be roughly equal... they are MEANT to be different... some classes are MEANT to be have strengths and weaknesses compared to others. Stam sorcs are MEANT to have this feature over other classes, just as they can all do things that a stam sorc can't.

Its not killing you, its not making them invincible, its not broken.

Whatever your personal opinions (& you have every right to those even if I disagree with them) ZoS have been very clear on this, & I'd be absolutely amazed if there was any nerf to this skill.... especially when they have said quite recently they were reasonably happy with it but were considering buffing it if anything!!!!!

Where did they say this?

Why are people so afraid of a bit of balance in this game? Why are people so scared of something of their class being brought in line?

According to this thread half of you think dark deal isn't even that good and you hardly use it? So why are you complaining about the proposed balance to it.

The other half feel it's ok to go full heavy and then full damage, it's ok to ignore an entire aspect of the game, sustain building. That isn't at at all. If you wan't to sustain on a class or build you should have to build for that sustain, literally every other class has too. Why is it ok for a stam sorc to ignore that? They are very tanky in heavy, they have the best mobility in the game.

Dark deal is already different in the fact it's a self cast instant resources back type of skill. That is it's different.

But instead of just helping and complimenting build sustain this skill is currently all the sustain. Unlike others skills which just help a sustain on a class, but the class still has to have some sustain somewhere. A skill should help with sustain and not be the sustain.

MakoFore wrote: »

leave us stam sorcs alone, i mean dk's are hard to kill and also capable of killing hard- absolute duelling monsters, templars are like gods right now- shield stacking , etc, night blades can freakin disappear and kill with a single burst for crying out loud- give us this one thing! our mobility and resource management are all we have- and even then we re very vulnerable- i mean we dont have any class melee skills at all that scale with us- so please- leave me and my stam sorc be!

Why are dk's hard to kill? Because they build to be tanky? Stam sorc have a lot higher killing potential than dk's while being just as tanky.
Templars are not like gods... Most of them are just 30k healbots.
Because shields are so useful when they get bursted by light attack proc kids now.
Cloak is so bugged it's borderline useless. Everything can kill with a single burst, only difference in is return for that burst a nb and others gives up a lot, sustain and survivability.

A stam sorc can still kill in 1 burst but does not give up anything. A crit rush, light attack, dawnbreaker, light attack and execute bursts just as easy. While never having sustain issues and being tanky with hurricane and heavy armor.

Flaminir

Nobody is scared... .you just seem to be under the impression that all class skills should be comparable when they shouldn't & ZoS has stated this a hundred times.

You make assertions that skills should work in a certain way and complement this, act like that etc... but who says? You? Well its ZoS's game and they've said very differently.

A skill CAN be the sustain & not just a complement... but not for all classes... thats where the differences come in... which is working as intended.

If you want a direct quote from them on Dark Deal to just clarify what everybody has been saying throughout this thread then here's one...

Wrobel wrote: »

Cast time abilities add a risk/reward mechanic that makes combat more varied and interesting. They are harder to fire off, but the payoff should make the cast time worthwhile. Some examples of abilities we feel are worth the risk are Dark Flare and Radiant Destruction. These abilities have counter play, but feel extremely powerful when executed without interruption. Finding this balance point is challenging, but it’s something we’re pursuing in an effort to make the gameplay more varied and fun.
We want firing off Dark Exchange in the middle of combat to feel awesome since it’s difficult to do. Our first cut at this was to double the healing it provided, a substantial improvement but not enough. For Dark Brotherhood launch we’re also significantly improving the number of resources returned. We aren’t 100% against making this ability instant cast, but we’d like to further investigate the cast time option first. We think different classes should have different mechanics for resource restoration.

Please note the last bolded line..... Different classes... Different mechanics!!!!

You're confusing a lot of other issues (Heavy armour / 1 shot skills / general build synergies) with dark deal. Dark deal isn't in itself an issue.

The defense rests!

Joy_Division

Why is this ability a channel but one that does not restrict movement?

That's the biggest problem I have with dark deal. People say "bash them" but because sorcs are faster and are able to move defensively while using Dark Deal, they can circumvent the intended counter to the ability.

If you going to argue that's intended, fine then go back and retract all those complaints about Radiant Destruction and how the 28M range and zerg surfing made RD easy mode because temps could easily circumvent the intended counter.

Aquanova

On the nerf issue about Stam sorcerer, I'd like to add "Hurricane". This skill really needs to be toned down also. It's way too more powerful.

Zinaroth

MakoFore wrote: »

leave us stam sorcs alone, i mean dk's are hard to kill and also capable of killing hard- absolute duelling monsters, templars are like gods right now- shield stacking , etc, night blades can freakin disappear and kill with a single burst for crying out loud- give us this one thing! our mobility and resource management are all we have- and even then we re very vulnerable- i mean we dont have any class melee skills at all that scale with us- so please- leave me and my stam sorc be!

Funny how you differentiate stamina and magicka with sorcerers but do not bother to extend that courtesy with the other classes. I for one am not stacking any shields on my stamina templar.

Dark Deal needs a nerf. It allows a build that already has awesome mobility and survivability, best DPS among stamina builds and good magicka utility dumps to completely forego sustain, even on non CP campaigns.

Stamina Sorcerers needs to be toned down they are so insane right now.
Stamina Nightblades, and Nightblades in general, need to have their damage potential coming out of stealth reduced, this has been a problem ever since 1.6.
Stamina Templars specifically needs better passives and to have their support abilities reworked so they accomodate fighting on the move (like every other class has no issues with).
I have no comment on Stamina Dragonknight balance right now since I don't see them overperforming or underperforming in any remarkable way.

I am not one for homogenizing classes, but a couple of patches ago Stamina Sorcerers and Stamina Templars were in an equal crappy place. Stamina Sorcerers got served an entire cake with frosting and candles while Stamina Templars got the left overs. I don't know what the F went wrong when ZOS did their pass on Stamina builds but they sure didn't manage to bring Stamina Templars up to speed, eventhough they got lifted a bit.

So yes, Stamina Sorcerers needs to be toned down, and Dark Deal is a skill that is significantly overperforming, along with Hurricane, which just does way too much in a single skill.

Either that or you give Stamina Templars something completely insane aswell and bring Stamina Dragonknights up to speed too (no input on how), and leave Stamina Sorcerers where they are and maintain that Stamina Nightblades should be able to kill anyone out of stealth even if they are wearing 5H, aslong as the Nightblade exectute his opener properly.

I for one do not enjoy the last scenario...

leepalmer95

Flaminir wrote: »

Nobody is scared... .you just seem to be under the impression that all class skills should be comparable when they shouldn't & ZoS has stated this a hundred times.

You make assertions that skills should work in a certain way and complement this, act like that etc... but who says? You? Well its ZoS's game and they've said very differently.

A skill CAN be the sustain & not just a complement... but not for all classes... thats where the differences come in... which is working as intended.

If you want a direct quote from them on Dark Deal to just clarify what everybody has been saying throughout this thread then here's one...

Wrobel wrote: »

Cast time abilities add a risk/reward mechanic that makes combat more varied and interesting. They are harder to fire off, but the payoff should make the cast time worthwhile. Some examples of abilities we feel are worth the risk are Dark Flare and Radiant Destruction. These abilities have counter play, but feel extremely powerful when executed without interruption. Finding this balance point is challenging, but it’s something we’re pursuing in an effort to make the gameplay more varied and fun.
We want firing off Dark Exchange in the middle of combat to feel awesome since it’s difficult to do. Our first cut at this was to double the healing it provided, a substantial improvement but not enough. For Dark Brotherhood launch we’re also significantly improving the number of resources returned. We aren’t 100% against making this ability instant cast, but we’d like to further investigate the cast time option first. We think different classes should have different mechanics for resource restoration.

Please note the last bolded line..... Different classes... Different mechanics!!!!

You're confusing a lot of other issues (Heavy armour / 1 shot skills / general build synergies) with dark deal. Dark deal isn't in itself an issue.

The defense rests!

And again a self cast sustain is different from all classes.


But currently firing off dark deal isnt hard to do at all.

mr_wazzabi

leepalmer95 wrote: »

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Bandit1215 wrote: »

Well they can only cast it a few times before running out of magicka, and then they don't have any magicka for streak which is part of what makes them mobile.

They can cast it like 4 times? 5 times?

Then you use something called tri pots.

Then you let black rose go to work

Only high end pvp'ers use tripots regularly. Every other stam sorc will only have stam potions and be out of magicka. Once they use the tripot, they might get 2 or 3 dark deals before running dry.

If you nerf a skill, consider the pve implications too. Don't just think pvp for everything.

When i run maelstrom i rely on dark deal in between rounds or i start the next round with no stam an i'm dead. I don't have the time to grind cash or columbine to use 50+ tripots each vma run.

Think of the big picture before you cry nerf. Not everyone runs an op build like Fengrush.

Please tri pots are like water now.

What OP build?

I don't think i've ever seen a unique stam sorc build, every is the meta stam sorc of black rose/monster set/ agility/ msa weps

Because the suggested change would affect your msa run so much... your VO will sustain you just fine.

Fyi i got 100l tv stones in a hour, bought those alchemy sachels and got 400 columbine. Tri pots are so easy.

Using basic tri food you get like 4~ dark deals which is 20k. By the time you run out again you'll have a few more dark deals. a tri pots lets you use 3 more etc...

It gives too much and casts too quickly. There is no other sustain even close to it.

VO?

Horrible drop rate and nobody to run trials with.

I hate ic so I'm not gonna farm tv.

Let people like me play the way we want

If you want easy mode don't do vma

It's mean't to be challenging.

Challenging doesn't mean "must run content for a gear set that wasn't max level until 6 months after vma release".

Vma is meant to be run in high end gear.

Hundings, agility, monter set and vma weapons is high end gear. VO is an option, but shouldn't be a requirement.

Right now stam sorcs only have dark deal for sustain. Nothing else. If anything, i find siphoning attacks more reliable as you only cast it once every 20s and you gain resources while dps'ing. Dark deal requires you to stop fighting and cast the spell. That's why it gains so much back. It's a burst resource gain.

leepalmer95

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Bandit1215 wrote: »

Well they can only cast it a few times before running out of magicka, and then they don't have any magicka for streak which is part of what makes them mobile.

They can cast it like 4 times? 5 times?

Then you use something called tri pots.

Then you let black rose go to work

Only high end pvp'ers use tripots regularly. Every other stam sorc will only have stam potions and be out of magicka. Once they use the tripot, they might get 2 or 3 dark deals before running dry.

If you nerf a skill, consider the pve implications too. Don't just think pvp for everything.

When i run maelstrom i rely on dark deal in between rounds or i start the next round with no stam an i'm dead. I don't have the time to grind cash or columbine to use 50+ tripots each vma run.

Think of the big picture before you cry nerf. Not everyone runs an op build like Fengrush.

Please tri pots are like water now.

What OP build?

I don't think i've ever seen a unique stam sorc build, every is the meta stam sorc of black rose/monster set/ agility/ msa weps

Because the suggested change would affect your msa run so much... your VO will sustain you just fine.

Fyi i got 100l tv stones in a hour, bought those alchemy sachels and got 400 columbine. Tri pots are so easy.

Using basic tri food you get like 4~ dark deals which is 20k. By the time you run out again you'll have a few more dark deals. a tri pots lets you use 3 more etc...

It gives too much and casts too quickly. There is no other sustain even close to it.

VO?

Horrible drop rate and nobody to run trials with.

I hate ic so I'm not gonna farm tv.

Let people like me play the way we want

If you want easy mode don't do vma

It's mean't to be challenging.

Challenging doesn't mean "must run content for a gear set that wasn't max level until 6 months after vma release".

Vma is meant to be run in high end gear.

Hundings, agility, monter set and vma weapons is high end gear. VO is an option, but shouldn't be a requirement.

Right now stam sorcs only have dark deal for sustain. Nothing else. If anything, i find siphoning attacks more reliable as you only cast it once every 20s and you gain resources while dps'ing. Dark deal requires you to stop fighting and cast the spell. That's why it gains so much back. It's a burst resource gain.

Its burst is too much though. It;s too hard to interupt as well.

Hence the full tank damage set ups people seem to be ok with now days.