When will dark deal get balanced?

leepalmer95

They buffed dark deal too much.

That buff was the start of heavy stam sorc literally ignoring sustain. Why sustain at all? Every magicka class needs to give up equipment slots for sustain, most of the stam ones do but not stam sorc. They can get a 5k heal and 5k stamina back any time they please with a 1.1s cast time skill.

Its so annoying difficult to bash a stam sorc as well.

Shuffle dodges bash

Shuffle dodges interrupts like crushing shock.

You slow down when you bash and with the way stam sorc is being the the most mobile character in the game its not easy to actually catch up to them. You can gap close spam all you want. Bash just doesn't work most of the time.

They line of sight for like 3s and can cast around 15-20k stamina back?

Even the heal on dark deal is pretty strong, 5k heal per cast? That coupled with vigor/rally and crit surge is so annoying.

How the stam return balanced with any other skill in the game?

- It would take a nb 5x light attacks to gain the same stamina back.
- A stamina dk with 40k stamina would need 2.5x casts of igneous.
- Even templar repentance which needs you to kill someone gives quite a lot less than this.


When did ignoring sustain on a class become just part of the game. When did people just find it acceptable a class can have so much tankyiness and dmg and completely ignore sustain.

It's not even like they give up something much in return? The whole concept of turning magicka into sustain is just stupid. Every other class and build needs to build sustain why doesn't stam
sorc?

Imagine if other classes could literally ignore all forms of sustain like this. Like one of those full dmg gankblades who can 1 hit pretty much anything, That with infinite sustain...

Bandit1215

Well they can only cast it a few times before running out of magicka, and then they don't have any magicka for streak which is part of what makes them mobile.

Alucardo

Bandit1215 wrote: »

Well they can only cast it a few times before running out of magicka, and then they don't have any magicka for streak which is part of what makes them mobile.

You've never seen Fengrush in action, have you?

leepalmer95

Bandit1215 wrote: »

Well they can only cast it a few times before running out of magicka, and then they don't have any magicka for streak which is part of what makes them mobile.

They can cast it like 4 times? 5 times?

Then you use something called tri pots.

Then you let black rose go to work

Alucardo

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Bandit1215 wrote: »

Well they can only cast it a few times before running out of magicka, and then they don't have any magicka for streak which is part of what makes them mobile.

They can cast it like 4 times? 5 times?

Then you use something called tri pots.

Then you let black rose go to work

tbh even casting it twice is enough to heal me to full and replenish a large portion of my stamina. Any more than that and I'm just being greedy.
It definitely works better with heavy armor builds compared to medium. With heavy (ie: Black Rose), I can run with a minimum regen and just max out my magicka pool with proper food. With medium I find it better to go health + regen, which is weird considering medium is supposed to be more forgiving with my stamina...
I guess the other problem is Stam sorcs don't really need to rely on magicka abilities much, compared to something like DKs. If we had to cast Igneous and Volatile armor as much as they do we wouldn't have the magicka to spam dark deal.

leepalmer95

Alucardo wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Bandit1215 wrote: »

Well they can only cast it a few times before running out of magicka, and then they don't have any magicka for streak which is part of what makes them mobile.

They can cast it like 4 times? 5 times?

Then you use something called tri pots.

Then you let black rose go to work

tbh even casting it twice is enough to heal me to full and replenish a large portion of my stamina. Any more than that and I'm just being greedy.
It definitely works better with heavy armor builds compared to medium. With heavy (ie: Black Rose), I can run with a minimum regen and just max out my magicka pool with proper food. With medium I find it better to go health + regen, which is weird considering medium is supposed to be more forgiving with my stamina...
I guess the other problem is Stam sorcs don't really need to rely on magicka abilities much, compared to something like DKs. If we had to cast Igneous and Volatile armor as much as they do we wouldn't have the magicka to spam dark deal.

Its because all of their utility skills like their armor buff, shuffle etc.. are all stamina. Where as other classes are magicka based skills.

They only really use it for dark deal and streak with dark deal being used the most.

Its been over buffed so much and it's just stupid.

I have to use lich on my heavy magplar as well as run 3x regen glyphs in order to sustain and attempt to deal with the stupid dmg heavy stam builds are putting out. Imagine if i could drop the lich get 3x willpower and switch my willpower sword for torugs pact and go 3x spell dmg.

I'd gain 829 unbuffed spell dmg so 1036 spell if you count major and minor sorcery but lose like the 900 from lich.

Heavy stam build don't even give up on dmg either, the wraith makes up for the wpn dmg medium bonus.
Heavy mag builds give up penetration which wraith doesn't make up for... so it's a dmg loss.

Then stam builds just throw on maces and gain penetration..

starkerealm

Alucardo wrote: »

Bandit1215 wrote: »

Well they can only cast it a few times before running out of magicka, and then they don't have any magicka for streak which is part of what makes them mobile.

You've never seen Fengrush in action, have you?

Yeah, but I don't see how insulting the devs and then whining about how they don't do nice stuff for him has anything to do with stamsorcs.

leepalmer95

starkerealm wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Bandit1215 wrote: »

Well they can only cast it a few times before running out of magicka, and then they don't have any magicka for streak which is part of what makes them mobile.

You've never seen Fengrush in action, have you?

Yeah, but I don't see how insulting the devs and then whining about how they don't do nice stuff for him has anything to do with stamsorcs.

He mains a stam sorc. Still kind of does but it's a support type of sorc for his small group.

Point is he's never out of magicka or stamina at the same time. Even in a heavy build with like 600 regen.

Flaminir

Each class is meant to be different...

Stam sorcs are the only class to not have a single direct damage class ability, instead they have a few support skills with interesting mechanics/tradeoffs like this.

Its taken two years for stam sorc to be viable... suggesting nerfs to skills as mundane as dark deal is just crazy and would lead us back down the road to where they are bottom of every list again.

And if you think its dark deal specifically thats stopping you killing a stam sorc then you are likely to be very disapointed if it ever does get nerfed

leepalmer95

Flaminir wrote: »

Each class is meant to be different...

Stam sorcs are the only class to not have a single direct damage class ability, instead they have a few support skills with interesting mechanics/tradeoffs like this.

Its taken two years for stam sorc to be viable... suggesting nerfs to skills as mundane as dark deal is just crazy and would lead us back down the road to where they are bottom of every list again.

And if you think its dark deal specifically thats stopping you killing a stam sorc then you are likely to be very disapointed if it ever does get nerfed

Different how? As in ignore a part of the game? Becaue if stam sorc are allowed to ignore sustain can my mag dk ignore armor? Like just have 50% reduction all the time? No need for armor buffs so i can go light to maximise dmg?

How a certain class used to be is irrelevant, doesn't matter what is used to be what matters is what it is now. Mag dk's used to be gods but now they are bottom. Should they be nerfed again because they were mini emp's at launch?

Class dmg abilites are irrelevant with stamina, stamina have 4 damaging weapon skill lines to choose from all with good skill.

Stam dk only has dots, stamplar has jabs which is just bad hence why most of them just use dizzying.

Only a stam nb have a good class stamina stamable.

You think dark deal is mundane? So you won't care if it's nerfed at all then, it's not an important skill, not strong at all and won't force stam sorc's to actually think about character building.

If dark deal is nerfed then all these 600 regen max dmg heavy builds will have to rethink. As in they'd drop a lot of dmg. Look at how much dmg all the heavy magicka builds give up. You wont be able to get 11 pieces of full dmg equipment. You would have to give up 4-5 pieces for sustain and maybe even some glyph's like every other normal class does if they want to go heavy.

I long for if it does get nerfed and stam sorc can't run around with 42k stamina and near 4k wpn dmg with infinite sustain in heavy.

cpuScientist

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA LOLOLOL my goodness people. I love this thread. You know how woefully weak StamSorc used to be. And how everyone took a dump on the current changes as not being enough. But golly gee look at this now it's a ok lol. Now people are crying NERF. It has a cast time deal with it. It's not game breaking it gives them a slight edge. But they have to disengage and cast it a good few times. To get back good stats. Some people gee wizz. Or better yet just kill PvP off so the whiners can shut it.

leepalmer95

cpuScientist wrote: »

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA LOLOLOL my goodness people. I love this thread. You know how woefully weak StamSorc used to be. And how everyone took a dump on the current changes as not being enough. But golly gee look at this now it's a ok lol. Now people are crying NERF. It has a cast time deal with it. It's not game breaking it gives them a slight edge. But they have to disengage and cast it a good few times. To get back good stats. Some people gee wizz. Or better yet just kill PvP off so the whiners can shut it.

Again how things used to be is irrelevant.. .

Can't you please read the thread before spamming it and not contributing.

I suppose destro ult is a 'slight edge' as well?

Vaoh

@Alucardo

When referring to Fengrush you are probably thinking about his Sorc Tank build. It is much easier to spam Dark Conversion due to that build having high Magicka regen.

I'd like to point out that I have run the same build as well. You don't kill ANYTHING on that build.

DHale

Buffed too much.... ha ha good one.

leepalmer95

DHale wrote: »

Buffed too much.... ha ha good one.

Sorcerna VR 16 forever

I can see you may be a bit bias on this topic.

Flaminir

@leepalmer95 I'll put this another way by posing a couple of questions that I like to post when people are requesting a PvP related nerf to a skill that is alledgedly broken/OP/Killed you... the answers are yes/no btw.

1. Has a player ever killed you so fast you had no time to react by the insane OP damage that <Insert current "OP" skill here> does?

2. Has a player used <Insert current "OP" skill here> to instantly take them from execute range health to almost full instantly?

3. Has a player used <Insert current "OP" skill here> as the sole skill to be able to take on overwhelming odds of 5-1 evenly matched players?


I would suggest that the answer to 1&2 is an automatic no... and the only way its a yes to number 3 is if a stam sorc is fighting a group of potatoes.

I'm not saying its not a good skill, it does now have its niche for sure & can be quite strong for what it does.

But it also has a lot of downsides. Also a lot of the points in your post aren't even related to it... shuffle dodging is a general stamina thing, nothing to do with stam sorcs, & speed has nothing to do with dark deal either.

Dark deal on its own is not an issue... its not killing you, and it shouldn't be the main reason that you aren't able to kill a stam sorc.

On that basis I wouldn't say its OP at all & shouldn't be nerfed.

mad0ni0n

I just leveled up my stam sorc and when I first used dark deal I actually couldn't believe how broken it seems. literally can go from almost dead with no stamina to full health/stamina just by pressing the same button 3/4 times.

Sigtric

I just don't see the benefit of dark deal being so much that a nerf is needed.

If casting it for a heal, it's possible to get DPS'd faster and well past the incoming heal you're going to get if you don't do something to buy yourself the time to cast it.

It shares magicka pool with my streak and crit surge, so many times I get 1 or maybe 2 casts available if it's an active fight that lasts longer than a few seconds or has more than 1 person fighting.

In an emergency, pots usually work better to keep me in the fight

DHale

leepalmer95 wrote: »

DHale wrote: »

Buffed too much.... ha ha good one.

Sorcerna VR 16 forever

I can see you may be a bit bias on this topic.

She is vr 16 since I have not played her since DB update. Mag sorc is as useless as a Christmas card in June. She doesn't even have armor.

mikwin

If dark deal gets nerfed then dizzying swing should be buffed so it hits instantly like concealed weopen. All classes have advantages and dis advantages, only stuff that really needs fixing right now is heavy armor and proc sets. Heavy armor users should not be hitting as hard as other armor users and they definitely shouldn't have as good resources.

leepalmer95

Sigtric wrote: »

I just don't see the benefit of dark deal being so much that a nerf is needed.

If casting it for a heal, it's possible to get DPS'd faster and well past the incoming heal you're going to get if you don't do something to buy yourself the time to cast it.

It shares magicka pool with my streak and crit surge, so many times I get 1 or maybe 2 casts available if it's an active fight that lasts longer than a few seconds or has more than 1 person fighting.

In an emergency, pots usually work better to keep me in the fight

But the heal is still there, in a skill giving 5k stamina per cast is a 5k heal needed?

Yeah but even with like 10k magicka you can cast dark deal 3 times. Crit surge is every 33s and streak is when it's needed and when it is it's 1. With tri food you can streak and dark deal 3 times before a tri pot.

Browiseth

I respectfully disagree

Izaki

The answer is poisons. Works great on literally everything in PvP. That stam sorc is dark dealing and streaking too much? 60% cost increase and they can't do ***. That magicka sorc shield stacking? 60% cost increase and they can't do ***. That nb cloaking? 60% cost increase and they can't do ***. That magplar is spamming BoL? 60% cost increase and they can't do ***.

Flaminir

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Sigtric wrote: »

I just don't see the benefit of dark deal being so much that a nerf is needed.

If casting it for a heal, it's possible to get DPS'd faster and well past the incoming heal you're going to get if you don't do something to buy yourself the time to cast it.

It shares magicka pool with my streak and crit surge, so many times I get 1 or maybe 2 casts available if it's an active fight that lasts longer than a few seconds or has more than 1 person fighting.

In an emergency, pots usually work better to keep me in the fight

But the heal is still there, in a skill giving 5k stamina per cast is a 5k heal needed?

Yeah but even with like 10k magicka you can cast dark deal 3 times. Crit surge is every 33s and streak is when it's needed and when it is it's 1. With tri food you can streak and dark deal 3 times before a tri pot.

Yeah the heal is there.. a 50% reduced heal... so thats what? 2-3k?

A 2-3k heal is not OP in any context at all. Especially with the current stupidly high burst damage.

Its very easy for somebody to burst you down from 25k health to zero in the time it takes Dark Deal to fire off its 3k heal!!!!

So 3 dark deals before being OOM... thats about 4 seconds of casting, for a heal of approx 7-9k. If a Stam sorc sits in front of you spamming that 3 times then you should have killed them already

Sorry... but look at everything else in PvP thats bust... .Dark Deal isn't even close to being broken in relation to 90% of the stuff in there at the minute.

sneakymitchell

How about u bash the sorc. Like no one interrupt chanalled abilites.

Wollust

DHale wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

DHale wrote: »

Buffed too much.... ha ha good one.

Sorcerna VR 16 forever

I can see you may be a bit bias on this topic.

She is vr 16 since I have not played her since DB update. Mag sorc is as useless as a Christmas card in June. She doesn't even have armor.

Mag sorc is in a pretty good spot tho PvP wise

Alpheu5

Dark Deal is an absolute boon for the magicka half of the spectrum though. Everybody knows a magicka class that doesn't have enough stamina to break free from a knockdown is as good as dead. And it's already an absolute hassle to cast it given how many gap closers and interrupts and ranged knockdown abilities there are.

leepalmer95

Alpheu5 wrote: »

Dark Deal is an absolute boon for the magicka half of the spectrum though. Everybody knows a magicka class that doesn't have enough stamina to break free from a knockdown is as good as dead. And it's already an absolute hassle to cast it given how many gap closers and interrupts and ranged knockdown abilities there are.

There is 2 ranged interupts..

Crushing shock
Venom arrow - No one uses.


And you can shuffle dodge both. Nothing worse they slowly attempted to get a stam sorc out of resources only for them to shuffle dodge your 2 interrupts and they go back to square one.

darthsithis

Can I also add that to magsorcs who duel, it is a means to being competitive against stam Dk's using tremor scale and black rose?

Hahahaha I still have stam UH OH!

leepalmer95

darthsithis wrote: »

Can I also add that to magsorcs who duel, it is a means to being competitive against stam Dk's using tremor scale and black rose?

Hahahaha I still have stam UH OH!

Funny i seem to do find without spamming that in a duel on my mag sorc.

Maybe you just need to manage your stamina better?

raasdal

Alucardo wrote: »

Bandit1215 wrote: »

Well they can only cast it a few times before running out of magicka, and then they don't have any magicka for streak which is part of what makes them mobile.

You've never seen Fengrush in action, have you?

Or any StamSorc for that matter. Equip 5 pcs. Heavy and you can Streak / Dark Deal through anything. The cost of Dark Deal is not very high. I am litterally never not able to cast Dark Deal. Ever.

Flaminir wrote: »

@leepalmer95 I'll put this another way by posing a couple of questions that I like to post when people are requesting a PvP related nerf to a skill that is alledgedly broken/OP/Killed you... the answers are yes/no btw.

1. Has a player ever killed you so fast you had no time to react by the insane OP damage that <Insert current "OP" skill here> does?

2. Has a player used <Insert current "OP" skill here> to instantly take them from execute range health to almost full instantly?

3. Has a player used <Insert current "OP" skill here> as the sole skill to be able to take on overwhelming odds of 5-1 evenly matched players?


I would suggest that the answer to 1&2 is an automatic no... and the only way its a yes to number 3 is if a stam sorc is fighting a group of potatoes.

I'm not saying its not a good skill, it does now have its niche for sure & can be quite strong for what it does.

But it also has a lot of downsides. Also a lot of the points in your post aren't even related to it... shuffle dodging is a general stamina thing, nothing to do with stam sorcs, & speed has nothing to do with dark deal either.

Dark deal on its own is not an issue... its not killing you, and it shouldn't be the main reason that you aren't able to kill a stam sorc.

On that basis I wouldn't say its OP at all & shouldn't be nerfed.

So.. If something does not directly KILL you, it is not OP. So if i use CE to get Unlimited Sustain, you would be just fine? As @leepalmer95 has explained, what maked Dark Deal so strong, is that it is the single most powerful skill in the game, for gaining back resources. The end. It is SO strong, that even in NO CP Campaign, you can run 5 Heavy, and 600 Stamina regen and still have INFINITE (not kidding) sustain through Dark Deal. That is what i play every day.

I main a StamSorc, so i have "negative" bias, if you wanna call it that. In my opinion, anyone who does not realize how OP Strong Dark Deal is, either does not play Stam Sorc (or play it very badly) or does not have a real idea what it can actually do for a PvP build. It is not BROKEN or Bugged. It is simply too strong. Just because StamSorc was bottom of the foodchain, does not mean that they should not have things balanced.

IMO, a proper balancing of Dark Deal, would be to scale the resource gains to your max stat, just like most other similar skills/passives.

But for me personally, i hope the keep it just as it is, so i can keep wrecking faces with my unlimited sustain full heavy armor build.