Tank: "It's not my job to debuff." Yeah, right...

Francis_Toliver · November 2016

Baconfat79 wrote: »

In these 4-man dungeons, it absolutely is the tank's job to provide debuffs...and also to provide Warhorn as often as possible. Tanking is more than just taunting the boss and staying alive. If you disagree with that, you are a bad tank. Why would you not want to do everything possible to help your group perform better?

Your assumption that the only support a tank can give are those things you have listed is erroneous. Yes, a good tank will offer more support then simply taunting enemies, but the fact that you think you have the one true and only right way to offer that support is....funny.

DoccEff · November 2016

Francis_Toliver wrote: »

DoccEff wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Tanks should always use Pierce unless they need to be ranged. So the tank is wrong when it comes to the matter of tank gameplay.

Still, this is an adult game and you shouldn't instantly get pissed when someone dares to criticise you or gives you advice. Seriously, some people should grow a thicker skin. We're not in elementary school anymore, where no matter how bad you are at something, your teacher will still help you and say it's fine...

You mean like you are getting when people in this forum criticize you? hmm. Imagine that!

Yeah, I'll have to work on that too not saying I'm perfect.

newtinmpls · November 2016

DoccEff wrote: »

But please tell me, how I could have been more helpful here. I was just saying, please use this skill to support the group..

The easy answer is to look at your quoted text and say that nowhere in there do I see any use of the word "please".

The more honest answer is to say that for me it works better if the problem (i.e. my UI says the boss is not very debuffed, and we need more to get him down) is explained first, then possible answers are suggested "here are the debuffs that I know of - is anyone using/not using them?" "anyone have more ideas of how we could make this better?")

I realize that takes time.

Which makes me think of the "what is Casual" thread.

I'd rather take the time to have a good conversation about how the group can synergize with each other, as opposed to an angry-and-crabby feeling speed run.

RazorCaltrops · November 2016

The posts in this topic are getting more funny, like tanks with no access to first skill of 1H&S, holding aggro is a tank's only job etc.

And people defending that kind of players by using the low cp argument as an excuse is even worse. In fact, pathetic.

TheSeer · November 2016

This is how I was taught how the roles are suppose to work.

Tanks
- Keeps Mobs/Bosses attention
- Buffs Group/Self
- Debuffs Boss
- Able to take damage
- Keeps Mobs/Boss off Healer

DPS
- Can cause lots of damage fairly quick
- Doesn't pull Mobs/Boss
- Doesn't stand in AoE damage
- Buffs Group
- Keeps Mobs off Healer

Healer
- Doesn't pull Mobs/Boss
- Uses AoE Heals
- Uses HoT Heals
- Debuffs Boss
- Doesn't overheal group and pull aggro
- Removes negative effects from Tank/Group

Smashington357 · November 2016

Don't forget its a pug and not a platform to dictate what's right and wrong with a build. If you want a perfect tank that does everything you want that's called getting some friends.If you got a tank that held aggro and wasn't spamming dizzying swing with a two handed sword you won. Take your win home and don't complain or you may end up tankless or with that guy and the two hander

Destruent · November 2016

those threads are so crazy...guy asks for more grp-support to make the run even faster/smoother and another one says "i don't want to help the group with this bc...i don't know..."
Seriously, anyone who is not willing to provide as much support/help as possible to the group should think about if he/she really wants to play in a group. Maybe those guys should better play solo?

WalksonGraves · November 2016

Piercing strike is a no brainer. Even as a mag tank it's cheaper than the only other option. It's not like anyone uses mark target in groups, ppl expect the tank to use piercing.

cbaudersub17_ESO · November 2016

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Exactly what I have been arguing.
Skills locked behind level, limited skill points.
Scaled up players arent capable of performing roles properly.
Is that a player problem or a game design problem ?
Vets dont want new players to be competitive....they have to earn it.
So whose fault is that when they cant even play their role ?

But where do you draw the line.
DPS not doing 20k dps ..because they dont have 561 CP and skills unlocked?
Tank with no access to taunt..because not levelled enough.
Are you suggesting we say...new player...you cant play!
Thats stupid and you would be stupid to propose it.
You cant gate content...and yet here we are with gated roles.

Now imagine a new player can put points into any active skill straight from the off.
They just cant unlock every skill until further into the game.
That means they can use the skill they actually need 1st and level it straight away.
The only problem is they lack skill points.
So they cant invest in everything like vets.

With respect to choosing to be a tanker, the 'not leveled enough' situation does not really apply all to well. Puncture is a Rank 2 One-Handed and Shield Skill. Don the one-hander and shield, type '/fart', and the skill is pretty much available. Since taunting in order to hold aggro IS a pretty defining attribute to the role of tank, this pretty much should be a priority with skill point allocation. Is it three or four skill points that you get if you bypass the tutorial quest? With respect to tanker, fulfilling the role properly is not gated by the game.

Now all these other jobs people are assigning beyond the trinity role can be a problem. And its not just a tank problem.

Tonnopesce · November 2016

If i see a 50k healt tank i roll my eyes regardess the use of debuffs or not.

xblackroxe · November 2016

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

Jamini wrote: »

Smashington357 wrote: »

Jamini wrote: »

> Honestly if you couldn't burn the boss without that minor debuff and had to make a forum post about this i feel sorry for your dps.

Eh, it's not exactly a minor debuff.

-30% Armor reduction, 30% magic armor reduction if you take pierce over ranksack.
-One of two taunts in the game
-Lasts for 15s
It's part of the S+B line, which is most common for tanks due to the amazing blocking passives.

I occasionally use the ranged taunt for enemies that aren't safe to approach. (Volenfall last boss, Ash II Titan boss) but Pierce Armor/Ransack is Substantially better than Inner Fire/Inner Beast.

Where are you getting 30%? Its a 8k debuff do you have a list of every bosses physical and spell resist? Because Ive never seen one. And at what point do you reach the armor penetration cap? I know there is one and factoring in my spell and armor penetration I'm sure im well past it and it becomes useless. I run sharpened as do most DPS plus CP and destruction staff passives I honestly don't see the debuff are useful. Not to the point of creating a forum post over a single pug if he held aggro then he did fine.

A taunt will reduce this by 8,000, or 16% additional damage taken.

1. Major Fracture and Breach a 5,2k, not 8000
2. Destruction staff passives are ONLY for destro staff abilities

Nevertheless is any tank not running these debufs in pve completely useless.

Again, we are talking about Fungal 2. His important is the debuff for such short boss fights.

We aren't talking about a leaderboard run in a vet trial. Most groups do not have those debuffs on the mage in vAA. Well, I expext most do not.

Are you for real?

I would not expect some pug tank to run alkosh/ebon or the healer to apply infallible or powerof the light on rach mob but a tank not running pierce armor? You sacrifice nothing using this skill as you need a taunt anyways so please.
Major Breach and Major Fracture are the most basic debuff that id expect even from a pug tank.

WalksonGraves · November 2016

Tonnopesce wrote: »

If i see a 50k healt tank i roll my eyes regardess the use of debuffs or not.

You realize how stupid that sounds? Hp only takes away from resource pools. Most tank abilities only scale in damage so if you have resource management handled you can use hp as a dump stat. Don't assume you know every build.

idk · November 2016

cbaudersub17_ESO wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Tanks should always use Pierce unless they need to be ranged. So the tank is wrong when it comes to the matter of tank gameplay.

Uhm...I hate to break it to you; but other reasons exist for not using (or preferentially avoiding use of) puncture (and its morphs) as a tank.

@cbaudersub17_ESO for the most part the person you quoted is correct. The S&B taunt and more specifically, the Pierce armor morph, is the prefered taunt even for magika tanks.

Outside of range being an issue there are few, if any, reasons to use the ranged taunt.

This of course is for a real tank. There are times in the game where someone would taunt but not actually be a tank and. It have S&B equipped.

Tonnopesce · November 2016

WalksonGraves wrote: »

Tonnopesce wrote: »

If i see a 50k healt tank i roll my eyes regardess the use of debuffs or not.

You realize how stupid that sounds? Hp only takes away from resource pools. Most tank abilities only scale in damage so if you have resource management handled you can use hp as a dump stat. Don't assume you know every build.

When i use the cheese trial build (bloodspawn +tava's + ebon) i have 31k healt, and when i use the dungeon "tank need to stay alive " (bloodspawn +tava's + pariah) build i have 28k.

You don't need damage even if is welcome, Since the tank abilities are first of all group utilities or selfbuffs...
And as you said hp takes away resources... Stamina for BLOCK, you know is what a tank does most of the time.
Magica for SUSTAIN, resources conversion and utilities.
I don't know all the builds but not everything works you know.

Alucardo · November 2016

Man I have to run two taunts (non DK tank). I use inner fire to range taunt ranged mobs, and then swarm mother to drag them in, I then use pierce armor for bosses and to group up trash, because spamming inner fire is expensive.
Having both is actually pretty useful. Pierce armor for the spell/physical resist debuff, and inner fire for the synergy when the boss has loads of adds around it.
Doing a bit of extra work actually makes it more interesting, because tanking group dungeons is honestly the most boring job in the world.

Kidly · November 2016

I'm an inner fire magicka heal tank. Is it my job to debuff or when I'm running dungeons can I just leave it to one of my 3 dps that I'm supporting with buffs and heals?

WalksonGraves · November 2016

Kidly wrote: »

I'm an inner fire magicka heal tank. Is it my job to debuff or when I'm running dungeons can I just leave it to one of my 3 dps that I'm supporting with buffs?

Pretty much. No one else is expecting to have to use skills to accomplish something that is one the basic function of the tank. Ps is the cheapest and most efficient way to go about both.

cbaudersub17_ESO · November 2016

Woeler wrote: »

cbaudersub17_ESO wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

cbaudersub17_ESO wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Tanks should always use Pierce unless they need to be ranged. So the tank is wrong when it comes to the matter of tank gameplay.

Uhm...I hate to break it to you; but other reasons exist for not using (or preferentially avoiding use of) puncture (and its morphs) as a tank.

If you are talking about the elemental drain issue, that problem has been long, long, long solved.

Not one of the reasons I was thinking of, but good to know.

These reasons, tell me all about them.

So how does this work? I list two or maybe three things then you say I'm right; or do you try shooting hole in my challenge to your use of "always" (one exception noted). No mention of group composition, no mention particular tank build, no mention of content, no mention of specific pull or boss battle. This even before when 'crap happens' and a group is pulling out of a less than ideal situation.

Maybe it's best to cut to the chase. Please enlighten me as the only time or time(s) inner fire (or its morphs) are properly used. Please be specific, as I want to make sure I slot it and use it at only those times. I only wish to be a 'proper' tank...when I am playing my tankers.

UrQuan · November 2016

Kidly wrote: »

I'm an inner fire magicka heal tank. Is it my job to debuff or when I'm running dungeons can I just leave it to one of my 3 dps that I'm supporting with buffs and heals?

If you're heal-tanking then I'd say you should debuff if and only if it doesn't interfere with your primary tanking and healing duties. When you're set up to do both support roles so that you can have 3 DPS, you don't need to bring as much to either support role as a dedicated tank or healer would. You just need to do the primary jobs of those 2 roles. Hold aggro, control the fight, keep people alive, and throw out whatever buffs you can. Everything else is gravy.

Tonnopesce · November 2016

cbaudersub17_ESO wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

cbaudersub17_ESO wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

cbaudersub17_ESO wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Tanks should always use Pierce unless they need to be ranged. So the tank is wrong when it comes to the matter of tank gameplay.

Uhm...I hate to break it to you; but other reasons exist for not using (or preferentially avoiding use of) puncture (and its morphs) as a tank.

If you are talking about the elemental drain issue, that problem has been long, long, long solved.

Not one of the reasons I was thinking of, but good to know.

These reasons, tell me all about them.

So how does this work? I list two or maybe three things then you say I'm right; or do you try shooting hole in my challenge to your use of "always" (one exception noted). No mention of group composition, no mention particular tank build, no mention of content, no mention of specific pull or boss battle. This even before when 'crap happens' and a group is pulling out of a less than ideal situation.

Maybe it's best to cut to the chase. Please enlighten me as the only time or time(s) inner fire (or its morphs) are properly used. Please be specific, as I want to make sure I slot it and use it at only those times. I only wish to be a 'proper' tank...when I am playing my tankers.

Ranged taunt?

WalksonGraves · November 2016

cbaudersub17_ESO wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

cbaudersub17_ESO wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

cbaudersub17_ESO wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Tanks should always use Pierce unless they need to be ranged. So the tank is wrong when it comes to the matter of tank gameplay.

Uhm...I hate to break it to you; but other reasons exist for not using (or preferentially avoiding use of) puncture (and its morphs) as a tank.

If you are talking about the elemental drain issue, that problem has been long, long, long solved.

Not one of the reasons I was thinking of, but good to know.

These reasons, tell me all about them.

So how does this work? I list two or maybe three things then you say I'm right; or do you try shooting hole in my challenge to your use of "always" (one exception noted). No mention of group composition, no mention particular tank build, no mention of content, no mention of specific pull or boss battle. This even before when 'crap happens' and a group is pulling out of a less than ideal situation.

Maybe it's best to cut to the chase. Please enlighten me as the only time or time(s) inner fire (or its morphs) are properly used. Please be specific, as I want to make sure I slot it and use it at only those times. I only wish to be a 'proper' tank...when I am playing my tankers.

Inner fire is a backbar skill for pulling adds off of dps/healer. It's too expensive for spam and the secondary effect is worthless. You aren't a tank if you can't hang within melee range of a boss.

SolarCat02 · November 2016

Inner fire is great for bosses that teleport frequently (ranged taunt to maintain aggro then pierce armor when I get close again), quickly grabbing the attention of stationary miniboss adds that spawn around a boss fight (gargoyles during Lord Warden fight for example), pulling aggro off the healer and big adds off the dps, keeping attention of ranged bosses when other adds are involved (examples, High Kinlord Rilis when also tanking Daedroths, Nerien'eth when also holding the wraiths going for the gold key, etc). It's good to have a different resource taunt as a last resort to rely on in the rare case stamina is low at the wrong time. I also throw it out sometimes if I don't think the rest of the team are hitting synergies, I can quickly find out my answer after a taunt or three.

Pierce Armor should be applied whenever possible, no arguments there. Inner Fire is still a strong tool to have.

cbaudersub17_ESO · November 2016

@Tonnopesce

Tonnopesce wrote: »

Ranged taunt?

I use the Inner Rage morph of Inner Fire. A magicka-based taunt the happens to have ranged ability.

@WalksonGraves

WalksonGraves wrote: »

Inner fire is a backbar skill for pulling adds off of dps/healer. It's too expensive for spam and the secondary effect is worthless. You aren't a tank if you can't hang within melee range of a boss.

Who said anything about being outside melee range of a boss?

Taunt spamming? Really?

@Giles.floydub17_ESO "for the most part" does not equal 'always'.

Dubhliam · November 2016

Tryxus wrote: »

I have a Magicka Sap Tank, and he thinks that guy's an idiot

I got a mag Dragonknight tank, a mag Nightblade tank and a mag Templar tank/healer.

They all think that guy is an idiot.

Teridaxus · November 2016

And then there are sword and shield "dps" which slot puncture and chances are very high that the guy doesn't even speak english in the eu server.

Seriously, everytime i see a light attack spammer or people who queue up as wrong role, they don't seem to be able to speak any common european language on top of it.

Alucardo · November 2016

Dubhliam wrote: »

Tryxus wrote: »

I have a Magicka Sap Tank, and he thinks that guy's an idiot

I got a mag Dragonknight tank, a mag Nightblade tank and a mag Templar tank/healer.

They all think that guy is an idiot.

I've got an argonian stamina sorcerer hybrid tank and I think I'm an idiot

Tonnopesce · November 2016

cbaudersub17_ESO wrote: »

@Tonnopesce

Tonnopesce wrote: »

Ranged taunt?

I use the Inner Rage morph of Inner Fire. A magicka-based taunt the happens to have ranged ability.

@WalksonGraves

WalksonGraves wrote: »

Inner fire is a backbar skill for pulling adds off of dps/healer. It's too expensive for spam and the secondary effect is worthless. You aren't a tank if you can't hang within melee range of a boss.

Who said anything about being outside melee range of a boss?

Taunt spamming? Really?

@Giles.floydub17_ESO "for the most part" does not equal 'always'.

Now i have to ask...
Why not Both?

Usually i always have piece armor in my front-bar and inner rage in my back bar.

Tonnopesce · November 2016

Alucardo wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

Tryxus wrote: »

I have a Magicka Sap Tank, and he thinks that guy's an idiot

I got a mag Dragonknight tank, a mag Nightblade tank and a mag Templar tank/healer.

They all think that guy is an idiot.

I've got an argonian stamina sorcerer hybrid tank and I think I'm an idiot

Lololololol

SnubbS · November 2016

If you're pugging 4man vet dungeons then a 70k health Blazingshield tank is actually amazing.

cbaudersub17_ESO · November 2016

Tonnopesce wrote: »

cbaudersub17_ESO wrote: »

@Tonnopesce

Tonnopesce wrote: »

Ranged taunt?

I use the Inner Rage morph of Inner Fire. A magicka-based taunt the happens to have ranged ability.

@WalksonGraves

WalksonGraves wrote: »

Inner fire is a backbar skill for pulling adds off of dps/healer. It's too expensive for spam and the secondary effect is worthless. You aren't a tank if you can't hang within melee range of a boss.

Who said anything about being outside melee range of a boss?

Taunt spamming? Really?

@Giles.floydub17_ESO "for the most part" does not equal 'always'.

Now i have to ask...
Why not Both?

Usually i always have piece armor in my front-bar and inner rage in my back bar.

Actually, I generically load-out both in the bread-n-butter build (one on either bar, as you). On this build I will vary skills depending on the encounter; and the s/b taunt is not immune to removal if the encounter will benefit more from another skill.

I also have 'fun' variations of armor/weapon/skill load-outs for those times when the content is more friendly to this type of setup and/or I am rolling with regulars. The back-bar in this setup is usually still tanking-oriented, but the undaunted morph is more suitable for the resource pool allocation.