vMSA Hard Mode!

Swomp23 · November 2016

So, first things first, I didn't run vMSA yet. I wanted to wait until I was at least CP300 or something (I'm at 210 right now), but with the event next week, I want to give it a try.

Anyway, that's not the subject of this poll. By doing some research on the forums, I found that the biggest difficulty of the vMSA wasn't the Arena itself, it was the stupid RNG that gives you crap weapons. I read countless posts of people having run it over 100, 200, even 500 times without getting the right weapon in sharpened. In my opinion, those people definitely deserve that damn weapon they want.
I've read other countless posts proposing a token system. While I absolutely support this idea, where after x runs (10, 30, 50, wathever) you can exchange those tokens for the weapon you want, it seems that ZOS doesn't like it (for reasons... Wrobel reasons).
I also understand that ZOS wants to make you work hard to get those BiS weapons. And since they are so much more powerful than other weapons (for stam, at least), they want you to work REALLY hard. And they're right. About the working hard part. Not the 500 runs without getting anything good part.

So I thought of something else. Something a bit crazy. Add a third difficulty the MSA. Name it Vet MSA Hard Mode. Make it so stupidly hard (like double the hp on every damn mob in there, make them hit even harder, wathever, I don't know) that if you can actually complete it, you deserve to chose wathever weapon you want in the trait you want. There. A system that makes you WORK hard to get what you want, not mindlessly grind run after run. Because those 500 runs guys are so good now they can almost do it with their eyes closed, they're not even working hard anymore, they just endure the pain, praying RNGesus.

So, what do you guys think?

LEGENDARYYY · November 2016

Yeah, this would be interesting and more meaningful

Count me in.

ZOS_PeterT · November 2016

We have moved this thread to: Dungeons, Trials & Arenas

Strider_Roshin · November 2016

Yeah, this would be interesting and more meaningful

Just no new titles. I'd hate to get a more difficult version of flawless conqueror.

Trublz · November 2016

I agree there should be a hard mode. But they definitely should not double the health and power of mobs. Maybe increase by 50% of current stats at most.
And giving us our choice of weapon would never happen. But they could give us 2 weapons or a already gold weapon.. That would be somewhat on par with the current hard modes of dungeons and trials

Trublz · November 2016

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Just no new titles. I'd hate to get a more difficult version of flawless conqueror.

New title.. "Godly"

Soleya · November 2016

I think there should be a 3rd difficulty, but current vet should be the hard mode, and vet should be somewhere between normal and current vet.

The difficulty difference between the two is unbelievable. And doing the normal doesn't prepare you at all for vet. The mechanics like the the spinning blades on stage 2, electrified water on stage 3, and others you can just ignore and stand in them. The poison plants on stage 7 you have a few seconds to purify on normal, but in vet you're dead before you can move 2 steps.

Increasing health of mobs just makes killing them take longer which in my opinion means longer and more boring content. And increasing damage just makes everything a oneshot, since many of the mobs already hit for one shots, or near it. 8-12k damage per hit already.

The hardest thing about the arena is beating it the first time, and figuring out why you keep dying over and over to things that didn't hurt you in the normal.

Really the simplest solution would either be a token system, or a key you get to open a chest. Each chest contains a particular item. Want a bow, open the bow chest. Want a staff, go to the destro chest. Similar to how undaunted chests work.

Qbiken · November 2016

No, I think everyone should grind through vMSA countless times and rely on luck to get what they want

I took the 2nd option because no one else did

Mic1007 · November 2016

Yeah, this would be interesting and more meaningful

Why not? If they want it that bad, this will ensure they deserve it.

f047ys3v3n · November 2016

You will be surprised when you get in there. vMA is very hard indeed despite what the very few with 100+ clears that might be able to run in blindfolded have to say. It is not just a beefed up vet pledge hard mode or really even on par with trials. It is true that dps check in vMA is much lower than on some of the trials such as vAA hard mode (basically just a tank and dps check) or vMoL hard mode (plenty of mechanics with that dps check) but it has more mechanics than any of them.

The last fight alone, and it does stand alone in difficulty, has the following usually or always fatal if missed mechanics:
1) periodic skull roll dodge or block
2) periodic boss interrupt after substantial transport
3) sheild, sigial, etc gaurd burn down phase
4) necrotic spear avoidance
5) white ghost avoidance
6) upstairs moving wall eclipse
7) gold ghost capture
8) boss proximity aoe blast if you get to close

In addition to these there are adds to deal with, a high incoming background damage per second, a moderate dps check, and a few stuns. Given the moderate dps check it might actually be possible for players to do vMA with mobs of double health however, if you did create a hard mode with good RNG the irony would be that those who could complete it would likely have to already have the weapons as, the largest reason many have an easy time, is the huge boost that particularly stam weapons give to dps. To put it simply, it is not the dps check that typically kills people in vMA, it is the mechanics and the very high incoming background damage.

All that being said, there are some people that are having too easy a time in vMA and an extreme mode might be fun for them. I am sure they would like a more exclusive title or skin. I wouldn't lock the RNG behind that though, especially since you probably need to already have the weapons to do it. Really, the weapons should just be made attainable for those who complete 5-10 runs for average acquisition of exactly the weapon and trait you want should be the max through either a token or slanted rng system. Most players who have done vMA sadly do not have the weapons they want. RNG actually dictates that even most players with 100 completes don't. At this point, ironically, most of the completes are people who do have the weapons and run for prestige, weapons for alt toons, and out of habbit. Most of those who don't have the weapons have given up running it regularly as it is just too painful to get the D every time at the end. Honestly, I know plenty of folks with 100 completes who don't even bother anymore as well as many who rage quit ESO after they just got the D one too many times and were so pissed off that their buddies had the good stuff and they were still grinding that miserable place with no love.

Always, remember, very, very few players have ever completed vMA. Far less than half that have done, say, vSO hard mode. It is still pretty exclusive. Most just try to hide the fact that they have not gotten it done. Some, quite a lot actually, have also had others run vMA on their account so that it looks like they completed. It is hard content unless you are in Mundus or Hodor.

DannyLV702 · November 2016

Yeah, this would be interesting and more meaningful

Pls yes

NordSwordnBoard · November 2016

veteran MaelStrom Arena = vMSA

Veteran Maelstrom Arena = VMA

Maelstrom is one word

Nerdman9 · November 2016

Yeah, this would be interesting and more meaningful

This is a great idea. Once you complete it the first time it just gets easier and easier. A new challenge would bring new life back to the arena. Bragging rights, maybe a way to get an even better score, better loot system, new titles (why not, something to work for). All 12 man trials have normal, vet and vetHM, why not vMA. Need a challenge or things just end up getting boring.

Tyrion87 · November 2016

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

veteran MaelStrom Arena = vMSA

Veteran Maelstrom Arena = VMA

Maelstrom is one word

It's still better than malestorm ;-)

nordsavage · November 2016

NO < just no without your added reasons. Your options are limited in your poll and like most others they are the OP strong-arming their agenda with choices that have caveats instead of simple yes/no/maybe choices. They will never let you choose your weapons and trait. This would only lead to a more time and resource consuming version for the same lopsided loot tables, there clearly is not an equal chance for all weapons and traits. I would rather just see the next arena for the third skill in weapon slots. Hopefully not another solo run as it gets boring by yourself in vMA. A hardmode vMA will be just as boring and more tedious in a very short time frame.

RebornV3x · November 2016

You're f'ing crazy man, vMSA is already hard enough like that

doing solo content in an MMO for BiS weapons is dumb as it is. Its time for new group content and trials that give BiS weapons VMA is cool but having it give out must have weapons is dumb.

KingYogi415 · November 2016

None of this matters because 99% of people under 450cp have no chance.

Kaizokugari · November 2016

No, I think everyone should grind through vMSA countless times and rely on luck to get what they want

I voted no because I like a realistic universe. And realism implies that not everyone gets what he deserves with exactly the same amount of work, which is what happens in real life too. For me, giving people the absolute choice for the drop introduces a non realistic deus ex machina, the genie that grants the worthy hardcore TESO player his ultimate craving. Sure, the harder the content gets, the bigger rewards one should get, but I do believe the magic moment when you get your weapon in your Xth run, is really, really special. Some might get it on the 100th, on the 200th, on the 1000th or maybe even on the 1st , but if you are really dedicated and if you really long for this weapon, it is bound to drop in someday.

Swomp23 · November 2016

Yeah, this would be interesting and more meaningful

Thanks everyone for your input! Except for the troll that is arguing about how to spell MSA (I'll continue to write it this way, thank you very much), all you guys had great arguments, for or against.

While I don't agree to people saying that solo content isn't fun, I can understand some people don't like it. I always preferred solo games, and having the Arena to test you and only you is the best skill check a game can have IMO. If you fail, it's because of your errors, not the group's. If you succeed, it's because you deserve it, not because some OP player helped you.

@f047ys3v3n Very good point there, that only ppl that already have MSA weapons could complete hard mode. May be the fatal flaw in my genius plan

@nordsavage What do you mean, I didn't give you enough options, man? Hell, I even gave you the option to call me downright crazy, lol. But why do you say they would never let us chose weapons and traits? Don't you think that if you earn it through a spuer hard arena, you should deserve it?

Anyway, take care y'all!

jakeedmundson · November 2016

Kaizokugari wrote: »

I voted no because I like a realistic universe. And realism implies that not everyone gets what he deserves with exactly the same amount of work, which is what happens in real life too. For me, giving people the absolute choice for the drop introduces a non realistic deus ex machina, the genie that grants the worthy hardcore TESO player his ultimate craving. Sure, the harder the content gets, the bigger rewards one should get, but I do believe the magic moment when you get your weapon in your Xth run, is really, really special. Some might get it on the 100th, on the 200th, on the 1000th or maybe even on the 1st , but if you are really dedicated and if you really long for this weapon, it is bound to drop in someday.

Associating "real" with a fantasy game people play to escape "real" worlds situations....doesn't really make sense. A game like this can't base it's item drops on something like... "well life isn't fair... so either move on (keep playing other content) or commit suicide (drop eso)"

and btw (bold)... no that's not how these drops work... there is too much diversity and the REAL concept here is that many people will NEVER get what they are looking for... the people that already have them beat maelstrom a dozen times BEFORE the DB patch when drops were much more reasonable.... there was a 33% chance to get a sharpened weapon... and a 66% chance to get a useful dps trait. even with the 50% drop chance overall for a weapon, the rates were WAYYYYY better than they are right now... its abysmal.

Kaizokugari · November 2016

No, I think everyone should grind through vMSA countless times and rely on luck to get what they want

jakeedmundson wrote: »

Kaizokugari wrote: »

I voted no because I like a realistic universe. And realism implies that not everyone gets what he deserves with exactly the same amount of work, which is what happens in real life too. For me, giving people the absolute choice for the drop introduces a non realistic deus ex machina, the genie that grants the worthy hardcore TESO player his ultimate craving. Sure, the harder the content gets, the bigger rewards one should get, but I do believe the magic moment when you get your weapon in your Xth run, is really, really special. Some might get it on the 100th, on the 200th, on the 1000th or maybe even on the 1st , but if you are really dedicated and if you really long for this weapon, it is bound to drop in someday.

Associating "real" with a fantasy game people play to escape "real" worlds situations....doesn't really make sense. A game like this can't base it's item drops on something like... "well life isn't fair... so either move on (keep playing other content) or commit suicide (drop eso)"

and btw (bold)... no that's not how these drops work... there is too much diversity and the REAL concept here is that many people will NEVER get what they are looking for... the people that already have them beat maelstrom a dozen times BEFORE the DB patch when drops were much more reasonable.... there was a 33% chance to get a sharpened weapon... and a 66% chance to get a useful dps trait. even with the 50% drop chance overall for a weapon, the rates were WAYYYYY better than they are right now... its abysmal.

Realistic is not one-on-one equivalent to real. Realistic is something that looks real but is not necessarily real. Most people that I know off tend to like escaping reality to, at least, realistic gaming universes. For me the "choose whatever weapon you want in whatever trait you want", as proposed from OP, is a huge universe-breaker, but that could very well be attributed to personal flavor, which I can accept of course.

I haven't worked the maths of course, so if anyone's done so, I'd totally like to delve into them, but I believe never is a little bit harsh. For you 3-4 months might seem way too long to get your favorite drop, for me 1-2 years would be ok, for someone else 2 weeks might even be way too long. I've personally seen many streamers (Kodi is one for example) getting top tier items and traits and never complain about something "never" dropping e.t.c. so I guess it's all down to how much time is one willing to spend on the game.

jakeedmundson · November 2016

Kaizokugari wrote: »

jakeedmundson wrote: »

Kaizokugari wrote: »

I voted no because I like a realistic universe. And realism implies that not everyone gets what he deserves with exactly the same amount of work, which is what happens in real life too. For me, giving people the absolute choice for the drop introduces a non realistic deus ex machina, the genie that grants the worthy hardcore TESO player his ultimate craving. Sure, the harder the content gets, the bigger rewards one should get, but I do believe the magic moment when you get your weapon in your Xth run, is really, really special. Some might get it on the 100th, on the 200th, on the 1000th or maybe even on the 1st , but if you are really dedicated and if you really long for this weapon, it is bound to drop in someday.

Associating "real" with a fantasy game people play to escape "real" worlds situations....doesn't really make sense. A game like this can't base it's item drops on something like... "well life isn't fair... so either move on (keep playing other content) or commit suicide (drop eso)"

and btw (bold)... no that's not how these drops work... there is too much diversity and the REAL concept here is that many people will NEVER get what they are looking for... the people that already have them beat maelstrom a dozen times BEFORE the DB patch when drops were much more reasonable.... there was a 33% chance to get a sharpened weapon... and a 66% chance to get a useful dps trait. even with the 50% drop chance overall for a weapon, the rates were WAYYYYY better than they are right now... its abysmal.

Realistic is not one-on-one equivalent to real. Realistic is something that looks real but is not necessarily real. Most people that I know off tend to like escaping reality to, at least, realistic gaming universes. For me the "choose whatever weapon you want in whatever trait you want", as proposed from OP, is a huge universe-breaker, but that could very well be attributed to personal flavor, which I can accept of course.

I haven't worked the maths of course, so if anyone's done so, I'd totally like to delve into them, but I believe never is a little bit harsh. For you 3-4 months might seem way too long to get your favorite drop, for me 1-2 years would be ok, for someone else 2 weeks might even be way too long. I've personally seen many streamers (Kodi is one for example) getting top tier items and traits and never complain about something "never" dropping e.t.c. so I guess it's all down to how much time is one willing to spend on the game.

So being able to choose a weapon after the hardest content in the game is universe breaking for you... but binding that item to a players account isn't? REALISM would be that we could do what we want with rewards we worked hard to earn.

and yes ... months to get ONE item is too long.... especially when you do that ridiculous arena once, twice, or however many times EVERY day and still don't get the one item you're looking for.... I honestly.... can... not.... believe that people blindly accept this concept and even DEFEND it. If you can calmly run vMA every day for a year (even a month!) and then tell me, "eh... its ok if i don't get something worth while".... i suggest you visit a therapist. No one wants to be in this place that long. It kills the game.

There has to be some stopping point... some goal... some limit. You can't just say... "tough $**7, i guess you don't get one after all your hard work because... rng reasons".
Life isn't fair... thats true. but this is a game and it should be fair to each player... if it wasn't meant to be fair, then zos wouldn't try to "balance" everything for pvp reasons either. vMA is a contradiction to player fairness.

Kaizokugari · November 2016

No, I think everyone should grind through vMSA countless times and rely on luck to get what they want

So being able to choose a weapon after the hardest content in the game is universe breaking for you... but binding that item to a players account isn't? REALISM would be that we could do what we want with rewards we worked hard to earn.

Yep. I don't think it is realistic for e.g. the top player in EU to farm Sharpened Maelstrom Bows and sell them to 50cp guys.

I also can't picture (lol example) Sauron dying from, let's say, a Legolas arrow and after that a text bubble coming up asking our beloved elf what kind of weapon does he wish.

and yes ... months to get ONE item is too long.... especially when you do that ridiculous arena once, twice, or however many times EVERY day and still don't get the one item you're looking for.... I honestly.... can... not.... believe that people blindly accept this concept and even DEFEND it. If you can calmly run vMA every day for a year (even a month!) and then tell me, "eh... its ok if i don't get something worth while".... i suggest you visit a therapist. No one wants to be in this place that long. It kills the game.

Less than months greatly reduces the "replayability" of the game. If I could get a Sharpened Maelstrom Bow in less than one month I don't even know why should I keep playing the game. But that's just me. I'll consider the therapist offer though.

There has to be some stopping point... some goal... some limit. You can't just say... "tough $**7, i guess you don't get one after all your hard work because... rng reasons".
Life isn't fair... thats true. but this is a game and it should be fair to each player... if it wasn't meant to be fair, then zos wouldn't try to "balance" everything for pvp reasons either. vMA is a contradiction to player fairness.

I don't consider the RNG thing to be perfectly random, not even close to a decent pseudorandom system. I don't even say vMA is good or fair or perfect e.t.c. But do I think the answer is to put, whoever is up to that, on a TESO Navy Seal test of hardcorness just so he can auto-order his perfect weapon? Nah, I don't think so.

Doctordarkspawn · November 2016

You're f'ing crazy man, vMSA is already hard enough like that

You cray man.

Apherius · November 2016

Yeah, this would be interesting and more meaningful

Yeah ! good idea man , but with a new title " Flawless destroyer " or something else ,and with a a polymorphous of Voriak solkyn a the end :P or a skin of ... i d'ont know ! something ^^"

Snit · November 2016

You're f'ing crazy man, vMSA is already hard enough like that

Alternate solution: Token system.

Izaki · November 2016

Yeah, this would be interesting and more meaningful

I think that if each weapon was a unique item (meaning 1 can be on your account at any given time) would solve most issues. On the otherhand you would be able to have identical weapons on alts, but its not too much of an issue considering you can just bank and swap.

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