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What are crown crates? And why all the fuss, are they P2W?
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driosketch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
I'm just going to interrupt you here. Whether or not you personally care about trial leader boards or PvP, they are legitimate aspects of the game. And even if you don't think the weekly reward or "bragging rights" have value, you can't deny unbalancing crown and crafted items would upset this part of the game.driosketch wrote: »
There are leader boards, as well as the general sense of competition between players.
How does one player having the most powerful gear or consumables change how another player consumes the game?I do not understand the concept of Pay to Win in an MMO either. Since every player is playing their own story/game, how does someone else even beat you. If someone Pays-to-Win in an MMO, the only player they can hurt is themselves.
Even in a PvP situation, consider if Jon the Cat created a character this day, purchased an "insta-level" next day and is involve in a PvP match on the third day, how does that change anything? Other than bringing one more player into PvP.
You're judging p2w possibilites too lightly.
Don't think in terms of 'insta-level' tokens, think in terms of the most powerful gear, the most powerful consumables being cash shop only. Things that give you a huge combat advantage in terms of stats. That's p2w.
These two sounds more like a vanity (elitist) issue than a broken game.
Personally, ...
That said, we aren't looking at exclusive top gear in the shop pay to win. It's more an annoying disruption like "here's a new recipe/solvent/flower to farm because we made the crown stuff stronger than the current crafted stuff you have stockpiled."Edited by driosketch on November 1, 2016 11:11PMMain: Drio Azul ~ DC, Redguard, Healer/Magicka Templar ~ NA-PC
●The Psijic Order●The Sidekick Order●Great House Hlaalu●Bal-Busters●1 -
shadoza✭✭✭✭driosketch wrote: »
I'm just going to interrupt you here. Whether or not you personally care about trial leader boards or PvP, they are legitimate aspects of the game. And even if you don't think the weekly reward or "bragging rights" have value, you can't deny unbalancing crown and crafted items would upset this part of the game.driosketch wrote: »
There are leader boards, as well as the general sense of competition between players.
How does one player having the most powerful gear or consumables change how another player consumes the game?I do not understand the concept of Pay to Win in an MMO either. Since every player is playing their own story/game, how does someone else even beat you. If someone Pays-to-Win in an MMO, the only player they can hurt is themselves.
Even in a PvP situation, consider if Jon the Cat created a character this day, purchased an "insta-level" next day and is involve in a PvP match on the third day, how does that change anything? Other than bringing one more player into PvP.
You're judging p2w possibilites too lightly.
Don't think in terms of 'insta-level' tokens, think in terms of the most powerful gear, the most powerful consumables being cash shop only. Things that give you a huge combat advantage in terms of stats. That's p2w.
These two sounds more like a vanity (elitist) issue than a broken game.
Personally, ...
That said, we aren't looking at exclusive top gear in the shop pay to win. It's more an annoying disruption like "here's to a new recipe/solvent/flower to farm because we made the crown stuff stronger than the current crafted stuff you have stockpiled."
I recently purchased an item from the store that gives me a greater resource boost than I could create and I do appreciate that it is available. Perhaps, I would see an issue if I was an end-gamer who has maxed their skills and competes for attention and bragging rights. Currently, I am having a difficult time see a loot crate as a game-breaker.0 -
Callous2208✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭driosketch wrote: »
I'm just going to interrupt you here. Whether or not you personally care about trial leader boards or PvP, they are legitimate aspects of the game. And even if you don't think the weekly reward or "bragging rights" have value, you can't deny unbalancing crown and crafted items would upset this part of the game.driosketch wrote: »
There are leader boards, as well as the general sense of competition between players.
How does one player having the most powerful gear or consumables change how another player consumes the game?I do not understand the concept of Pay to Win in an MMO either. Since every player is playing their own story/game, how does someone else even beat you. If someone Pays-to-Win in an MMO, the only player they can hurt is themselves.
Even in a PvP situation, consider if Jon the Cat created a character this day, purchased an "insta-level" next day and is involve in a PvP match on the third day, how does that change anything? Other than bringing one more player into PvP.
You're judging p2w possibilites too lightly.
Don't think in terms of 'insta-level' tokens, think in terms of the most powerful gear, the most powerful consumables being cash shop only. Things that give you a huge combat advantage in terms of stats. That's p2w.
These two sounds more like a vanity (elitist) issue than a broken game.
Personally, ...
That said, we aren't looking at exclusive top gear in the shop pay to win. It's more an annoying disruption like "here's to a new recipe/solvent/flower to farm because we made the crown stuff stronger than the current crafted stuff you have stockpiled."
I recently purchased an item from the store that gives me a greater resource boost than I could create and I do appreciate that it is available. Perhaps, I would see an issue if I was an end-gamer who has maxed their skills and competes for attention and bragging rights. Currently, I am having a difficult time see a loot crate as a game-breaker.
It's all relative to what your style is, but it's not fair to write off other playstyles or things people see as important in the game, as silly or a vanity/elitist item. I don't believe any purchasable item should ever be better than what one can work towards creating using the games systems. Time and effort over cash if you will. If it's the other way around, it kind of defeats the purpose of even using said systems. Why craft potions if real money ones are better? Why craft gear if some day the ones you can pay for are equal or better? Why even play the game and level these skills? Why even have these skills in the game? To accept this is actually contradictory to what you were saying. If within the game you can "buy" your way to the best stuff, all that's left is to show off for attention and bragging rights. Be it in pvp, pve, or to just show how much disposable income you have.
Honestly though, as we've discussed earlier, I'm more concerned with the direction things like this may lead than any blatant p2w items that could be put in them.3 -
JKorr✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I do not understand the concept of Pay to Win in an MMO either. Since every player is playing their own story/game, how does someone else even beat you. If someone Pays-to-Win in an MMO, the only player they can hurt is themselves.
Even in a PvP situation, consider if Jon the Cat created a character this day, purchased an "insta-level" next day and is involve in a PvP match on the third day, how does that change anything? Other than bringing one more player into PvP.
You're judging p2w possibilites too lightly.
Don't think in terms of 'insta-level' tokens, think in terms of the most powerful gear, the most powerful consumables being cash shop only. Things that give you a huge combat advantage in terms of stats. That's p2w.
I still wonder: How is that play-to-win? How does one player having the most powerful gear or consumables change how another player consumes the game?
In MMOs (at least those that are not co-operative based) a player can choose who they interact with. Are we concerned that powerful items will be presented outside out personal reach? Are we festering over the concept that someone might have something that we don't or cannot?
I guess it depends.
If the pvp people aren't trading the emperor's crown back and forth because cheating/bribery/conspiracy, you do have to be somewhat competent at pvp to get there. One person spends like crazy and eventually gets all the powerful gear and buffed food/drink. You, who are also doing pvp, have normal gear and normal food/drink. Even if you're good, he can take more damage/deal more damage than you, and he can last longer because his buffs/boosts last longer than yours. He's going to be emperor, and you aren't going to be able to take it away from him because his gamble box drops were better than yours. If you really want to be emperor/clear maelstrom/do whatever trial is currently the hardest, you're going to really struggle while the rngesus box whale strolls through the content and laughs at you.
There are pvp players who really do care that someone beat them. Those players will mind that someone has better gear than what they can get in-game.1 -
KingMagaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭I just seen another topic where a former subscriber was emailed saying buy 3 months sub get 1 month free. Another sign of financial problems, to me anyway.
On the topic of boxes - ~9 months ago Z0$ employee stated to a question posed by a player of ESO: "We have no plans of adding gamble boxes". Now gamble boxes are here.
Once they generate little cash because they shafted players on the PTS and the chance to play with a new cosmetic on a broken game wears on people, better and more substantial rewards will be added, small at first, then better items added weighted against the increased revenue.
Take the current EXP potions debate also. Buy a potion thats better than you can make. But if you wear all training gear you come out better. Fact remains, when Z0$ introduce blue crown store food @ +6k Health/+6K stam and everyone is in uproar on P2W, the argument will be made sure EXP potions were better than you can make +(any other amount of intelligent small upgraded crown store items).
TESO is surely going P2W. Its only a matter of time. The amount of unaddressed issues grows with every new rushed out DLC, lack of enforcement of their own TOS, lack of transparency on anything, way too many maintenance's then a follow up emergency maintenance to either rollback or fix mistakes made in first maintenance and for me personally, need more Z0$ on forums. Cheating topic is blatantly avoided by Z0$, questions tagging employees in looking for resolution go ignored, it is truly a disgrace.
I also cant pinpoint whether this is all caused by lack of professionalism, incompetence or simply a lack of funds.
They've offered the deal on the sub buy x months get one before. Usually when they're trying to convince someone to keep their sub.
I found the quote and posted it in another thread. Gina never said there would be no rng boxes. What was said was "We have no plans to add locked rng boxes." And they haven't and, at this point, from what's been said and shown on the pts, they won't. The rng boxes aren't locked. You just have to buy them and you can open them. No locks. No keys. At least so far.
Technicalities and semantics, true. They haven't lied. There are no locked rng boxes being planned...so far.
The intention behind the question posed was gamble boxes (Whether they come locked, gold, silver, big small etc) and to be fair they are 'locked' behind a paywall/crown purchase/real money thus segregating the player base more in time to come.0 -
shadoza✭✭✭✭Callous2208 wrote: »driosketch wrote: »
I'm just going to interrupt you here. Whether or not you personally care about trial leader boards or PvP, they are legitimate aspects of the game. And even if you don't think the weekly reward or "bragging rights" have value, you can't deny unbalancing crown and crafted items would upset this part of the game.driosketch wrote: »
There are leader boards, as well as the general sense of competition between players.
How does one player having the most powerful gear or consumables change how another player consumes the game?I do not understand the concept of Pay to Win in an MMO either. Since every player is playing their own story/game, how does someone else even beat you. If someone Pays-to-Win in an MMO, the only player they can hurt is themselves.
Even in a PvP situation, consider if Jon the Cat created a character this day, purchased an "insta-level" next day and is involve in a PvP match on the third day, how does that change anything? Other than bringing one more player into PvP.
You're judging p2w possibilites too lightly.
Don't think in terms of 'insta-level' tokens, think in terms of the most powerful gear, the most powerful consumables being cash shop only. Things that give you a huge combat advantage in terms of stats. That's p2w.
These two sounds more like a vanity (elitist) issue than a broken game.
Personally, ...
That said, we aren't looking at exclusive top gear in the shop pay to win. It's more an annoying disruption like "here's to a new recipe/solvent/flower to farm because we made the crown stuff stronger than the current crafted stuff you have stockpiled."
I recently purchased an item from the store that gives me a greater resource boost than I could create and I do appreciate that it is available. Perhaps, I would see an issue if I was an end-gamer who has maxed their skills and competes for attention and bragging rights. Currently, I am having a difficult time see a loot crate as a game-breaker.
It's all relative to what your style is, but it's not fair to write off other playstyles or things people see as important in the game, as silly or a vanity/elitist item. I don't believe any purchasable item should ever be better than what one can work towards creating using the games systems. Time and effort over cash if you will. If it's the other way around, it kind of defeats the purpose of even using said systems. Why craft potions if real money ones are better? Why craft gear if some day the ones you can pay for are equal or better? Why even play the game and level these skills? Why even have these skills in the game? To accept this is actually contradictory to what you were saying. If within the game you can "buy" your way to the best stuff, all that's left is to show off for attention and bragging rights. Be it in pvp, pve, or to just show how much disposable income you have.
Honestly though, as we've discussed earlier, I'm more concerned with the direction things like this may lead than any blatant p2w items that could be put in them.
I disagree. It does not conflict with what I am saying. I believe you are reading more into the post than what is there.0 -
shadoza✭✭✭✭I do not understand the concept of Pay to Win in an MMO either. Since every player is playing their own story/game, how does someone else even beat you. If someone Pays-to-Win in an MMO, the only player they can hurt is themselves.
Even in a PvP situation, consider if Jon the Cat created a character this day, purchased an "insta-level" next day and is involve in a PvP match on the third day, how does that change anything? Other than bringing one more player into PvP.
You're judging p2w possibilites too lightly.
Don't think in terms of 'insta-level' tokens, think in terms of the most powerful gear, the most powerful consumables being cash shop only. Things that give you a huge combat advantage in terms of stats. That's p2w.
I still wonder: How is that play-to-win? How does one player having the most powerful gear or consumables change how another player consumes the game?
In MMOs (at least those that are not co-operative based) a player can choose who they interact with. Are we concerned that powerful items will be presented outside out personal reach? Are we festering over the concept that someone might have something that we don't or cannot?
I guess it depends.
If the pvp people aren't trading the emperor's crown back and forth because cheating/bribery/conspiracy, you do have to be somewhat competent at pvp to get there. One person spends like crazy and eventually gets all the powerful gear and buffed food/drink. You, who are also doing pvp, have normal gear and normal food/drink. Even if you're good, he can take more damage/deal more damage than you, and he can last longer because his buffs/boosts last longer than yours. He's going to be emperor, and you aren't going to be able to take it away from him because his gamble box drops were better than yours. If you really want to be emperor/clear maelstrom/do whatever trial is currently the hardest, you're going to really struggle while the rngesus box whale strolls through the content and laughs at you.
There are pvp players who really do care that someone beat them. Those players will mind that someone has better gear than what they can get in-game.
In that sense, it is a bother. But we cannot police the way another player plays the game. I really care about playing the story and getting a fair return for it. I understand that power in the hands of some is going to go badly for others.- When I hit a Dolmen I discover it is dominated by leveled CPers and I get nothing in return for my efforts because I am too low to compete with their hitting power.
- I play a quest and a group of leveled CPers ride in, purposely take agro of all the targets, and clear the field where I am playing leaving no targets for me. I do not enjoy walking into a dead field and completing a mission without a challenge so that breaks into my gaming. It wastes my time because I have to wait for all the targets to respawn and hope the band of target-killers are intending on farming the area for any length of time.
- I am fighting the boss in the dungeon and a group of leveled CPers come in and "one-hit" the boss, even when I am obviously engaged in a battle.
Do I think it is fair someone bullies their way through the game. No. I do not. But it is not against the rules so I deal with it. Unhappily deal with it. I deal with it because over-policing a game can break it fast. I do not think it is fair to avoid Crown Crates because some folks might abuse the contents.1 -
JKorr✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I do not understand the concept of Pay to Win in an MMO either. Since every player is playing their own story/game, how does someone else even beat you. If someone Pays-to-Win in an MMO, the only player they can hurt is themselves.
Even in a PvP situation, consider if Jon the Cat created a character this day, purchased an "insta-level" next day and is involve in a PvP match on the third day, how does that change anything? Other than bringing one more player into PvP.
You're judging p2w possibilites too lightly.
Don't think in terms of 'insta-level' tokens, think in terms of the most powerful gear, the most powerful consumables being cash shop only. Things that give you a huge combat advantage in terms of stats. That's p2w.
I still wonder: How is that play-to-win? How does one player having the most powerful gear or consumables change how another player consumes the game?
In MMOs (at least those that are not co-operative based) a player can choose who they interact with. Are we concerned that powerful items will be presented outside out personal reach? Are we festering over the concept that someone might have something that we don't or cannot?
I guess it depends.
If the pvp people aren't trading the emperor's crown back and forth because cheating/bribery/conspiracy, you do have to be somewhat competent at pvp to get there. One person spends like crazy and eventually gets all the powerful gear and buffed food/drink. You, who are also doing pvp, have normal gear and normal food/drink. Even if you're good, he can take more damage/deal more damage than you, and he can last longer because his buffs/boosts last longer than yours. He's going to be emperor, and you aren't going to be able to take it away from him because his gamble box drops were better than yours. If you really want to be emperor/clear maelstrom/do whatever trial is currently the hardest, you're going to really struggle while the rngesus box whale strolls through the content and laughs at you.
There are pvp players who really do care that someone beat them. Those players will mind that someone has better gear than what they can get in-game.
In that sense, it is a bother. But we cannot police the way another player plays the game. I really care about playing the story and getting a fair return for it. I understand that power in the hands of some is going to go badly for others.- When I hit a Dolmen I discover it is dominated by leveled CPers and I get nothing in return for my efforts because I am too low to compete with their hitting power.
- I play a quest and a group of leveled CPers ride in, purposely take agro of all the targets, and clear the field where I am playing leaving no targets for me. I do not enjoy walking into a dead field and completing a mission without a challenge so that breaks into my gaming. It wastes my time because I have to wait for all the targets to respawn and hope the band of target-killers are intending on farming the area for any length of time.
- I am fighting the boss in the dungeon and a group of leveled CPers come in and "one-hit" the boss, even when I am obviously engaged in a battle.
Do I think it is fair someone bullies their way through the game. No. I do not. But it is not against the rules so I deal with it. Unhappily deal with it. I deal with it because over-policing a game can break it fast. I do not think it is fair to avoid Crown Crates because some folks might abuse the contents.
You know, nowhere is anyone saying to "avoid" the scamboxes. Players don't *want* the scamboxes, yes. People have been asking/saying to put the items up for outright sale in the store. Many of us will buy the things. Several of us have been practically begging for the chance to give them our money for an item we want. What we don't want is to buy a box that has dozens of items we don't want and won't use with a slim chance of obtaining what we want.
The "large" items, the apex rewards on the pts, are all cosmetic. People did complain about the drop rate; opening 50-80 crates and not getting an apex reward isn't necessarily good. People complained about the "consumables", the only items you are guaranteed to get every time. So the first reaction ZOS had wasn't to cut the numbers of consumables or eliminate them completely, it was to make them better than what you can make in the game. My personal belief as to why is, is because "laws"; you aren't buying an apex reward, you're buying consumables with a chance at getting other things. No one could complain about or bring legal action against the company because you are getting what you purchased; consumables. So seeing the overwhelmingly negative reaction to the consumables that aren't as strong as what players can make for free, they are going to make the consumables stronger, and maybe throw out a few new recipes so players can make something "similar". If this doesn't convince people to buy more scamboxes because the stuff is better than what you can make in the game, they will add other things that aren't cosmetic. Its already started with the scrolls and the direction they're taking the consumables.
I know I wasn't the only person who said the rngesus crates would be fine with me *if* they also offered the items for outright sale at some point. Exclusive for X weeks/months in the crates, and for sale after. Anyone who wanted to take a chance on getting something early could play with the scamboxes. Anyone who wanted to take a chance on getting the 1200/1800/2400 crown mount for 400 crowns could buy a scambox. BUT the boxes would never be the only source of the items.5 -
Callous2208✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Callous2208 wrote: »driosketch wrote: »
I'm just going to interrupt you here. Whether or not you personally care about trial leader boards or PvP, they are legitimate aspects of the game. And even if you don't think the weekly reward or "bragging rights" have value, you can't deny unbalancing crown and crafted items would upset this part of the game.driosketch wrote: »
There are leader boards, as well as the general sense of competition between players.
How does one player having the most powerful gear or consumables change how another player consumes the game?I do not understand the concept of Pay to Win in an MMO either. Since every player is playing their own story/game, how does someone else even beat you. If someone Pays-to-Win in an MMO, the only player they can hurt is themselves.
Even in a PvP situation, consider if Jon the Cat created a character this day, purchased an "insta-level" next day and is involve in a PvP match on the third day, how does that change anything? Other than bringing one more player into PvP.
You're judging p2w possibilites too lightly.
Don't think in terms of 'insta-level' tokens, think in terms of the most powerful gear, the most powerful consumables being cash shop only. Things that give you a huge combat advantage in terms of stats. That's p2w.
These two sounds more like a vanity (elitist) issue than a broken game.
Personally, ...
That said, we aren't looking at exclusive top gear in the shop pay to win. It's more an annoying disruption like "here's to a new recipe/solvent/flower to farm because we made the crown stuff stronger than the current crafted stuff you have stockpiled."
I recently purchased an item from the store that gives me a greater resource boost than I could create and I do appreciate that it is available. Perhaps, I would see an issue if I was an end-gamer who has maxed their skills and competes for attention and bragging rights. Currently, I am having a difficult time see a loot crate as a game-breaker.
It's all relative to what your style is, but it's not fair to write off other playstyles or things people see as important in the game, as silly or a vanity/elitist item. I don't believe any purchasable item should ever be better than what one can work towards creating using the games systems. Time and effort over cash if you will. If it's the other way around, it kind of defeats the purpose of even using said systems. Why craft potions if real money ones are better? Why craft gear if some day the ones you can pay for are equal or better? Why even play the game and level these skills? Why even have these skills in the game? To accept this is actually contradictory to what you were saying. If within the game you can "buy" your way to the best stuff, all that's left is to show off for attention and bragging rights. Be it in pvp, pve, or to just show how much disposable income you have.
Honestly though, as we've discussed earlier, I'm more concerned with the direction things like this may lead than any blatant p2w items that could be put in them.
I disagree. It does not conflict with what I am saying. I believe you are reading more into the post than what is there.
Perhaps. But all you've really stated this entire time is, "I'm a relatively new player here and in mmos in general. I don't think this affects me due to my personal playstyle. Therefore these things don't bother me and I can't see why they would bother anyone else unless they are an elitist looking to show off." That's just not what it's all about.3 -
Troneon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭It is basically scummy business model of instead of having a fixed price for an item, you throw them behind an RNG Casino Style Gambling Pay Wall riddled with RNG to screw your consumer for as much as you can before they can get the item.....
That is why all the fuss...and I agree with the community, the one's who are not sheeple, that is pure scum idea by ZOS.
Edited by Troneon on November 2, 2016 1:42PMPC EU ADMaster Crafter - Anything you need!!High Elf Magicka Templar Healer/DPS/TankTrials / Dungeons / PVP / Everything5 -
shadoza✭✭✭✭Callous2208 wrote: »Callous2208 wrote: »driosketch wrote: »
I'm just going to interrupt you here. Whether or not you personally care about trial leader boards or PvP, they are legitimate aspects of the game. And even if you don't think the weekly reward or "bragging rights" have value, you can't deny unbalancing crown and crafted items would upset this part of the game.driosketch wrote: »
There are leader boards, as well as the general sense of competition between players.
How does one player having the most powerful gear or consumables change how another player consumes the game?I do not understand the concept of Pay to Win in an MMO either. Since every player is playing their own story/game, how does someone else even beat you. If someone Pays-to-Win in an MMO, the only player they can hurt is themselves.
Even in a PvP situation, consider if Jon the Cat created a character this day, purchased an "insta-level" next day and is involve in a PvP match on the third day, how does that change anything? Other than bringing one more player into PvP.
You're judging p2w possibilites too lightly.
Don't think in terms of 'insta-level' tokens, think in terms of the most powerful gear, the most powerful consumables being cash shop only. Things that give you a huge combat advantage in terms of stats. That's p2w.
These two sounds more like a vanity (elitist) issue than a broken game.
Personally, ...
That said, we aren't looking at exclusive top gear in the shop pay to win. It's more an annoying disruption like "here's to a new recipe/solvent/flower to farm because we made the crown stuff stronger than the current crafted stuff you have stockpiled."
I recently purchased an item from the store that gives me a greater resource boost than I could create and I do appreciate that it is available. Perhaps, I would see an issue if I was an end-gamer who has maxed their skills and competes for attention and bragging rights. Currently, I am having a difficult time see a loot crate as a game-breaker.
It's all relative to what your style is, but it's not fair to write off other playstyles or things people see as important in the game, as silly or a vanity/elitist item. I don't believe any purchasable item should ever be better than what one can work towards creating using the games systems. Time and effort over cash if you will. If it's the other way around, it kind of defeats the purpose of even using said systems. Why craft potions if real money ones are better? Why craft gear if some day the ones you can pay for are equal or better? Why even play the game and level these skills? Why even have these skills in the game? To accept this is actually contradictory to what you were saying. If within the game you can "buy" your way to the best stuff, all that's left is to show off for attention and bragging rights. Be it in pvp, pve, or to just show how much disposable income you have.
Honestly though, as we've discussed earlier, I'm more concerned with the direction things like this may lead than any blatant p2w items that could be put in them.
I disagree. It does not conflict with what I am saying. I believe you are reading more into the post than what is there.
Perhaps. But all you've really stated this entire time is, "I'm a relatively new player here and in mmos in general. I don't think this affects me due to my personal playstyle. Therefore these things don't bother me and I can't see why they would bother anyone else unless they are an elitist looking to show off." That's just not what it's all about.
Where would I have said I am a new player? I have been playing ESO since BETA.
I have read the opposition is focused on the idea that loot crates kill MMOs. I have not see evidence of this. No one has provided factual evidence that loot crates caused a game to fail.
I have read that some believe that the loot crates may provide items that are powerful and not available in game or for direct purchase. Since this is an MMO, I do not understand how the power of another player bothers the function of the game. Some one took the time to explain that unique power items could give one an advantage in the leaderboards. Leader boards are a vanity posting which does not change the way the game is played. So I connect the opposition with elitist. If the opposition to loot crates is not about elitism, then what is it about?0 -
shadoza✭✭✭✭It is basically scummy business model of instead of having a fixed price for an item, you throw them behind an RNG Casino Style Gambling Pay Wall riddled with RNG to screw your consumer for as much as you can before they can get the item.....
That is why all the fuss...and I agree with the community, the one's who are not sheeple, that is pure scum idea by ZOS.
Forgive, but it seems the people who do not want the loot crates are being more sheep-like. Sheep stay with the herd for security. By standing with a large group, the sheep reduces their chance of being attacked by the wolf. It's not a bad plan if the sheep doesn't know what is going on. We are not sheep, we are human and we can think for ourselves.
Loot crates are not a business model. They are a commodity that sells well amongst the casual players. In ESO, loot crates would be like unlocking a treasure box. No one knows what is inside one but we all still open them up hoping for something useful. There isn't always something useful but we continue to unlock and check all the same because there might be something. A loot crate is a treasure box that the consumer can purchase rather than find.1 -
Abeille✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It is basically scummy business model of instead of having a fixed price for an item, you throw them behind an RNG Casino Style Gambling Pay Wall riddled with RNG to screw your consumer for as much as you can before they can get the item.....
That is why all the fuss...and I agree with the community, the one's who are not sheeple, that is pure scum idea by ZOS.
Forgive, but it seems the people who do not want the loot crates are being more sheep-like. Sheep stay with the herd for security. By standing with a large group, the sheep reduces their chance of being attacked by the wolf. It's not a bad plan if the sheep doesn't know what is going on. We are not sheep, we are human and we can think for ourselves.
Loot crates are not a business model. They are a commodity that sells well amongst the casual players. In ESO, loot crates would be like unlocking a treasure box. No one knows what is inside one but we all still open them up hoping for something useful. There isn't always something useful but we continue to unlock and check all the same because there might be something. A loot crate is a treasure box that the consumer can purchase rather than find.
This is innacurate.
Google "RNG Boxes in MMOs" and read the threads and the articles about them. RNG boxes are PRESENTED as a commodity, but they are introduced to become the main source of income of a MMO. Not making content, not releasing expansions - Selling boxes. They are a business model disguised as a "new system".
That's the problem. I want B2P (well, I actually preferred P2P, but that ship has sailed), not F2P + RNG Boxes.
Anyway, if this is your first MMO that had this and you have no previous experience with this transition, I suggest paying attention to what is going to happen on the next months so you can identify it on your next MMOs. Or you could look back on the releases of this year (as I said before, we went from "4 DLCs a year" to "not all DLCs will be as big as Orsinium" and finally to "not all four yearly updates will be DLCs"). Then you can draw your own conclusions instead of accepting what the company tells you, or even what any of us tell you.
About your previous comment, I see that you do not understand what Pay-to-win means due to you not being a competitive person.
Imagine two people with the exact same skill level dueling each other. The exact same. The only difference is that one person bought an item that gave them an edge over the other person. The person who bought the item wins the duel. That's the most basic and simple example of pay-to-win, and it is bad for the health of the game in long term when playing the game isn't what determines the outcome of a competitive activity. I understand that this does not impact your gameplay, and honestly, it doesn't impact mine either because I am not a competitive person. The difference is that I have empathy for people who are competitive people, I put myself in their shoes and I understand that this is absolutely awful for them. And when this happens to a game, competitive people have two options: Embracing the P2W or leaving. None of these options are good for the health of the game in long term.
(Note: The boxes have nothing that I perceive as P2W, even with the more powerful experience scroll, but I saw this happening many times before and I don't have any illusions that it will remain this way)Edited by Abeille on November 2, 2016 6:35PMJust so that everyone knows, my Altmer still can't have black hair. About a dozen of Altmer NPCs in the game have black hair. Just saying.
Meet my characters:Command: Do the thing.
Zadarri, Khajiit Fist of Thalmor: The thing was done, as commanded.
Durza gra-Maghul, Orc blacksmith: The thing was done perfectly, in the most efficient way.
Tegwen, Bosmer troublemaker: You can't prove I didn't do the thing.
Sings-Many-Songs, Argonian fisher: Sure, I'll do the thing... Eventually. Maybe.
Aerindel, Altmer stormcaller: After extensive research, I've come to the conclusion that doing the thing would be a waste of resources.
Liliel, Dunmer pyromancer: Aerindel said I shouldn't do the thing. Something about "resources".
Gyda Snowcaller, Nord cryomancer: I will find a way to do it that won't waste resources and make Aerindel proud of me.
Beatrice Leoriane, Breton vampire: I persuaded someone else into doing the thing. You are welcome, dear.
Sahima, Redguard performer: Doing the thing sounds awfully unpleasant and really not my problem.
Ellaria Valerius, Imperial priestess: I'll pray to the Eight for the thing to be done, if it is Their will.5 -
summitxho✭✭✭
That's the problem. I want B2P (well, I actually preferred P2P, but that ship has sailed), not F2P + RNG Boxes.
Help me understand a bit here, but is ESO not already buy to play? I bought the game in the first place, I buy the DLC, is that not what B2P is?
Also to offer some other insight from a different style of player, if the game was P2P I would never have personally tried it as I do not play enough hours in a week to justify a monthly cost (except now I am a subscriber for the crafting bag which I swore I would never do, way to go ZOS...), I would not be a customer at all, the whole reason I tried it in the first place was not because it was an MMO, but because it was Elder Scrolls and had an in depth story to do my own thing in which even still after a year of playing have not gotten to the end of. I don't play this game as an MMO, I don't group, I don't PVP. So while you may be in favor of P2P, how many customers would they have lost by doing this business model? I think it was a smart business decision, it brought a lot of players who never had the MMO experience into the game. Like it or not I think a lot of players play the same way I do, which is what makes this game unique and cannot be treated like other MMO's.Edited by summitxho on November 2, 2016 6:48PM1 -
Kendaric✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I have read that some believe that the loot crates may provide items that are powerful and not available in game or for direct purchase. Since this is an MMO, I do not understand how the power of another player bothers the function of the game. Some one took the time to explain that unique power items could give one an advantage in the leaderboards. Leader boards are a vanity posting which does not change the way the game is played. So I connect the opposition with elitist. If the opposition to loot crates is not about elitism, then what is it about?
*sigh* Leaderboards are a way of playing the game, just as roleplaying or PvPing is. It's not just a vanity thing, as those interested in the leaderboards are required to have min/maxed builds whereas players not interested in leadeerboards have a lot more freedom to play/build their characters. So it changes the way the game is played.Loot crates are not a business model. They are a commodity that sells well amongst the casual players. In ESO, loot crates would be like unlocking a treasure box. No one knows what is inside one but we all still open them up hoping for something useful. There isn't always something useful but we continue to unlock and check all the same because there might be something. A loot crate is a treasure box that the consumer can purchase rather than find.
There is a vast difference between ingame treasure chests and the scam crates. One contains items that can be gotten ingame by other means, the other contains a lot of exclusive items that can't be obtained in any other way.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: If ZOS puts either retired or current store items in the crates that is ok. People had the chance to get them for a fixed price. But forcing us to gamble for scam crate exclusive stuff that can't be gotten in another way is not ok. Forcing people to accept collectibles they don't want and wouldn't have bought is not ok.
Edited by Kendaric on November 2, 2016 6:52PM3 -
Solus✭✭✭✭Callous2208 wrote: »If they succeed, they will be the first MMO to maintain a quality product after implementation of such systems. It will be interesting to see indeed. History would seem to show that it can't be done, or perhaps will not be done. These are businesses after all, and it is by far easier and more profitable to run a skinner box/gambling system, than it is to produce and maintain a fine product.
Very true, but we would be living in a very different world if we all gave up where others failed, one persons failure is another persons success, that has driven human innovation. So far I have seen these crates implemented in a way that suggests they are taking some of these past failures into consideration, avoiding the pay to win, to me that's a good sign. Will it change in the future? Perhaps, but I am not one to make a prediction based on other companies failings. I take a wait and see approach as I like to work from facts, but I like to think they have some smart experienced people making the calls on an MMO this size, that would be smart for profits and business after all which is why they made the game to begin with. Part of business is to learn from past mistakes, improve and try again if there is a potential for a return, a smart business does not put all revenue generation in one basket, if this is where they felt they could make an improvement over the long term profitability, I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt until I see otherwise, not from other MMO's, but from ESO itself.
In business you always have people telling you how you should run it, listen to them, but as the business owner you should know how to run it best and not be afraid to ruffle some feathers as you will never appease everyone. If they fail in showing me they can run this thing over a long term by making smart business decisions then its not going to be crates that does it in, but in mismanagement as a whole.
Hitting yourself on the head 25 times with a hammer and then passing the hammer to someone else and hoping that the next blow won't hurt....that's where everyone who has played a game(s) that has introduced these ridiculous things are at. We know what's coming because we've been through it before. Every game had people like you saying the same stuff "Well hopefully this company is better than that and they know what they are doing because 'X' reason." It always ends the same. A-L-W-A-Y-S.
I am all for criticizing ZOS for things they did wrong, but man, bashing them for things they didn't do yet, that's a step too far IMHO.
It needs to be repeated until everyone realizes that NOT one single game in the history of gaming, NOT ONE, has ever been able to do these kind of crates and not have their game fail. Not one. There is an undeniable pattern to this boxes that they destroy games. Every. Single. Time.
That's why we pop up in these threads. It has nothing to do with gambling (that's a beef with another subset of players), wanting what others have, or being a whiner. We like this game, we don't want it to go down the road that ALL the other games that have done this have.
CS:GO, DOTA 2, darn TF2 its still alive just beacuse rng crates lol
CS:GO - Hate it
DOTA 2 - id rather LOL
TF2 - havent played that since the console days for me (2 years or more ago)The-Pumpkin-King // Stamblade
https://www.twitch.tv/beenerschnitzel
PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates!
My PC: http://pcpartpicker.com/b/GGWXsY0 -
Abeille✭✭✭✭✭
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That's the problem. I want B2P (well, I actually preferred P2P, but that ship has sailed), not F2P + RNG Boxes.
Help me understand a bit here, but is ESO not already buy to play? I bought the game in the first place, I buy the DLC, is that not what B2P is?
Also to offer some other insight from a different style of player, if the game was P2P I would never have personally tried it as I do not play enough hours in a week to justify a monthly cost (except now I am a subscriber for the crafting bag which I swore I would never do, way to go ZOS...), I would not be a customer at all, the whole reason I tried it in the first place was not because it was an MMO, but because it was Elder Scrolls and had an in depth story to do my own thing in which even still after a year of playing have not gotten to the end of. I don't play this game as an MMO, I don't group, I don't PVP. So while you may be in favor of P2P, how many customers would they have lost by doing this business model? I think it was a smart business decision, it brought a lot of players who never had the MMO experience into the game. Like it or not I think a lot of players play the same way I do, which is what makes this game unique and cannot be treated like other MMO's.
Yes, ESO is Buy-To-Play. I'm saying I want it to stay that way. I'm saying that because RNG Boxes usually signal that a Free-To-Play transition is coming, and they hired a person that is specialized on this kind of transition in MMOs.
I do not dislike the Buy-To-Play model, I understand that a mandatory subscription is a barrier for many players and the MMO I came from was Buy-To-Play (GW2, which now has a Free-To-Play account option with a bunch of restrictions). I embraced the Crown Store and I buy a lot of things from it.
But I preferred the initial premise of the game - no paywalls, you get everything with your monthly subscription and that's it. That's why I kept my subscription regardless of the change. Nothing changes to me and I can grab a few extra customization options from the Crown Store with my Crowns, sounds good enough to keep me around.Edited by Abeille on November 2, 2016 6:59PMJust so that everyone knows, my Altmer still can't have black hair. About a dozen of Altmer NPCs in the game have black hair. Just saying.
Meet my characters:Command: Do the thing.
Zadarri, Khajiit Fist of Thalmor: The thing was done, as commanded.
Durza gra-Maghul, Orc blacksmith: The thing was done perfectly, in the most efficient way.
Tegwen, Bosmer troublemaker: You can't prove I didn't do the thing.
Sings-Many-Songs, Argonian fisher: Sure, I'll do the thing... Eventually. Maybe.
Aerindel, Altmer stormcaller: After extensive research, I've come to the conclusion that doing the thing would be a waste of resources.
Liliel, Dunmer pyromancer: Aerindel said I shouldn't do the thing. Something about "resources".
Gyda Snowcaller, Nord cryomancer: I will find a way to do it that won't waste resources and make Aerindel proud of me.
Beatrice Leoriane, Breton vampire: I persuaded someone else into doing the thing. You are welcome, dear.
Sahima, Redguard performer: Doing the thing sounds awfully unpleasant and really not my problem.
Ellaria Valerius, Imperial priestess: I'll pray to the Eight for the thing to be done, if it is Their will.0 -
summitxho✭✭✭
That's the problem. I want B2P (well, I actually preferred P2P, but that ship has sailed), not F2P + RNG Boxes.
Help me understand a bit here, but is ESO not already buy to play? I bought the game in the first place, I buy the DLC, is that not what B2P is?
Also to offer some other insight from a different style of player, if the game was P2P I would never have personally tried it as I do not play enough hours in a week to justify a monthly cost (except now I am a subscriber for the crafting bag which I swore I would never do, way to go ZOS...), I would not be a customer at all, the whole reason I tried it in the first place was not because it was an MMO, but because it was Elder Scrolls and had an in depth story to do my own thing in which even still after a year of playing have not gotten to the end of. I don't play this game as an MMO, I don't group, I don't PVP. So while you may be in favor of P2P, how many customers would they have lost by doing this business model? I think it was a smart business decision, it brought a lot of players who never had the MMO experience into the game. Like it or not I think a lot of players play the same way I do, which is what makes this game unique and cannot be treated like other MMO's.
Yes, ESO is Buy-To-Play. I'm saying I want it to stay that way. I'm saying that because RNG Boxes usually signal that a Free-To-Play transition is coming, and they hired a person that is specialized on this kind of transition in MMOs.
I do not dislike the Buy-To-Play model, I understand that a mandatory subscription is a barrier for many players and the MMO I came from was Buy-To-Play (GW2, which now has a Free-To-Play account option with a bunch of restrictions). I embraced the Crown Store and I buy a lot of things from it.
But I preferred the initial premise of the game - no paywalls, you get everything with your monthly subscription and that's it. That's why I kept my subscription regardless of the change. Nothing changes to me and I can grab a few extra customization options from the Crown Store with my Crowns, sounds good enough to keep me around.
I see, thank you for clarifying, still learning the lingo.
So I believe you mentioned crates would be more acceptable if whatever exclusive items were in the crates were eventually made available in the crown store (or someone else did earlier) has it yet been confirmed that they will not? or are we using the assumption based on other games this is what it will be? I think that would be a fair way to implement it to most players, and a smart choice as a business, they collect the revenue from the crowd that wants first dibs and willing to chance it, then collect revenue for those who choose to wait and buy it outright. Is there anything else that we can point to other than crates which show its going in the direction of F2P I am curious?
1 -
Abeille✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
That's the problem. I want B2P (well, I actually preferred P2P, but that ship has sailed), not F2P + RNG Boxes.
Help me understand a bit here, but is ESO not already buy to play? I bought the game in the first place, I buy the DLC, is that not what B2P is?
Also to offer some other insight from a different style of player, if the game was P2P I would never have personally tried it as I do not play enough hours in a week to justify a monthly cost (except now I am a subscriber for the crafting bag which I swore I would never do, way to go ZOS...), I would not be a customer at all, the whole reason I tried it in the first place was not because it was an MMO, but because it was Elder Scrolls and had an in depth story to do my own thing in which even still after a year of playing have not gotten to the end of. I don't play this game as an MMO, I don't group, I don't PVP. So while you may be in favor of P2P, how many customers would they have lost by doing this business model? I think it was a smart business decision, it brought a lot of players who never had the MMO experience into the game. Like it or not I think a lot of players play the same way I do, which is what makes this game unique and cannot be treated like other MMO's.
Yes, ESO is Buy-To-Play. I'm saying I want it to stay that way. I'm saying that because RNG Boxes usually signal that a Free-To-Play transition is coming, and they hired a person that is specialized on this kind of transition in MMOs.
I do not dislike the Buy-To-Play model, I understand that a mandatory subscription is a barrier for many players and the MMO I came from was Buy-To-Play (GW2, which now has a Free-To-Play account option with a bunch of restrictions). I embraced the Crown Store and I buy a lot of things from it.
But I preferred the initial premise of the game - no paywalls, you get everything with your monthly subscription and that's it. That's why I kept my subscription regardless of the change. Nothing changes to me and I can grab a few extra customization options from the Crown Store with my Crowns, sounds good enough to keep me around.
I see, thank you for clarifying, still learning the lingo.
So I believe you mentioned crates would be more acceptable if whatever exclusive items were in the crates were eventually made available in the crown store (or someone else did earlier) has it yet been confirmed that they will not? or are we using the assumption based on other games this is what it will be? I think that would be a fair way to implement it to most players, and a smart choice as a business, they collect the revenue from the crowd that wants first dibs and willing to chance it, then collect revenue for those who choose to wait and buy it outright. Is there anything else that we can point to other than crates which show its going in the direction of F2P I am curious?
Both Gina and Matt said from the beginning that there would be items that would be exclusive to the crates, that couldn't be obtained otherwise, although none of them specified which items would be exclusive.
We now know it is not just the Apex rewards. When we were testing them on PTS, Gina said that if an item had only the "Found in the Atronach Crown Crates" tooltip, it was exclusive. That meant that about 2/3 of the items that were in the crates on the PTS were exclusive to the crates because they had that tooltip only. The items that were released before had another tooltip in adition to it, "Purchased in the Crown Store". All the unreleased items had the first tooltip only.
Items that were exclusive to the crates on the PTS included the Red Pit Wolf Mount, the Red Pit Wolf Pup (pet), the Black Mane Lion, the Orchid Nixad, the Purple Daggerback, several Style Parlor items like Argonian's Enveloping Scales and a multitude of other items that were not Atronach-themed.
I am for adding the items for direct purchase before putting them in the crate, but I wouldn't mind if it was the other way round.Edited by Abeille on November 2, 2016 7:28PMJust so that everyone knows, my Altmer still can't have black hair. About a dozen of Altmer NPCs in the game have black hair. Just saying.
Meet my characters:Command: Do the thing.
Zadarri, Khajiit Fist of Thalmor: The thing was done, as commanded.
Durza gra-Maghul, Orc blacksmith: The thing was done perfectly, in the most efficient way.
Tegwen, Bosmer troublemaker: You can't prove I didn't do the thing.
Sings-Many-Songs, Argonian fisher: Sure, I'll do the thing... Eventually. Maybe.
Aerindel, Altmer stormcaller: After extensive research, I've come to the conclusion that doing the thing would be a waste of resources.
Liliel, Dunmer pyromancer: Aerindel said I shouldn't do the thing. Something about "resources".
Gyda Snowcaller, Nord cryomancer: I will find a way to do it that won't waste resources and make Aerindel proud of me.
Beatrice Leoriane, Breton vampire: I persuaded someone else into doing the thing. You are welcome, dear.
Sahima, Redguard performer: Doing the thing sounds awfully unpleasant and really not my problem.
Ellaria Valerius, Imperial priestess: I'll pray to the Eight for the thing to be done, if it is Their will.3 -
Uriel_Nocturne✭✭✭✭✭
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I'm quoting and reposting my own post to try and clear up some issues and misconceptions about why people are against the Crown Crates.Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »
This.Callous2208 wrote: »NeillMcAttack wrote: »Callous2208 wrote: »NeillMcAttack wrote: »Huh, huh, huh, huh, poppy ***!!!
I've bought gamble boxes in Dota and that game is one of the biggest games in the world still.
Even destiny does them now, if you think that game is going anywhere, you are greatly mistaken. Why do people think they are going to do anything other than make the studio more cash?? Because you've seen games release them before and then disappear. Well by that logic I could name every game to ever have existed without gamble boxes and claim they died out because of the lack of them!!
Basically those complaining are people that spend cash in the store already and don't want there to be anything that is out of reach. Which I totally understand by the way. But it's fair to say that they may be exaggerating just a tad when it comes to the "damage" they can cause the studio.
To some players, collecting all the cosmetics and stuff is a large part of the game for them which is why I understand the hatred toward the idea of having to gamble for the goods.
Not to be rude but...we're talking about MMOs. Neither of those are an mmorpg. DOTA is a huge success though, no doubt about it. If my friends are to be believed however, Destiny is meh and getting worse. I can't confirm that, I don't play it.
So am I understanding correctly that you believe RNG boxes have killed all MMO's that have gone that route before!?
MMO's are hard to kill and have a tendency to languish on for years despite small populations and infrequent updates. I have, in my experience, never seen an mmo benefit after these were added in any area besides the cash shop and new boxes. After personally playing at least 2 dozen titles in the past decade or better that introduced a gamble box, each one saw a huge decline in updates, bug fixes, and overall content additions one associates with a fun, we'll managed game. A game that has aspirations to keep a dedicated player base invested for the long haul. In talking with others and reading countless threads, articles from gaming sites, and even articles in trusted media outlets not affiliated with gaming, I am yet to see one instance of a gamble box system being hailed as a good addition to a game. I have also never heard of an mmo that flourished, had consistent new updates, and was widely considered a "good or great" game by the mmo community, after the gamble boxes were implemented. I have not heard of an mmo game that saw an influx of players or at least steady population after gamble boxes were introduced. I am unaware of an mmo with gamble boxes that is not considered second rate, p2w, dieing, poorly managed, going downhill fast. I have never been recommended a game with gamble boxes, but have instead been warned on every occasion to stay away because it's just another "*** lockbox f2p."
I guess I believe gamble boxes kill any chance of an mmo remaining a quality investment for my time or money, a sentiment that seems to be shared by the majority of folks who play mmorpgs. All of this of course is based on my own experience. Perhaps others think differently.
And from my own personal experience with Acheage, RIFT, Star Wars Galaxies, and Lord of the Rings Online; none of the RNG-gamble-boxes "killed" the MMO's, but they have suffered mightily since their inception.
The four MMO's I listed above had regular updates over their lifespans. New areas to explore, new Quests/Dungeons/Raids introduced regularly. Overall, content kept getting released at an easily consumed and welcome rate.
Now, as happens with all MMO's, over time their populations started to decline. With this natural decline of population, there are (obviously) less players buying new DLC/Content that the Devs designed and released. While the DLC would sell well, there was a definite, small loss of revenue due to player population decline. However; player population would spike upward whenever new DLC/Content was released, as older players would return to these games for the newest DLC/Content. But as happens, player populations still decline. So they introduced their versions of the RNG-gamble-boxes-for-Real-Cash to try to get some of that naturally lost revenue back into the game. For a small window of time, cash flowed back into those MMO's, even if the populations never saw any growth from new players. The player loss did plateau for a small window of time though.
But inevitably, those populations started dropping off again, as happens in MMO's.
So the developers started putting more and more exclusive items into those RNG-gamble-boxes, and the items got designed to be ever more powerful, even outstripping the vaunted "Raid" and other "end-game" gear. And each time they introduced newer, more-exclusive items, the MMO's would see a spike in RNG-gamble-box sales. But the populations kept declining.
Eventually; due to monetary concerns, development time and effort went from developing new content as well as RNG-gamble-box-items to developing new RNG-gamble-box-items in lieu of developing new content.
As a result, there was less and less new playable content coming out of those developers as focus was placed on developing new RNG-gamble-box-items, and the player population declines started increasing at a compounded and faster rate. Players wanted and begged for new content. They/we even promised that we'd happily pay for new DLC and areas to explore.
But those developers were so caught in the struggle for immediate cash infusions, that they only increased production of RNG-gamble-box-items. But they never got the revenue because there weren't enough players left to buy them to stave off the loss of revenue.
Out of the four MMO's I listed, only one has "shut off the lights", and that's Star Wars Galaxies. LotRO, RIFT, and Archeage are still running, but the games are ghost towns. There are so few new players joining the games, that you could go weeks before seeing a new, low-level character. The only characters you see (when you see another character...), are players who have no problem spending money to buy their way to the "top". But even with those players, the populations have dropped off so much, that you could run around for hours before running into another player.
When asking several former Guildies why they left, even when major gaming publications ask why players are leaving those games, the answers are hauntingly familiar and nearly identical; those players left/are-leaving because it has been ages since anything new dropped as playable content.
They left because the focus of the developers went from developing new, rich content for the players; to developing RNG-gamble-box-items for the immediate influx of cash.
I fully understand that games in-general, and especially MMO's, are businesses that need to make money to survive. But these RNG-gamble-boxes are cancer to MMO games. They may work well for annual titles like Destiny or Call of Duty or CS:GO, but MMO's survive due to having deep, rich, and regular infusions of content.
These RNG-gamble-boxes may not "kill" MMO's outright, but there's simple facts and a well documented history of those same boxes being the "beginning of the end" for MMO's, as they take the focus away from development that sustains an MMO, to development that only serves to generate quick, fleeting influxes of cash.
So to all the RNG-gamble-box supporters; you're absolutely correct: These boxes don't "kill" games in and of themselves, but they do kill MMO's by detracting/distracting development away from new playable content that will sustain an MMO for years.
And none of us who are against the boxes want to see ESO go down this same negative, well-documented path. This path never has a happy ending for ANY MMO that has introduced these RNG-gamble-boxes.
And that's an easily researched fact.
It's not a worry over exclusivity. It's not about Elitism over the "rarity" of items.
It's about a well documented history of the fall of MMO's that institute the Real-Money-for-RNG-gamble-boxes.
There are much better (and proven) ways to keep an MMO alive and thriving and making money without having to resort to these RNG-gamble-boxes.
But the detraction isn't about exclusivity nor elitism. It's about the future of the game past their implementation, and how the RNG-gamble-boxes quickly become the entire focus of any future development efforts, and content that is actually proven to retain and draw in new players (DLC and explorable areas), will get left behind in the rush for quick, fleeting cash grabs that these boxes really are.
That's why we're against these boxes. We don't want ESO to go down the same paths that these other MMO's have gone once the RNG-gamble-boxes were implemented.
twitch.tv/vampire_nox
PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say no to Crown Crates!4 -
summitxho✭✭✭Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »
I'm quoting and reposting my own post to try and clear up some issues and misconceptions about why people are against the Crown Crates.Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »
This.Callous2208 wrote: »NeillMcAttack wrote: »Callous2208 wrote: »NeillMcAttack wrote: »Huh, huh, huh, huh, poppy ***!!!
I've bought gamble boxes in Dota and that game is one of the biggest games in the world still.
Even destiny does them now, if you think that game is going anywhere, you are greatly mistaken. Why do people think they are going to do anything other than make the studio more cash?? Because you've seen games release them before and then disappear. Well by that logic I could name every game to ever have existed without gamble boxes and claim they died out because of the lack of them!!
Basically those complaining are people that spend cash in the store already and don't want there to be anything that is out of reach. Which I totally understand by the way. But it's fair to say that they may be exaggerating just a tad when it comes to the "damage" they can cause the studio.
To some players, collecting all the cosmetics and stuff is a large part of the game for them which is why I understand the hatred toward the idea of having to gamble for the goods.
Not to be rude but...we're talking about MMOs. Neither of those are an mmorpg. DOTA is a huge success though, no doubt about it. If my friends are to be believed however, Destiny is meh and getting worse. I can't confirm that, I don't play it.
So am I understanding correctly that you believe RNG boxes have killed all MMO's that have gone that route before!?
MMO's are hard to kill and have a tendency to languish on for years despite small populations and infrequent updates. I have, in my experience, never seen an mmo benefit after these were added in any area besides the cash shop and new boxes. After personally playing at least 2 dozen titles in the past decade or better that introduced a gamble box, each one saw a huge decline in updates, bug fixes, and overall content additions one associates with a fun, we'll managed game. A game that has aspirations to keep a dedicated player base invested for the long haul. In talking with others and reading countless threads, articles from gaming sites, and even articles in trusted media outlets not affiliated with gaming, I am yet to see one instance of a gamble box system being hailed as a good addition to a game. I have also never heard of an mmo that flourished, had consistent new updates, and was widely considered a "good or great" game by the mmo community, after the gamble boxes were implemented. I have not heard of an mmo game that saw an influx of players or at least steady population after gamble boxes were introduced. I am unaware of an mmo with gamble boxes that is not considered second rate, p2w, dieing, poorly managed, going downhill fast. I have never been recommended a game with gamble boxes, but have instead been warned on every occasion to stay away because it's just another "*** lockbox f2p."
I guess I believe gamble boxes kill any chance of an mmo remaining a quality investment for my time or money, a sentiment that seems to be shared by the majority of folks who play mmorpgs. All of this of course is based on my own experience. Perhaps others think differently.
And from my own personal experience with Acheage, RIFT, Star Wars Galaxies, and Lord of the Rings Online; none of the RNG-gamble-boxes "killed" the MMO's, but they have suffered mightily since their inception.
The four MMO's I listed above had regular updates over their lifespans. New areas to explore, new Quests/Dungeons/Raids introduced regularly. Overall, content kept getting released at an easily consumed and welcome rate.
Now, as happens with all MMO's, over time their populations started to decline. With this natural decline of population, there are (obviously) less players buying new DLC/Content that the Devs designed and released. While the DLC would sell well, there was a definite, small loss of revenue due to player population decline. However; player population would spike upward whenever new DLC/Content was released, as older players would return to these games for the newest DLC/Content. But as happens, player populations still decline. So they introduced their versions of the RNG-gamble-boxes-for-Real-Cash to try to get some of that naturally lost revenue back into the game. For a small window of time, cash flowed back into those MMO's, even if the populations never saw any growth from new players. The player loss did plateau for a small window of time though.
But inevitably, those populations started dropping off again, as happens in MMO's.
So the developers started putting more and more exclusive items into those RNG-gamble-boxes, and the items got designed to be ever more powerful, even outstripping the vaunted "Raid" and other "end-game" gear. And each time they introduced newer, more-exclusive items, the MMO's would see a spike in RNG-gamble-box sales. But the populations kept declining.
Eventually; due to monetary concerns, development time and effort went from developing new content as well as RNG-gamble-box-items to developing new RNG-gamble-box-items in lieu of developing new content.
As a result, there was less and less new playable content coming out of those developers as focus was placed on developing new RNG-gamble-box-items, and the player population declines started increasing at a compounded and faster rate. Players wanted and begged for new content. They/we even promised that we'd happily pay for new DLC and areas to explore.
But those developers were so caught in the struggle for immediate cash infusions, that they only increased production of RNG-gamble-box-items. But they never got the revenue because there weren't enough players left to buy them to stave off the loss of revenue.
Out of the four MMO's I listed, only one has "shut off the lights", and that's Star Wars Galaxies. LotRO, RIFT, and Archeage are still running, but the games are ghost towns. There are so few new players joining the games, that you could go weeks before seeing a new, low-level character. The only characters you see (when you see another character...), are players who have no problem spending money to buy their way to the "top". But even with those players, the populations have dropped off so much, that you could run around for hours before running into another player.
When asking several former Guildies why they left, even when major gaming publications ask why players are leaving those games, the answers are hauntingly familiar and nearly identical; those players left/are-leaving because it has been ages since anything new dropped as playable content.
They left because the focus of the developers went from developing new, rich content for the players; to developing RNG-gamble-box-items for the immediate influx of cash.
I fully understand that games in-general, and especially MMO's, are businesses that need to make money to survive. But these RNG-gamble-boxes are cancer to MMO games. They may work well for annual titles like Destiny or Call of Duty or CS:GO, but MMO's survive due to having deep, rich, and regular infusions of content.
These RNG-gamble-boxes may not "kill" MMO's outright, but there's simple facts and a well documented history of those same boxes being the "beginning of the end" for MMO's, as they take the focus away from development that sustains an MMO, to development that only serves to generate quick, fleeting influxes of cash.
So to all the RNG-gamble-box supporters; you're absolutely correct: These boxes don't "kill" games in and of themselves, but they do kill MMO's by detracting/distracting development away from new playable content that will sustain an MMO for years.
And none of us who are against the boxes want to see ESO go down this same negative, well-documented path. This path never has a happy ending for ANY MMO that has introduced these RNG-gamble-boxes.
And that's an easily researched fact.
It's not a worry over exclusivity. It's not about Elitism over the "rarity" of items.
It's about a well documented history of the fall of MMO's that institute the Real-Money-for-RNG-gamble-boxes.
There are much better (and proven) ways to keep an MMO alive and thriving and making money without having to resort to these RNG-gamble-boxes.
But the detraction isn't about exclusivity nor elitism. It's about the future of the game past their implementation, and how the RNG-gamble-boxes quickly become the entire focus of any future development efforts, and content that is actually proven to retain and draw in new players (DLC and explorable areas), will get left behind in the rush for quick, fleeting cash grabs that these boxes really are.
That's why we're against these boxes. We don't want ESO to go down the same paths that these other MMO's have gone once the RNG-gamble-boxes were implemented.
No need to repost this, I full understand your point, its just the fact that not all MMO's are created equal either, I think its dangerous to base the outcome on past MMO's when ESO is a whole different monster in itself from what I can tell. Especially since no one has been able to show in facts that the crate is what hurt the MMO, or if the MMO was already hurting and introduced crates to grab cash while they can. When you look at it as a business which is what I am doing since that is what this decision is, a business decision, the first scenario makes no sense, where the second does.
I also believe your a bit off on "this is why people are against MMO's" In the threads you can clearly see some are against the gambling itself, some are against the fact they cannot obtain all items through the crown store, and some are against it because of what other MMO's suffered from, it absolutely does vary.
-What other MMO has the lore, quality, loyalty to the Elder scrolls that ESO has?
-what other MMO has the casual player base that ESO has?
-what other MMO has the amount of players not playing this as an MMO?
-what other MMO has a guarantee of a follow up series as a single player game? as well as most likely another MMO once it becomes dated?
Lets compare apples to apples if we want to compare past MMO's, again I have yet to see examples set forth which is similar enough to ESO for me to agree.
I very much get why your against crates, but for me I just cannot put the cart before the horse here as there are way too many unknowns at this point, and I have yet to see the signs that this is what ZOS plans, do I love everything they have changed since release? Well no, but there is nothing I can look back on which would suggest they are so willing to crater the game if this is as common knowledge as you state.2 -
Uriel_Nocturne✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »
I'm quoting and reposting my own post to try and clear up some issues and misconceptions about why people are against the Crown Crates.Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »
This.Callous2208 wrote: »NeillMcAttack wrote: »Callous2208 wrote: »NeillMcAttack wrote: »Huh, huh, huh, huh, poppy ***!!!
I've bought gamble boxes in Dota and that game is one of the biggest games in the world still.
Even destiny does them now, if you think that game is going anywhere, you are greatly mistaken. Why do people think they are going to do anything other than make the studio more cash?? Because you've seen games release them before and then disappear. Well by that logic I could name every game to ever have existed without gamble boxes and claim they died out because of the lack of them!!
Basically those complaining are people that spend cash in the store already and don't want there to be anything that is out of reach. Which I totally understand by the way. But it's fair to say that they may be exaggerating just a tad when it comes to the "damage" they can cause the studio.
To some players, collecting all the cosmetics and stuff is a large part of the game for them which is why I understand the hatred toward the idea of having to gamble for the goods.
Not to be rude but...we're talking about MMOs. Neither of those are an mmorpg. DOTA is a huge success though, no doubt about it. If my friends are to be believed however, Destiny is meh and getting worse. I can't confirm that, I don't play it.
So am I understanding correctly that you believe RNG boxes have killed all MMO's that have gone that route before!?
MMO's are hard to kill and have a tendency to languish on for years despite small populations and infrequent updates. I have, in my experience, never seen an mmo benefit after these were added in any area besides the cash shop and new boxes. After personally playing at least 2 dozen titles in the past decade or better that introduced a gamble box, each one saw a huge decline in updates, bug fixes, and overall content additions one associates with a fun, we'll managed game. A game that has aspirations to keep a dedicated player base invested for the long haul. In talking with others and reading countless threads, articles from gaming sites, and even articles in trusted media outlets not affiliated with gaming, I am yet to see one instance of a gamble box system being hailed as a good addition to a game. I have also never heard of an mmo that flourished, had consistent new updates, and was widely considered a "good or great" game by the mmo community, after the gamble boxes were implemented. I have not heard of an mmo game that saw an influx of players or at least steady population after gamble boxes were introduced. I am unaware of an mmo with gamble boxes that is not considered second rate, p2w, dieing, poorly managed, going downhill fast. I have never been recommended a game with gamble boxes, but have instead been warned on every occasion to stay away because it's just another "*** lockbox f2p."
I guess I believe gamble boxes kill any chance of an mmo remaining a quality investment for my time or money, a sentiment that seems to be shared by the majority of folks who play mmorpgs. All of this of course is based on my own experience. Perhaps others think differently.
And from my own personal experience with Acheage, RIFT, Star Wars Galaxies, and Lord of the Rings Online; none of the RNG-gamble-boxes "killed" the MMO's, but they have suffered mightily since their inception.
The four MMO's I listed above had regular updates over their lifespans. New areas to explore, new Quests/Dungeons/Raids introduced regularly. Overall, content kept getting released at an easily consumed and welcome rate.
Now, as happens with all MMO's, over time their populations started to decline. With this natural decline of population, there are (obviously) less players buying new DLC/Content that the Devs designed and released. While the DLC would sell well, there was a definite, small loss of revenue due to player population decline. However; player population would spike upward whenever new DLC/Content was released, as older players would return to these games for the newest DLC/Content. But as happens, player populations still decline. So they introduced their versions of the RNG-gamble-boxes-for-Real-Cash to try to get some of that naturally lost revenue back into the game. For a small window of time, cash flowed back into those MMO's, even if the populations never saw any growth from new players. The player loss did plateau for a small window of time though.
But inevitably, those populations started dropping off again, as happens in MMO's.
So the developers started putting more and more exclusive items into those RNG-gamble-boxes, and the items got designed to be ever more powerful, even outstripping the vaunted "Raid" and other "end-game" gear. And each time they introduced newer, more-exclusive items, the MMO's would see a spike in RNG-gamble-box sales. But the populations kept declining.
Eventually; due to monetary concerns, development time and effort went from developing new content as well as RNG-gamble-box-items to developing new RNG-gamble-box-items in lieu of developing new content.
As a result, there was less and less new playable content coming out of those developers as focus was placed on developing new RNG-gamble-box-items, and the player population declines started increasing at a compounded and faster rate. Players wanted and begged for new content. They/we even promised that we'd happily pay for new DLC and areas to explore.
But those developers were so caught in the struggle for immediate cash infusions, that they only increased production of RNG-gamble-box-items. But they never got the revenue because there weren't enough players left to buy them to stave off the loss of revenue.
Out of the four MMO's I listed, only one has "shut off the lights", and that's Star Wars Galaxies. LotRO, RIFT, and Archeage are still running, but the games are ghost towns. There are so few new players joining the games, that you could go weeks before seeing a new, low-level character. The only characters you see (when you see another character...), are players who have no problem spending money to buy their way to the "top". But even with those players, the populations have dropped off so much, that you could run around for hours before running into another player.
When asking several former Guildies why they left, even when major gaming publications ask why players are leaving those games, the answers are hauntingly familiar and nearly identical; those players left/are-leaving because it has been ages since anything new dropped as playable content.
They left because the focus of the developers went from developing new, rich content for the players; to developing RNG-gamble-box-items for the immediate influx of cash.
I fully understand that games in-general, and especially MMO's, are businesses that need to make money to survive. But these RNG-gamble-boxes are cancer to MMO games. They may work well for annual titles like Destiny or Call of Duty or CS:GO, but MMO's survive due to having deep, rich, and regular infusions of content.
These RNG-gamble-boxes may not "kill" MMO's outright, but there's simple facts and a well documented history of those same boxes being the "beginning of the end" for MMO's, as they take the focus away from development that sustains an MMO, to development that only serves to generate quick, fleeting influxes of cash.
So to all the RNG-gamble-box supporters; you're absolutely correct: These boxes don't "kill" games in and of themselves, but they do kill MMO's by detracting/distracting development away from new playable content that will sustain an MMO for years.
And none of us who are against the boxes want to see ESO go down this same negative, well-documented path. This path never has a happy ending for ANY MMO that has introduced these RNG-gamble-boxes.
And that's an easily researched fact.
It's not a worry over exclusivity. It's not about Elitism over the "rarity" of items.
It's about a well documented history of the fall of MMO's that institute the Real-Money-for-RNG-gamble-boxes.
There are much better (and proven) ways to keep an MMO alive and thriving and making money without having to resort to these RNG-gamble-boxes.
But the detraction isn't about exclusivity nor elitism. It's about the future of the game past their implementation, and how the RNG-gamble-boxes quickly become the entire focus of any future development efforts, and content that is actually proven to retain and draw in new players (DLC and explorable areas), will get left behind in the rush for quick, fleeting cash grabs that these boxes really are.
That's why we're against these boxes. We don't want ESO to go down the same paths that these other MMO's have gone once the RNG-gamble-boxes were implemented.
No need to repost this, I full understand your point, its just the fact that not all MMO's are created equal either, I think its dangerous to base the outcome on past MMO's when ESO is a whole different monster in itself from what I can tell. Especially since no one has been able to show in facts that the crate is what hurt the MMO, or if the MMO was already hurting and introduced crates to grab cash while they can. When you look at it as a business which is what I am doing since that is what this decision is, a business decision, the first scenario makes no sense, where the second does.
I also believe your a bit off on "this is why people are against MMO's" In the threads you can clearly see some are against the gambling itself, some are against the fact they cannot obtain all items through the crown store, and some are against it because of what other MMO's suffered from, it absolutely does vary.
-What other MMO has the lore, quality, loyalty to the Elder scrolls that ESO has?
-what other MMO has the casual player base that ESO has?
-what other MMO has the amount of players not playing this as an MMO?
-what other MMO has a guarantee of a follow up series as a single player game? as well as most likely another MMO once it becomes dated?
Lets compare apples to apples if we want to compare past MMO's, again I have yet to see examples set forth which is similar enough to ESO for me to agree.
I very much get why your against crates, but for me I just cannot put the cart before the horse here as there are way too many unknowns at this point, and I have yet to see the signs that this is what ZOS plans, do I love everything they have changed since release? Well no, but there is nothing I can look back on which would suggest they are so willing to crater the game if this is as common knowledge as you state.
WoW, LotRO, SWtOR, SWG, just to name some.-What other MMO has the lore, quality, loyalty to the Elder scrolls that ESO has?
Black Desert, Archeage, SWtOR, SWG, WoW.-what other MMO has the casual player base that ESO has?
I assume you mean PvP aspects. In that case; WoW, Black Desert, SWtOR.-what other MMO has the amount of players not playing this as an MMO?
This one is a false equivalency since the Elder Scrolls SP and ESO are mutually exclusive of each other. Sure Bethesda has said that what happens in ESO will fill in the Lore for the 2nd Era in the Single-Player games, but that's the only place that the two games are ever going to overlap.-what other MMO has a guarantee of a follow up series as a single player game? as well as most likely another MMO once it becomes dated?
But as you can see, I am comparing Apples-to-Apples. ESO is not unique in its genre, nor in it's play or business decisions. As the RNG-gamble-boxes were universally horrible decisions that directly and indirectly lead to the decline of those other MMO's (including being the death knell that forced Star Wars Galaxies to finally shut the lights off), there is no bright future for ESO should these Crown Crates become a reality.
The timeline I posted in my original post is overwhelmingly the most likely outcome for the future of ESO should drastic changes to the Crates not be made. There's far too much well documented history of these RNG-gamble-boxes having a cancerous, severly destructive effect on every other MMO that they've been implemented for anyone to feel "good" about them arriving.
No good will come of the Crown Crates, and the downfall of ESO as we know and love it is the most likely outcome.
The best predictor of the future, is to look at the past.
twitch.tv/vampire_nox
PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say no to Crown Crates!4 -
shadoza✭✭✭✭[
There is a vast difference between ingame treasure chests and the scam crates. One contains items that can be gotten ingame by other means, the other contains a lot of exclusive items that can't be obtained in any other way.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: If ZOS puts either retired or current store items in the crates that is ok. People had the chance to get them for a fixed price. But forcing us to gamble for scam crate exclusive stuff that can't be gotten in another way is not ok. Forcing people to accept collectibles they don't want and wouldn't have bought is not ok.
So you argument is not against the loot crates but what should go into them?
0 -
Kendaric✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭[
There is a vast difference between ingame treasure chests and the scam crates. One contains items that can be gotten ingame by other means, the other contains a lot of exclusive items that can't be obtained in any other way.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: If ZOS puts either retired or current store items in the crates that is ok. People had the chance to get them for a fixed price. But forcing us to gamble for scam crate exclusive stuff that can't be gotten in another way is not ok. Forcing people to accept collectibles they don't want and wouldn't have bought is not ok.
So you argument is not against the loot crates but what should go into them?
Basically yes. I would still prefer them not to be added, but my main gripe is with what's in them and how we're denied to buy the items directly.
If they'd contain only retired and current crown store collectibles, there wouldn't be half the uproar they have caused. It would just be an optional way to obtain certain items.3 -
shadoza✭✭✭✭Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »I'm quoting and reposting my own post to try and clear up some issues and misconceptions about why people are against the Crown Crates.
It's not a worry over exclusivity. It's not about Elitism over the "rarity" of items.
It's about a well documented history of the fall of MMO's that institute the Real-Money-for-RNG-gamble-boxes.
There are much better (and proven) ways to keep an MMO alive and thriving and making money without having to resort to these RNG-gamble-boxes.
But the detraction isn't about exclusivity nor elitism. It's about the future of the game past their implementation, and how the RNG-gamble-boxes quickly become the entire focus of any future development efforts, and content that is actually proven to retain and draw in new players (DLC and explorable areas), will get left behind in the rush for quick, fleeting cash grabs that these boxes really are.
That's why we're against these boxes. We don't want ESO to go down the same paths that these other MMO's have gone once the RNG-gamble-boxes were implemented.
I think your group is divided.
If someone would link in a document demonstrating these failures are connected to the game's failure this concept might be easier to understand. To this point, I am seeing opinions and suppositions rather than an financial report that demonstrates that the loot crates are the reason for the loss. I read annual reports, if there is a loss, the reason behind the loss is clearly stated. I see no such evidence so I believe that most of the "documented history" is commentaries or opinions written up in articles or blogs. If I could see a line in an annual financial report that says something near to "the loot crate program failed to produce the required revenue to support the game," that would clearly indicated that a production company is doing what some are suggesting.
Without such documentation, what is being said is no different than someone saying that going to the basement causes tornados. History has demonstrated that most people go to the basement before a tornado strikes, there for going to the basement causes the tornados to strike. Which, thank the gods, is not fact. I realize the analogy is a little "out there" but this is how I am seeing the claims so far.2 -
shadoza✭✭✭✭[
There is a vast difference between ingame treasure chests and the scam crates. One contains items that can be gotten ingame by other means, the other contains a lot of exclusive items that can't be obtained in any other way.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: If ZOS puts either retired or current store items in the crates that is ok. People had the chance to get them for a fixed price. But forcing us to gamble for scam crate exclusive stuff that can't be gotten in another way is not ok. Forcing people to accept collectibles they don't want and wouldn't have bought is not ok.
So you argument is not against the loot crates but what should go into them?
Basically yes. I would still prefer them not to be added, but my main gripe is with what's in them and how we're denied to buy the items directly.
If they'd contain only retired and current crown store collectibles, there wouldn't be half the uproar they have caused. It would just be an optional way to obtain certain items.
I can agree there. I love the loot crate from TSW; however, there is nothing in those crates that cannot be obtained either in the store or in the game. I can support this concept. loot crates should not have exclusive items.4 -
summitxho✭✭✭Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »
I'm quoting and reposting my own post to try and clear up some issues and misconceptions about why people are against the Crown Crates.Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »
This.Callous2208 wrote: »NeillMcAttack wrote: »Callous2208 wrote: »NeillMcAttack wrote: »Huh, huh, huh, huh, poppy ***!!!
I've bought gamble boxes in Dota and that game is one of the biggest games in the world still.
Even destiny does them now, if you think that game is going anywhere, you are greatly mistaken. Why do people think they are going to do anything other than make the studio more cash?? Because you've seen games release them before and then disappear. Well by that logic I could name every game to ever have existed without gamble boxes and claim they died out because of the lack of them!!
Basically those complaining are people that spend cash in the store already and don't want there to be anything that is out of reach. Which I totally understand by the way. But it's fair to say that they may be exaggerating just a tad when it comes to the "damage" they can cause the studio.
To some players, collecting all the cosmetics and stuff is a large part of the game for them which is why I understand the hatred toward the idea of having to gamble for the goods.
Not to be rude but...we're talking about MMOs. Neither of those are an mmorpg. DOTA is a huge success though, no doubt about it. If my friends are to be believed however, Destiny is meh and getting worse. I can't confirm that, I don't play it.
So am I understanding correctly that you believe RNG boxes have killed all MMO's that have gone that route before!?
MMO's are hard to kill and have a tendency to languish on for years despite small populations and infrequent updates. I have, in my experience, never seen an mmo benefit after these were added in any area besides the cash shop and new boxes. After personally playing at least 2 dozen titles in the past decade or better that introduced a gamble box, each one saw a huge decline in updates, bug fixes, and overall content additions one associates with a fun, we'll managed game. A game that has aspirations to keep a dedicated player base invested for the long haul. In talking with others and reading countless threads, articles from gaming sites, and even articles in trusted media outlets not affiliated with gaming, I am yet to see one instance of a gamble box system being hailed as a good addition to a game. I have also never heard of an mmo that flourished, had consistent new updates, and was widely considered a "good or great" game by the mmo community, after the gamble boxes were implemented. I have not heard of an mmo game that saw an influx of players or at least steady population after gamble boxes were introduced. I am unaware of an mmo with gamble boxes that is not considered second rate, p2w, dieing, poorly managed, going downhill fast. I have never been recommended a game with gamble boxes, but have instead been warned on every occasion to stay away because it's just another "*** lockbox f2p."
I guess I believe gamble boxes kill any chance of an mmo remaining a quality investment for my time or money, a sentiment that seems to be shared by the majority of folks who play mmorpgs. All of this of course is based on my own experience. Perhaps others think differently.
And from my own personal experience with Acheage, RIFT, Star Wars Galaxies, and Lord of the Rings Online; none of the RNG-gamble-boxes "killed" the MMO's, but they have suffered mightily since their inception.
The four MMO's I listed above had regular updates over their lifespans. New areas to explore, new Quests/Dungeons/Raids introduced regularly. Overall, content kept getting released at an easily consumed and welcome rate.
Now, as happens with all MMO's, over time their populations started to decline. With this natural decline of population, there are (obviously) less players buying new DLC/Content that the Devs designed and released. While the DLC would sell well, there was a definite, small loss of revenue due to player population decline. However; player population would spike upward whenever new DLC/Content was released, as older players would return to these games for the newest DLC/Content. But as happens, player populations still decline. So they introduced their versions of the RNG-gamble-boxes-for-Real-Cash to try to get some of that naturally lost revenue back into the game. For a small window of time, cash flowed back into those MMO's, even if the populations never saw any growth from new players. The player loss did plateau for a small window of time though.
But inevitably, those populations started dropping off again, as happens in MMO's.
So the developers started putting more and more exclusive items into those RNG-gamble-boxes, and the items got designed to be ever more powerful, even outstripping the vaunted "Raid" and other "end-game" gear. And each time they introduced newer, more-exclusive items, the MMO's would see a spike in RNG-gamble-box sales. But the populations kept declining.
Eventually; due to monetary concerns, development time and effort went from developing new content as well as RNG-gamble-box-items to developing new RNG-gamble-box-items in lieu of developing new content.
As a result, there was less and less new playable content coming out of those developers as focus was placed on developing new RNG-gamble-box-items, and the player population declines started increasing at a compounded and faster rate. Players wanted and begged for new content. They/we even promised that we'd happily pay for new DLC and areas to explore.
But those developers were so caught in the struggle for immediate cash infusions, that they only increased production of RNG-gamble-box-items. But they never got the revenue because there weren't enough players left to buy them to stave off the loss of revenue.
Out of the four MMO's I listed, only one has "shut off the lights", and that's Star Wars Galaxies. LotRO, RIFT, and Archeage are still running, but the games are ghost towns. There are so few new players joining the games, that you could go weeks before seeing a new, low-level character. The only characters you see (when you see another character...), are players who have no problem spending money to buy their way to the "top". But even with those players, the populations have dropped off so much, that you could run around for hours before running into another player.
When asking several former Guildies why they left, even when major gaming publications ask why players are leaving those games, the answers are hauntingly familiar and nearly identical; those players left/are-leaving because it has been ages since anything new dropped as playable content.
They left because the focus of the developers went from developing new, rich content for the players; to developing RNG-gamble-box-items for the immediate influx of cash.
I fully understand that games in-general, and especially MMO's, are businesses that need to make money to survive. But these RNG-gamble-boxes are cancer to MMO games. They may work well for annual titles like Destiny or Call of Duty or CS:GO, but MMO's survive due to having deep, rich, and regular infusions of content.
These RNG-gamble-boxes may not "kill" MMO's outright, but there's simple facts and a well documented history of those same boxes being the "beginning of the end" for MMO's, as they take the focus away from development that sustains an MMO, to development that only serves to generate quick, fleeting influxes of cash.
So to all the RNG-gamble-box supporters; you're absolutely correct: These boxes don't "kill" games in and of themselves, but they do kill MMO's by detracting/distracting development away from new playable content that will sustain an MMO for years.
And none of us who are against the boxes want to see ESO go down this same negative, well-documented path. This path never has a happy ending for ANY MMO that has introduced these RNG-gamble-boxes.
And that's an easily researched fact.
It's not a worry over exclusivity. It's not about Elitism over the "rarity" of items.
It's about a well documented history of the fall of MMO's that institute the Real-Money-for-RNG-gamble-boxes.
There are much better (and proven) ways to keep an MMO alive and thriving and making money without having to resort to these RNG-gamble-boxes.
But the detraction isn't about exclusivity nor elitism. It's about the future of the game past their implementation, and how the RNG-gamble-boxes quickly become the entire focus of any future development efforts, and content that is actually proven to retain and draw in new players (DLC and explorable areas), will get left behind in the rush for quick, fleeting cash grabs that these boxes really are.
That's why we're against these boxes. We don't want ESO to go down the same paths that these other MMO's have gone once the RNG-gamble-boxes were implemented.
No need to repost this, I full understand your point, its just the fact that not all MMO's are created equal either, I think its dangerous to base the outcome on past MMO's when ESO is a whole different monster in itself from what I can tell. Especially since no one has been able to show in facts that the crate is what hurt the MMO, or if the MMO was already hurting and introduced crates to grab cash while they can. When you look at it as a business which is what I am doing since that is what this decision is, a business decision, the first scenario makes no sense, where the second does.
I also believe your a bit off on "this is why people are against MMO's" In the threads you can clearly see some are against the gambling itself, some are against the fact they cannot obtain all items through the crown store, and some are against it because of what other MMO's suffered from, it absolutely does vary.
-What other MMO has the lore, quality, loyalty to the Elder scrolls that ESO has?
-what other MMO has the casual player base that ESO has?
-what other MMO has the amount of players not playing this as an MMO?
-what other MMO has a guarantee of a follow up series as a single player game? as well as most likely another MMO once it becomes dated?
Lets compare apples to apples if we want to compare past MMO's, again I have yet to see examples set forth which is similar enough to ESO for me to agree.
I very much get why your against crates, but for me I just cannot put the cart before the horse here as there are way too many unknowns at this point, and I have yet to see the signs that this is what ZOS plans, do I love everything they have changed since release? Well no, but there is nothing I can look back on which would suggest they are so willing to crater the game if this is as common knowledge as you state.
WoW, LotRO, SWtOR, SWG, just to name some.-What other MMO has the lore, quality, loyalty to the Elder scrolls that ESO has?
Black Desert, Archeage, SWtOR, SWG, WoW.-what other MMO has the casual player base that ESO has?
I assume you mean PvP aspects. In that case; WoW, Black Desert, SWtOR.-what other MMO has the amount of players not playing this as an MMO?
This one is a false equivalency since the Elder Scrolls SP and ESO are mutually exclusive of each other. Sure Bethesda has said that what happens in ESO will fill in the Lore for the 2nd Era in the Single-Player games, but that's the only place that the two games are ever going to overlap.-what other MMO has a guarantee of a follow up series as a single player game? as well as most likely another MMO once it becomes dated?
But as you can see, I am comparing Apples-to-Apples. ESO is not unique in its genre, nor in it's play or business decisions. As the RNG-gamble-boxes were universally horrible decisions that directly and indirectly lead to the decline of those other MMO's (including being the death knell that forced Star Wars Galaxies to finally shut the lights off), there is no bright future for ESO should these Crown Crates become a reality.
The timeline I posted in my original post is overwhelmingly the most likely outcome for the future of ESO should drastic changes to the Crates not be made. There's far too much well documented history of these RNG-gamble-boxes having a cancerous, severly destructive effect on every other MMO that they've been implemented for anyone to feel "good" about them arriving.
No good will come of the Crown Crates, and the downfall of ESO as we know and love it is the most likely outcome.
The best predictor of the future, is to look at the past.
If the best predictor of the future is to look at the past, we would not have the following:
Ford motor company, sony, light bulbs, Seinfeld, Harry Potter, The Beatles, Michael Jordan, Disney... the list is really long. What they all had in common is that they started out in utter failure.
As per what other MMO has the amount of players who do not play this as an MMO, I meant players like me who do not group or PVP, and simply play the content like its a single player game with other users running around. Does SWtOR have this as well?
So the only one that has all of them in common is SWtOR which met all categories, so I will take that as the most comparable to ESO as far as apples to apples, being as the rest do not meet all the same aspects as ESO, we cannot compare them in the same vein IMO so I will choose this game to explore a bit.
So is SWtOR suffering from decline due to these gambling crates already? At around what time did the game start to decline for me to look into some other factors which may be relevant to its decline?
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shadoza✭✭✭✭If the best predictor of the future is to look at the past, we would not have the following:
Ford motor company, sony, light bulbs, Seinfeld, Harry Potter, The Beatles, Michael Jordan, Disney... the list is really long. What they all had in common is that they started out in utter failure.
As per what other MMO has the amount of players who do not play this as an MMO, I meant players like me who do not group or PVP, and simply play the content like its a single player game with other users running around. Does SWtOR have this as well?
So the only one that has all of them in common is SWtOR which met all categories, so I will take that as the most comparable to ESO as far as apples to apples, being as the rest do not meet all the same aspects as ESO, we cannot compare them in the same vein IMO so I will choose this game to explore a bit.
So is SWtOR suffering from decline due to these gambling crates already? At around what time did the game start to decline for me to look into some other factors which may be relevant to its decline?
The Secret World (TSW) is comparable to ESO as they are both very unique in the MMO class. What the Secret World does not have that ESO has is the option to play a version of the game off line. TSW has loot crates called Mystery Boxes. They have two kinds currently, a small and a large. What is in the boxes is listed in the description as well as the chance of receiving one of the items (listed as common, uncommon, and rare.) Everything in the Mystery boxes, either size, can be found within the game or store. TSW also has bags with are like the Mystery Boxes, but contain items that cannot be found in the game. The bags are generally special event types that have a theme focus. Everything in these bags are cosmetic, there is no advantage.
It has been labeled by TWS team as one of the best sellers. Players do complain that the bags drop the most desired items too rarely; however, they still purchase the bags. TSW has a way of share the items in the bags via a Party bag which distributes the bag items to people surrounding the bag holder as well as the bag holder themselves.
Someone mentioned that TSW is a poor example as they are failing. Maybe they are failing; however, it is not the loot crates idea that is dragging them down, it is poor relations with the majority of the players. Currently, TSW is attempting to satisfy the End-Gamers; the money is not in End-Gamers it is in the new arrivals and those that play casual enough that they are still playing through the story lines.0 -
BuddyAces✭✭✭✭✭
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Notice how in every single one of these threads that not one person has come forward and said "Thank God for loot crates. They sure helped our game!" It's because everyone that has played a game that has introduced these stupid things has noticed a rapid decline in player base and game content/quality.
Remember earlier in the thread where it was pointed out that this game is going from 4 dlcs a year to now 4 updates a year with maybe a dlc (or whatever was said, please look back for it for exact info as I'm paraphrasing)? Now, in every single MMO that has added these boxes, these EXACT changes are usually what follows after the boxes are already in play. It's almost scary to see that's what is happening now even before the crates are in.
There is a noticeable shift in development of a game when these things are added. This is a FACT. That can not be disputed. Content/quality/balance takes a massive nose dive once these things are added. Anybody who disagrees with everyone posting in this thread on the impact these boxes have on a game has never ever played a game that has added boxes.
Once a game adds them they also get the stigma from people as just another failed game trying to milk its player base and people steer away from them like the plague.
No good has ever come from adding these things. Don't try to tell me that boxes saved game "X" because you can read stuff on devs and heads of companies talking about how they rely on "whales" to keep their game afloat. It's something abysmal like 5-10 percent of their player base that is willing to shell out thousands while a few more spend not even a fraction of that. So as I've said before, technically lock boxes don't kill a game since they're still up and running. There's a vast difference between being a good game and a game that's up and running...Edited by BuddyAces on November 2, 2016 8:57PMThey nerfed magsorcs so hard stamsorcs felt it,lol - Somber97866
I'm blown away by the utter stupidity I see here on the daily. - Wrekkedd4 -
summitxho✭✭✭I also found some threads on SWtOR and its hypercrates, I would assume this is what the crown crates are being compared to? probably against the forum rules to post links to the forums, but I googled SWtOR gambling crates and almost all the posts I found were either indifferent or excited about those crates, I could not find the same negativity that seems to be here.
As for user base, I googled "SWtOR user levels dropping?" and I found positive reviews, and the fact it added 2,000,000 more users to the game when it went F2P and used the crates to create revenue and still scored an 8.3 out of 10 on the review.
This is also an excellent read as per Five Lessons Learned as SWtOR surrenders
http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2012/08/01/five-lessons-learned-as-swtor-surrenders/#214a827b368e
there is no mention of the gambling crates however, but there is mention of the natural drop off in an MMO as per earlier
I am just not seeing the doom that you have pointed out as of yet.Edited by summitxho on November 2, 2016 9:04PM1