NeillMcAttack wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

Huh, huh, huh, huh, poppy ***!!!

I've bought gamble boxes in Dota and that game is one of the biggest games in the world still.

Even destiny does them now, if you think that game is going anywhere, you are greatly mistaken. Why do people think they are going to do anything other than make the studio more cash?? Because you've seen games release them before and then disappear. Well by that logic I could name every game to ever have existed without gamble boxes and claim they died out because of the lack of them!!

Basically those complaining are people that spend cash in the store already and don't want there to be anything that is out of reach. Which I totally understand by the way. But it's fair to say that they may be exaggerating just a tad when it comes to the "damage" they can cause the studio.

To some players, collecting all the cosmetics and stuff is a large part of the game for them which is why I understand the hatred toward the idea of having to gamble for the goods.

Not to be rude but...we're talking about MMOs. Neither of those are an mmorpg. DOTA is a huge success though, no doubt about it. If my friends are to be believed however, Destiny is meh and getting worse. I can't confirm that, I don't play it.

So am I understanding correctly that you believe RNG boxes have killed all MMO's that have gone that route before!?

MMO's are hard to kill and have a tendency to languish on for years despite small populations and infrequent updates. I have, in my experience, never seen an mmo benefit after these were added in any area besides the cash shop and new boxes. After personally playing at least 2 dozen titles in the past decade or better that introduced a gamble box, each one saw a huge decline in updates, bug fixes, and overall content additions one associates with a fun, we'll managed game. A game that has aspirations to keep a dedicated player base invested for the long haul. In talking with others and reading countless threads, articles from gaming sites, and even articles in trusted media outlets not affiliated with gaming, I am yet to see one instance of a gamble box system being hailed as a good addition to a game. I have also never heard of an mmo that flourished, had consistent new updates, and was widely considered a "good or great" game by the mmo community, after the gamble boxes were implemented. I have not heard of an mmo game that saw an influx of players or at least steady population after gamble boxes were introduced. I am unaware of an mmo with gamble boxes that is not considered second rate, p2w, dieing, poorly managed, going downhill fast. I have never been recommended a game with gamble boxes, but have instead been warned on every occasion to stay away because it's just another "*** lockbox f2p."

I guess I believe gamble boxes kill any chance of an mmo remaining a quality investment for my time or money, a sentiment that seems to be shared by the majority of folks who play mmorpgs. All of this of course is based on my own experience. Perhaps others think differently.

Callous2208 wrote: »

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

Huh, huh, huh, huh, poppy ***!!!

I've bought gamble boxes in Dota and that game is one of the biggest games in the world still.

Even destiny does them now, if you think that game is going anywhere, you are greatly mistaken. Why do people think they are going to do anything other than make the studio more cash?? Because you've seen games release them before and then disappear. Well by that logic I could name every game to ever have existed without gamble boxes and claim they died out because of the lack of them!!

Basically those complaining are people that spend cash in the store already and don't want there to be anything that is out of reach. Which I totally understand by the way. But it's fair to say that they may be exaggerating just a tad when it comes to the "damage" they can cause the studio.

To some players, collecting all the cosmetics and stuff is a large part of the game for them which is why I understand the hatred toward the idea of having to gamble for the goods.

Not to be rude but...we're talking about MMOs. Neither of those are an mmorpg. DOTA is a huge success though, no doubt about it. If my friends are to be believed however, Destiny is meh and getting worse. I can't confirm that, I don't play it.

So am I understanding correctly that you believe RNG boxes have killed all MMO's that have gone that route before!?

MMO's are hard to kill and have a tendency to languish on for years despite small populations and infrequent updates. I have, in my experience, never seen an mmo benefit after these were added in any area besides the cash shop and new boxes. After personally playing at least 2 dozen titles in the past decade or better that introduced a gamble box, each one saw a huge decline in updates, bug fixes, and overall content additions one associates with a fun, we'll managed game. A game that has aspirations to keep a dedicated player base invested for the long haul. In talking with others and reading countless threads, articles from gaming sites, and even articles in trusted media outlets not affiliated with gaming, I am yet to see one instance of a gamble box system being hailed as a good addition to a game. I have also never heard of an mmo that flourished, had consistent new updates, and was widely considered a "good or great" game by the mmo community, after the gamble boxes were implemented. I have not heard of an mmo game that saw an influx of players or at least steady population after gamble boxes were introduced. I am unaware of an mmo with gamble boxes that is not considered second rate, p2w, dieing, poorly managed, going downhill fast. I have never been recommended a game with gamble boxes, but have instead been warned on every occasion to stay away because it's just another "*** lockbox f2p."

I guess I believe gamble boxes kill any chance of an mmo remaining a quality investment for my time or money, a sentiment that seems to be shared by the majority of folks who play mmorpgs. All of this of course is based on my own experience. Perhaps others think differently.

If an MMO is bringing in more money in the cash shop, that's a benefit to the business, what that business does with that extra cash in regards to ESO is yet to be determined. End result, benefit.

If you have played 2 dozen MMO titles in 10 years, that is 2.4 titles per year, showing that its natural for a game to have ebb and flows in its user base as new titles are released, much more likely to be the reason for game decline is that other games have grabbed those gamer's attention, not the RNG crates.

No one is arguing gambling boxes are a good addition, could they be? Sure, depends on how ZOS handles it, what we are saying is they have yet to be shown they kill a game which is what people keep telling us based on hyperbole.

This game is not just an MMO community, its a diverse community in which has attracted many other players that play this game as a single player game, to treat it as strictly an MMO, and treat its customer base as such is a mistake. Its different, and as stated earlier this game is oriented towards that casual player.

Can you link these trusted media outlets? I would love to read them myself, honestly, no ill intentions.

Callous2208 wrote: »

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

Huh, huh, huh, huh, poppy ***!!!

I've bought gamble boxes in Dota and that game is one of the biggest games in the world still.

Even destiny does them now, if you think that game is going anywhere, you are greatly mistaken. Why do people think they are going to do anything other than make the studio more cash?? Because you've seen games release them before and then disappear. Well by that logic I could name every game to ever have existed without gamble boxes and claim they died out because of the lack of them!!

Basically those complaining are people that spend cash in the store already and don't want there to be anything that is out of reach. Which I totally understand by the way. But it's fair to say that they may be exaggerating just a tad when it comes to the "damage" they can cause the studio.

To some players, collecting all the cosmetics and stuff is a large part of the game for them which is why I understand the hatred toward the idea of having to gamble for the goods.

Not to be rude but...we're talking about MMOs. Neither of those are an mmorpg. DOTA is a huge success though, no doubt about it. If my friends are to be believed however, Destiny is meh and getting worse. I can't confirm that, I don't play it.

So am I understanding correctly that you believe RNG boxes have killed all MMO's that have gone that route before!?

MMO's are hard to kill and have a tendency to languish on for years despite small populations and infrequent updates. I have, in my experience, never seen an mmo benefit after these were added in any area besides the cash shop and new boxes. After personally playing at least 2 dozen titles in the past decade or better that introduced a gamble box, each one saw a huge decline in updates, bug fixes, and overall content additions one associates with a fun, we'll managed game. A game that has aspirations to keep a dedicated player base invested for the long haul. In talking with others and reading countless threads, articles from gaming sites, and even articles in trusted media outlets not affiliated with gaming, I am yet to see one instance of a gamble box system being hailed as a good addition to a game. I have also never heard of an mmo that flourished, had consistent new updates, and was widely considered a "good or great" game by the mmo community, after the gamble boxes were implemented. I have not heard of an mmo game that saw an influx of players or at least steady population after gamble boxes were introduced. I am unaware of an mmo with gamble boxes that is not considered second rate, p2w, dieing, poorly managed, going downhill fast. I have never been recommended a game with gamble boxes, but have instead been warned on every occasion to stay away because it's just another "*** lockbox f2p."

I guess I believe gamble boxes kill any chance of an mmo remaining a quality investment for my time or money, a sentiment that seems to be shared by the majority of folks who play mmorpgs. All of this of course is based on my own experience. Perhaps others think differently.

This.

And from my own personal experience with Acheage, RIFT, Star Wars Galaxies, and Lord of the Rings Online; none of the RNG-gamble-boxes "killed" the MMO's, but they have suffered mightily since their inception.

The four MMO's I listed above had regular updates over their lifespans. New areas to explore, new Quests/Dungeons/Raids introduced regularly. Overall, content kept getting released at an easily consumed and welcome rate.

Now, as happens with all MMO's, over time their populations started to decline. With this natural decline of population, there are (obviously) less players buying new DLC/Content that the Devs designed and released. While the DLC would sell well, there was a definite, small loss of revenue due to player population decline. However; player population would spike upward whenever new DLC/Content was released, as older players would return to these games for the newest DLC/Content. But as happens, player populations still decline. So they introduced their versions of the RNG-gamble-boxes-for-Real-Cash to try to get some of that naturally lost revenue back into the game. For a small window of time, cash flowed back into those MMO's, even if the populations never saw any growth from new players. The player loss did plateau for a small window of time though.

But inevitably, those populations started dropping off again, as happens in MMO's.

So the developers started putting more and more exclusive items into those RNG-gamble-boxes, and the items got designed to be ever more powerful, even outstripping the vaunted "Raid" and other "end-game" gear. And each time they introduced newer, more-exclusive items, the MMO's would see a spike in RNG-gamble-box sales. But the populations kept declining.

Eventually; due to monetary concerns, development time and effort went from developing new content as well as RNG-gamble-box-items to developing new RNG-gamble-box-items in lieu of developing new content.

As a result, there was less and less new playable content coming out of those developers as focus was placed on developing new RNG-gamble-box-items, and the player population declines started increasing at a compounded and faster rate. Players wanted and begged for new content. They/we even promised that we'd happily pay for new DLC and areas to explore.

But those developers were so caught in the struggle for immediate cash infusions, that they only increased production of RNG-gamble-box-items. But they never got the revenue because there weren't enough players left to buy them to stave off the loss of revenue.

Out of the four MMO's I listed, only one has "shut off the lights", and that's Star Wars Galaxies. LotRO, RIFT, and Archeage are still running, but the games are ghost towns. There are so few new players joining the games, that you could go weeks before seeing a new, low-level character. The only characters you see (when you see another character...), are players who have no problem spending money to buy their way to the "top". But even with those players, the populations have dropped off so much, that you could run around for hours before running into another player.

When asking several former Guildies why they left, even when major gaming publications ask why players are leaving those games, the answers are hauntingly familiar and nearly identical; those players left/are-leaving because it has been ages since anything new dropped as playable content.

They left because the focus of the developers went from developing new, rich content for the players; to developing RNG-gamble-box-items for the immediate influx of cash.

I fully understand that games in-general, and especially MMO's, are businesses that need to make money to survive. But these RNG-gamble-boxes are cancer to MMO games. They may work well for annual titles like Destiny or Call of Duty or CS:GO, but MMO's survive due to having deep, rich, and regular infusions of content.

These RNG-gamble-boxes may not "kill" MMO's outright, but there's simple facts and a well documented history of those same boxes being the "beginning of the end" for MMO's, as they take the focus away from development that sustains an MMO, to development that only serves to generate quick, fleeting influxes of cash.

So to all the RNG-gamble-box supporters; you're absolutely correct: These boxes don't "kill" games in and of themselves, but they do kill MMO's by detracting/distracting development away from new playable content that will sustain an MMO for years.

And none of us who are against the boxes want to see ESO go down this same negative, well-documented path. This path never has a happy ending for ANY MMO that has introduced these RNG-gamble-boxes.

And that's an easily researched fact.

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

Huh, huh, huh, huh, poppy ***!!!

I've bought gamble boxes in Dota and that game is one of the biggest games in the world still.

Even destiny does them now, if you think that game is going anywhere, you are greatly mistaken. Why do people think they are going to do anything other than make the studio more cash?? Because you've seen games release them before and then disappear. Well by that logic I could name every game to ever have existed without gamble boxes and claim they died out because of the lack of them!!

Basically those complaining are people that spend cash in the store already and don't want there to be anything that is out of reach. Which I totally understand by the way. But it's fair to say that they may be exaggerating just a tad when it comes to the "damage" they can cause the studio.

To some players, collecting all the cosmetics and stuff is a large part of the game for them which is why I understand the hatred toward the idea of having to gamble for the goods.

Not to be rude but...we're talking about MMOs. Neither of those are an mmorpg. DOTA is a huge success though, no doubt about it. If my friends are to be believed however, Destiny is meh and getting worse. I can't confirm that, I don't play it.

So am I understanding correctly that you believe RNG boxes have killed all MMO's that have gone that route before!?

MMO's are hard to kill and have a tendency to languish on for years despite small populations and infrequent updates. I have, in my experience, never seen an mmo benefit after these were added in any area besides the cash shop and new boxes. After personally playing at least 2 dozen titles in the past decade or better that introduced a gamble box, each one saw a huge decline in updates, bug fixes, and overall content additions one associates with a fun, we'll managed game. A game that has aspirations to keep a dedicated player base invested for the long haul. In talking with others and reading countless threads, articles from gaming sites, and even articles in trusted media outlets not affiliated with gaming, I am yet to see one instance of a gamble box system being hailed as a good addition to a game. I have also never heard of an mmo that flourished, had consistent new updates, and was widely considered a "good or great" game by the mmo community, after the gamble boxes were implemented. I have not heard of an mmo game that saw an influx of players or at least steady population after gamble boxes were introduced. I am unaware of an mmo with gamble boxes that is not considered second rate, p2w, dieing, poorly managed, going downhill fast. I have never been recommended a game with gamble boxes, but have instead been warned on every occasion to stay away because it's just another "*** lockbox f2p."

I guess I believe gamble boxes kill any chance of an mmo remaining a quality investment for my time or money, a sentiment that seems to be shared by the majority of folks who play mmorpgs. All of this of course is based on my own experience. Perhaps others think differently.

This.

And from my own personal experience with Acheage, RIFT, Star Wars Galaxies, and Lord of the Rings Online; none of the RNG-gamble-boxes "killed" the MMO's, but they have suffered mightily since their inception.

The four MMO's I listed above had regular updates over their lifespans. New areas to explore, new Quests/Dungeons/Raids introduced regularly. Overall, content kept getting released at an easily consumed and welcome rate.

Now, as happens with all MMO's, over time their populations started to decline. So they introduced their versions of the RNG-gamble-boxes-for-Real-Cash. For a small window of time, cash flowed back into those MMO's, even if the populations never saw any growth from new players. The player loss did plateau for a small window of time though.

But inevitably, those populations started dropping off again, as happens in MMO's.

So the developers started putting more and more exclusive items into those RNG-gamble-boxes, and the items got designed to be ever more powerful, even outstripping the vaunted "Raid" and other "end-game" gear. And each time they introduced newer, more-exclusive items, the MMO's would see a spike in RNG-gamble-box sales. But the populations kept declining.

Eventually; due to monetary concerns, development time and effort went from developing new content as well as RNG-gamble-box-items to developing new RNG-gamble-box-items in lieu of developing new content.

As a result, there was less and less new playable content coming out of those developers as focus was placed on developing new RNG-gamble-box-items, and the player population declines started increasing at a compounded and faster rate. Players wanted and begged for new content. They/we even promised that we'd happily pay for new DLC and areas to explore.

But those developers were so caught in the struggle for immediate cash infusions, that they only increased production of RNG-gamble-box-items. But they never got the revenue because there weren't enough players left to buy them to stave off the loss of revenue.

Out of the four MMO's I listed, only one has "shut off the lights", and that's Star Wars Galaxies. LotRO, RIFT, and Archeage are still running, but the games are ghost towns. There are so few new players joining the games, that you could go weeks before seeing a new, low-level character. The only characters you see (when you see another character...), are players who have no problem spending money to buy their way to the "top". But even with those players, the populations have dropped off so much, that you could run around for hours before running into another player.

When asking several former Guildies why they left, even when major gaming publications ask why players are leaving those games, the answers are hauntingly familiar and nearly identical; those players left/are-leaving because it has been ages since anything new dropped as playable content.

They left because the focus of the developers went from developing new, rich content for the players; to developing RNG-gamble-box-items for the immediate influx of cash.

I fully understand that games in-general, and especially MMO's, are businesses that need to make money to survive. But these RNG-gamble-boxes are cancer to MMO games. They may work well for annual titles like Destiny or Call of Duty or CS:GO, but MMO's survive due to having deep, rich, and regular infusions of content.

These RNG-gamble-boxes may not "kill" MMO's outright, but there's simple facts and a well documented history of those same boxes being the "beginning of the end" for MMO's, as they take the focus away from development that sustains an MMO, to development that only serves to generate quick, fleeting influxes of cash.

So to all the RNG-gamble-box supporters; you're absolutely correct: These boxes don't "kill" games in and of themselves, but they do kill MMO's by detracting/distracting development away from new playable content that will sustain an MMO for years.

And none of us who are against the boxes want to see ESO go down this same negative, well-documented path. This path never has a happy ending for ANY MMO that has introduced these RNG-gamble-boxes.

And that's an easily researched fact.

This is probably the best post about this topic and should be reposted in every thread about boxes.

Agobi wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

Agobi wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

Agobi wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

BuddyAces wrote: »

It needs to be repeated until everyone realizes that NOT one single game in the history of gaming, NOT ONE, has ever been able to do these kind of crates and not have their game fail. Not one. There is an undeniable pattern to this boxes that they destroy games. Every. Single. Time.

That's why we pop up in these threads. It has nothing to do with gambling (that's a beef with another subset of players), wanting what others have, or being a whiner. We like this game, we don't want it to go down the road that ALL the other games that have done this have.

The Secret World has boxes they call Mystery boxes. Not only does it work, but they report that it is its biggest seller in their in-game store. I sub to TSW as well as this game and I have extra points/crowns to burn. I spend my TSW "points" on the boxes because I am not into clothing or pets.

I do not understand why players would be so upset about them when they are not required to purchase them in order to play. There is nothing inside the boxes that will give them an advantage over another player. If the experience helps them advance through the levels sooner, that does not break the game for any other player. I have a character that I used to play with a friend. Because grouping reduces the amount of experience one gets, I found he fell behind the map level he was playing on. I purchased some experience scrolls to catch him up. No one noticed that I did this because it didn't change a thing for any other player. A couple days passing, after repeatedly dying in a boss fight for a quest, I purchased a bundle that provided a meal that boosted both health and stamina at once. Did anyone notice my using that item? Nope.

If the main concern is that Great items will be dumped in a crate for a great cost, then the answer is don't buy the items at the higher cost. Send a feedback notice to the Devs at that point explaining how you feel. ESO has been really great at giving us what we want. (Happened to check my wish list this morning and realized that only three items on my list were not realized. Awesome work ESO!)

You may have noticed...but the development of TSW has just about stopped completely....except for the montly box,and or recycling of en old event....with a box containg "new" items" once again.....

I am a GM in TSW ,and I still cant bring myself to login anymore with the gambling bag focus being everything

I do not play TSW as much as I once did, but it is because of the focus on grouping. (I don't group much because of the amount of time it takes to pull groups together or actually clear a dungeon with a PuG.) I enjoy the Mystery boxes and still buy them with my points. TSW has never been good at kicking out new content...but they are still kicking and there are many things about that game that I still enjoy.

If you are a GM in TSW, should you not be over there assisting and guiding? They've a grand community group event going on currently.

I did log in....opened in the store..."oh look some new rng boxes...."

Wondered if I should do the halloween thingy...which again rewards....an rng box...
Or spend some of my thousands of saved points on....rng boxes.
Or save them for christmas event...which will add some more rng boxes.....

Starting to see the pattern yet?

Logged out

My point: you said you were a GM but do not long into the game. Do you not have to be in game to GM it?

GM = GrandMaster....as in lifetime subscriber....which I have been since beta....but now the game has turned into teh the secret wold of rngboxes...so I no longer log in

That clears up a lot. I think of GM as Game Master...meaning the people that police the game from the inside.

I do not believe TSW's issue is related to the Mystery Boxes. I honestly believe that the TSW problem is because they are catering to the noisy few instead of the masses. When a MMO has been in service for a few years there are many End-gamers making demands like they own the place (not all as I am an End-gamer and I am not that demanding.) Unfortunately, the money that TSW needs to continue producing isn't in the End-gamers, it's in the new arrivals. The casual players that come and go only to return again. Many of the End-gamers in that title are Grand Master subscribers and do not contribute to the income. It is my belief that they could be in even worse shape if they do not start supporting casual players and soloists (who are largely casual players.)

Some End-gamers get nasty when the issue of who is actually supporting the game verse who is making the demands. But the serious point is, if I stopped playing the game today, Funcom will never notice because I only spending money when there is something I desire. I purchase the Grand Master sub years passing. Because I don't care for the clothing and vanity pets, the Mystery boxes is where I spend my money. Yes, I actually purchased points to buy Mystery boxes because I enjoy them. I will purchase DLC if they come along with something that relates to my play style...and make that special addition worth purchasing.

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

This.

And from my own personal experience with Acheage, RIFT, Star Wars Galaxies, and Lord of the Rings Online; none of the RNG-gamble-boxes "killed" the MMO's, but they have suffered mightily since their inception.

The four MMO's I listed above had regular updates over their lifespans. New areas to explore, new Quests/Dungeons/Raids introduced regularly. Overall, content kept getting released at an easily consumed and welcome rate.

Now, as happens with all MMO's, over time their populations started to decline. With this natural decline of population, there are (obviously) less players buying new DLC/Content that the Devs designed and released. While the DLC would sell well, there was a definite, small loss of revenue due to player population decline. However; player population would spike upward whenever new DLC/Content was released, as older players would return to these games for the newest DLC/Content. But as happens, player populations still decline. So they introduced their versions of the RNG-gamble-boxes-for-Real-Cash to try to get some of that naturally lost revenue back into the game. For a small window of time, cash flowed back into those MMO's, even if the populations never saw any growth from new players. The player loss did plateau for a small window of time though.

But inevitably, those populations started dropping off again, as happens in MMO's.

So the developers started putting more and more exclusive items into those RNG-gamble-boxes, and the items got designed to be ever more powerful, even outstripping the vaunted "Raid" and other "end-game" gear. And each time they introduced newer, more-exclusive items, the MMO's would see a spike in RNG-gamble-box sales. But the populations kept declining.

Eventually; due to monetary concerns, development time and effort went from developing new content as well as RNG-gamble-box-items to developing new RNG-gamble-box-items in lieu of developing new content.

As a result, there was less and less new playable content coming out of those developers as focus was placed on developing new RNG-gamble-box-items, and the player population declines started increasing at a compounded and faster rate. Players wanted and begged for new content. They/we even promised that we'd happily pay for new DLC and areas to explore.

But those developers were so caught in the struggle for immediate cash infusions, that they only increased production of RNG-gamble-box-items. But they never got the revenue because there weren't enough players left to buy them to stave off the loss of revenue.

Out of the four MMO's I listed, only one has "shut off the lights", and that's Star Wars Galaxies. LotRO, RIFT, and Archeage are still running, but the games are ghost towns. There are so few new players joining the games, that you could go weeks before seeing a new, low-level character. The only characters you see (when you see another character...), are players who have no problem spending money to buy their way to the "top". But even with those players, the populations have dropped off so much, that you could run around for hours before running into another player.

When asking several former Guildies why they left, even when major gaming publications ask why players are leaving those games, the answers are hauntingly familiar and nearly identical; those players left/are-leaving because it has been ages since anything new dropped as playable content.

They left because the focus of the developers went from developing new, rich content for the players; to developing RNG-gamble-box-items for the immediate influx of cash.

I fully understand that games in-general, and especially MMO's, are businesses that need to make money to survive. But these RNG-gamble-boxes are cancer to MMO games. They may work well for annual titles like Destiny or Call of Duty or CS:GO, but MMO's survive due to having deep, rich, and regular infusions of content.

These RNG-gamble-boxes may not "kill" MMO's outright, but there's simple facts and a well documented history of those same boxes being the "beginning of the end" for MMO's, as they take the focus away from development that sustains an MMO, to development that only serves to generate quick, fleeting influxes of cash.

So to all the RNG-gamble-box supporters; you're absolutely correct: These boxes don't "kill" games in and of themselves, but they do kill MMO's by detracting/distracting development away from new playable content that will sustain an MMO for years.

And none of us who are against the boxes want to see ESO go down this same negative, well-documented path. This path never has a happy ending for ANY MMO that has introduced these RNG-gamble-boxes.

And that's an easily researched fact.

New content requires more work then simple items. New content needs writers, new maps need terrain builders, clothing, armor, vanity pets require only one type of skill, so perhaps only one person. I do not believe that store content kills a game.

My opinion: a couple of the games you mentioned have issues far beyond what it sold in the store. Archage has one of the worst communities I have had to suffer. The idea for the game is good, but it promotes hostilities which casual gamers are not going to suffer. Star Wars, been a long time but....do they not have in-game lock boxes that require the purchase of keys?

I not sure what you consider an "easily researched fact."

Hey ZoS here is a great idea.

April Fool your player base into believing the next DLC is somewhere in a Crown Crate....

Some people just wanna watch the world burn..

shadoza wrote: »

Star Wars, been a long time but....do they not have in-game lock boxes that require the purchase of keys?

If you mean SWTOR... no, they have scam crates similiar to those ESO intends to implement. The only difference is in SWTOR you can sell everything from the boxes on the GTN (Galactic Trade Network), which makes it somewhat bearable as you can just buy the outfits/mounts/pets you want with ingame money without ever having to buy a crate.

Callous2208 wrote: »

ThePaleItalian wrote: »

Hey ZoS here is a great idea.

April Fool your player base into believing the next DLC is somewhere in a Crown Crate....

Some people just wanna watch the world burn..

I want to laugh...ah hell I am laughing. Though with human nature as it is, if they went a week or so before letting the cat outta the bag, they'd make a killing on crown boxes. Then they could just say they decided to release the dlc for free and play the hero. Damn...I hope they're not reading this right now.

I am saving this quote and screen shooting.... everyone is going to blame you for it >.<

Callous2208 wrote: »

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

Huh, huh, huh, huh, poppy ***!!!

I've bought gamble boxes in Dota and that game is one of the biggest games in the world still.

Even destiny does them now, if you think that game is going anywhere, you are greatly mistaken. Why do people think they are going to do anything other than make the studio more cash?? Because you've seen games release them before and then disappear. Well by that logic I could name every game to ever have existed without gamble boxes and claim they died out because of the lack of them!!

Basically those complaining are people that spend cash in the store already and don't want there to be anything that is out of reach. Which I totally understand by the way. But it's fair to say that they may be exaggerating just a tad when it comes to the "damage" they can cause the studio.

To some players, collecting all the cosmetics and stuff is a large part of the game for them which is why I understand the hatred toward the idea of having to gamble for the goods.

Not to be rude but...we're talking about MMOs. Neither of those are an mmorpg. DOTA is a huge success though, no doubt about it. If my friends are to be believed however, Destiny is meh and getting worse. I can't confirm that, I don't play it.

So am I understanding correctly that you believe RNG boxes have killed all MMO's that have gone that route before!?

MMO's are hard to kill and have a tendency to languish on for years despite small populations and infrequent updates. I have, in my experience, never seen an mmo benefit after these were added in any area besides the cash shop and new boxes. After personally playing at least 2 dozen titles in the past decade or better that introduced a gamble box, each one saw a huge decline in updates, bug fixes, and overall content additions one associates with a fun, we'll managed game. A game that has aspirations to keep a dedicated player base invested for the long haul. In talking with others and reading countless threads, articles from gaming sites, and even articles in trusted media outlets not affiliated with gaming, I am yet to see one instance of a gamble box system being hailed as a good addition to a game. I have also never heard of an mmo that flourished, had consistent new updates, and was widely considered a "good or great" game by the mmo community, after the gamble boxes were implemented. I have not heard of an mmo game that saw an influx of players or at least steady population after gamble boxes were introduced. I am unaware of an mmo with gamble boxes that is not considered second rate, p2w, dieing, poorly managed, going downhill fast. I have never been recommended a game with gamble boxes, but have instead been warned on every occasion to stay away because it's just another "*** lockbox f2p."

I guess I believe gamble boxes kill any chance of an mmo remaining a quality investment for my time or money, a sentiment that seems to be shared by the majority of folks who play mmorpgs. All of this of course is based on my own experience. Perhaps others think differently.

C'mon man. What is the difference between a lockbox in an MMO and a lockbox in a MOBA or shooter even?! Now I'm not saying I agree with these boxes, I just don't care about them at all, and understand the gaming company's get away with some serious amounts of shady business but all in all I believe that those purchasing them are ultimately getting exactly what they have been supporting.

If you honestly believe that over 2 dozen MMORPG's went under in just a decade, because the studio invested in RNG boxes, and ZOS, Bungie, Valve, Blizzard, Activision, even friggin EA etc. etc. etc. still implemented them despite this "fact", then I don't know what to say.

The boxes make a lot of money for the studios. This can not be denied. If you simply don't trust that the money goes back into development costs then that is your opinion and nothing else. And I'm not saying it does go back in, just that it remains to be seen.

Anyway, seriously now. You can't believe that all those games over that short time frame lapsed in development due to RNG boxes and not take into consideration the almost infinite other factors like hard ware upgrades that left engines for dust, the admittedly convoluted market, game mechanics, new IP's, and the list just goes on and on.

MMO's are content driven, progressive world's. Shooters and moba's are not. You could say that pvp/competition is their sole focus, that is the difference. That is why the boxes are not as detrimental or important. Again, I am not saying gamble boxes and the skinner box mentality was the sole reason these mmos died and I apologize if I did say that at some point. What is undeniable is that the boxes make money. People love to gamble and most if not all of the "cool" stuff in mmos gets shoved in there. This is a fact. Maybe eso will be the first not to shove all the goodies into the boxes, making it the only way to aquire them. Who knows. What I can tell you is that the overwhelming focus of an mmo post gamble boxes, is putting more stuff into gamble boxes and thinking of ways to make you buy more gamble boxes. They make money and it's a helluva lot easier to add new shinies to a box than it is to fix bugs and create content. That's the trend I've seen after all these years. Every time. Google "gamble boxes in mmos" or "skinner box mmo." You'll be overwhelmed with articles and forum threads about just how bad they are and what comes about after they are implemented. But maybe ESO will be different...maybe.

Side note. I get that this is most likely many people here's first MMO, and I sound like some loon. That's fine. I truly wish that ZoS proves me wrong and becomes the first MMO to introduce a gamble box system, and use the money for the betterment of the game long term. I really do. I was low balling earlier just to make a point, but I've probably played every mmo at least briefly, that's hit the market in over 10 years. In my opinion, all of the ones that introduced or already had gamble boxes, were terrible. Pitiful excuses for games that were built solely around their cash shops. ESO is the best mmo I've ever played. I hope it stays that way.

The Mystery Boxes from The Secret World (TSW) contain only items that can be found in the game or purchased in the store. So it can be done well. I think if players were to focus on what they do and do not want to see in a loot box, this issue might being going in a better direction.

summitxho wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

This.

And from my own personal experience with Acheage, RIFT, Star Wars Galaxies, and Lord of the Rings Online; none of the RNG-gamble-boxes "killed" the MMO's, but they have suffered mightily since their inception.

The four MMO's I listed above had regular updates over their lifespans. New areas to explore, new Quests/Dungeons/Raids introduced regularly. Overall, content kept getting released at an easily consumed and welcome rate.

Now, as happens with all MMO's, over time their populations started to decline. With this natural decline of population, there are (obviously) less players buying new DLC/Content that the Devs designed and released. While the DLC would sell well, there was a definite, small loss of revenue due to player population decline. However; player population would spike upward whenever new DLC/Content was released, as older players would return to these games for the newest DLC/Content. But as happens, player populations still decline. So they introduced their versions of the RNG-gamble-boxes-for-Real-Cash to try to get some of that naturally lost revenue back into the game. For a small window of time, cash flowed back into those MMO's, even if the populations never saw any growth from new players. The player loss did plateau for a small window of time though.

But inevitably, those populations started dropping off again, as happens in MMO's.

So the developers started putting more and more exclusive items into those RNG-gamble-boxes, and the items got designed to be ever more powerful, even outstripping the vaunted "Raid" and other "end-game" gear. And each time they introduced newer, more-exclusive items, the MMO's would see a spike in RNG-gamble-box sales. But the populations kept declining.

Eventually; due to monetary concerns, development time and effort went from developing new content as well as RNG-gamble-box-items to developing new RNG-gamble-box-items in lieu of developing new content.

As a result, there was less and less new playable content coming out of those developers as focus was placed on developing new RNG-gamble-box-items, and the player population declines started increasing at a compounded and faster rate. Players wanted and begged for new content. They/we even promised that we'd happily pay for new DLC and areas to explore.

But those developers were so caught in the struggle for immediate cash infusions, that they only increased production of RNG-gamble-box-items. But they never got the revenue because there weren't enough players left to buy them to stave off the loss of revenue.

Out of the four MMO's I listed, only one has "shut off the lights", and that's Star Wars Galaxies. LotRO, RIFT, and Archeage are still running, but the games are ghost towns. There are so few new players joining the games, that you could go weeks before seeing a new, low-level character. The only characters you see (when you see another character...), are players who have no problem spending money to buy their way to the "top". But even with those players, the populations have dropped off so much, that you could run around for hours before running into another player.

When asking several former Guildies why they left, even when major gaming publications ask why players are leaving those games, the answers are hauntingly familiar and nearly identical; those players left/are-leaving because it has been ages since anything new dropped as playable content.

They left because the focus of the developers went from developing new, rich content for the players; to developing RNG-gamble-box-items for the immediate influx of cash.

I fully understand that games in-general, and especially MMO's, are businesses that need to make money to survive. But these RNG-gamble-boxes are cancer to MMO games. They may work well for annual titles like Destiny or Call of Duty or CS:GO, but MMO's survive due to having deep, rich, and regular infusions of content.

These RNG-gamble-boxes may not "kill" MMO's outright, but there's simple facts and a well documented history of those same boxes being the "beginning of the end" for MMO's, as they take the focus away from development that sustains an MMO, to development that only serves to generate quick, fleeting influxes of cash.

So to all the RNG-gamble-box supporters; you're absolutely correct: These boxes don't "kill" games in and of themselves, but they do kill MMO's by detracting/distracting development away from new playable content that will sustain an MMO for years.

And none of us who are against the boxes want to see ESO go down this same negative, well-documented path. This path never has a happy ending for ANY MMO that has introduced these RNG-gamble-boxes.

And that's an easily researched fact.

New content requires more work then simple items. New content needs writers, new maps need terrain builders, clothing, armor, vanity pets require only one type of skill, so perhaps only one person. I do not believe that store content kills a game.

My opinion: a couple of the games you mentioned have issues far beyond what it sold in the store. Archage has one of the worst communities I have had to suffer. The idea for the game is good, but it promotes hostilities which casual gamers are not going to suffer. Star Wars, been a long time but....do they not have in-game lock boxes that require the purchase of keys?

I not sure what you consider an "easily researched fact."

I'd say anything you can Google and immediately get 1billion links saying the same thing we are is an easily researched fact. But here's the issue, it's not just a couple of games he listed. It's all the games I listed and all the games everyone else listed. What you won't be able to find is someone who witnessed the opposite after their favorite mmo added gamble boxes. This was the common theme.

I tried googling it, and did not come up with those results, in fact the only ones that did come up with 3 threads about ESO, and another one a story about how a teenager lost all his money to these boxes. My google is not strong admittedly however, I googled "Is gambling boxes bad for video games"

We understand all those games listed are in decline, what is still in doubt is that the crates is what cause this decline, or was the game in decline already and used the boxes to generate some last ditch revenue? What is also in doubt is if gambling boxes can co-exist in a functional game, ok lets say your right that currently it has not, well if someone does manage to succeed, that's going to put that much more money into the game, which is a win. There are many reasons why a game will decline in membership, some in part to the developers, some in part to the natural progression of technology.

What does not make sense to me is taking a company which invests millions of dollars into a game, have years before another Elder Scrolls series is around to compete with it, and a fan loyal customer base not just for the MMO, but as an elder scrolls title, why would they deliberately ruin this by introducing gambling crates if its as negative of an impact as what you guys are suggesting? Why does this lady keep being hired? Do you seriously think ZOS is that inept at running their business? OK, they wanna go for the easy money and turn gambling crates into their main source of income, lets take the worst case scenario, but that must mean that they have an end date a lot sooner than other people here think if they make that choice, and gambling crates or not that would not change anything, they either grab the cash or they dont, the decision has already been made to invest less into the game. Therefore its not the gambling crate which is cratering the game, but ZOS itself, so gambling crates or no gambling crates this game would be pooched.

You may be right. I don't know any more. With eastern mmos it's definitely a purposeful addition, to milk a player base then fade off into other business ventures. There is no long term goal or personal pride with developers. Perhaps western titles have decided to follow suit and grab the quick buck and split. Or maybe it is just a condition and not a cause, meaning ESO is already in its death throes. I guess none of us can really be sure.

JimT722 wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

Huh, huh, huh, huh, poppy ***!!!

I've bought gamble boxes in Dota and that game is one of the biggest games in the world still.

Even destiny does them now, if you think that game is going anywhere, you are greatly mistaken. Why do people think they are going to do anything other than make the studio more cash?? Because you've seen games release them before and then disappear. Well by that logic I could name every game to ever have existed without gamble boxes and claim they died out because of the lack of them!!

Basically those complaining are people that spend cash in the store already and don't want there to be anything that is out of reach. Which I totally understand by the way. But it's fair to say that they may be exaggerating just a tad when it comes to the "damage" they can cause the studio.

To some players, collecting all the cosmetics and stuff is a large part of the game for them which is why I understand the hatred toward the idea of having to gamble for the goods.

Not to be rude but...we're talking about MMOs. Neither of those are an mmorpg. DOTA is a huge success though, no doubt about it. If my friends are to be believed however, Destiny is meh and getting worse. I can't confirm that, I don't play it.

So am I understanding correctly that you believe RNG boxes have killed all MMO's that have gone that route before!?

MMO's are hard to kill and have a tendency to languish on for years despite small populations and infrequent updates. I have, in my experience, never seen an mmo benefit after these were added in any area besides the cash shop and new boxes. After personally playing at least 2 dozen titles in the past decade or better that introduced a gamble box, each one saw a huge decline in updates, bug fixes, and overall content additions one associates with a fun, we'll managed game. A game that has aspirations to keep a dedicated player base invested for the long haul. In talking with others and reading countless threads, articles from gaming sites, and even articles in trusted media outlets not affiliated with gaming, I am yet to see one instance of a gamble box system being hailed as a good addition to a game. I have also never heard of an mmo that flourished, had consistent new updates, and was widely considered a "good or great" game by the mmo community, after the gamble boxes were implemented. I have not heard of an mmo game that saw an influx of players or at least steady population after gamble boxes were introduced. I am unaware of an mmo with gamble boxes that is not considered second rate, p2w, dieing, poorly managed, going downhill fast. I have never been recommended a game with gamble boxes, but have instead been warned on every occasion to stay away because it's just another "*** lockbox f2p."

I guess I believe gamble boxes kill any chance of an mmo remaining a quality investment for my time or money, a sentiment that seems to be shared by the majority of folks who play mmorpgs. All of this of course is based on my own experience. Perhaps others think differently.

C'mon man. What is the difference between a lockbox in an MMO and a lockbox in a MOBA or shooter even?! Now I'm not saying I agree with these boxes, I just don't care about them at all, and understand the gaming company's get away with some serious amounts of shady business but all in all I believe that those purchasing them are ultimately getting exactly what they have been supporting.

If you honestly believe that over 2 dozen MMORPG's went under in just a decade, because the studio invested in RNG boxes, and ZOS, Bungie, Valve, Blizzard, Activision, even friggin EA etc. etc. etc. still implemented them despite this "fact", then I don't know what to say.

The boxes make a lot of money for the studios. This can not be denied. If you simply don't trust that the money goes back into development costs then that is your opinion and nothing else. And I'm not saying it does go back in, just that it remains to be seen.

Anyway, seriously now. You can't believe that all those games over that short time frame lapsed in development due to RNG boxes and not take into consideration the almost infinite other factors like hard ware upgrades that left engines for dust, the admittedly convoluted market, game mechanics, new IP's, and the list just goes on and on.

MMO's are content driven, progressive world's. Shooters and moba's are not. You could say that pvp/competition is their sole focus, that is the difference. That is why the boxes are not as detrimental or important. Again, I am not saying gamble boxes and the skinner box mentality was the sole reason these mmos died and I apologize if I did say that at some point. What is undeniable is that the boxes make money. People love to gamble and most if not all of the "cool" stuff in mmos gets shoved in there. This is a fact. Maybe eso will be the first not to shove all the goodies into the boxes, making it the only way to aquire them. Who knows. What I can tell you is that the overwhelming focus of an mmo post gamble boxes, is putting more stuff into gamble boxes and thinking of ways to make you buy more gamble boxes. They make money and it's a helluva lot easier to add new shinies to a box than it is to fix bugs and create content. That's the trend I've seen after all these years. Every time. Google "gamble boxes in mmos" or "skinner box mmo." You'll be overwhelmed with articles and forum threads about just how bad they are and what comes about after they are implemented. But maybe ESO will be different...maybe.

Side note. I get that this is most likely many people here's first MMO, and I sound like some loon. That's fine. I truly wish that ZoS proves me wrong and becomes the first MMO to introduce a gamble box system, and use the money for the betterment of the game long term. I really do. I was low balling earlier just to make a point, but I've probably played every mmo at least briefly, that's hit the market in over 10 years. In my opinion, all of the ones that introduced or already had gamble boxes, were terrible. Pitiful excuses for games that were built solely around their cash shops. ESO is the best mmo I've ever played. I hope it stays that way.

The Mystery Boxes from The Secret World (TSW) contain only items that can be found in the game or purchased in the store. So it can be done well. I think if players were to focus on what they do and do not want to see in a loot box, this issue might being going in a better direction.

If everything was available in game or store for direct purchase, that would be acceptable. They won't because I believe their goal is to have many exclusives to pull people into the scam that is these crates.

Edit. People did voice their concerns with what was in them when they were on pts. They were ignored.

Yup. But who knows, maybe they'll change their minds. Wonder if there could be some middle ground. Maybe no exclusives, or maybe...tell us the odds of rolling the rare stuff. They won't do that though. If you knew the odds, you wouldn't waste your money.

Callous2208 wrote: »

summitxho wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

This.

And from my own personal experience with Acheage, RIFT, Star Wars Galaxies, and Lord of the Rings Online; none of the RNG-gamble-boxes "killed" the MMO's, but they have suffered mightily since their inception.

The four MMO's I listed above had regular updates over their lifespans. New areas to explore, new Quests/Dungeons/Raids introduced regularly. Overall, content kept getting released at an easily consumed and welcome rate.

Now, as happens with all MMO's, over time their populations started to decline. With this natural decline of population, there are (obviously) less players buying new DLC/Content that the Devs designed and released. While the DLC would sell well, there was a definite, small loss of revenue due to player population decline. However; player population would spike upward whenever new DLC/Content was released, as older players would return to these games for the newest DLC/Content. But as happens, player populations still decline. So they introduced their versions of the RNG-gamble-boxes-for-Real-Cash to try to get some of that naturally lost revenue back into the game. For a small window of time, cash flowed back into those MMO's, even if the populations never saw any growth from new players. The player loss did plateau for a small window of time though.

But inevitably, those populations started dropping off again, as happens in MMO's.

So the developers started putting more and more exclusive items into those RNG-gamble-boxes, and the items got designed to be ever more powerful, even outstripping the vaunted "Raid" and other "end-game" gear. And each time they introduced newer, more-exclusive items, the MMO's would see a spike in RNG-gamble-box sales. But the populations kept declining.

Eventually; due to monetary concerns, development time and effort went from developing new content as well as RNG-gamble-box-items to developing new RNG-gamble-box-items in lieu of developing new content.

As a result, there was less and less new playable content coming out of those developers as focus was placed on developing new RNG-gamble-box-items, and the player population declines started increasing at a compounded and faster rate. Players wanted and begged for new content. They/we even promised that we'd happily pay for new DLC and areas to explore.

But those developers were so caught in the struggle for immediate cash infusions, that they only increased production of RNG-gamble-box-items. But they never got the revenue because there weren't enough players left to buy them to stave off the loss of revenue.

Out of the four MMO's I listed, only one has "shut off the lights", and that's Star Wars Galaxies. LotRO, RIFT, and Archeage are still running, but the games are ghost towns. There are so few new players joining the games, that you could go weeks before seeing a new, low-level character. The only characters you see (when you see another character...), are players who have no problem spending money to buy their way to the "top". But even with those players, the populations have dropped off so much, that you could run around for hours before running into another player.

When asking several former Guildies why they left, even when major gaming publications ask why players are leaving those games, the answers are hauntingly familiar and nearly identical; those players left/are-leaving because it has been ages since anything new dropped as playable content.

They left because the focus of the developers went from developing new, rich content for the players; to developing RNG-gamble-box-items for the immediate influx of cash.

I fully understand that games in-general, and especially MMO's, are businesses that need to make money to survive. But these RNG-gamble-boxes are cancer to MMO games. They may work well for annual titles like Destiny or Call of Duty or CS:GO, but MMO's survive due to having deep, rich, and regular infusions of content.

These RNG-gamble-boxes may not "kill" MMO's outright, but there's simple facts and a well documented history of those same boxes being the "beginning of the end" for MMO's, as they take the focus away from development that sustains an MMO, to development that only serves to generate quick, fleeting influxes of cash.

So to all the RNG-gamble-box supporters; you're absolutely correct: These boxes don't "kill" games in and of themselves, but they do kill MMO's by detracting/distracting development away from new playable content that will sustain an MMO for years.

And none of us who are against the boxes want to see ESO go down this same negative, well-documented path. This path never has a happy ending for ANY MMO that has introduced these RNG-gamble-boxes.

And that's an easily researched fact.

New content requires more work then simple items. New content needs writers, new maps need terrain builders, clothing, armor, vanity pets require only one type of skill, so perhaps only one person. I do not believe that store content kills a game.

My opinion: a couple of the games you mentioned have issues far beyond what it sold in the store. Archage has one of the worst communities I have had to suffer. The idea for the game is good, but it promotes hostilities which casual gamers are not going to suffer. Star Wars, been a long time but....do they not have in-game lock boxes that require the purchase of keys?

I not sure what you consider an "easily researched fact."

I'd say anything you can Google and immediately get 1billion links saying the same thing we are is an easily researched fact. But here's the issue, it's not just a couple of games he listed. It's all the games I listed and all the games everyone else listed. What you won't be able to find is someone who witnessed the opposite after their favorite mmo added gamble boxes. This was the common theme.

I tried googling it, and did not come up with those results, in fact the only ones that did come up with 3 threads about ESO, and another one a story about how a teenager lost all his money to these boxes. My google is not strong admittedly however, I googled "Is gambling boxes bad for video games"

We understand all those games listed are in decline, what is still in doubt is that the crates is what cause this decline, or was the game in decline already and used the boxes to generate some last ditch revenue? What is also in doubt is if gambling boxes can co-exist in a functional game, ok lets say your right that currently it has not, well if someone does manage to succeed, that's going to put that much more money into the game, which is a win. There are many reasons why a game will decline in membership, some in part to the developers, some in part to the natural progression of technology.

What does not make sense to me is taking a company which invests millions of dollars into a game, have years before another Elder Scrolls series is around to compete with it, and a fan loyal customer base not just for the MMO, but as an elder scrolls title, why would they deliberately ruin this by introducing gambling crates if its as negative of an impact as what you guys are suggesting? Why does this lady keep being hired? Do you seriously think ZOS is that inept at running their business? OK, they wanna go for the easy money and turn gambling crates into their main source of income, lets take the worst case scenario, but that must mean that they have an end date a lot sooner than other people here think if they make that choice, and gambling crates or not that would not change anything, they either grab the cash or they dont, the decision has already been made to invest less into the game. Therefore its not the gambling crate which is cratering the game, but ZOS itself, so gambling crates or no gambling crates this game would be pooched.

You may be right. I don't know any more. With eastern mmos it's definitely a purposeful addition, to milk a player base then fade off into other business ventures. There is no long term goal or personal pride with developers. Perhaps western titles have decided to follow suit and grab the quick buck and split. Or maybe it is just a condition and not a cause, meaning ESO is already in its death throes. I guess none of us can really be sure.

That's pretty much it, none of us can really be sure, we can all make assumptions based on our own experience however, you obviously have more experience than I in online gaming, it just makes no sense to me as a business person either. End of the day, nothing wrong with different opinions, I hold my hope up high that ESO will do right by its customers. As a casual player elder scrolls titles are the only games I have ever come back to and spent considerable replay time in, I love this game, and I hope they continue to make money so I can continue to play the game. Right now I view it as in pretty good shape, came back to new DLC's, new updates which made the game more alive, everything is pretty good in my book.

Thank you for having a discussion without name calling and belittling by the way, its been appreciated, same goes for the others as well.

PAWS.