JimT722 wrote: »

summitxho wrote: »

BuddyAces wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

summitxho wrote: »

its the same people complaining about these in every thread, just a very passionate bunch is all. It either comes down to being against gambling, or being upset some cosmetic items are locked behind a gambling mechanic. Both have points as per their play style and how they enjoy the game, but it also sort of stinks of entitlement mentality, some people you just cannot make happy, that's life. The mentality that because I choose not to participate in something against my beliefs, you should not be able to take the chance to get it either I think is wrong, where I more believe in freedom of choice, if I want to spend crowns on a fun short lived gimmick, I worked hard to be able to make that choice. If people are threatening to quit over such a thing, I have a feeling they would leave the game over something eventually.

Once they are implemented, I will be very curious to see where this game goes, as for now I have faith in ZOS to run its business not the way one group wants it run, but to make money and keep rolling out new content. We will see.

If they succeed, they will be the first MMO to maintain a quality product after implementation of such systems. It will be interesting to see indeed. History would seem to show that it can't be done, or perhaps will not be done. These are businesses after all, and it is by far easier and more profitable to run a skinner box/gambling system, than it is to produce and maintain a fine product.

The gambling boxes are pretty irrelevant to whether they are producing a fine product. Just a bunch of costumes for you and your mount. That is like evaluating Hearthstone based on card backs.

Incorrect sir. You may have limited experience with mmorpgs and how this works however, I am not sure. The implementation of gambling boxes has never in the history of mmorpgs not soured the overall product as time passes. Content suffers, quality suffers. All focus and effort is put into new and creative ways to get you to gamble on these boxes. I realize this sounds farfetched or a bit over dramatic, but as I've said before, no other mmorpg to date has implemented such a feature and not suffered an extreme downturn in overall quality in every aspect except the cash shop. The marketing director ZOS hired, has worked on dozens of mmos in the same capacity, and each is widely considered to be a p2w title that is either dead or on life support. Gambling boxes, and how they shift a game developers focus, more often than not spell doom for that title. In the grander mmo community, it is seen as a last ditch effort to milk the remaining whales and loyal subscribers, as the game fades away into obscurity. People see gambling boxes, people roll their eyes and say here we go again. Then they leave the game and recommend that others never even start. I wish this weren't so. I wish ZOS would find a way to do things differently. Only time will tell. But surely you can see, given the precedence that's been set, why people are a bit uneasy about this subject.

Quoting you so in case some one missed it the first time. I don't understand how normal sensible people can read this and not grasp the concept no matter how many times they are told by all sorts of different people.

Show me then, give me a game that you can prove was put out of business due to gambling crates that attracts the same sort of diversified customer and casual player base as ESO? That has the same passion and following of its lore over the years it has released titles. If you want to make accusations, back it up, I have a feeling I will find these games did not collapse due to gambling crates, but a multitude of reasons, but hey I am willing to look and admit if I am wrong.

Using the argument "All MMO's who have gone this way have gone downhill" seems silly to me. First of all how many MMO's are we using as a sample size? Anyone? Just "all of them" how many is this? 10? 100? 1000? sample size is very important for accurate statistics. Secondly, is ZOS implementing these in the same way? I understand they are not, so then we just assume that ZOS will follow the others into doom seems like flawed logic again, why would a business do this, its like following the Sears business model opening a new store, would that make sense as a business? Follow the failures? Give me a break.... Do you really believe ZOS is that inept and want to be bankrupt? Does not make sense at all in a business perspective, more likely fear mongering. Third, this is not a typical MMO, not everyone here plays it for being an MMO, there are many people here because its Elder Scrolls and has come after Skyrim, like it or not we have a very unique assortment of players and why they are playing, so using a cookie cutter approach to something so unique is again off IMO.

Your right, many play this game because it's Elder Scrolls. I have played since Morrowind. However, I played most of the MMO's that the newly hired marketing person has worked on. I wouldn't recommend a single one.

As for success, it will be financially. The game will focus on getting as much money from people as they can in the short term, because most won't play it very long. It won't kill the game, but the game will not be in a good place for the loyal player base.

That presupposes that those who buy the crates aren't part of "the loyal player base". I think that's an unfounded presumption. I'd be more likely to define "the loyal player base" as those players who stick with the game through thick and thin, and who play the game because of what they like and don't quit because something voluntary is introduced that they don't like.

JimT722 wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

JimT722 wrote: »

summitxho wrote: »

BuddyAces wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

summitxho wrote: »

its the same people complaining about these in every thread, just a very passionate bunch is all. It either comes down to being against gambling, or being upset some cosmetic items are locked behind a gambling mechanic. Both have points as per their play style and how they enjoy the game, but it also sort of stinks of entitlement mentality, some people you just cannot make happy, that's life. The mentality that because I choose not to participate in something against my beliefs, you should not be able to take the chance to get it either I think is wrong, where I more believe in freedom of choice, if I want to spend crowns on a fun short lived gimmick, I worked hard to be able to make that choice. If people are threatening to quit over such a thing, I have a feeling they would leave the game over something eventually.

Once they are implemented, I will be very curious to see where this game goes, as for now I have faith in ZOS to run its business not the way one group wants it run, but to make money and keep rolling out new content. We will see.

If they succeed, they will be the first MMO to maintain a quality product after implementation of such systems. It will be interesting to see indeed. History would seem to show that it can't be done, or perhaps will not be done. These are businesses after all, and it is by far easier and more profitable to run a skinner box/gambling system, than it is to produce and maintain a fine product.

The gambling boxes are pretty irrelevant to whether they are producing a fine product. Just a bunch of costumes for you and your mount. That is like evaluating Hearthstone based on card backs.

Incorrect sir. You may have limited experience with mmorpgs and how this works however, I am not sure. The implementation of gambling boxes has never in the history of mmorpgs not soured the overall product as time passes. Content suffers, quality suffers. All focus and effort is put into new and creative ways to get you to gamble on these boxes. I realize this sounds farfetched or a bit over dramatic, but as I've said before, no other mmorpg to date has implemented such a feature and not suffered an extreme downturn in overall quality in every aspect except the cash shop. The marketing director ZOS hired, has worked on dozens of mmos in the same capacity, and each is widely considered to be a p2w title that is either dead or on life support. Gambling boxes, and how they shift a game developers focus, more often than not spell doom for that title. In the grander mmo community, it is seen as a last ditch effort to milk the remaining whales and loyal subscribers, as the game fades away into obscurity. People see gambling boxes, people roll their eyes and say here we go again. Then they leave the game and recommend that others never even start. I wish this weren't so. I wish ZOS would find a way to do things differently. Only time will tell. But surely you can see, given the precedence that's been set, why people are a bit uneasy about this subject.

Quoting you so in case some one missed it the first time. I don't understand how normal sensible people can read this and not grasp the concept no matter how many times they are told by all sorts of different people.

Show me then, give me a game that you can prove was put out of business due to gambling crates that attracts the same sort of diversified customer and casual player base as ESO? That has the same passion and following of its lore over the years it has released titles. If you want to make accusations, back it up, I have a feeling I will find these games did not collapse due to gambling crates, but a multitude of reasons, but hey I am willing to look and admit if I am wrong.

Using the argument "All MMO's who have gone this way have gone downhill" seems silly to me. First of all how many MMO's are we using as a sample size? Anyone? Just "all of them" how many is this? 10? 100? 1000? sample size is very important for accurate statistics. Secondly, is ZOS implementing these in the same way? I understand they are not, so then we just assume that ZOS will follow the others into doom seems like flawed logic again, why would a business do this, its like following the Sears business model opening a new store, would that make sense as a business? Follow the failures? Give me a break.... Do you really believe ZOS is that inept and want to be bankrupt? Does not make sense at all in a business perspective, more likely fear mongering. Third, this is not a typical MMO, not everyone here plays it for being an MMO, there are many people here because its Elder Scrolls and has come after Skyrim, like it or not we have a very unique assortment of players and why they are playing, so using a cookie cutter approach to something so unique is again off IMO.

Your right, many play this game because it's Elder Scrolls. I have played since Morrowind. However, I played most of the MMO's that the newly hired marketing person has worked on. I wouldn't recommend a single one.

As for success, it will be financially. The game will focus on getting as much money from people as they can in the short term, because most won't play it very long. It won't kill the game, but the game will not be in a good place for the loyal player base.

That presupposes that those who buy the crates aren't part of "the loyal player base". I think that's an unfounded presumption. I'd be more likely to define "the loyal player base" as those players who stick with the game through thick and thin, and who play the game because of what they like and don't quit because something voluntary is introduced that they don't like.

The crates are voluntary. The damage is not. I have played since May 2014. I'd say that is loyal. All loyalty has limits. Buy 2 Play in its current form I was willing to support. The crates are not, as I have played far to many, and I have zero faith that this game won't get worse with the marketing person they hired.

If you touch a hot stove and it burns you, do you keep touching it? No, you learn from the experience and avoid getting burned.

Then why is Zos touching the hot stove with this lady you all speak of then? We have to lose out on a game, ZOS has to lose out on real world money, the reason for being in business in the first place. If its a fact gambling crates torpedo a game and this lady is responsible, why does she keep getting hired by business who has a whole heck of a lot more insight and stakes than we do? Why are they so willing to touch that hot stove if you are all so assured this is whats going to happen? I am thinking its because there must have been something that worked, another angle of perspective or else a business would not hire her. With a follow up Elder scrolls not until what, 2018? I cannot see how a business would be looking for fast cash and then a quick end, this is the only elder scrolls we will get for some time (except for a remastered skyrim which I am personally not interested in as I played that game to death already), there is a lot of loyalty to the series.

As with any business, you hire the best person to do the job you are hiring for. She fits that bill. Take that however you want to.

**edited because I type too fast

JimT722 wrote: »

summitxho wrote: »

JimT722 wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

JimT722 wrote: »

summitxho wrote: »

BuddyAces wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

summitxho wrote: »

its the same people complaining about these in every thread, just a very passionate bunch is all. It either comes down to being against gambling, or being upset some cosmetic items are locked behind a gambling mechanic. Both have points as per their play style and how they enjoy the game, but it also sort of stinks of entitlement mentality, some people you just cannot make happy, that's life. The mentality that because I choose not to participate in something against my beliefs, you should not be able to take the chance to get it either I think is wrong, where I more believe in freedom of choice, if I want to spend crowns on a fun short lived gimmick, I worked hard to be able to make that choice. If people are threatening to quit over such a thing, I have a feeling they would leave the game over something eventually.

Once they are implemented, I will be very curious to see where this game goes, as for now I have faith in ZOS to run its business not the way one group wants it run, but to make money and keep rolling out new content. We will see.

If they succeed, they will be the first MMO to maintain a quality product after implementation of such systems. It will be interesting to see indeed. History would seem to show that it can't be done, or perhaps will not be done. These are businesses after all, and it is by far easier and more profitable to run a skinner box/gambling system, than it is to produce and maintain a fine product.

The gambling boxes are pretty irrelevant to whether they are producing a fine product. Just a bunch of costumes for you and your mount. That is like evaluating Hearthstone based on card backs.

Incorrect sir. You may have limited experience with mmorpgs and how this works however, I am not sure. The implementation of gambling boxes has never in the history of mmorpgs not soured the overall product as time passes. Content suffers, quality suffers. All focus and effort is put into new and creative ways to get you to gamble on these boxes. I realize this sounds farfetched or a bit over dramatic, but as I've said before, no other mmorpg to date has implemented such a feature and not suffered an extreme downturn in overall quality in every aspect except the cash shop. The marketing director ZOS hired, has worked on dozens of mmos in the same capacity, and each is widely considered to be a p2w title that is either dead or on life support. Gambling boxes, and how they shift a game developers focus, more often than not spell doom for that title. In the grander mmo community, it is seen as a last ditch effort to milk the remaining whales and loyal subscribers, as the game fades away into obscurity. People see gambling boxes, people roll their eyes and say here we go again. Then they leave the game and recommend that others never even start. I wish this weren't so. I wish ZOS would find a way to do things differently. Only time will tell. But surely you can see, given the precedence that's been set, why people are a bit uneasy about this subject.

Quoting you so in case some one missed it the first time. I don't understand how normal sensible people can read this and not grasp the concept no matter how many times they are told by all sorts of different people.

Show me then, give me a game that you can prove was put out of business due to gambling crates that attracts the same sort of diversified customer and casual player base as ESO? That has the same passion and following of its lore over the years it has released titles. If you want to make accusations, back it up, I have a feeling I will find these games did not collapse due to gambling crates, but a multitude of reasons, but hey I am willing to look and admit if I am wrong.

Using the argument "All MMO's who have gone this way have gone downhill" seems silly to me. First of all how many MMO's are we using as a sample size? Anyone? Just "all of them" how many is this? 10? 100? 1000? sample size is very important for accurate statistics. Secondly, is ZOS implementing these in the same way? I understand they are not, so then we just assume that ZOS will follow the others into doom seems like flawed logic again, why would a business do this, its like following the Sears business model opening a new store, would that make sense as a business? Follow the failures? Give me a break.... Do you really believe ZOS is that inept and want to be bankrupt? Does not make sense at all in a business perspective, more likely fear mongering. Third, this is not a typical MMO, not everyone here plays it for being an MMO, there are many people here because its Elder Scrolls and has come after Skyrim, like it or not we have a very unique assortment of players and why they are playing, so using a cookie cutter approach to something so unique is again off IMO.

Your right, many play this game because it's Elder Scrolls. I have played since Morrowind. However, I played most of the MMO's that the newly hired marketing person has worked on. I wouldn't recommend a single one.

As for success, it will be financially. The game will focus on getting as much money from people as they can in the short term, because most won't play it very long. It won't kill the game, but the game will not be in a good place for the loyal player base.

That presupposes that those who buy the crates aren't part of "the loyal player base". I think that's an unfounded presumption. I'd be more likely to define "the loyal player base" as those players who stick with the game through thick and thin, and who play the game because of what they like and don't quit because something voluntary is introduced that they don't like.

The crates are voluntary. The damage is not. I have played since May 2014. I'd say that is loyal. All loyalty has limits. Buy 2 Play in its current form I was willing to support. The crates are not, as I have played far to many, and I have zero faith that this game won't get worse with the marketing person they hired.

If you touch a hot stove and it burns you, do you keep touching it? No, you learn from the experience and avoid getting burned.

Then why is Zos touching the hot stove with this lady you all speak of then? We have to lose out on a game, ZOS has to lose out on real world money, the reason for being in business in the first place. If its a fact gambling crates torpedo a game and this lady is responsible, why does she keep getting hired by business who has a whole heck of a lot more insight and stakes than we do? Why are they so willing to touch that hot stove if you are all so assured this is whats going to happen? I am thinking its because there must have been something that worked, another angle of perspective or else a business would not hire her. With a follow up Elder scrolls not until what, 2018? I cannot see how a business would be looking for fast cash and then a quick end, this is the only elder scrolls we will get for some time (except for a remastered skyrim which I am personally not interested in as I played that game to death already), there is a lot of loyalty to the series.

I believe this move ties into Matt Firor's interview on one Tamriel. He states that long term players don't really exist anymore. That is why they are doing this. To increase finances through milking people before they move on. If the long term players are not the ones to suffer from their changes in marketing strategy, this will be a first in my experience.

I used to recommend this mmo to my friends and family. With the direction it's going I never could. If they fell into these scams I would feel awful.

Is he right though? I think he is, not that there will not be long term players, just those that are will not pay the bills to keep this game afloat either, its a sad thought, but I cannot help but think that's reality. I think an MMO has a shelf life, and a big part of that shelf life is not only what is going on with the game itself, but what new games are on the hoizon to steal player base from. You can only play one game at a time, and your playing time most likely will be spent on playing whatever one you will be into most at that time, that will not always be ESO, just like it was not always mario brothers 3, we all move on with the new and shiny toys, some quicker than others, and there is nothing wrong with that as we play games to be entertained. Might as well make ESO as good as it can be in the mean time, and I just dont see how crates hurt that, yes some will not have access to the items they want, yes some will leave, but if the net result is more money would that not be a good thing? Why would they make this move if they felt it was not going to bring in more money?

If they d not use that revenue to keep rolling out content, yes that's a problem, but that's a separate entity altogether and if they do go that route, this game was doomed not because of crates, but because of mismanagement of its customer base. Crates do not create greed, that greed would have been their first.

So if he is in fact right, that these games have a shelf life, I say a smart business decision would be to make as much cash as you can while you have a good player base, and use that cash to keep rolling out content until its not financially feasible to do so anymore. I accept that as a player personally.

mommadani907 wrote: »

FLuFFyxMuFFiN wrote: »

mommadani907 wrote: »

As with any business, you hire the best person to do the job you are hiring for. She fits that bill. Take that however you want to.

**edited because I type too fast

It really says a lot when you see that she worked on a few mobile games. Not sure if she worked on a bunch of games because she was good or that she had to constantly switch to another game after she ruined the previous one.

I think, if her professional reputation was she burned games to the ground, that gaming companies would not continue to hire her because of what a risk she would be. I think, her professional reputation must say something else. I also think that ZOS hired her for a reason, to do a specific job, and that is what is going to happen. I think if we take a step to the side we can view this differently, as in they know what they are doing.

That could be reversed too. She could have a reputation for making a company a lot of money with cash shops but ultimately ruins the overall health of the game. I strongly believe that ZOS hired her for one purpose and that purpose was to make money by any means necessary.

Technically those games aren't ruined. They still make money, enough to keep the lights on anyways. The problem, as many others have pointed out time and time again, is that the game spends more and more time on these things and other areas get neglected.

When these things are released they bring in a massive influx in cash because people like gambling. The main huge problem with these things are that the people in charge see this and think it's the way to go. More focus is put on selling more crates. They will not go out and hire more devs to help out with the game. When content starts getting crappier and crappier people are going to leave which means less money. In turn the powers that be are noticing a revenue drop and start shoving more "enticing" items into these crates (hence more dev time spent on crates).

Then you also have the problem of the stigma around these boxes. When people who haven't played the game before see that it goes the way of the Box, they sure as hell will not come pouring in. The game gets branded as "one of those games again."

Tandor wrote: »

JimT722 wrote: »

summitxho wrote: »

BuddyAces wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

summitxho wrote: »

its the same people complaining about these in every thread, just a very passionate bunch is all. It either comes down to being against gambling, or being upset some cosmetic items are locked behind a gambling mechanic. Both have points as per their play style and how they enjoy the game, but it also sort of stinks of entitlement mentality, some people you just cannot make happy, that's life. The mentality that because I choose not to participate in something against my beliefs, you should not be able to take the chance to get it either I think is wrong, where I more believe in freedom of choice, if I want to spend crowns on a fun short lived gimmick, I worked hard to be able to make that choice. If people are threatening to quit over such a thing, I have a feeling they would leave the game over something eventually.

Once they are implemented, I will be very curious to see where this game goes, as for now I have faith in ZOS to run its business not the way one group wants it run, but to make money and keep rolling out new content. We will see.

If they succeed, they will be the first MMO to maintain a quality product after implementation of such systems. It will be interesting to see indeed. History would seem to show that it can't be done, or perhaps will not be done. These are businesses after all, and it is by far easier and more profitable to run a skinner box/gambling system, than it is to produce and maintain a fine product.

The gambling boxes are pretty irrelevant to whether they are producing a fine product. Just a bunch of costumes for you and your mount. That is like evaluating Hearthstone based on card backs.

Incorrect sir. You may have limited experience with mmorpgs and how this works however, I am not sure. The implementation of gambling boxes has never in the history of mmorpgs not soured the overall product as time passes. Content suffers, quality suffers. All focus and effort is put into new and creative ways to get you to gamble on these boxes. I realize this sounds farfetched or a bit over dramatic, but as I've said before, no other mmorpg to date has implemented such a feature and not suffered an extreme downturn in overall quality in every aspect except the cash shop. The marketing director ZOS hired, has worked on dozens of mmos in the same capacity, and each is widely considered to be a p2w title that is either dead or on life support. Gambling boxes, and how they shift a game developers focus, more often than not spell doom for that title. In the grander mmo community, it is seen as a last ditch effort to milk the remaining whales and loyal subscribers, as the game fades away into obscurity. People see gambling boxes, people roll their eyes and say here we go again. Then they leave the game and recommend that others never even start. I wish this weren't so. I wish ZOS would find a way to do things differently. Only time will tell. But surely you can see, given the precedence that's been set, why people are a bit uneasy about this subject.

Quoting you so in case some one missed it the first time. I don't understand how normal sensible people can read this and not grasp the concept no matter how many times they are told by all sorts of different people.

Show me then, give me a game that you can prove was put out of business due to gambling crates that attracts the same sort of diversified customer and casual player base as ESO? That has the same passion and following of its lore over the years it has released titles. If you want to make accusations, back it up, I have a feeling I will find these games did not collapse due to gambling crates, but a multitude of reasons, but hey I am willing to look and admit if I am wrong.

Using the argument "All MMO's who have gone this way have gone downhill" seems silly to me. First of all how many MMO's are we using as a sample size? Anyone? Just "all of them" how many is this? 10? 100? 1000? sample size is very important for accurate statistics. Secondly, is ZOS implementing these in the same way? I understand they are not, so then we just assume that ZOS will follow the others into doom seems like flawed logic again, why would a business do this, its like following the Sears business model opening a new store, would that make sense as a business? Follow the failures? Give me a break.... Do you really believe ZOS is that inept and want to be bankrupt? Does not make sense at all in a business perspective, more likely fear mongering. Third, this is not a typical MMO, not everyone here plays it for being an MMO, there are many people here because its Elder Scrolls and has come after Skyrim, like it or not we have a very unique assortment of players and why they are playing, so using a cookie cutter approach to something so unique is again off IMO.

Your right, many play this game because it's Elder Scrolls. I have played since Morrowind. However, I played most of the MMO's that the newly hired marketing person has worked on. I wouldn't recommend a single one.

As for success, it will be financially. The game will focus on getting as much money from people as they can in the short term, because most won't play it very long. It won't kill the game, but the game will not be in a good place for the loyal player base.

That presupposes that those who buy the crates aren't part of "the loyal player base". I think that's an unfounded presumption. I'd be more likely to define "the loyal player base" as those players who stick with the game through thick and thin, and who play the game because of what they like and don't quit because something voluntary is introduced that they don't like.

You have some serious issues when it comes to reading comprehension. The poster youre responding to was obviously speaking about players that stick with the game, in comparison to the players (whom the quoted was speaking of in the sentence just prior to the one you bolded for emphasis) whom wont stick around. So you either are unable to connect the dots or youre purposely trying to twist what was being said.

Sharee wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

As for your first question, I never said put out of business completely, but here is a small list of games that took a nosedive in quality after gamble box implementation: SWTOR, ARCHEAGE, LOTRO, TERA, VINDICTUS, NEVER WINTER, STAR TREK ONLINE, PWI AND EVERY TITLE UNDER THEIR BANNER, RUNESCAPE. ALL TITLES UNDER: AERIA GAMES, NEXXONN, TRION, NC SOFT, MY.COM.

This was due to a shift in focus after going to these systems, not the boxes themselves.

I think the main reason why people are concerned (and why i disagree with them) is that they are mixing up cause and effect.
It is not boxes that cause games to fail, it is failing games that implement boxes as a way to try and stay afloat. Boxes are a symptom, rather than the cause, of a game taking a nosedive.

However, that does not mean a developer couldn't implement these boxes in a healthy game, just to give players more options. A failing game may have to implement boxes to stay alive, but a healthy game implementing boxes does not suddenly become a failing one just because it did so. So unless there are more signs of TESO being in danger than just the boxes, i do not think there is a cause for concern for the game's future.

Not all those games were exactly failing when boxes were implemented. What does happen though is that populations do decrease in a very noticeable amount on EVERY single game that has implemented them. Everyone that has at least one working brain cell and has played an MMO for longer than week knows that MMO populations go up and down. This is a given whether it's due to summer or school or whatever. Just as much as that is known as a fact, so is a massive decline of player base following boxes.

Once these things are implemented they are not going away. When the population drops like it always does, how do you think they will make up for the loss of revenue? They'll have to make boxes more appealing to the folks that are still playing. I'm not saying that a week later we'll suddenly lose half the population but it will go down and down and down. Less people playing is less money to pay the bills so more effort is put into getting people to buy more boxes. They are a horrible idea and no game that has ever put them in has ever turned around for the better.

driosketch wrote: »

summitxho wrote: »

its the same people complaining about these in every thread, just a very passionate bunch is all. It either comes down to being against gambling, or being upset some cosmetic items are locked behind a gambling mechanic. Both have points as per their play style and how they enjoy the game, but it also sort of stinks of entitlement mentality, some people you just cannot make happy, that's life. The mentality that because I choose not to participate in something against my beliefs, you should not be able to take the chance to get it either I think is wrong, I more believe in freedom of choice. if I want to spend my worthless to me crowns on a fun short lived gimmick, well I worked hard to be able to make that choice, but to these people I am an idiot, kind of shows where the mentality is..... If people are threatening to quit over such a thing, I have a feeling they would leave the game over something eventually.

Once they are implemented, I will be very curious to see where this game goes, as for now I have faith in ZOS to run its business not the way one group wants it run, but to make money and keep rolling out new content. We will see.

You make some sweeping generalizations here. I followed the main feed back thread. These weren't whiny entiled players. These were regular subscribers. They were serious RPers, big market for cosmetics. These were players who get excited over the crown store showcase every month. They were members with community ambassador avatars. Players hand selected to test a pilot crown gifting program. Players who have been here since beta. Basically ZOS's best or most loyal customers, and they were pretty much universally against crown crates.

Obviously the majority of these players aren't going to quit over creates, but there's more grumbling in this section of the player base than usual. It's risking good customers for possible short term gains.

This reply-post seems to be implying that other customer who pay the same subscription and have also be here since BETA are not as good or loyal as the ones in your little group as described. Being the noisiest player does not make them the best customer in my opinion.

shadoza wrote: »

driosketch wrote: »

summitxho wrote: »

its the same people complaining about these in every thread, just a very passionate bunch is all. It either comes down to being against gambling, or being upset some cosmetic items are locked behind a gambling mechanic. Both have points as per their play style and how they enjoy the game, but it also sort of stinks of entitlement mentality, some people you just cannot make happy, that's life. The mentality that because I choose not to participate in something against my beliefs, you should not be able to take the chance to get it either I think is wrong, I more believe in freedom of choice. if I want to spend my worthless to me crowns on a fun short lived gimmick, well I worked hard to be able to make that choice, but to these people I am an idiot, kind of shows where the mentality is..... If people are threatening to quit over such a thing, I have a feeling they would leave the game over something eventually.

Once they are implemented, I will be very curious to see where this game goes, as for now I have faith in ZOS to run its business not the way one group wants it run, but to make money and keep rolling out new content. We will see.

You make some sweeping generalizations here. I followed the main feed back thread. These weren't whiny entiled players. These were regular subscribers. They were serious RPers, big market for cosmetics. These were players who get excited over the crown store showcase every month. They were members with community ambassador avatars. Players hand selected to test a pilot crown gifting program. Players who have been here since beta. Basically ZOS's best or most loyal customers, and they were pretty much universally against crown crates.

Obviously the majority of these players aren't going to quit over creates, but there's more grumbling in this section of the player base than usual. It's risking good customers for possible short term gains.

This reply-post seems to be implying that other customer who pay the same subscription and have also be here since BETA are not as good or loyal as the ones in your little group as described. Being the noisiest player does not make them the best customer in my opinion.

If you are one who has subbed since beta, how are you not a part of that customer group?

it probably wont be P2W , but certaintly a scum way to gather more revenue from gullible customer, but crown crate certaintly and probably a first step to become P2W or F2P

its shame they will tarnish they own reputation, after AMAZING launch of One Tamriel and Halloween event that certaintly step up to great direction

Zo$ just don't know when to stop...pls

They're not pay to win at all, but alot of players are like ticking time-bombs with this sort of thing.

shadoza wrote: »

driosketch wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

driosketch wrote: »

summitxho wrote: »

its the same people complaining about these in every thread, just a very passionate bunch is all. It either comes down to being against gambling, or being upset some cosmetic items are locked behind a gambling mechanic. Both have points as per their play style and how they enjoy the game, but it also sort of stinks of entitlement mentality, some people you just cannot make happy, that's life. The mentality that because I choose not to participate in something against my beliefs, you should not be able to take the chance to get it either I think is wrong, I more believe in freedom of choice. if I want to spend my worthless to me crowns on a fun short lived gimmick, well I worked hard to be able to make that choice, but to these people I am an idiot, kind of shows where the mentality is..... If people are threatening to quit over such a thing, I have a feeling they would leave the game over something eventually.

Once they are implemented, I will be very curious to see where this game goes, as for now I have faith in ZOS to run its business not the way one group wants it run, but to make money and keep rolling out new content. We will see.

You make some sweeping generalizations here. I followed the main feed back thread. These weren't whiny entiled players. These were regular subscribers. They were serious RPers, big market for cosmetics. These were players who get excited over the crown store showcase every month. They were members with community ambassador avatars. Players hand selected to test a pilot crown gifting program. Players who have been here since beta. Basically ZOS's best or most loyal customers, and they were pretty much universally against crown crates.

Obviously the majority of these players aren't going to quit over creates, but there's more grumbling in this section of the player base than usual. It's risking good customers for possible short term gains.

This reply-post seems to be implying that other customer who pay the same subscription and have also be here since BETA are not as good or loyal as the ones in your little group as described. Being the noisiest player does not make them the best customer in my opinion.

If you are one who has subbed since beta, how are you not a part of that customer group?

Because I am not a serious roll-player, I do not care overly much for cosmetics, and I am not a community ambassador...and I am not against the crown crates.

Okay, but that was not a list of characteristics of a single type of player. It was a list of several kinds of players, with some overlap, who spend money on the game.

But let me ask you, are you not against crates because you're excited for them, or because you're indifferent about the store in general? I get some are sick and tired of the negativity, but at the same time I think those who actually care about the cosmetics have a right to voice their concerns.

summitxho wrote: »

BuddyAces wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

BuddyAces wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

As for your first question, I never said put out of business completely, but here is a small list of games that took a nosedive in quality after gamble box implementation: SWTOR, ARCHEAGE, LOTRO, TERA, VINDICTUS, NEVER WINTER, STAR TREK ONLINE, PWI AND EVERY TITLE UNDER THEIR BANNER, RUNESCAPE. ALL TITLES UNDER: AERIA GAMES, NEXXONN, TRION, NC SOFT, MY.COM.

This was due to a shift in focus after going to these systems, not the boxes themselves.

I think the main reason why people are concerned (and why i disagree with them) is that they are mixing up cause and effect.
It is not boxes that cause games to fail, it is failing games that implement boxes as a way to try and stay afloat. Boxes are a symptom, rather than the cause, of a game taking a nosedive.

However, that does not mean a developer couldn't implement these boxes in a healthy game, just to give players more options. A failing game may have to implement boxes to stay alive, but a healthy game implementing boxes does not suddenly become a failing one just because it did so. So unless there are more signs of TESO being in danger than just the boxes, i do not think there is a cause for concern for the game's future.

Not all those games were exactly failing when boxes were implemented. What does happen though is that populations do decrease in a very noticeable amount on EVERY single game that has implemented them. Everyone that has at least one working brain cell and has played an MMO for longer than week knows that MMO populations go up and down. This is a given whether it's due to summer or school or whatever. Just as much as that is known as a fact, so is a massive decline of player base following boxes.

Massive decline of player base happens due to the game not being fun for them. As a result, the game loses funding, which the devs try to cover by selling boxes. So you see release of boxes at the same time as the decline in playerbase, but that's a correlation, not causality.

Also: you can not possibly know every game that ever implemented these boxes, nor can you possibly know whether all of them were failing prior to the box release or not(simply because companies keep sub numbers close to the chest). So please stop using that as an argument.

The thing that makes the game unfun are the crates, that's the thing, but not on the way you are saying. It's because of the development shift that causes content drought. That's why people leave, that's what make the game unfun. It is not "Oh no, RNG boxes, I'm totally out" for most people. It is after a year passes and the players have very little new content to enjoy (but hey, there are new mounts in the boxes!), that's when the population - that maybe was on slight decline before, which is natural - really takes the nose dive.

The development shift happens after they are added and are a "success", not instantly. It is because of how lucrative they are, and how much potential they have to become the main source of income in a MMO. And then, the majority of the investment goes back to them, because it's where the money is. Yes, they are usually added when games are in decline, but not as a way to "save them". They are added as a way to make as much money as possible during that decline.

Maybe that's not ESO's case, maybe ESO is not in decline and is adding the crates (and hired a person specialized on F2P transition) because of reasons unknown. Let's buy Matt's speech for a second and say that maybe they were added just like "something new" (which is not an easy claim to make given how they worked on PTS), and not as a last ditch effort to make as much money as they can before the game is abandoned and they move on to another project.
If that's the case, then why are they so consumer unfriendly? Why are 2/3 of the stuff in the crates exclusive to them? Why do you have to drop something five times to be able to buy something of the same tier? It is hard to believe that this is something for the players, really.

If this was a system being added for our benefit, it wouldn't work like this. If this was just to add something new for us to enjoy, they would make the changes we have been suggesting. But they said absolutely nothing regarding them since they were removed from the PTS. I'm waiting to see what the final changes will be, because I never wished so hard that they would prove me wrong.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RidW8C-7eS4

(Yes, I want to believe. It is just hard at this point after we tested them on the PTS and they turned out to actually be worse than I anticipated)

It's literally like people are turning a blind eye to everyone telling them what the actual reason for why they are bad and they're just focusing on the boxes. Like this awesome person that I just quoted understands, it's what comes after....

Because time and time again your stating the fact that these boxes have led to the downfall of games on their own, and I am saying that's your opinion, you have yet to back that up with any actual hard evidence.

There are many reasons why a game dies, mostly due to business. Even if this game is making money 10 years from now, do you think it would make them as much money as rolling out an eso2? The game has a lifespan, ZOS is going to milk it as much as they can in that lifespan, but where is the evidence the game is being abandoned with the introduction of these crates? Its marketing 101, you support your product until it becomes stale and outdated and you come up with something new, in that time you make as much money as you can and do your best to keep your customer happy so they come back in future series. You have yet to show me any kind of proof these crates hurt a game other that the same old argument, "well I played every MMO game known to man, and every time I see this, the game dies" that's not a fact at this point, thats your opinion, your not privy to the details, the numbers, the statistics, every tool a company should weigh before making a decision, people here act like they know better than a multi million dollar game studio, most likely you do not.

Sorry, but a person doesn't have to have exact subscription numbers to know if an MMO is on the rocks or not. You may not have been there, but I was there for SWG's NGE back in 2005. SOE did not give actual numbers for years after losing 2/3rds of their playerbase (or 200,000+ that beat feet) but EVERYONE in the game knew very well what was happening. We could tell via population, we could tell via "goodbye" mails, and we could tell simply by trying to get a group, for anything.

I seen STO and their route with lockboxes 1st hand. Beta vet there (and here as well). Seen entire guilds take off, got those goodbye mails yet again when all the P2W started. The problem there is Cryptic said the same things as here, "just cosmetics and convenience items" but the problem there was, no1 bought the cosmetics and convenience items. So, they re-grouped and figured out that P2W items sold very well. Then, the in-game population went to shreds, so their answer was, to raise the prices. Take a good look over there at their store, want a $200.00+ ship, You can have one or three, and Cryptic will thank you for your contribution.

The people in ESO who still want this game to be as good as you think it is better hope and pray that these cosmetic/convenience items sell and sell well. If they don't they'll spice them up accordingly. Don't believe me? Take a good look at how easy it was to come up with the plan to up the stats, and OVER, the consumables, and maybe they'll put in a couple more recipes that are as good as, they were including in these crates now. And then you can yell P2W at the top of your lungs and the devs will just say something to the effect of "yeah, so what?" or "I'm not here to discuss the way we make our money" as they do at STO.

It's always great to have a developer come to the PVP forums as say "we could take PVP out of the game and no1 would even notice". That happened at STO and the crates, errrrr, lockboxes were the single cause of it.

Oh btw, our entire ESO guild LEFT this game over just the announcement and went to a game that WE have TOTAL control over, and it's a MMORPG too, with skillboxes, player housing/cities, most everything that is here and in fact, more. And just about everything that is decent in this game (ESO) is bound so, I'm sorry, I just can't give you my stuff.

With all the debate, I still do not understand how loot crates = game failure. If someone could explain this without repeating what had already been said, because the current arguement is failing to make sense in my world. Perhaps it is just the way the reason is being stated...I just don't get it.

I do not understand the concept of Pay to Win in an MMO either. Since every player is playing their own story/game, how does someone else even beat you. If someone Pays-to-Win in an MMO, the only player they can hurt is themselves.

Even in a PvP situation, consider if Jon the Cat created a character this day, purchased an "insta-level" next day and is involve in a PvP match on the third day, how does that change anything? Other than bringing one more player into PvP.

I have been playing MMOs for over a decade and have not yet seen where one player can alter the course of another player. If the MMO was designed like a Co-operative, then I could see a Pay-to-Win scenario, like in Call of Duty or one of those type. If someone could explain the concerns over Pay-to-Win in this game, that would also help me understand this debate.