Scaling killed the game (for me)

Nocturnalan · October 2016

As a new player the only change I don't like about 1T is the scaling, it makes me feel lost, like I'm not sure where to go next. I guess the answer is to go wherever I want but I like to have a little guidance based off enemy levels. If I got stuck or went to an area a few levels too high I would run a couple dungeons to gain some xp and go back at it or I could do other things to gain xp and make my life easier going through the questing. It forced me to find a way and have diversity.

One of my favorite changes is world boss difficulty, an MMO should encourage people to get together and that's exactly what this does!

AuldWolf · October 2016

Love the scaling. Not at all a fan of the change to world bosses. It feels like an attempt to appeal to an elitists, snobby, hardcore minority at the expense of literally everyone else. It's depressing. And the obnoxious duel trolls aren't fun, either. It's lovely being able to go everywhere and all, I like that, it's just a shame it's so marred by flawed design choices.

Could we please just get difficulty settings for all zones (even world zones) and separate up players into instanced zones based upon their difficulty levels? That way, bragging rights can be for doing something on Uber X-Treme difficulty, rather than doing it at all.

It's really not a bad idea. It's the 'please everyone, the majority and the tiny minorities' option.

@ZOS_GinaBruno - Could you pass this along?

saxgooner · October 2016

Yeah I think it's sh it, no sense of progression through zones

Sinthrax · October 2016

This boils down to society in general. It's the everyone must feel equal. We take it to all walks of life, even games. Get use to it...it might spoil your fun cause you are in the 50%. The other 50% will always be right, get use to that too.

out51d3r · October 2016

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Many people don't want faceroll easy godmode......it gets boring when you arent challenged in some way.

True. TBH, I found the game faceroll easy and boring when I first started playing last summer. What I ended up doing to make it fun: I skipped a zone. This left me constantly 4-6 levels behind the quests I was doing. This made them challenging and fun. I found the sweet spot was doing quests 4 levels above me. They were tougher, but they still could be completed relatively quickly and the bonus xp for doing quests that far above me made me level at a good rate.

Smashing easy lower level content doesn't make me feel like a god. Sure, it makes me feel like my character is a god, but all I'm doing is pressing a button and watching the one shots. When I conquer particularly difficult content where my decision making is more important than my stats, -that- makes me feel like a god.

Hluill · November 2016

Some days I like lazily exploring and gathering and questing. The mobs are green and the fights are still fun, but I am not sitting on the edge of my seat. I am drinking coffee and relaxing.

Some days I enjoy sneaking through lands with mobs ten levels above, where I can be one-shotted if I am not paying attention.

Now all the fights are the same. I can't just be lazy but I really have to mess up to die.

I would enjoy a soft downscaling. But the upscaling makes my higher levels weaker.

Bobby_V_Rockit · November 2016

Game seems reeeeally easy (solo play that is) now. I think its even easier now after the scaling TBH. Yet to find a world boss I cant solo.

FYI, I'm a casual noob

STEVIL · November 2016

Have run character from 17 to 50 since 1T.
Went all over the place - wrothgar, hews, gold coast, auridon, grahtwood, glenumbra, five starter islands, some main quests, some mages, somr fighters...

Everywhere the content was moderately challenging, varying greatly from casual varmint to mob to boss to big quest boss to world boss.

Everywhere as i leveled the gains, drops, resources were useful and rewarding.

Felt no longer locked into or compelled to follow narrow lime of progression but free to go where i felt like.

Simply put, the most i have felt that i controlled the game and my character's journey since i began playing.

Scaling is wonderful (for me)

Sausage · November 2016

It didnt kill the game for me but surely put my eyes on Conan Exiles. I can say that much.

C0wrex · November 2016

It made it more challenging in my case

I loved it!

Blackbird71 · November 2016

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

I can say that this update brings joy to TES fans, or at least Oblivion and Skyrim fans,

No, you cannot say that, as you do not speak for all TES fans; you can only speak for yourself. You can say that this update brings joy to you, but any further than that is sheer arrogance, assuming that all TES fans think alike, and that they all think like you.

Having put countless hours combined into Daggerfall, Morrowind, and Oblivion, I feel qualified to self-identify as a TES fan, and I can state categorically that you do not speak for me, therefore your claim is false. And your "immersion" argument is flawed as well; I greatly enjoy immersion, but contrary to your ideas and opinions, having my character improve and being able to face more difficult enemies (while weaker enemies fade to become only an annoyance) was a big part of that immersion.

And yes, I'm aware that Oblivion was notorious for level scaling - guess what feature is the first one I mod out every time I reinstall the game?

STEVIL · November 2016

Blackbird71 wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

I can say that this update brings joy to TES fans, or at least Oblivion and Skyrim fans,

No, you cannot say that, as you do not speak for all TES fans; you can only speak for yourself. You can say that this update brings joy to you, but any further than that is sheer arrogance, assuming that all TES fans think alike, and that they all think like you.

Having put countless hours combined into Daggerfall, Morrowind, and Oblivion, I feel qualified to self-identify as a TES fan, and I can state categorically that you do not speak for me, therefore your claim is false. And your "immersion" argument is flawed as well; I greatly enjoy immersion, but contrary to your ideas and opinions, having my character improve and being able to face more difficult enemies (while weaker enemies fade to become only an annoyance) was a big part of that immersion.

And yes, I'm aware that Oblivion was notorious for level scaling - guess what feature is the first one I mod out every time I reinstall the game?

Mif i say i packed boxes of food for the poor is my stayement untrue if i did not pack boxes for every poor person?

Their claim is true is at least two fans were brought joy. YOu were the one who added "all" after all.

Blackbird71 · November 2016

crowzub17_ESO wrote: »

Oh and here is a concept for them to consider. Make it a perk that you can move to another server that runs the old code (non scaling) if your a subscriber. Id gladly pay for that and I imagine a few others would as well.

That's called "blackmail;" no chance I'm paying for it, regardless of how much I'd prefer to have the old game back.

Blackbird71 · November 2016

STEVIL wrote: »

Blackbird71 wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

I can say that this update brings joy to TES fans, or at least Oblivion and Skyrim fans,

No, you cannot say that, as you do not speak for all TES fans; you can only speak for yourself. You can say that this update brings joy to you, but any further than that is sheer arrogance, assuming that all TES fans think alike, and that they all think like you.

Having put countless hours combined into Daggerfall, Morrowind, and Oblivion, I feel qualified to self-identify as a TES fan, and I can state categorically that you do not speak for me, therefore your claim is false. And your "immersion" argument is flawed as well; I greatly enjoy immersion, but contrary to your ideas and opinions, having my character improve and being able to face more difficult enemies (while weaker enemies fade to become only an annoyance) was a big part of that immersion.

And yes, I'm aware that Oblivion was notorious for level scaling - guess what feature is the first one I mod out every time I reinstall the game?

Mif i say i packed boxes of food for the poor is my stayement untrue if i did not pack boxes for every poor person?

Their claim is true is at least two fans were brought joy. YOu were the one who added "all" after all.

Read the original post, the implication is there. It essentially laid out the (faulty) logic path of "TES fans like immersion, and this change improves immersion, therefore TES fans like the change". There was no qualifier beyond specifying "Oblivion and Skyrim fans" limiting the quantity or scope of "fans" being referred to, and the overall tone was very much one of "TES fans like it, if you don't like it, you must not be a TES fan and you should go play something else." The whole post came off as incredibly condescending and arrogant, by someone who has no position to speak for anyone other than himself.

At the very least, the evidence in this thread and others would indicate that TES fans are divided over the update, so there really is no basis for such a broad claim.

Asardes · November 2016

I've been playing TES games for 13 years, beginning with Morrowind. And I'm very pleased with the update. I'm glad there's no more junk, underleveled enemies and loot. I've even soloed a world boss on one of my characters. She was still dressed in level 44 blue training armor and only had health boost from crusty bread. Took long and had a few close calls, but beat it. Once I upgrade her armor to CP160 purple I will probably beat most of them.

smashcats · November 2016

I really dislike the scaling, I have no sense of my character growing and getting stronger, only confusion about stats going up and down at certain times to apparently compensate for the scaling...

And I dont understand the point, if were supposed to be able to go back and play with a lower level friend, you can't even retake quests you have already done anyways so all you end up doing is following them around melting everything and it's not fun for either of you.

Before 1T you would have to do all your zones up through coldharbour and if you did it fast you would still come out around only lvl 47 or so. Now I got a character to lvl 50 in less than 3 zones.

One Tamriel is really bad the game had more depth and diversity when factions were blocked and people who really wanted to switch had the adventurers pack anyways right?

So, I just don't really see the justification or the reason why people wanted it to be like this. The game is boring af now and I guarentee 1T hasn't done anything except slash a few years off its life expectancy.

Mojmir · November 2016

Only difference Ive seen is things take longer than they should and difficulty is artificial. It feels like I switched my health insurance to an HMO.

Giant_Lizard · November 2016

Blackbird71 wrote: »

crowzub17_ESO wrote: »

Oh and here is a concept for them to consider. Make it a perk that you can move to another server that runs the old code (non scaling) if your a subscriber. Id gladly pay for that and I imagine a few others would as well.

That's called "blackmail;" no chance I'm paying for it, regardless of how much I'd prefer to have the old game back.

yeah, same here.

STEVIL · November 2016

Blackbird71 wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Blackbird71 wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

I can say that this update brings joy to TES fans, or at least Oblivion and Skyrim fans,

No, you cannot say that, as you do not speak for all TES fans; you can only speak for yourself. You can say that this update brings joy to you, but any further than that is sheer arrogance, assuming that all TES fans think alike, and that they all think like you.

Having put countless hours combined into Daggerfall, Morrowind, and Oblivion, I feel qualified to self-identify as a TES fan, and I can state categorically that you do not speak for me, therefore your claim is false. And your "immersion" argument is flawed as well; I greatly enjoy immersion, but contrary to your ideas and opinions, having my character improve and being able to face more difficult enemies (while weaker enemies fade to become only an annoyance) was a big part of that immersion.

And yes, I'm aware that Oblivion was notorious for level scaling - guess what feature is the first one I mod out every time I reinstall the game?

Mif i say i packed boxes of food for the poor is my stayement untrue if i did not pack boxes for every poor person?

Their claim is true is at least two fans were brought joy. YOu were the one who added "all" after all.

Read the original post, the implication is there. It essentially laid out the (faulty) logic path of "TES fans like immersion, and this change improves immersion, therefore TES fans like the change". There was no qualifier beyond specifying "Oblivion and Skyrim fans" limiting the quantity or scope of "fans" being referred to, and the overall tone was very much one of "TES fans like it, if you don't like it, you must not be a TES fan and you should go play something else." The whole post came off as incredibly condescending and arrogant, by someone who has no position to speak for anyone other than himself.

At the very least, the evidence in this thread and others would indicate that TES fans are divided over the update, so there really is no basis for such a broad claim.

Lack of saying "some" is not the same as saying "all" which is the leap of words-in-mouth-puttery you keep trying.

If you disagree with the argument itself then by all means attack it on its merits.
Is it now more immersive than befote or not.
Was immersive play a strong feature drawing players to the previous games or not?

But if those points of substantive discussion dont work for you and all you have is not all do and you didnt say not all complaints, well, that says something.

STEVIL · November 2016

smashcats wrote: »

I really dislike the scaling, I have no sense of my character growing and getting stronger, only confusion about stats going up and down at certain times to apparently compensate for the scaling...

And I dont understand the point, if were supposed to be able to go back and play with a lower level friend, you can't even retake quests you have already done anyways so all you end up doing is following them around melting everything and it's not fun for either of you.

Before 1T you would have to do all your zones up through coldharbour and if you did it fast you would still come out around only lvl 47 or so. Now I got a character to lvl 50 in less than 3 zones.

One Tamriel is really bad the game had more depth and diversity when factions were blocked and people who really wanted to switch had the adventurers pack anyways right?

So, I just don't really see the justification or the reason why people wanted it to be like this. The game is boring af now and I guarentee 1T hasn't done anything except slash a few years off its life expectancy.

did this three zone 50 happen to overlap any of the dbl xp event or involve more off quest grind farm like say multiple dolmens or delve runs?

ON another point i believe the change added 1-2 years to the game life span.

Fortunately since nobody knows what the original life span was my claim like your guarantee can not be challenged. Well, technically mine has a slight teensy bit of guts in it cuz the game has to survive at least 1 yr from 1T so there is that.

hmsdragonfly · November 2016

Blackbird71 wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

I can say that this update brings joy to TES fans, or at least Oblivion and Skyrim fans,

No, you cannot say that, as you do not speak for all TES fans; you can only speak for yourself. You can say that this update brings joy to you, but any further than that is sheer arrogance, assuming that all TES fans think alike, and that they all think like you.

Having put countless hours combined into Daggerfall, Morrowind, and Oblivion, I feel qualified to self-identify as a TES fan, and I can state categorically that you do not speak for me, therefore your claim is false. And your "immersion" argument is flawed as well; I greatly enjoy immersion, but contrary to your ideas and opinions, having my character improve and being able to face more difficult enemies (while weaker enemies fade to become only an annoyance) was a big part of that immersion.

And yes, I'm aware that Oblivion was notorious for level scaling - guess what feature is the first one I mod out every time I reinstall the game?

Shhhh. Where did I say that scaling bring joy to "ALL" TES fans? WHERE? WHERE? Oblivion and Skyrim have the similar system of scaling. So, the majority of TES fans enjoy Oblivion and Skyrim, you can clearly see it from the sales of those games and all the user reviews.

Oh, "notorious", haha, you are funny, because a small and vocal minority used the mod, and a few dudes wrote some articles about it, so everyone must hate it! Guess what, they brought the same system to Skyrim, people were supposed to hate it right, you know, because it was "notorious", right? No, Skyrim sold very well, received great user reviews. Once people try scaling and find out that it is amazing, they love it! With the scaling, you can go any where, do anything you like! Before the update, many zones are dead zones, people go there to do quest then go somewhere else, because there's no point hanging out in a zone in which you kill mob in one shot and get nothing worth from it. Now you can hang out in whatever zone you like! Love the aestheticity of Greenshade? Now you can stay there forever! A lot of zones are now alive, and overcrowded zones become less crowded. The whole Tamriel becomes alive again, not just overcrowded zones. Before the update, you can't do what you want, if you want to join the Dark Brotherhood or go to Cyrodiil, when you go back, you can't do any sidequests anymore because you are too overleveled for them. Now you can! Now, just like in TES 4, 5, you can go to wherever you want and do whatever you want. You love Skyrim and want to go there first from the start? Now you can!

I don't know what kind of "immersion" is that if you train more, your body can take 1000 arrows instead of 2 arrows. That is ridiculous. Hey, maybe if you go to the gym a lot, your body can take 1000 bullets as well! Haha. If you train more, you can learn tricks that help you fight better, like when to dodge roll, when to block, how to manage your resources, when to use this ability, when not to use this ability.... On my Wood Elf archer, once i found out that I can shoot poison injection while holding the heavy attack, which will almost double my DPS, I felt amazing. I fail to see how going back to lower lvl zones and one-shot all the mobs is "immersive". MEhhhhhh.

Again, I never say that I speak for everyone, and I absolutely don't speak for a minor and vocal minority. Same, you don't speak for everyone. #SnowflakeLivesDonotMatter

Ashtaris · November 2016

I will have to say I'm not a big fan of the scaling myself. In many ways, I miss the old days when ESO first came out and you actually had to work your arse off to beat some of the NPC''s like Doshia, the Lyris Doppleganger, etc. They would kick your butt and you had to struggle to finally beat those foes, but with changes in gear and tactics, you would make it. Granted, they were a bit OP'd and I feel that ZOS was justified in nerfing them a bit, but then they went too far. Now they are just wusses

I guess what I would like to see is adjustable scaling levels for your characters. Want a extra challlenge in your gameplay? Then set it for difficult or insane modes

Perhaps the loot could be scaled a bit higher based on your difficulty level, i.e. a better chance to get purple drops on the upper levels. Not only would this satisfy those of us who have been in the game awhile, but also give the new players a chance to progress beyond a single standard at their own pace. It may also help with some of the problems we are seeing with pugs in the vet dungeons. If you have progressed to the upper levels of zone difficulty, then you might be better prepared for the vet dungeons. Anyway, just some thoughts. I'll stop rambling

STEVIL · November 2016

Ashtaris wrote: »

I will have to say I'm not a big fan of the scaling myself. In many ways, I miss the old days when ESO first came out and you actually had to work your arse off to beat some of the NPC''s like Doshia, the Lyris Doppleganger, etc. They would kick your butt and you had to struggle to finally beat those foes, but with changes in gear and tactics, you would make it. Granted, they were a bit OP'd and I feel that ZOS was justified in nerfing them a bit, but then they went too far. Now they are just wusses

I guess what I would like to see is adjustable scaling levels for your characters. Want a extra challlenge in your gameplay? Then set it for difficult or insane modes Perhaps the loot could be scaled a bit higher based on your difficulty level, i.e. a better chance to get purple drops on the upper levels. Not only would this satisfy those of us who have been in the game awhile, but also give the new players a chance to progress beyond a single standard at their own pace. It may also help with some of the problems we are seeing with pugs in the vet dungeons. If you have progressed to the upper levels of zone difficulty, then you might be better prepared for the vet dungeons. Anyway, just some thoughts. I'll stop rambling

It is my hope that the all over scaling and the normal-vet-hard dials for dungeons trials arenas are the shakedown cruise for just such a dialable overland/quest content in the future.

Pirhana7_ESO · November 2016

Giant_Lizard wrote: »

I don't know your feelings about it, but for me this "feature" really destroyed any fun I had in the game.

I'm still not even lvl 50, and I like to do quests and kill mobs in order to increase my lvl and become stronger. Now what? I don't even need it. I can go anywhere, my lvl will be scaled, or the mobs lvl will be, so I don't have any fun or need in doing it. It would be only for the skills.

What's the sense in that?

Also, when I encountered a strong mob (a group boss maybe) and I wanted to take it down alone, if I couldn't, I just made some lvl more, became stronger, went back and kicked his...butt. Now it's useless. If I can't kill a mob, I just can't. I will be forced to do it with a group of people. That's not funny.

Really, in the last weeks I logged in and played as much as I could, every time I had some free time to spare. Now, I logged in, went to some old-low-level zone, fought some monster and saw how long it takes me now to kill them...I just logged out. Now we have to be careful wherever we are, but not too much because there is no one who can really kill us. It's so "flat" that takes all the fun away.

My opinion, of course.

While questing may not give you a reason to progress to 50 the main endgame theme of the game does with the alliance war in Cyrodiil. You are going to want to be 50 and as strong as possible in the alliance war fighting enemy players