Another failed PUG Vet HelRa

raidentenshu_ESO · October 2016

Nickernator wrote: »

kylewwefan wrote: »

Well, it wasn't exactly a PUG; it was all guild players....from a few different guilds, but nowhere near enough DPS. Why is it so freaking hard to find good DPS? Why do I keep doing this to myself? Maybe I should just stick with daily pledges.

One of these days the stars will align and well burn through the Warrior or Mage or Celestial Serpent. Til then F the vet trials. Maybe next weekend. Or tonight. Hehe.

There are some people that can't deal good DPS because they don't have the required gear, if they can get the gear they want. And especially from HellRa drops some good gear, then they can do better DPS.

Exactly. The fact that the only way to get the proper gear is to grind, and not everyone has the time to do it. If Zos would knock off the BOP and actually let us (who do have time to grind) start selling loot then perhaps players would start to gain access to good gear from an investment point of view.

My DPS would probably sky rocketed if I was able to purchase couple of inferno vMA staffs from the guild stores.

I could get them myself I suppose... but I prefer to play in a group rather then solo.

Prabooo · October 2016

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

Are you sure it's a dps issue?
From my experience movement and teamplay are usually much bigger issues than dps, especially if you take people from different guilds who haven't played together a lot.

^^ This ^^

kylewwefan · October 2016

I shall try Sanctum when on my healer then. I got great gear. Little skills....what could go wrong. Lol!

HouLiGaN · October 2016

kylewwefan wrote: »

Well, it wasn't exactly a PUG; it was all guild players....from a few different guilds, but nowhere near enough DPS. Why is it so freaking hard to find good DPS? Why do I keep doing this to myself? Maybe I should just stick with daily pledges.

One of these days the stars will align and well burn through the Warrior or Mage or Celestial Serpent. Til then F the vet trials. Maybe next weekend. Or tonight. Hehe.

Dp`s Isn`t an Issue these day`s, there is SOOOOO many set`s out there now, that can fit SOOO many playstyle`s and still pull of enough dp`s. If you calculate each boss HP and the mechanic`s timer`s you'll find the required DP`s that everyone need`s to pull isnt those fancy 50k+ dp`s you see in some youtube video`s.
Plus there Is so many way`s to obtain dp`s from buff`s and debuff`s, from tank`s & healer`s and also some DD`s could help with group buff`s where is necessary.

Many people fail to understand that communication and mechanic`s is more of importance then DP`s these day`s.
Unless your doing hardmode vet trial`s dont worry about DP`s, make sure your group has a full understanding of what has to be done and you should be good to go.

Trublz · October 2016

I run pug vHRC all the time. It's pretty simple.. Just make sure when you type in chat that you ask for only players with 25k+ DPS.
Now some players may not end up doing that dps but it will weed out some of the hitch hikers and you can just kick anyone who ends up not holding their own weight. DPS are are the easiest role player to find so shouldn't be that hard

Drummerx04 · October 2016

I'd argue that good dps is hard to find because the game can lag so much (frame and network) when it get's busy on screen. I can pull a pretty good rotation in 4 man dungeons and my boss dps has hit around 37k buffed. But when I'm in a trials fight, light attacks won't go off, sometimes skills won't go off, and the entire rotation feels like it's taking extra long and I end up pulling maybe 25k buffed when the run goes smoothly.

Maybe I need to drop more visual settings, but I've already turned off a lot of extra visual effects and my rig is definitely not a potato.

Kas · October 2016

trial dps is a lot about really knowing the encounters. only them you can optimize your rotation according to boss mechanics, avoid deaths, etc. If you give me some now content, I cannot do more than 30k on chars that go well beyond 50k in the trials I know (and also tanks+supports to that horn uptime works, i got combat prayer etc and mobs aren't moved around, etc, etc).

--> if you want to sucessfull pug a vet trial, it's sooo much harder with people who don't know it yet (even if they're very quick to understand and never die) compared to those that do. the people I've played in pugs usually cleared the content ages ago (like me) and know it inside out. people should learn the content together and in ´premade groups THEN they can build pugs to farm. everything else is just painful for everyone involved.

WhitePawPrints · October 2016

Drummerx04 wrote: »

I'd argue that good dps is hard to find because the game can lag so much (frame and network) when it get's busy on screen. I can pull a pretty good rotation in 4 man dungeons and my boss dps has hit around 37k buffed. But when I'm in a trials fight, light attacks won't go off, sometimes skills won't go off, and the entire rotation feels like it's taking extra long and I end up pulling maybe 25k buffed when the run goes smoothly.

Maybe I need to drop more visual settings, but I've already turned off a lot of extra visual effects and my rig is definitely not a potato.

I don't have too many issues with lag in that. Though synergies are such a problem. They only last a few seconds, I'm attacking and if I press X for synergy, it doesn't do it unless I stop attacking. I feel like synergies should be instantaneous, even if we're in an animation or attacking.

Trublz · October 2016

Drummerx04 wrote: »

I'd argue that good dps is hard to find because the game can lag so much (frame and network) when it get's busy on screen. I can pull a pretty good rotation in 4 man dungeons and my boss dps has hit around 37k buffed. But when I'm in a trials fight, light attacks won't go off, sometimes skills won't go off, and the entire rotation feels like it's taking extra long and I end up pulling maybe 25k buffed when the run goes smoothly.

Maybe I need to drop more visual settings, but I've already turned off a lot of extra visual effects and my rig is definitely not a potato.

I've always had the same problem, even with a laptop set up specifically for gaming. I just turn my graphics down to low when I'm entering a trial and I have 0 issues with performance.

Stardark · October 2016

raidentenshu_ESO wrote: »

My DPS would probably sky rocketed if I was able to purchase couple of inferno vMA staffs from the guild stores.

Aside from that a focus on certain items being a crutch (vMA stuff will help, it won't change your life) but if you have the time to earn the money to buy something you usually have the time to grind for it.

Aside from purple and gold trial jewellery there is no excuse for not having good enough gear these days, it is entirely about the amount of effort put in. And you don't need this stuff to do well enough in trials.

There are still enough unbound sets out there that will give you plenty of DPS.

Nebthet78 · October 2016

kylewwefan wrote: »

I am positive it's a DPS issue. I agree, there is no gear you can get that's going to make your Damage skyrocket. You'd have to be doing good DPS already. Good DPS is all that's required. 10k + would likely be enough......that's right 10k. Many people don't do that. For reals.

Then there's organization. Yeah. It not so good when 10 people go running all over the map.

I've actually yet to have a bad tank or bad healer in vet trials. Maybe one bad healer. Low Damage is by far the biggest problem.

When you get the warrior to 65% health, you have 5 minutes to get him down to 30% health or he wipes the group. Before you get there, notice how long it takes to burn down the air atro. If seems like it takes forever......this is a good time to throw in the towel.

Actually, 10k dps is rather low, even for normal Trials. Most guilds I know require their members to have 15k dps for normal.

However, PC NA, Vet Trials requirements by a lot of the top guilds who are running require players to have 30k+ single target dps before they will ever consider allowing you into a Trial with them.
Other guilds with not so top tier members are requiring about 20k single target DPS.

For a lot of people, reaching those numbers is near impossible.. Yes, they could work on it a lot, work on their rotation etc, etc, but for the average player, they are either not going to be able to put in that much effort due to having a real life, or they have physical disability issues that give them additional limitations that can't be overcome.

Like a few others, I find that running the Normal dungeons is not rewarding at all. No one wants blue jewellery. At least not until ZOS makes it so it can be upgraded by crafters. Blue armor you can already do that with. Some people say there isn't much of a difference between the blue and purple, only a few points difference. True, but add those 30pts across three pieces and it can make just that much more difference to someone's DPS or survivability.

I still think ZOS really needs to make a middle tier Trials that's between normal and Vet modes. Give players a stepping stone to work towards. The difficulty difference between Normal and Vet modes is HUGE!!! Players burn through the normal enemies so quickly that there isn't a chance to learn all the mechanics. PLUS, some of the bosses don't even have the same mechanics as they do on Vet mode.

A middle ground trial is actually required, especially if players want to progress better into Vet Trials by learning the mechanics. I would also say this middle ground would also drop all purple gear and jewellery, but no gold stuff at all, where Vet gets you one gold at the end and Hardmode gives you two.

A lot of the more casual players don't want to spend 3hrs at a time trying to figure out the mechanics and rotations learning the Vet Dungeons. That's not fun for them and so they get frustrated and leave. I have seen it over and over again and it creates tension in the guild between players who can do the best dps and want the hard challenge and those who just can't do it. A middle ground with no Leaderboard would go a long way to helping these players improve their game, while allowing them to have fun and feel like they accomplished something.

Destruent · October 2016

Yeah...3x 30=90 add in some multipliers and CP and you are at 150 stat difference between purple and blue and 300 between blue and gold. Do you guys really want to call this a reason for anything?

So just imagine someone with 3.5k Spelldmg and 40k magicka and compare it to 3.5k spelldmg and 40.3k magicka. That's a 0.4% DPS-Increase. This won't change anything.

lolo_01b16_ESO · October 2016

kylewwefan wrote: »

I am positive it's a DPS issue. I agree, there is no gear you can get that's going to make your Damage skyrocket. You'd have to be doing good DPS already. Good DPS is all that's required. 10k + would likely be enough......that's right 10k. Many people don't do that. For reals.

Then there's organization. Yeah. It not so good when 10 people go running all over the map.

I've actually yet to have a bad tank or bad healer in vet trials. Maybe one bad healer. Low Damage is by far the biggest problem.

When you get the warrior to 65% health, you have 5 minutes to get him down to 30% health or he wipes the group. Before you get there, notice how long it takes to burn down the air atro. If seems like it takes forever......this is a good time to throw in the towel.

Yeah, if you have multiple people with less than 10k dps that can indeed be an issue. But then you should try to help your dps to become better. Getting 15-20k single target dps, which is enough for non hm trials doesn't require any witchcraft. In a raid environment you can get those numbers without too much struggle. You can use crafted gear and not do any animation cancelling and if you have reasonable skills on your bar, you'll still reach your goal with any class. Just make sure you refresh your damage over time effects when they run out and use a spammable skill while your dots are running.

xeNNNNN · October 2016

dethbl00ms wrote: »

xeNNNNN wrote: »

The unfortunate truth right now is that the mechanics are less important compared too DPS meaning virtually everything about the trials right now is a DPS race.

two examples:

Hel-Ra - If you cant burn the warrior down quick enough you get swamped with mobs.
Atherian archive - If you cant kill the mini mages fast enough, too many spawn and you get crushed utterly.

I havent even bothered with Maw Of Lorkaj or Sanctum ophidia - simply because everything is too much of a dps race.

Sure its important to know the mechanics in order to prevent your group from wiping but ultimately all comes down to who can burn it fast enough. Which really...is kind of sad to be honest. I want the mechanics too actually matter way more. Sure it could prove a problem for unorganised groups if they add more complicated mechanics and such but frankly the percentage of people running high DPS consistently compared to the rest of the games population is pretty small.

You should try Sanctum Ophidia. It's more of a healer check than a DPS-race.

I would like to try it eventually, only dont it on my healer pre-rescale. So would be interesting to do with since the scaling changes. All comes down too what the people I play with want to do though

Im just happy I get too join on trials and such.

Vaoh · October 2016

Woeler wrote: »

You dont just find good people, you make good people.

^^^^^^^^ yep

code65536 · October 2016

raidentenshu_ESO wrote: »

My DPS would probably sky rocketed if I was able to purchase couple of inferno vMA staffs from the guild stores.

LOL.

No, it won't "skyrocket". A sharp vMA fire staff will increase your DPS, but only by a little. A good player with all crafted purple gear will still vastly out-DPS a bad player with BiS gold gear.

Paulington · October 2016

code65536 wrote: »

raidentenshu_ESO wrote: »

My DPS would probably sky rocketed if I was able to purchase couple of inferno vMA staffs from the guild stores.

LOL.

No, it won't "skyrocket". A sharp vMA fire staff will increase your DPS, but only by a little. A good player with all crafted purple gear will still vastly out-DPS a bad player with BiS gold gear.

In our testing a vMA sharpened inferno staff is worth around 1-2k DPS fully raid buffed. Bear in mind we're already doing 55k+ DPS for the duration of a fight so it's barely even 2%.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · October 2016

Crazy thought, if there are unknowns in your group, run it on normal first. Have people post, and if it looks like you have the DPS, then go for it.

Vet versions of HelRa and AA arent bad, but as you eluded to, there are DPS checks that you cant avoid. Therefore, it's probably a good idea to "check" your DPS.

Stardark · October 2016

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

Yeah, if you have multiple people with less than 10k dps that can indeed be an issue.

I pull 10k on my healer (When I am not spamming Healing Springs as if the entire trial groups life depended on it). Any DPS with less than 10k isn't paying attention.

timidobserver · October 2016

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

The other day my group had so low dps that I had to tank 15+ welvas on the left side for 10 minutes.

I did not know this was even possible. This would be a good prank for a group to pull on a tank.

CultOfMMO · October 2016

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Crazy thought, if there are unknowns in your group, run it on normal first. Have people post, and if it looks like you have the DPS, then go for it.

Vet versions of HelRa and AA arent bad, but as you eluded to, there are DPS checks that you cant avoid. Therefore, it's probably a good idea to "check" your DPS.

without a shareable dps meter for all to see, ppl can easily edit these numbers though. And it'd be impossible for the raid leader to tell whose lying.

Destruent · October 2016

CultOfMMO wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Crazy thought, if there are unknowns in your group, run it on normal first. Have people post, and if it looks like you have the DPS, then go for it.

Vet versions of HelRa and AA arent bad, but as you eluded to, there are DPS checks that you cant avoid. Therefore, it's probably a good idea to "check" your DPS.

without a shareable dps meter for all to see, ppl can easily edit these numbers though. And it'd be impossible for the raid leader to tell whose lying.

No, just install combat metrics and you see your overall raiddps. you can check such things if you want to. But to see who exactly posts crap is indeed a bit tricky

kylewwefan · October 2016

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Crazy thought, if there are unknowns in your group, run it on normal first. Have people post, and if it looks like you have the DPS, then go for it.

Vet versions of HelRa and AA arent bad, but as you eluded to, there are DPS checks that you cant avoid. Therefore, it's probably a good idea to "check" your DPS.

Yeah I know. Sad face. No one wants to do regular trials anymore, but so few people are ready for vet trials. This whole witch brew thing got everyone all screwed up. You know how many people are grinding up stamsorcs ATM? I can't stomach anymore hour long regular trial to end up getting some garbage ice furnace or Nicklaus gear.

I have to keep trying though. One of these Vet runs is bound to work out....I just got some really bad RNG.

Waseem · October 2016

go right side, some people don't know how to block impulse
go make new character, at level 2 they teach you how to block in wailing prison

s7732425ub17_ESO · October 2016

Nebthet78 wrote: »

kylewwefan wrote: »

I am positive it's a DPS issue. I agree, there is no gear you can get that's going to make your Damage skyrocket. You'd have to be doing good DPS already. Good DPS is all that's required. 10k + would likely be enough......that's right 10k. Many people don't do that. For reals.

Then there's organization. Yeah. It not so good when 10 people go running all over the map.

I've actually yet to have a bad tank or bad healer in vet trials. Maybe one bad healer. Low Damage is by far the biggest problem.

When you get the warrior to 65% health, you have 5 minutes to get him down to 30% health or he wipes the group. Before you get there, notice how long it takes to burn down the air atro. If seems like it takes forever......this is a good time to throw in the towel.

Actually, 10k dps is rather low, even for normal Trials. Most guilds I know require their members to have 15k dps for normal.

However, PC NA, Vet Trials requirements by a lot of the top guilds who are running require players to have 30k+ single target dps before they will ever consider allowing you into a Trial with them.
Other guilds with not so top tier members are requiring about 20k single target DPS.

For a lot of people, reaching those numbers is near impossible.. Yes, they could work on it a lot, work on their rotation etc, etc, but for the average player, they are either not going to be able to put in that much effort due to having a real life, or they have physical disability issues that give them additional limitations that can't be overcome.

Like a few others, I find that running the Normal dungeons is not rewarding at all. No one wants blue jewellery. At least not until ZOS makes it so it can be upgraded by crafters. Blue armor you can already do that with. Some people say there isn't much of a difference between the blue and purple, only a few points difference. True, but add those 30pts across three pieces and it can make just that much more difference to someone's DPS or survivability.

I still think ZOS really needs to make a middle tier Trials that's between normal and Vet modes. Give players a stepping stone to work towards. The difficulty difference between Normal and Vet modes is HUGE!!! Players burn through the normal enemies so quickly that there isn't a chance to learn all the mechanics. PLUS, some of the bosses don't even have the same mechanics as they do on Vet mode.

A middle ground trial is actually required, especially if players want to progress better into Vet Trials by learning the mechanics. I would also say this middle ground would also drop all purple gear and jewellery, but no gold stuff at all, where Vet gets you one gold at the end and Hardmode gives you two.

A lot of the more casual players don't want to spend 3hrs at a time trying to figure out the mechanics and rotations learning the Vet Dungeons. That's not fun for them and so they get frustrated and leave. I have seen it over and over again and it creates tension in the guild between players who can do the best dps and want the hard challenge and those who just can't do it. A middle ground with no Leaderboard would go a long way to helping these players improve their game, while allowing them to have fun and feel like they accomplished something.

The thing is, if you are new to Trials and cannot pull 25k dps solo consistently, I really just cannot take you along in a Vet Trial run. Why? Since you are new to Trials, your 25k dps will turn into 15k dps because you are focused on mechanics and not dieing. 15K dps is enough to have a smooth experience and actually be able to complete Vet Trials.

But if you are pulling 15k dps solo, that will turn into 5k dps, and that's just not enough to have a good time for anyone in the group.

WalksonGraves · October 2016

Lol how? Vet Hel Ra is one of the shortest and easiest dungeons. Velidreth is harder.

anitajoneb17_ESO · October 2016

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

The thing is, if you are new to Trials and cannot pull 25k dps solo consistently, I really just cannot take you along in a Vet Trial run. Why? Since you are new to Trials, your 25k dps will turn into 15k dps because you are focused on mechanics and not dieing. 15K dps is enough to have a smooth experience and actually be able to complete Vet Trials.

But if you are pulling 15k dps solo, that will turn into 5k dps, and that's just not enough to have a good time for anyone in the group.

With all due respect, that's rubbish. In a trial, you'll make MORE DPS than solo because of group buffs. I pull 18K solo in general (broad average) and that usually becomes 22K in vet trials. While focusing on mechanics and not dieing rather than my rotation, because I know that with that kind of DPS, I am the weaker link and I am being carried by my groupmates (they know it and accept it) and the least I can do is to not die.

The point is, trial DPS is always higher than solo DPS - unless the group isn't optimized as a group and noone provides buffs (ele drain, war horn, spell power cure, worm cult, etc etc...)

Shad0wfire99 · October 2016

CultOfMMO wrote: »

i know most people think dps is such a brain dead role, but decent dps is probably the rarest thing in this game, especially when you consider the fact that you need at least 8 dps per trial group.

This. I'm of the opinion that dishing out constant, high-end dps is MUCH harder than endgame healing or tanking.

Massive_Stain · October 2016

Ps4 NA here; my main trial guild started a vet progression weekly thing to get all of us trained. The guild master and several other awesome folks I met along the way began giving me advice on gear/champion points, and I was able to squeek by the bloodspawn dps time and get into the Vet team.

Anyhow, we had to merge another guilds "dps ready" group into a message group on Psn to organize due to the lack of dps between Wolfpack and Perdition. We farmed HelRa Vet for all it was worth, everyday, for 3 weeks before One Tamriel dropped. We crushed it everytime, and all of us got full sets of all the gold jewelry available.

Now, with the nerfed sets, it doesnt even seem worth running, ever again. :-(

Artis · October 2016

Nebthet78 wrote: »

Actually, 10k dps is rather low, even for normal Trials. Most guilds I know require their members to have 15k dps for normal.

However, PC NA, Vet Trials requirements by a lot of the top guilds who are running require players to have 30k+ single target dps before they will ever consider allowing you into a Trial with them.
Other guilds with not so top tier members are requiring about 20k single target DPS.

For a lot of people, reaching those numbers is near impossible.. Yes, they could work on it a lot, work on their rotation etc, etc, but for the average player, they are either not going to be able to put in that much effort due to having a real life, or they have physical disability issues that give them additional limitations that can't be overcome.

20k is absolutely doable with the raid buff, come on. And if a player has decent gear that complements his build (magicka or stamina), uses dots and weaves - then there's no reason he can't reach 20k. All the things except for weaves don't require practice. And weaves.. well if they played long enough to be able to go to trials then they had more than enough time to practice weaving. Or if not - then they can start now and just do it whenever they fight. Very soon they'll be decent at it. And if they have other limitations - well, too bad? What do you suggest we do about it? Ruin the game for the majority to cater to minority? They have content designed for them. Or maybe there are other games for them. Not everyone can get everything, such is life.

Nebthet78 wrote: »

Like a few others, I find that running the Normal dungeons is not rewarding at all. No one wants blue jewellery. At least not until ZOS makes it so it can be upgraded by crafters. Blue armor you can already do that with. Some people say there isn't much of a difference between the blue and purple, only a few points difference. True, but add those 30pts across three pieces and it can make just that much more difference to someone's DPS or survivability.

Ok, let's add 30pts across 3 pieces. It will make 90 points difference in a stat. That is nothing. It's negligibly small. But also, and more importantly, if those sets aren't good enough for you when they are blue - good, use other sets of better quality. Oh you want better quality of these sets? Well then become a better player who plays good enough to deserve those sets. Or find a group to carry you.

That gear is for those who can handle the challenge. You shouldn't expect top gear to be handed for easier content. You should not expect to not have better rewards for harder content. And there always be players who can't complete harder content. So what, they should be just handed top jewelry? No, they don't deserve it, they don't meet requirements to get it. It just happened so, that you are one of those players currently.

You have two choices. 1 - practice and improve. 2- whine and complain on forums and ask devs to give the same gear to everyone, thus trying to kill the game since there would be no differentiation in access to gear and skill/commitment wouldn't be rewarded.

So, if you are reading this, guess you won't get vet trials done any time soon...

And rings absolutely shouldn't be upgraded by crafters in the current state of the game. It would mean that players can just get them blue in easy modes and then upgrade . They don't deserve having everything minmaxed if they can't complete that content. They should have that little bit of stat missing to push them to get better. They already can do that with all gear except for jewelry too. That is too much. They should make gear from normals cp150 or cp159 or something. Intentionally suboptimal.

Nebthet78 wrote: »

I still think ZOS really needs to make a middle tier Trials that's between normal and Vet modes. Give players a stepping stone to work towards. The difficulty difference between Normal and Vet modes is HUGE!!! Players burn through the normal enemies so quickly that there isn't a chance to learn all the mechanics. PLUS, some of the bosses don't even have the same mechanics as they do on Vet mode.

A middle ground trial is actually required, especially if players want to progress better into Vet Trials by learning the mechanics. I would also say this middle ground would also drop all purple gear and jewellery, but no gold stuff at all, where Vet gets you one gold at the end and Hardmode gives you two.

GOod point. Should be 1 more difficulty or normal difficulty must be buffed to stop being trivial. But then - less content for players with limitations, so I guess they should name normal easy and add normal as a moderate difficulty trial. But you need to understand, that vet is still supposed to have better rewards since it's higher challenge + a leaderboard activity. And you need to understand that some players still won' be able to complete it (and might whine too) and actually you might be one of those players and still won't get top jewelry. Will you be okay with that? Or is this all jsut because you can't get top gear?

Nebthet78 wrote: »

A lot of the more casual players don't want to spend 3hrs at a time trying to figure out the mechanics and rotations learning the Vet Dungeons. That's not fun for them and so they get frustrated and leave. I have seen it over and over again and it creates tension in the guild between players who can do the best dps and want the hard challenge and those who just can't do it. A middle ground with no Leaderboard would go a long way to helping these players improve their game, while allowing them to have fun and feel like they accomplished something.

So there are other dungeons for them where they can get rewards that they deserve. But yes, see, now you see why many players complained the content was too easy. Because it was and still is in normal dungeons. They should add dungeons similar in difficulty to old vet dungeons before they buffed them in 1T.