Calling all PvP Magicka DKs - Document to the DEVs

Crom_CCCXVI · October 2016

All would ask would be a melee weapon based off Magika.

Joy_Division · October 2016

eserras7b16_ESO wrote: »

@DKsUnite

Hello, while I love that you suggest stuff and that you fight for what's right, i had a look at the document and 1st lines already change my mood from interested to angry:

-

Banner is situationally strong but a huge potential waste of 250 ultimate [Joy Division]
still think 250 ultimate is too expensive for Banner [Joy Division]

Standard of Might

The cost is too high to warrant use in pvp. I know that this was kind of intentional as this is what mDK use in pve and having it lower cost is going to throw the balance in pve

-

Well EXACTLY, if you really want people to take you seriously you can't just say "hey, we're just giving them ideas but nothing that can make us too powerful or unbalanced in PvE for example, just pvp changes" and then ask for reducing the cost of the strongest PvE ultimate in the GAME!!! You're going in a totally wrong path. Standard is a PvE ultimate and that's just exactly how it is designed to be! You have other ultimates to aid you in PvP, specialy now with the new stamina ultimates.

Make a letter wich is: SHORTER, SIMPLIER and actually SMART. I'm not going to read any further since i'll probably only read overpowered *** all over exceptuating ONE or TWO actualy good ideas, wich should be the only ones appearing on this document.

Pretty dissapointed by the mDK community, it really feels like you have no sense of responsability signing this document. You only want to be over the top, or that's how it looks like.

You have an awful lot of CAPS for questionable statements.

Banner strongest PvE ultimate in the game? Wrong. In the two years I have raided, I never had a raid lead specifically cite banner as a necessary ultimate to defeat a raid boss. All it does it add some DPS to one raid member to a stationary boss and selfishly provide one raid member with a little mitigation.

Banner designed to be a PvE ultimate? Nope. From the beginning of this game, it was designed such that PvP and PvE were intertwined and had identical mechanics. In fact, the decision not to separate PvE stuff from PvP stuff (aside from the lazy battle spitit mechanic) is the root of many balance issues in PvP.

All but one or two ideas that are not overpowered? You and 99% of the rest of the non-DKs really need to get over the first 6 months of the game when DKs facerolled whatever build you ran and permanently traumatized the non-DK community. "Balance" is not attained by making once class suck for X amount of time as penance and punishment or because of paranoia. The non-DK community is no better when they make threads asking for buffs. You are disappointed in mDK for having no sense of responsibility. What a joke! Hop in a sorcerer thread and listen to them argue how 20 second shield stacking is a necessary class feature and tell us again how non-DK are smart and responsible.

Moglijuana · October 2016

Joy_Division wrote: »

eserras7b16_ESO wrote: »

@DKsUnite

Hello, while I love that you suggest stuff and that you fight for what's right, i had a look at the document and 1st lines already change my mood from interested to angry:

-

Banner is situationally strong but a huge potential waste of 250 ultimate [Joy Division]
still think 250 ultimate is too expensive for Banner [Joy Division]

Standard of Might

The cost is too high to warrant use in pvp. I know that this was kind of intentional as this is what mDK use in pve and having it lower cost is going to throw the balance in pve

-

Well EXACTLY, if you really want people to take you seriously you can't just say "hey, we're just giving them ideas but nothing that can make us too powerful or unbalanced in PvE for example, just pvp changes" and then ask for reducing the cost of the strongest PvE ultimate in the GAME!!! You're going in a totally wrong path. Standard is a PvE ultimate and that's just exactly how it is designed to be! You have other ultimates to aid you in PvP, specialy now with the new stamina ultimates.

Make a letter wich is: SHORTER, SIMPLIER and actually SMART. I'm not going to read any further since i'll probably only read overpowered *** all over exceptuating ONE or TWO actualy good ideas, wich should be the only ones appearing on this document.

Pretty dissapointed by the mDK community, it really feels like you have no sense of responsability signing this document. You only want to be over the top, or that's how it looks like.

You have an awful lot of CAPS for questionable statements.

Banner strongest PvE ultimate in the game? Wrong. In the two years I have raided, I never had a raid lead specifically cite banner as a necessary ultimate to defeat a raid boss. All it does it add some DPS to one raid member to a stationary boss and selfishly provide one raid member with a little mitigation.

Banner designed to be a PvE ultimate? Nope. From the beginning of this game, it was designed such that PvP and PvE were intertwined and had identical mechanics. In fact, the decision not to separate PvE stuff from PvP stuff (aside from the lazy battle spitit mechanic) is the root of many balance issues in PvP.

All but one or two ideas that are not overpowered? You and 99% of the rest of the non-DKs really need to get over the first 6 months of the game when DKs facerolled whatever build you ran and permanently traumatized the non-DK community. "Balance" is not attained by making once class suck for X amount of time as penance and punishment or because of paranoia. The non-DK community is no better when they make threads asking for buffs. You are disappointed in mDK for having no sense of responsibility. What a joke! Hop in a sorcerer thread and listen to them argue how 20 second shield stacking is a necessary class feature and tell us again how non-DK are smart and responsible.

#savage +1

Ishammael · October 2016

Joy_Division wrote: »

eserras7b16_ESO wrote: »

@DKsUnite

Hello, while I love that you suggest stuff and that you fight for what's right, i had a look at the document and 1st lines already change my mood from interested to angry:

-

Banner is situationally strong but a huge potential waste of 250 ultimate [Joy Division]
still think 250 ultimate is too expensive for Banner [Joy Division]

Standard of Might

The cost is too high to warrant use in pvp. I know that this was kind of intentional as this is what mDK use in pve and having it lower cost is going to throw the balance in pve

-

Well EXACTLY, if you really want people to take you seriously you can't just say "hey, we're just giving them ideas but nothing that can make us too powerful or unbalanced in PvE for example, just pvp changes" and then ask for reducing the cost of the strongest PvE ultimate in the GAME!!! You're going in a totally wrong path. Standard is a PvE ultimate and that's just exactly how it is designed to be! You have other ultimates to aid you in PvP, specialy now with the new stamina ultimates.

Make a letter wich is: SHORTER, SIMPLIER and actually SMART. I'm not going to read any further since i'll probably only read overpowered *** all over exceptuating ONE or TWO actualy good ideas, wich should be the only ones appearing on this document.

Pretty dissapointed by the mDK community, it really feels like you have no sense of responsability signing this document. You only want to be over the top, or that's how it looks like.

You have an awful lot of CAPS for questionable statements.

Banner strongest PvE ultimate in the game? Wrong. In the two years I have raided, I never had a raid lead specifically cite banner as a necessary ultimate to defeat a raid boss. All it does it add some DPS to one raid member to a stationary boss and selfishly provide one raid member with a little mitigation.

Banner designed to be a PvE ultimate? Nope. From the beginning of this game, it was designed such that PvP and PvE were intertwined and had identical mechanics. In fact, the decision not to separate PvE stuff from PvP stuff (aside from the lazy battle spitit mechanic) is the root of many balance issues in PvP.

All but one or two ideas that are not overpowered? You and 99% of the rest of the non-DKs really need to get over the first 6 months of the game when DKs facerolled whatever build you ran and permanently traumatized the non-DK community. "Balance" is not attained by making once class suck for X amount of time as penance and punishment or because of paranoia. The non-DK community is no better when they make threads asking for buffs. You are disappointed in mDK for having no sense of responsibility. What a joke! Hop in a sorcerer thread and listen to them argue how 20 second shield stacking is a necessary class feature and tell us again how non-DK are smart and responsible.

Make mDK great again!

Stamden · October 2016

I think Chains should have a morph that makes it so that a chain attaches to an enemy (like a tether) that prevents enemies from moving out of it's range. This solves the major mobility issue that DKs have and the fact that people can just run away or bolt escape away from a mDK.

Prabooo · October 2016

leave mag DK's as they are, they rule, please nothing to see here move along

Airyus · October 2016

Four months later still not one response to an outraged community from the Dev team. Is there even a point in continuing this thread? Feels like we are just trying to drill a hole in a concrete wall with a tooth pick.

Stamden · October 2016

Airyus wrote: »

Four months later still not one response to an outraged community from the Dev team. Is there even a point in continuing this thread? Feels like we are just trying to drill a hole in a concrete wall with a tooth pick.

Well, considering next patch is supposed to be the balancing patch, my continuation of playing this game solely consists on the outcome of mDK balance and what they do next patch. I'm simply not okay with playing a game where I am locked out of half the content (PvP) solely because of the fact that I chose to be a magika DK.

Moglijuana · October 2016

How's everyones mDK doing? I've been wrecking lately...Skoria + burning spell weave OP.

DKsUnite · October 2016

Moglijuana wrote: »

How's everyones mDK doing? I've been wrecking lately...Skoria + burning spell weave OP.

no time to play atm but i have a cancer build planned out which hopefully will work

NBrookus · October 2016

Moglijuana wrote: »

How's everyones mDK doing? I've been wrecking lately...Skoria + burning spell weave OP.

Currently running Grothdarr/Sun/Seducer. Damage is way up but really only works well in enclosed spaces.

Rainingblood · October 2016

Moglijuana wrote: »

How's everyones mDK doing? I've been wrecking lately...Skoria + burning spell weave OP.

Testing still, but Rattlecage, Grothdarr, Fiery Rage has been doing well. Been using VD recently since it's working again, but playing around with replacing it with Hist Sap or Wyrd Tree.

Kilandros · October 2016

Moglijuana wrote: »

How's everyones mDK doing? I've been wrecking lately...Skoria + burning spell weave OP.

I think I prefer Spinner's to Spellweave. While my damage has improved, I still suffer from lack of sustain and lack of effective self heals (and lack of a class-based gap closer). As another poster said, effective in small spaces, tough in open field.

Moglijuana · October 2016

Kilandros wrote: »

Moglijuana wrote: »

How's everyones mDK doing? I've been wrecking lately...Skoria + burning spell weave OP.

I think I prefer Spinner's to Spellweave. While my damage has improved, I still suffer from lack of sustain and lack of effective self heals (and lack of a class-based gap closer). As another poster said, effective in small spaces, tough in open field.

I'm actually running in light kags on the body so my sustain is pretty decent. Still at 20k phys resist with reinforced/defending front bar. I do lack good self heals since I only use healing ward though (and deep breath when outnumbered)...especially when those dam green bars keep stealing them lol. RIP. But you are correct about getting caught in the open. I just mist form to some rocks and make them my house of flame and death.

Bashev · October 2016

I gave up. Even with the block cost reduction mDK can kill only noobs. My issues are that:
1) If I want a gap closer I have to slot a stamina skill
2) I need purge skill which is expensive and remove only 2 debuffs
3) I need resto staff for heals
4) If I want a healing debuff I need stamina skill
5) If I want spell resistance debuff either i need destro staff then no gap closer or 1h/s but stamina skill
6) If I want mobility I need mist form
7) If I want healing buff I need a useless shield skill

Currently the poison injection is so strong as a dot and unblockable and unreflectable. I have to purge it but I also have ransank on me so I have to use purge twice. The cost of the skill is around 4k.

Stamden · October 2016

NBrookus wrote: »

Moglijuana wrote: »

How's everyones mDK doing? I've been wrecking lately...Skoria + burning spell weave OP.

Currently running Grothdarr/Sun/Seducer. Damage is way up but really only works well in enclosed spaces.

These builds work against noobs but honestly against a proc set or against a good player in heavy, I just don't see this beating them out.

NBrookus · October 2016

Neighbor wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

Moglijuana wrote: »

How's everyones mDK doing? I've been wrecking lately...Skoria + burning spell weave OP.

Currently running Grothdarr/Sun/Seducer. Damage is way up but really only works well in enclosed spaces.

These builds work against noobs but honestly against a proc set or against a good player in heavy, I just don't see this beating them out.

You're right, and I'm in heavy, too.

I have almost no chance against a semi-competent player wearing one of the stam stacked proc set builds. I can't even plan on out-sustaining my opponent anymore because I can't eat that much damage without burning my own resources. Because these builds require absolutely no knowledge of their class to produce tons of damage they are even dangerous on raw recruits.

Yeah, I have an occasional 1vX moment... against other magicka classes and noobs. But I don't think there's any really strong mag DK build right now unless it's a full squishy light armor DPS relying on meat shields keeping those stam proc builds at range while they melt them. I'd rather be the meat shield; I like being tanky.

At this point I'm just goofing off playing with builds, toying with other classes and suicidally zerg diving to see how many I can take out before I die. Anything else is an exercise in frustration right now.

Ishammael · October 2016

After leaving for a few months and coming back to mDK, here is the result:

mDK is still hard mode. Yes, you have a bunch of new sets. No, they don't matter. Yes, you can still kill scrubs. The class needs some fundamental changes before it can viably compete.

Just play your magicka Templar in the interim. 10x stronger

Ghost-Shot · October 2016

Honestly, mDk feels like its actually in a decent place right now with the new gear options, I feel like the biggest thing we really need at this point is a heal. It's probably still the tougher spec to 1vX with but I really don't think thats what we should be balancing around. In duels and group play it feels pretty good. Here are the changes I would still like to see:

Dragons Blood

change the stam regen on GDB to minor so that its not nullified by a potion.
change both morphs to scale on max magicka/spell damage, not a BoL size heal but something useable.

Flames of Oblivion

I would like to kind of merge how this works with something along the lines of a of crystal frags and the NB spectral bow, no CC or anything just a heavy hitter to give an option out side of the traditional tanky way we've always played.
It would be a skill you activate and while active it would display the current animation it has but rather than randomly firing off it would proc a fire ball that you activate the ability again to use.
I'm not entirely sure what the best way to proc it would be, maybe like a 10 or 15% chance when deal flame damage while flames of oblivion is active to proc a fire ball, that is just a random proc chance I'm throwing out, something else may be better.
The idea is to use the concept of frags/spectral bow but not rip off those mechanics entirely and giving DK's control over the skill but still maintaining its proc design and providing a burst option.

Reflect

I still think the projectile cap on this should be raised to 6.

When I get sometime I will go through my thoughts in the google doc again and update it all, I think a lot of what I said in there should probably be adjusted for the current state of the game.

DKsUnite · October 2016

Yeh I feel like I should go back through and change some things. Last patch I really found my groove with mDK and saw that it was healing that I lacked and nothing else. Sustain also in some aspect. Skills cost way too much.

Stamden · October 2016

Let's talk about caster mDKs

I am surprised that caster (light armor w/ staff) mDKs get no attention at all, even on this post. The classic heavy armor mDK needs help, yes, but the caster DK has been in an even worse position for the entirety of this game. It's really a damn shame because caster DKs would be really cool to see more of in PvP.

The main problem is that all of our nukes and damage is melee only. Whip, engulfing flames, embers.. going in this close in light armor is a bad idea. If you compare caster DKs to caster Sorcs, you can see that they get outclassed in damage, shields, and mobility.

By adjusting a few skills, caster DKs can become more well rounded. While they may never be as good as caster Sorcs, they could become much more viable. So here is what needs to be done:

Stone Fist - This skill needs to become a 28m nuke (on the level of Crystal Frags). Currently this skill is completely useless. Instead of trying to buff a skill that has no purpose, it would be much better if it was turned into a useful skill for long range. This would give casters a reliable damage ability at at range, and also give them burst damage which is vastly superior to DoTs in PvP.

Dragon Blood - This skill needs to scale off magika. Caster Sorcs get shields, DKs should get healing. If it were changed into a HoT than that would also be at least better than what it currently is. For such an expensive skill to cast, it needs to be worth it.

Fiery Grip (Chains) - The current form of this skill just does not work that well in PvP. This is just due to the way Hard-CC timers work. As I have stated before, there should be a morph that turns this skill into a tether of sorts. It latches onto an enemy, and keeps them from going out of range for x amount of time. This would help DKs with the mobility that other classes have, which mDKs currently struggle a lot with.

pjwb16_ESO · October 2016

Neighbor wrote: »

Let's talk about caster mDKs

I am surprised that caster (light armor w/ staff) mDKs get no attention at all, even on this post. The classic heavy armor mDK needs help, yes, but the caster DK has been in an even worse position for the entirety of this game. It's really a damn shame because caster DKs would be really cool to see more of in PvP.

The main problem is that all of our nukes and damage is melee only. Whip, engulfing flames, embers.. going in this close in light armor is a bad idea. If you compare caster DKs to caster Sorcs, you can see that they get outclassed in damage, shields, and mobility.

By adjusting a few skills, caster DKs can become more well rounded. While they may never be as good as caster Sorcs, they could become much more viable. So here is what needs to be done:

Stone Fist - This skill needs to become a 28m nuke (on the level of Crystal Frags). Currently this skill is completely useless. Instead of trying to buff a skill that has no purpose, it would be much better if it was turned into a useful skill for long range. This would give casters a reliable damage ability at at range, and also give them burst damage which is vastly superior to DoTs in PvP.

Dragon Blood - This skill needs to scale off magika. Caster Sorcs get shields, DKs should get healing. If it were changed into a HoT than that would also be at least better than what it currently is. For such an expensive skill to cast, it needs to be worth it.

Fiery Grip (Chains) - The current form of this skill just does not work that well in PvP. This is just due to the way Hard-CC timers work. As I have stated before, there should be a morph that turns this skill into a tether of sorts. It latches onto an enemy, and keeps them from going out of range for x amount of time. This would help DKs with the mobility that other classes have, which mDKs currently struggle a lot with.

If you play a Caster DK you would probably use Fire Staff tho which will force you to kinda go melee too, cause wall and ele ring arent range which would force you into having a proper gap close which would probably result in running sword n board

light or heavy isnt a real discussion tho, light armor is in such a bad state you are going to deal as much damage in heavy and have similar sustain too

AverageJo3Gam3r · October 2016

I dunno about light vs heavy. After being a life long heavy user I recently switched to light, and my dps went up noticeably. With 5 impen, shields, and volatile armor, my survivability is the same as heavy in every scenario except when I am ganked. Getting insta gibbed is annoying.

Ghost-Shot · October 2016

DKsUnite wrote: »

Yeh I feel like I should go back through and change some things. Last patch I really found my groove with mDK and saw that it was healing that I lacked and nothing else. Sustain also in some aspect. Skills cost way too much.

Yeah skill costs are definitely a problem, I feel like the high skill costs were designed to compensate the resources we got from battle roar with dynamic ult, with out dynamic ult there's no reason our spammable should cost more than 2k magic and talons/breath almost 3500 without seducer.

DKsUnite · October 2016

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

DKsUnite wrote: »

Yeh I feel like I should go back through and change some things. Last patch I really found my groove with mDK and saw that it was healing that I lacked and nothing else. Sustain also in some aspect. Skills cost way too much.

Yeah skill costs are definitely a problem, I feel like the high skill costs were designed to compensate the resources we got from battle roar with dynamic ult, with out dynamic ult there's no reason our spammable should cost more than 2k magic and talons/breath almost 3500 without seducer.

More then half my skills i use cost over 3k magicka easily....

kessik221 · October 2016

A lot of the issues that i see with class abilities tie into pvp design issues. The way aiming, dodge rolling and blocking work vs skills, light and heavy attacks currently are inhibitive to fun and engaging pvp content.

First things first all attacks should have an effective range and area. In short you should have to aim. Next remove immunity frames from dodge rolling. You either dodged the attack or you didnt no more being immune to new attacks mid roll.

Second there should be a penalty for blocking vs different attacks. I can see dual wielding or 1 handed weapons even arrows being blocked with no problem. A giant stone fist? A mighty 2 handed weapon? Definitely going to be concussed if not knocked down or shield shattered. I propose that all skills get catagorized as heavy, medium or light attacks.

Heavy attacks can only be partially blocked -20% dmg and the person blocking recieves a movement penalty and is unable to block again for a set time. Medium attacks blocked only block 50% but incure no penalty. Light attacks can be 100% blocked with no penalty.

This puts more emphasis on skill and positioning rather than perma blocking and dodge rolling skills.

TheDefiantOne · October 2016

Great initiative ! I'll be honest i did not read all the comments since I looked at the credentials of who is implicated in this project and I know these guys have really good feadback and are smart players so... i'm sure all their suggestions make sense. One thing i'll say because I want to be sure that this will be incorporated in the document is that ZOS needs to look at the cost of DKs skills... DKs skills cost is high because it was based around the sustain from battle roar combined with dynamic ulti. Now that this doesnt exist anymore, the cost of our skills need to be reduce. I can run all dmg enchants on my stamina heavy armor classes, without investing anything in sustain and i am doing just fine. However, with mag DK i need to invest a lot in sustain, CP wise, with 1-2 cost reduction enchants plus heavy attack with resto every 7-8 seconds to keep me going... THIS needs to be looked at.

Also please, please and PLEASE do not overbuff our skills to do a bandaid fix. In order to avoid that, what needs to be fixed and buffed, as a priority..., is our passives. Our passives are in no way competitive with the other classes and this needs to be adressed. And obviously the fixes on dragonblood, dragon scales, chains, etc...

Finally my last point is that the way stam weapons and passives synergize compared to magicka weapons is the reason why dmg is so unbalanced. With maces and weapon passives, you can be at 10k + armor pen in heavy armor... however, with a magicka user in heavy armor, you can't achieve anything above 7k spell pen, and that's if you spec for penetration... If you run SnB, you are stock at 4k. This has a huge impact on damage...

Keep up the good feedback guys, i'm sure we will rise again !

Natas013 · October 2016

@TheDefiantOne, the synergies you mentioned with stam and stam weapons made me wonder, why is it that lightning attacks don't deal extra damage to those in 5+ heavy armor? I mean hears this walking sweaty conductor, they should take a little extra shock damage. Such ideas will likely never happen, but something along these lines may be all magicka need to be up there with stam in PvP.

Sharee · October 2016

Natas013 wrote: »

@TheDefiantOne, the synergies you mentioned with stam and stam weapons made me wonder, why is it that lightning attacks don't deal extra damage to those in 5+ heavy armor? I mean hears this walking sweaty conductor, they should take a little extra shock damage. Such ideas will likely never happen, but something along these lines may be all magicka need to be up there with stam in PvP.

Someone encased in metal armor would actually be better protected from electric currents than someone who is not:

A Faraday cage or Faraday shield is an enclosure used to block electric fields. It is formed by conductive material...

...They are also used to protect people and equipment against actual electric currents such as lightning strikes and electrostatic discharges, since the enclosing cage conducts current around the outside of the enclosed space and none passes through the interior.

Xvorg · November 2016

pjwb16_ESO wrote: »

Neighbor wrote: »

Let's talk about caster mDKs

I am surprised that caster (light armor w/ staff) mDKs get no attention at all, even on this post. The classic heavy armor mDK needs help, yes, but the caster DK has been in an even worse position for the entirety of this game. It's really a damn shame because caster DKs would be really cool to see more of in PvP.

The main problem is that all of our nukes and damage is melee only. Whip, engulfing flames, embers.. going in this close in light armor is a bad idea. If you compare caster DKs to caster Sorcs, you can see that they get outclassed in damage, shields, and mobility.

By adjusting a few skills, caster DKs can become more well rounded. While they may never be as good as caster Sorcs, they could become much more viable. So here is what needs to be done:

Stone Fist - This skill needs to become a 28m nuke (on the level of Crystal Frags). Currently this skill is completely useless. Instead of trying to buff a skill that has no purpose, it would be much better if it was turned into a useful skill for long range. This would give casters a reliable damage ability at at range, and also give them burst damage which is vastly superior to DoTs in PvP.

Dragon Blood - This skill needs to scale off magika. Caster Sorcs get shields, DKs should get healing. If it were changed into a HoT than that would also be at least better than what it currently is. For such an expensive skill to cast, it needs to be worth it.

Fiery Grip (Chains) - The current form of this skill just does not work that well in PvP. This is just due to the way Hard-CC timers work. As I have stated before, there should be a morph that turns this skill into a tether of sorts. It latches onto an enemy, and keeps them from going out of range for x amount of time. This would help DKs with the mobility that other classes have, which mDKs currently struggle a lot with.

If you play a Caster DK you would probably use Fire Staff tho which will force you to kinda go melee too, cause wall and ele ring arent range which would force you into having a proper gap close which would probably result in running sword n board light or heavy isnt a real discussion tho, light armor is in such a bad state you are going to deal as much damage in heavy and have similar sustain too

Who woud ever se elemental ring over force shock?

Maybe blockade is an option but ring?