Calling all PvP Magicka DKs - Document to the DEVs

DKsUnite

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Y7g3egZd5z0Sstn0XKKy7cznavWqoezpfQypLOz7kbY/edit?usp=sharing

So this is going to be a document i want to make with all of the magicka DKs to give to the DEVs at the next meeting
Please send me a private message with a email so i can invite you to edit and contribute your ideas if you so wish
I will only be giving out edit access to people I trust so sorry to the people i dont know (and hence dont trust) you HOWEVER, please leave a comment with a suggestion and i/someone will glady put it in

If you are making contributions, please try to think about pve mDK DPS being top tier already and stam DK already being top tier in pvp. Make sure your buffs only effect pvp mDK!!

Im not saying that all these buffs should be implemented but rather giving as many suggestions as possible. Explain why you think a change should happen aswell so they have a reason to implement it

Thanks

@Princess_Asgari @Ghostbane @Lord_Hev @Ishammael @Burning_Talons @xEcthelionx @Sypher @Armitas @Ghost-Shot @Bashev @ebethke_ESO @AverageJo3Gam3r @Aenlir @DUTCH_REAPER @PosternHouse @Joy_Division @DignifiedMouse

P.S - Someone tag Jules for me, i cant find her lol?
P.S.S. - please tag more people that you think will contribute or like to

Armitas

I wanted to see what people thought about this before I add it.

Empowering chains.
I chose the empowering chains morph because it was my only option as a PvP mDK if I wanted to gap close. However I immediately lamented the loss of pull chains when I returned to tanking in PvE. It's really one of the staples of a DK tank to have chains so that we can pull mobs into a pile with chains and talons. I would like to see this morph pull first and push if pull fails. The main reason we wanted them separated is because tanks were getting pulled away from the group unexpectedly. PvE tanks can pick unrelenting grip if they want a pull only chain now. So Empowering can do both again.

Having a pull push chain opens up so many tactical opportunities in PvP than simply a gap closer would allow. I have forced group wipes so many times through pull chains and killing an entire raid 1 at a time in a keep defense. But that option is no longer there and I'm missing out on a big tactical advantage. Sure there is always a possibility that you will get pulled to the enemy group but that is also a risk you can chose not to take by not casting it which is no different then now as it is currently only a forward gap closer.

_____
Still working on the additions. Will go through and make a lot of clarity edits later on.

DKsUnite

Armitas wrote: »

I wanted to see what people thought about this before I add it.

Empowering chains.
I chose the empowering chains morph because it was my only option as a PvP mDK if I wanted to gap close. However I immediately lamented the loss of pull chains when I returned to tanking in PvE. It's really one of the staples of a DK tank to have chains so that we can pull mobs into a pile with chains and talons. I would like to see this morph pull first and push if pull fails. The main reason we wanted them separated is because tanks were getting pulled away from the group unexpectedly. PvE tanks can pick unrelenting grip if they want a pull only chain now. So Empowering can do both again.

Having a pull push chain opens up so many tactical opportunities in PvP than simply a gap closer would allow. I have forced group wipes so many times through pull chains and killing an entire raid 1 at a time in a keep defense. But that option is no longer there and I'm missing out on a big tactical advantage. Sure there is always a possibility that you will get pulled to the enemy group but that is also a risk you can chose not to take by not casting it which is no different then now as it is currently only a forward gap closer.

personally dont like not knowing which is why it was changed in the first place to be two distinct morphs.

Ishammael

Leo,
I'm writing up my changes to include -- probably won't give you my email address. (I'll post them here)
~Ish

yodased

You didn't tag me and that is understandable, but I think what would make magic dk completely viable in pvp if one of the morphs of sea of flames made our fire dots un cleanse/purge able. Like force siphon or weakness to elements, a cast spells that makes your dots stick to that enemy.

This would make 1v1 vs all classes viable as a our main source of pressure damage and heals comes from dots, which evert class can just purge away

Draxys

great idea, when I have time to gather my thoughts into coherent suggestions, I'll contribute

DKsUnite

Ishammael wrote: »

Leo,
I'm writing up my changes to include -- probably won't give you my email address. (I'll post them here)
~Ish

is this because you are a super secret spy?

yodased wrote: »

You didn't tag me and that is understandable, but I think what would make magic dk completely viable in pvp if one of the morphs of sea of flames made our fire dots un cleanse/purge able. Like force siphon or weakness to elements, a cast spells that makes your dots stick to that enemy.

This would make 1v1 vs all classes viable as a our main source of pressure damage and heals comes from dots, which evert class can just purge away

was taking names from a other thread and didnt see you in there! ill add that suggestion

DKsUnite

Draxys wrote: »

great idea, when I have time to gather my thoughts into coherent suggestions, I'll contribute

just send me a pm when you are ready

Natas013

yodased wrote: »

You didn't tag me and that is understandable, but I think what would make magic dk completely viable in pvp if one of the morphs of sea of flames made our fire dots un cleanse/purge able. Like force siphon or weakness to elements, a cast spells that makes your dots stick to that enemy.

This would make 1v1 vs all classes viable as a our main source of pressure damage and heals comes from dots, which evert class can just purge away

Seeing as DK's primary damage is DoTs, I could live with this, provided it's limited to a single target at a time.

I've seen the idea tossed around that purged DoTs should do X% of their remaining damage… I like this idea as well, but it'd have to be a universal change and not just DK specific.

Asmael

Gonna get over a few abilities (not all, gotta work a bit )

Cauterize (morph of Inferno)
I have no words to say how bad this ability is. The ONLY use for it is if you're running in duo and don't want to use a resto staff to help your ally.

• It's unreliable, it hits an ally at random, no guarantee to hit the good one. Just compare it to Healing Ward, which is miles ahead.
• As a HoT (healing over time), it doesn't remotely compare to Rapid Regeneration. RR heals 2 targets, is cheap, has long range, and ticks every second, so if you get damaged, you have a guaranteed heal 1 second later.
• It has no beneficial effects besides healing. Why use it when you can use Combat Prayer, which heals multiple allies reliably, buff their damage, buff their resistances, and also guarantee to heal you.
• Already said, but doesn't heal the caster.
• Competes with Inner light. So, what you want? An unreliable / extremely conditional heal OR 7% max magicka, 2% mag recovery, anti-cloak + empower all in one?

Possible changes: Make it an AoE. Make it heal all allies (including caster) within its radius.

Stone giant (morph of Stone fist)
It's not cheap, deals pretty underwhelming damage, can be blocked, dodged, reflected, and the Minor Resolve buff is so underwhelming that it's always at the top list of buffs that are ignored when making choices. For information, 1320 physical resist is 2% physical mitigation. Major Resolve is 8%, dodge is 20%.

The CC is good, plus as a Earthen heart ability, it restores stamina, but the rest is so bad that it's almost never used -for good reason.

Obsidian Shard (morph of Stone fist)
The other morph of Stone fist, same issues as above, except a bit better. It's good against magicka builds who can't afford to dodge, block a lot or run Shuffle, but it's bad against stamina builds as a whole, especially when it competes directly with Fossilize. The heal is actually decent, just too many times, I just tried to use it against someone rolling Major Evasion, missing twice in a row, and ending up with no heal, no stun, no damage dealt.

In PvE, it's also too situational, healing a random ally near an enemy mob (so said ally doesn't have to run away), the projectile is slow and will not save said ally in time.

Possible changes: So, realistically, what will you use any of these morphs for? Stone giant has a longer range than Fossilize, but that's about it. Obsidian shard is nice if it lands at close range, but it's just too unreliable. You already have destructive clench that's comparable to those, if you're using a destro staff.

Sounds like a total rework is in order, I have some ideas, but need to think about something that's not too strong while still fitting the theme.

--

Won't mention Dragon blood, you already saw it in action @DKsUnite , even on the one build where it's meant to reach its full strength (70k HP, maximized healing received / done), it's still at best "ok". #WtbBattleSpiritRework

More coming soon™

Kilandros

First, many thanks to @DKsUnite for your hard work both here and in countless other threads over the last two years. Hopefully the Developers acknowledge your time by taking these suggestions seriously.

Class Vision
I think it helps to understand proposed changes by first understanding what is expected of and hoped for the class. I view the DK as an attrition-based class. That is, the DK should become stronger and more dangerous the longer the fight persists. His tool kit should reflect that by offering DoTs, HoTs, and superb resource management.

ARDENT FLAME:

Battle Standard - Base ultimate cost reduced from 250 to 200.
Standard of Might - Ultimate cost reduced from 250 to 200.

Fiery Grip
Empowering Chains - Consider changing to a teleport that sets target off balance, deals flame damage, and deals a small AoE DoT. Potentially remove Empower to balance.

Lava Whip - I hesitate to suggest a damage boost at the moment. I think that if our defense is buffed elsewhere, we could spec more into damage thus buffing this skill.

Inferno - Base ability now provides both Major Prophecy and Major Savagery while slotted. When activated, surround yourself in 8m flames dealing X damage per second for 15 seconds.
Flames of Oblivion - Flame damage now increases by X% every 2 seconds.
Cauterize - When activated, surround yourself in 8m healing flames that heal yourself and allies for X healing every second for 15 seconds.

DRACONIC POWER

Dragon Leap - Reduced cost from 125 ultimate to 110 and range increased to 28m from 20m become baseline.
Take Flight - Deals X physical damage and grants minor protection for 5 seconds upon landing.
Ferocious Leap - Deals X magic damage and no longer grants a shield, but now leaves a pool of molten fire at your landing location that deals X damage over 5 seconds.

Spiked Armor
Skill changed to "Juggernaut" - While slotted, gain Minor Magicka and Stamina regeneration. Activate to gain Major Evasion and Minor Protection for 10 seconds.
Serpent's Momentum - Also grants Major Expedition on activation
Serpent's Fury - Grants Minor Berserk on activation

Dragon's Blood - No longer affected by Battle Spirit. Instantly heals you for 25% of your MAXIMUM health and an additional X health over 20 seconds. Also grants Major Fortitude.

Inhale - Now also reduces the delay between the Inhale and Exhale by 10% per enemy hit. At 6 targets hit, delay would be reduced to 1.5 seconds from 2.5 seconds.

Elder Dragon - Rank 1 grants Major Resolve while any Draconic Power ability is active. Rank 2 grants Major Resolve and Major Ward while any Draconic Power ability is active.

EARTHEN HEART

Magma Armor - Duration increased so that the duration is around 15 seconds with 2 points invested into the Eternal Mountain passive.
Magma Shell - Increase the range of the shield. Shield no longer affected by battle spirit.

Stone Fist - I will take literally anything else. Literally anything.

Molten Weapons - Baseline effect now includes +40% heavy attack damage.
Molten Armaments - In addition to current effects, light and heavy attacks have a change to deal X flame damage over 2 seconds.

Helping Hands - Now also grants Minor Heroism for 5 seconds while activating an Earthen Heart ability while in combat.

DKsUnite

@Asmael let me know when you edit more so i can update it/if you want to contribute directly, message me your gmail

Jormasaurus

Great idea and I truly hope they appreciate the time and effort going into something like this. I'll have to take a closer look and see if I come up with suggestions of my own.

DKsUnite

Jormasaurus wrote: »

Great idea and I truly hope they appreciate the time and effort going into something like this. I'll have to take a closer look and see if I come up with suggestions of my own.

was wondering if you had a forum account >.> guess i found ya now >:D

AverageJo3Gam3r

Well done and well thought out! Captured most of the suggestions I've seen about mDKs. I added a few thoughts to the Google doc.

Moglijuana

I'd like to see Major Expedition added to Reflective Scales (make it a morph?) since having increased movement speed after a gap closer seems kind of redundant...also chains never works lol

Also, Ash Cloud and it's morphs should always be casted directly under me and one morph should give (a chance?) for major evasion.

Ishammael

Ishammael's suggestions:


Standard of Might
- I think this is OK. Because the list of buffs is so good, and its the #1 PvE ultimate, it should stay.

Shifting Standard
- Keep and heal debuff as-is
- Add a HoT and Minor Protection to allies that stand in the area of effect

Empowering Chains
- Remove Major Expedition and Empower
- Rework the "out-to-in" animation so that your character immediately moves forward when cast (like Invasion).
- Add a 2s knockdown and ~5s Major Breach
- The damage component should be an AoE fire DoT similar to Volatile Armor

Burning Embers
- Strong skill, no changes

Flame Lash
- Disagree on damage buffs
- DK damage is, and should be, the set of compiled DoTs on your opponent -- DK damage should come from outlasting your opponent.
- If DK receives defensive buffs, damage on whip will be fine because the DK player will be allowed to make better gearing choices to increase damage.

Inferno
- Skill has been useless since 1.5, needs to be completely re-worked
- Has the coolest animation of any skill in the entire game -- please keep this animation!!!!!!
- Morph 1: 6m range, AoE DoT that scales damage based on how long the opponent stands in its range.
- Morph 2: AoE HoT that scales the heal based on how many enemies are within range
- Do NOT make this a toggle
- Do NOT make this drain mana
- Choose an appropriate duration according to the power of the skill: 10s or so

Dragon Leap
- Good for stam builds. No changes.

Volatile Armor
- Strong skill, increase damage returned by ~10%

Hardened Armor
- Shield and Ward are two difference defense mechanisms -- don't think they should be on the same skill
- Remove shield
- Add Minor protection
- Now the player has to choose between a damage morph and a defensive morph

Burning Talons
- Probably the best DK skill now. No changes

Choking Talons
- Should do Magic damage. Otherwise the damage debuff is really strong.

Dragon Blood
- Leo, your analysis of the Health vs Magicka vs Stam trade is spot-on. To summarize: for ALL stam and magicka builds except mDK the primary damage resource is also the primary healing resource, e.g. if I increase my damage I also increase my defense.
- Dragon Blood is completely non-competitive in this environment.
- Proposed solution: simply exclude from the Battle spirit debuff.
- Replace GDB buffs with their "Minor" variants as they are redundant with potions

Reflective Plate
- Remove Minor Ward, its ***
- Increase projectiles reflected to 8
- CRITICAL: For both Reflective and Dragon Fire Scale, if a reflected skill contains a DoT component or a debuff (e.g. Venom arrow, Lethal injection) and that projectile is reflected, the DoT/Debuff STILL APPLIES to the DK. This, in most cases, completely defeats the purpose of the reflect. This should be recognized as a bug and fixed.

Dragon Fire Scale
- Good skill. No changes.

Draw Essence
- This skill was hugely nerfed when the number of targets increased to 6.
- It used to return mana based on the total damage done to targets. The current version which refends 10% of original cost per target is complete junk compared to the interrupt on Deep Breath

Elder Dragon
- Remove Health Recovery
- Make this reduce the duration of debuffs by 20%

Scaled Armor
- Should also give physical resist of same amount

Corrosive Armor
- Add spell penetration

Obsidian Shard
- Reduce cost by 20%
- Add Minor Maim

Stone Giant
- Re-work into a stamina skill
- Physical Damage

Igneous Weapons
- Small amount of AoE fire damage (6m, ~6k, like Voltaile)
- Five minor buffs: Ward, Resolve, Heroism, Sorcery, Brutality for 20s

Molten Armaments
- Good skill, leave as-is

Igneous Shield
- Good skill, no need to change

Fragmented Shield
- Simply boost the damage

Fossilize / Shattering Rocks
- Both are excellent choices. Leave as-is.

Eruption
- Good skill, leave as is. (especially for PvE)

Cinder Storm
- Used to be my favorite skill in the entire game
- Change to be ground-targeted at your feet like it used to be
- Add Major Evasion while standing in it.
- Reduce the snare to 20%.

Mountain's Blessing
- Remove Minor Brutality -- it is now on Igneous Weapons
- Rework the ultimate gain functionality
- The DK should be awarded ultimate for high-risk actions. For instance: award X ultimate when health drops below 50% and 2*X when below 25%.
- Cooldown: 2s
- Suggested X = 5.

Joy_Division

Excellent idea and thanks for the tag!

Been playing my DK a lot recently for the first time since last summer. I still find this class to be more frustrating than fun. My biggest issues:

DKs have abilities dedicated to certain functions that too lackluster and this they wind up getting similar abilities outside their classlines.

• Dragon Blood is a poor heal compared to restoration staff/rally.
• Even though I am magicka, I will use shield charge rather than Empowering Chains because the latter does not fire reliably and isn't very good compared to other gap-closers.
• Mage Light is better than Inferno.

I dislike the class ultimates available to me as a magicka DK in PvP.

• The CP system undermines Dragon Leap because it is physical. I also hate how the bombard skill shuts this down.
• Magma Shell is nice for people who wish to tank, but I do not.
• Banner is situationally strong but a huge potential waste of 250 ultimate.

I played a DK pre 1.6 and stomaching the questionable change/nerfs is frustration

• I'd much rather have the old Cinderstorm.
• I'd much rather have the old Inferno.
• The 4 projectile limit on Reflective Scales means zergs can use ranged projectiles and be relatively confident they will hit a DK.
• I still think 250 ultimate is too expensive for Banner

The game has changed, but DKs have not

• PvP is all about burst. DKs are about sustain.
• If you don't have a build dedicated to block, you must be mobile. DKs have none and have to go vampire to get it.
• The other classes means of resource maintenance has not been changed since launch, and in fact has gotten better with the change to some of their passives. DK Battleroar has been undermined by the removal of dynamic ultimate regen.

That's a lot of frustration. Give me the old Cinderstorm, a magicka morph of DK Leap that I could actually use in the lagfest bombard spam meta we play in, and a gap closer comparable to lotus fan/toppling charge and it would go a long way.

Lynx7386

What I want to see most is improvements to inferno/cauterize and dragon blood.

I also think the major mending buff from igneous shield should last longer. It was actually nerfed from 7 seconds to 6 when the shield durations were changed, while templars still have a 20 second major mending via their "house". At least make igneous shield's mending buff last 12 seconds.

Bashev

Shifting Standard - restore resources also when the ultimate is refreshed

Empowering Chains - fix it. If it works as invasion it would be awesome.

Flames of oblivion - hurricane style AoE which does damage and expands. It drains 1% magicka and stamina from your enemies every second. DKs do not have burst, they should drain the resources of his/her enemies. 15s duration free to cast but it drains 1000 magicka every second. If it is recast, it starts with the small radius again.

Ferocious Leap - Remove all negative effects, give you 6 seconds immunity to all CC, roots and snares plus the shield. Then this ultimate can be casted even when you are rooted.

Hardened Armor - the damage returned scales with health. 4% from your health.

Dragon blood - Remove battle spirit from its calculations. If you cast the heal and you are over 50%, it doesn't heal you but in the next 20 seconds if you drop under 50% it heals you automatically.

Reflective Plate - Absorb all projectiles for 4 seconds

Dragon Fire Scale - Reflect 4 projectiles in the next 8 seconds and it gives snare and root immunity (similar to forward momentum)

Iron skin - reduce the block cost with 10%

Elder Dragon - Reduce the ultimate cost with 10%

Scaled Armor - Physical resistance too.

Stone Giant - remove the CC and increase the damage and reduce the cost. The damage should be lower than molten whip. Nobody should take this skill for PvE over molten whip but it should give the chance for PvP for some range skill that you can combine with a staff for animation cancelling.

Fragmented Shield - damage should scale with health. Similar to blazing shield.

Cinder Storm - 20% dodge chance + slow + disorient maximum 3 enemies around you. The dot start ticking 3 seconds after the skill is casted.

Thanks for the topic. I hope that some of the devs will read it.

Jormasaurus

DKsUnite wrote: »

Jormasaurus wrote: »

Great idea and I truly hope they appreciate the time and effort going into something like this. I'll have to take a closer look and see if I come up with suggestions of my own.

was wondering if you had a forum account >.> guess i found ya now >:D

I hardly comment on anything but I read the forums on a daily basis.

Aenlir

This is a good idea, and I really hope wrobel takes these suggestions seriously. Thanks @DKsUnite

My main suggestions would be fixing dragon blood, evasion to eruption, and a rework to one of the chains to make it a magicka invasion (always go to target even if dodged). Also, elder dragon passive should be changed to give some form of ultimate when going under 50 percent hp. I would also like having the number of reflects increased, and minor protection to a morph of spiked armor.

Since people have listed many great ideas, I want to highlight the ones above. The issue I have currently with the class is mainly the lack of skill slots.

For example, I've found a build right now that I feel confident dueling, 1vxing, and doing small group with. However, it's just lacking the luxuries of the other classes I play. This is why a magicka invasion type skill, or evasion on eruption excites me. It would free up a slot to play with spiked armor or eruption.

Above all, FIX DRAGONBLOOD, it's not even good in pve compared to healing ward.

SneaK

Make Power Lash deal increased damage to low health enemies. (They still need to be off balance for this effect, hence Power Lash.)

Make Dragon Blood hit for a burst heal, followed by a HoT. After all, visually it appears that your heart is pumping excessively strong for awhile after you activate it.

Ghost-Shot

@DKsUnite pm'd you my gmail, thanks for setting this up Leo!

Burning_Talons

Nevermind

FloppyTouch

Green dragon blood back that is all! Its so simple ugh was a okay heal at very low health that had a high cost this is the only true fix the mdk needs won't make us op won't change pve it's so simple

tennant94

Buff dragon blood.

tennant94

Engulfing flame: Changed this skill to increase fire attack damage by 50 % to targets below 33% health. Removed the 10% increase to fire damage effects.

Dragon blood: increase healing numbers it's very weak compared to other heals plus it costs a lot.

Green dragon blood: grants MINOR endurance

Burning embers: removed the over the top heal and replaced with 20 second duration.

Hardened armor: changed name to 'ancient armor' grants major ward and major resolve and lasts 30 seconds.

Standard of might: 'creates an earthquake on activation' stunning all targets for 2 seconds. Also snares any targets within the standards radius by 50%. The current effects of dragon knight standard will remain.

Iron skin passive: reduce damage taken whilst blocking by 10% and reduce block cost by 10%.

Ferocious leap: now deals flame damage which is increased by up to 50% on low health targets.

Fragmented shield: renamed skill to 'crystalised shield' grants major heroism for 6 seconds and a small damage shield.

BurritoESO

Dragon blood should be unaffected by battle spirit, but capped at like a 10k heal or something so we don't have DK's running around with 50k health getting 30k+ heals being stupid op. Also having ways of getting major/minor heroism would help a lot in outnumbered/small-scale fights. Have ferocious leap, one of the morphs of leap, be a magicka morph. 3 quick ideas have

psychotic13

You're all asking for like every skill to be changed, dreams don't come true in this game.

DKsUnite

psychotic13 wrote: »

You're all asking for like every skill to be changed, dreams don't come true in this game.

Hence why I wrote I don't think everything should be done but giving suggestions on everything gives a better chance they will take something from the list