ZoS, can you please update us on your plans to deal with multiple proc sets?

Alucardo · October 2016

Valencer wrote: »

Proc sets simply shouldn't have as much of an impact as they do right now. It's ridiculous.

Best solution? Remove them because theyre completely silly in a PvP setting.
Another option is making their damage scale off your actual stats so you would need to go full glass cannon to reach the current values. And maybe make them unable to crit...

Sounds good, but I use Skoria on my stam builds in PVP

Solariken · October 2016

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

IMO, proc sets should:
1. scale off of max stat, with current power level being equivalent to their power on glass cannon builds. No more full tanks throwing on a proc set and having free access to burst.
2. Require build/skill considerations. No more "procs off of damage," make it require specific player actions/damage types, etc. Grothdar is also guilty here, but they could just change it to "procs off of fire" or "Procs off of dots" and it would still fulfill it's role"
3. Allow for counterplay. No invisible, unavoidable damage spikes. (I'm actually cool with Velidreth's amount of available counterplay, if it were slightly more difficult to proc).

Great insights here @DeadlyRecluse, I support this as a great guideline for ZOS to start tweaking. However...

I appreciate the time the OP (and many others) have taken to call out these issues, but I don't expect ZOS to do much about it - they are some of the worst (or laziest?) PvP/combat designers in the industry and they just do what they want when they feel like it anyway.

Alucardo · October 2016

@Wrobel I'm sorry, but this is getting *** ridiculous. I'm getting more proc damage than ability damage in my recaps. Is this really where you want the game headed?

Balthyzar · October 2016

Can we nerf how much pvpers complain when they die? Stop making excuses or go back to your fps.

God_flakes · October 2016

Balthyzar wrote: »

Can we nerf how much pvpers complain when they die? Stop making excuses or go back to your fps.

Such constructive contribution. Think of this all on your own, did ya?

Derra · October 2016

Joy_Division wrote: »

Most importantly, just 6 weeks ago or so on the NA server, both standard PvP campaigns were fully locked (Trueflame with a 40+ queue!) and even the non-CP one had up to three bars and was bustling with action. Now, 1 bar pops are so common except Trueflame, which I can get into without a que. I already farmed my gear. Multiple sets already. People aren’t PvPing.

Just a thought on my part that has no direct relation as to proccsets and if they´re broken or not.
But people not spending their time in pvp might also be due to the fact that the loot system designed for one tamriel is absolutely horrible when looking at dungeon sets.

I´m trying to get a specific dungeon set weapon currently and i´ve been trying to get it for the last 6 days. I´ve spend 80% of my playtime farming one dungeon atleast 200 times by now (probably more).

If people are struck with the same luck as i am they´re simply stuck in pve and will continue to be for atleast a few weeks.

It´s a shame that every single competetive gearset is 100% pve grind as of now.

Sallington · October 2016

Derra wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Most importantly, just 6 weeks ago or so on the NA server, both standard PvP campaigns were fully locked (Trueflame with a 40+ queue!) and even the non-CP one had up to three bars and was bustling with action. Now, 1 bar pops are so common except Trueflame, which I can get into without a que. I already farmed my gear. Multiple sets already. People aren’t PvPing.

Just a thought on my part that has no direct relation as to proccsets and if they´re broken or not.
But people not spending their time in pvp might also be due to the fact that the loot system designed for one tamriel is absolutely horrible when looking at dungeon sets.

I´m trying to get a specific dungeon set weapon currently and i´ve been trying to get it for the last 6 days. I´ve spend 80% of my playtime farming one dungeon atleast 200 times by now (probably more).

If people are struck with the same luck as i am they´re simply stuck in pve and will continue to be for atleast a few weeks.

It´s a shame that every single competetive gearset is 100% pve grind as of now.

Design PvP sets that are actually good for PvP, make them obtainable through AP, and you solve half the problem.

How many people run gear sets they get in Cyrodil? Maybe a bow user or two?

Another idea: Change Impen so that it also decreases incoming proc damage

frozywozy · October 2016

Joy_Division wrote: »

ZOS_JohanaB wrote:

We've closed this thread for lack of constructive conversation. We understand your frustration but we ask that if you wish to express it you do so in a more productive manner.

@Wrobel @ZOS_BrianWheeler

OK.

If I am “more productive” than the 20 or so threads ZoS has closed, down, can ZoS at least in return be as thoughtful and productive in a basic “state of PvP, here is where we are thinking of going update” as I am in this thread?

In my humble opinion, I think most of the complaints by PvPers on this forum are a little overstated and with the exception of proc-set builds and those brave hardcore magicka DKs, there is in most cases, a reasonably competitive balance out there. This does not mean I enjoy the near infinite sustain-high heal-high burst-high damage avoidance/mitigation that most specs can roll out in Cyrodiil. However, since it is not that difficult to make a build that does this (of course it’s quite another to play it effectively), I would attribute most deaths and defeats due to the player’s mistake or circumstance than to poor balance. In short, I disagree with most of the “Nerf X” or “X is cancerous build” threads and feel they are made from subjective and myopic frustration.

There is, however, one issue that needs IMMEDIATE attention:

Multiple instantaneous high damage procs. There is no need to rehash what has been said for months. There reasons for addressing the issue now are many and obvious:

Most importantly, just 6 weeks ago or so on the NA server, both standard PvP campaigns were fully locked (Trueflame with a 40+ queue!) and even the non-CP one had up to three bars and was bustling with action. Now, 1 bar pops are so common except Trueflame, which I can get into without a que. I already farmed my gear. Multiple sets already. People aren’t PvPing.

This is a critical issue and needs the entire ESO PvP community’s input. I know you work hard on your internal testing, but we’ve been frustrated with this for months. What if your well-intended resolution/fix doesn’t quite work out in the next patch? Then we will have to wait another balance cycle and thus will have been plagued by this proc meta that has driven some many away for over a year!. For the love of the 8 divines, can you please recognize the importance of this issue and make an exception to your usual procedure of no-balance change without a patch and let us help you out with the ideas you are tossing about by trying the most promising one you are thinking of on the Live server? Yes, please, please, please use me as a testing dummy: I would much prefer that to insta-dying one more time to a viper, velidreth, widomaker simultaneous proc.

And, I’m sure it needs not be said but this is so important that I’m taking no chance, the “solution” should not be to give magicka users the same ability to have their own ridiculous procs. In particular, I don’t find it healthy that everyone just goes for damage damage damage sets, but it would be at least bearable if these things did not proc at the same time on demand.

It's only October. Are you really going to make us suffer through this terrible mechanic for months ... especially since we have already suffered for months! Please, please, please put for once be a bit proactive here and let us give you some feedback so Update 13 can roll out with a solid mechanic already in place to prevent proc set abuse. Why do we have to beg for this logical, efficient solution that 95% of your community desperately wants? It makes zero sense and begs for an explanation from Zos!

The simplest and easiest to implement band-aid fix that has been floated around is to add a global cooldown to insta-damage procs. Just try it out please and see how it works out. If it doesn’t, then fine, we gave it a go and that way we’ll at least have narrowed down the options so that ZoS has more data to come up with something better for the next balance patch. If it does work, great, then that’s more time for ZoS to develop other areas and a better PvP for all of us starting today.
It is not necessary to nerf PvE. Let’s not ruin their part of ESO for a specific Cyrodiil problem

Thus make it part of the Battlespirit mechanic.

I have no problem with DoT and debuff procs, leave them alone

A global cooldown of 2 seconds is enough time for a player who is hit by a proc to recognize the damage and react accordingly before the next one hit. 1 second is not enough to react and fire off another action. I could live with a 3 second cooldown, though we have so many methods of damage mitigation/avoidance that I would deem anything longer overkill.

I am also of the belief that there are 2 sets that are particularly overperforming: the tremorscale and widowmaker. Tremorscale does way too much (AOE damage, almost on demand proc, high damage, long 70% snare) for a 4 second cooldown. Widowmaker can proc multiple times in rapid succession by someone who uses duel wielding:

The final thing I will say about damage sets is that they way better than the utility or even defensive oriented sets available.

There is no way this:

can compete with this:

Change all 5pc bonuses that adds damage / sustain / defense into utility.
Change the whole Champion points system that adds damage / sustain / defense into utility.
Keep only 2/3/4pc gear bonuses, skills / passives, traits and enchants to add damage / sustain / defense.

DHale · October 2016

Sigh... getting hit by multiple people and wondering why you died. Not to bury the lead, the plan is to make more proc sets and this is good. Multiple good sets not one or two.

frozywozy · October 2016

DHale wrote: »

Sigh... getting hit by multiple people and wondering why you died. Not to bury the lead, the plan is to make more proc sets and this is good. Multiple good sets not one or two.

Making sets that add damage, sustain and survivability eliminate 80% of the sets available in the game. As @Joy_Division mentionned, nobody is going to use a set that give permanent minor expedition when you can significantly increase your damage, sustain, survivability with another one. All utility sets are getting thrown off the balance.

In small scale PVP, you have to run proc sets otherwise you don't kill your target quick enough and you eventually gets zerged down. Something that I have to give the credit to Zenimax for is all the buff sets available in the game at the moment. It's insane the amount of options a group of 12-16players have. I wish sometimes I would be the raid leader of an active group of players, it's crazy the buffs and debuffs you can have at your disposal in PvP if you use the proper sets.

Sureshawt · October 2016

Joy and I have had our differences of opinion in the past but this post I agree with completely. Very well written as always.

I'm not going to add much to the conversation except I feel very strongly that when the outcome of PvP is determined by stacking random chance procs then PvP is no longer about the players and is all about the gear.

Now if ZoS feels the need to entice PvPrs into experiencing their PvE content so they can compete in a game of random chance Proc vs Proc then that is OK as it is their game ultimately. However, they should at least come out and state forthrightly that this what they intend so we as customers can make an informed decision about whether to stay or look elsewhere for skill based PvP.

Mojomonkeyman · October 2016

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

ebethke_ESO wrote: »

Generally the proc conditions are much easier to meet on stamina than magicka.

Viper, Widowmaker, Tremorscale are good examples of sets that, when procc'ed, do not allow for counterplay and contribute significant pressure on opponents at little cost.

These two are huge. You have to build intentionally to get productive uses out of neireneth or skoria, and neireneth is easily avoidable, skoria is telegraphed.

Stamina builds just equip a proc set and go to town, no build adjustment necessary.

IMO, proc sets should:
1. scale off of max stat, with current power level being equivalent to their power on glass cannon builds. No more full tanks throwing on a proc set and having free access to burst.
2. Require build/skill considerations. No more "procs off of damage," make it require specific player actions/damage types, etc. Grothdar is also guilty here, but they could just change it to "procs off of fire" or "Procs off of dots" and it would still fulfill it's role"
3. Allow for counterplay. No invisible, unavoidable damage spikes. (I'm actually cool with Velidreth's amount of available counterplay, if it were slightly more difficult to proc).

Wow. Someone actually understood what quality pvp needs. Rare sight on the eso forums. Post more please!

DeadlyRecluse · October 2016

Alucardo wrote: »

@Wrobel I'm sorry, but this is getting *** ridiculous. I'm getting more proc damage than ability damage in my recaps. Is this really where you want the game headed?

Did you try dual wielding to use twin slashes though?

Ankael07 · October 2016

First 2 vipers triggered from ranged attacks and last viper was the finishing move that somehow didnt even need a melee attack.

GreenSoup2HoT · October 2016

Xsorus wrote: »

you guys keep talking about Proc Sets and such while ignoring the fact that PvP is dominated by Magicka User Trains of Players using the Destro Ult with no actual Counter to it because they gutted things like Prox Det.

and people said the ult was trash. i knew it was gonna happen.

GreenSoup2HoT · October 2016

Ankael07 wrote: »

First 2 vipers triggered from ranged attacks and last viper was the finishing move that somehow didnt even need a melee attack.

viper procs before melee attacks its weird. thats why you are seeing this

Manoekin · October 2016

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

you guys keep talking about Proc Sets and such while ignoring the fact that PvP is dominated by Magicka User Trains of Players using the Destro Ult with no actual Counter to it because they gutted things like Prox Det.

and people said the ult was trash. i knew it was gonna happen.

It's the 2nd best ult in the game really. Proxy was dumb because of its ability to be used in stealth. The counter is the same as old proxy where you just don't stand in the aoe. I haven't found it difficult to play against since it's fairly obvious when groups are going to use it, and single players or small groups generally aren't putting out enough damage that players in correct builds should be able to get away.

Minalan · October 2016

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

you guys keep talking about Proc Sets and such while ignoring the fact that PvP is dominated by Magicka User Trains of Players using the Destro Ult with no actual Counter to it because they gutted things like Prox Det.

and people said the ult was trash. i knew it was gonna happen.

It's an expensive Ult, and only sorcs are running around using it because it only costs like 200 for them.

Its one decent thing magicka classes have. It also telegraphs its pending effect for two long seconds. It has a huge red circle, and at all times players are free to dodge roll out. The storm morph that moves with the caster just sits there if you stun or fear him, and it fizzles out by the time he gets back up and turns around.

And to be fair, the initial ult WAS trash until they buffed it on PTS. Twice. That's still nothing compared to berserker though in terms of effectiveness. Stam users won't be happy though until magicka is nothing but a few useless spells that can easily be ignored (not even blocked or reflected)

PS: can I get a two second telegraph on dawnbreaker, berserker, and incap strike? No? **** ***.

Rohamad_Ali · October 2016

There is no point for me to load into Cyrodiil anymore or bother dueling .

@Wrobel
@ZOS_BrianWheeler

It's broke .

Alucardo · October 2016

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

@Wrobel I'm sorry, but this is getting *** ridiculous. I'm getting more proc damage than ability damage in my recaps. Is this really where you want the game headed?

Did you try dual wielding to use twin slashes though?

HAHA that "hint" made me lol. Can't say I've ever seen it before

Alucardo · October 2016

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

There is no point for me to load into Cyrodiil anymore or bother dueling .

@Wrobel
@ZOS_BrianWheeler

It's broke .

Yeah I'm done too. Went to a three way fight today (which are usually pretty fun), but all you could see and hear was tremorscale and selene's procs all over the place, then Viper polluting your death recap.
Built a nes/snes/sega console out of a raspberry pi, so I'll be reliving the classics until ESO is fixed.

Rohamad_Ali · October 2016

Alucardo wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

There is no point for me to load into Cyrodiil anymore or bother dueling .

@Wrobel
@ZOS_BrianWheeler

It's broke .

Yeah I'm done too. Went to a three way fight today (which are usually pretty fun), but all you could see and hear was tremorscale and selene's procs all over the place, then Viper polluting your death recap.
Built a nes/snes/sega console out of a raspberry pi, so I'll be reliving the classics until ESO is fixed.

Seen it on every StamSorc today . Gone fishing until the slowest department at Zennimax gets a fix .

olsborg · October 2016

Procced sets that deal dmg needs to have a global cooldown, or some other form of limit on them, its getting ridiculous in cyrodiil.

Xsorus · October 2016

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

you guys keep talking about Proc Sets and such while ignoring the fact that PvP is dominated by Magicka User Trains of Players using the Destro Ult with no actual Counter to it because they gutted things like Prox Det.

and people said the ult was trash. i knew it was gonna happen.

That's cause people are idiots

Hence why I was calling them idiots on the PTS forums whining about it.

NordSwordnBoard · October 2016

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Jaronking · October 2016

Well I know what am doing until January or whenever the fix the proc mess hopefully before June am playing 2k17 and BF1.Come at me ZOS I'll rather give my Money to freaken EA than ZOs anymore.This current patch is just ridiculous you give people 15k+ free damage from just light attacks.What's the point of playing PVP is what PVERS said we want the game to be us just light attacking each other.That's all it is people light attacking and procing 3 different sets.

GreenSoup2HoT · October 2016

Good idea?: Proc sets scale off weapon damage and critical chance. (Plus an addition 25% reduction to effectiveness in general).

This way tanks cant get insane burst from them, just minor. Then glass builds can still be bursty but lack survivability.

At this point its whatever. I just dont duel meta proc heavy players as they know its cheese.

Thoughts?

sirston · October 2016

@Joy_Division Yo first things you might want to change the C word to like wolbel build or the procinging build's since they are going full dark brotherhood on PVP post.

Also the proc builds just nuts as a one of the few Magic DK's that I feel is left now day's it makes it impossible to play. I have No gap closers Chain don't count.
On Top of all that reflect is as useful as chains now day's since every person spams poison arrow it still gets through. Then now Im getting nuked by people I know I could beat. can destroy me with there sets doing all the damage, and all my abilitys cost 60% More due to poison! takes the fun out of the game.

Derra · October 2016

frozywozy wrote: »

DHale wrote: »

Sigh... getting hit by multiple people and wondering why you died. Not to bury the lead, the plan is to make more proc sets and this is good. Multiple good sets not one or two.

Making sets that add damage, sustain and survivability eliminate 80% of the sets available in the game. As @Joy_Division mentionned, nobody is going to use a set that give permanent minor expedition when you can significantly increase your damage, sustain, survivability with another one. All utility sets are getting thrown off the balance.

In small scale PVP, you have to run proc sets otherwise you don't kill your target quick enough and you eventually gets zerged down. Something that I have to give the credit to Zenimax for is all the buff sets available in the game at the moment. It's insane the amount of options a group of 12-16players have. I wish sometimes I would be the raid leader of an active group of players, it's crazy the buffs and debuffs you can have at your disposal in PvP if you use the proper sets.

I don´t understand at all why some utility sets offer minor buffs for utility - like expedition when others in comparison offer major buffs (treasurehunter, toothrow, dreughking, rattlecage) for dmg purposes + additional bonuses.

Who thought that those were even remotely comparable in any form.

Essiaga · October 2016

Joy_Division wrote: »

ZOS_JohanaB wrote:

We've closed this thread for lack of constructive conversation. We understand your frustration but we ask that if you wish to express it you do so in a more productive manner.

@Wrobel @ZOS_BrianWheeler

OK.

If I am “more productive” than the 20 or so threads ZoS has closed, down, can ZoS at least in return be as thoughtful and productive in a basic “state of PvP, here is where we are thinking of going update” as I am in this thread?

In my humble opinion, I think most of the complaints by PvPers on this forum are a little overstated and with the exception of proc-set builds and those brave hardcore magicka DKs, there is in most cases, a reasonably competitive balance out there. This does not mean I enjoy the near infinite sustain-high heal-high burst-high damage avoidance/mitigation that most specs can roll out in Cyrodiil. However, since it is not that difficult to make a build that does this (of course it’s quite another to play it effectively), I would attribute most deaths and defeats due to the player’s mistake or circumstance than to poor balance. In short, I disagree with most of the “Nerf X” or “X is cancerous build” threads and feel they are made from subjective and myopic frustration.

There is, however, one issue that needs IMMEDIATE attention:

Multiple instantaneous high damage procs. There is no need to rehash what has been said for months. There reasons for addressing the issue now are many and obvious:

Most importantly, just 6 weeks ago or so on the NA server, both standard PvP campaigns were fully locked (Trueflame with a 40+ queue!) and even the non-CP one had up to three bars and was bustling with action. Now, 1 bar pops are so common except Trueflame, which I can get into without a que. I already farmed my gear. Multiple sets already. People aren’t PvPing.

This is a critical issue and needs the entire ESO PvP community’s input. I know you work hard on your internal testing, but we’ve been frustrated with this for months. What if your well-intended resolution/fix doesn’t quite work out in the next patch? Then we will have to wait another balance cycle and thus will have been plagued by this proc meta that has driven some many away for over a year!. For the love of the 8 divines, can you please recognize the importance of this issue and make an exception to your usual procedure of no-balance change without a patch and let us help you out with the ideas you are tossing about by trying the most promising one you are thinking of on the Live server? Yes, please, please, please use me as a testing dummy: I would much prefer that to insta-dying one more time to a viper, velidreth, widomaker simultaneous proc.

And, I’m sure it needs not be said but this is so important that I’m taking no chance, the “solution” should not be to give magicka users the same ability to have their own ridiculous procs. In particular, I don’t find it healthy that everyone just goes for damage damage damage sets, but it would be at least bearable if these things did not proc at the same time on demand.

It's only October. Are you really going to make us suffer through this terrible mechanic for months ... especially since we have already suffered for months! Please, please, please put for once be a bit proactive here and let us give you some feedback so Update 13 can roll out with a solid mechanic already in place to prevent proc set abuse. Why do we have to beg for this logical, efficient solution that 95% of your community desperately wants? It makes zero sense and begs for an explanation from Zos!

The simplest and easiest to implement band-aid fix that has been floated around is to add a global cooldown to insta-damage procs. Just try it out please and see how it works out. If it doesn’t, then fine, we gave it a go and that way we’ll at least have narrowed down the options so that ZoS has more data to come up with something better for the next balance patch. If it does work, great, then that’s more time for ZoS to develop other areas and a better PvP for all of us starting today.
It is not necessary to nerf PvE. Let’s not ruin their part of ESO for a specific Cyrodiil problem

Thus make it part of the Battlespirit mechanic.

I have no problem with DoT and debuff procs, leave them alone

A global cooldown of 2 seconds is enough time for a player who is hit by a proc to recognize the damage and react accordingly before the next one hit. 1 second is not enough to react and fire off another action. I could live with a 3 second cooldown, though we have so many methods of damage mitigation/avoidance that I would deem anything longer overkill.

I am also of the belief that there are 2 sets that are particularly overperforming: the tremorscale and widowmaker. Tremorscale does way too much (AOE damage, almost on demand proc, high damage, long 70% snare) for a 4 second cooldown. Widowmaker can proc multiple times in rapid succession by someone who uses duel wielding:

The final thing I will say about damage sets is that they way better than the utility or even defensive oriented sets available.

There is no way this:

can compete with this:

I think proc should be like synergies. You get a que to hit 'X' in the next 2-6 seconds to activate the damage. Similar to CF and Merciless Resolve work, or actually synergies like bone shield, shackle, gravity crush, etc. This requires the player to earn the damage rather then getting it for spamming attacks. I don't mind proc on block or dodge roll, etc sets. You're taking action to gain them. Swinging away or taking damage doesn't require an skill at all.

I think a lot of the problem is that stamina has mitigation that is more passive. Cast vigor, rally, suffle and you're kinda covered for a couple of seconds to be very offensive, which proc free damage. Where as magicka build stops DPS to mitigate or heal because they need to be cast in the moment. Magicka shield last 6 seconds and require solid investment to make them last past an opponents globe cool down (LA cancel a skill = broken shield). I personally hate shields and vigor. I hate proc sets and hate pots and poisons and armor sets that pretty much kill class identity, especially stam builds. You almost don't need class skills to build a very solid stam build. They provide far to much benefits IMO.

Very few choices need to be made playing ESO. It's more about knowing what to chose.

Take alchemy ... CC immune for 15 seconds when actual CC immunity is only 5 seems. Stupid. What buffs don't you want to earn? Yeah you can have two or more of those too. No hard decisions need to be made. Have you're cake, a pie, and a plate of brownies too.

CP is the same thing. Fire or Shock damage? No decision needs to be made. Their all under the same constellation. Not much variation to be had here. Just more obvious buffing so we can appease those that desire 'progression.' Got to have player gaps.

It's terrible for balance and unwelcoming to new players. PVP is ever sinking and proc sets and this bloated buff system, I believe are just a part of it.

Dueling seem more popular then Cyrodiil at the moment. When Battle Grounds come (which will likely be delayed to hopefully catch a seasonal pop increase in PVP) there might only be need for one campaign.