Scaling killed the game (for me)

KimberlyannKitsuragi · October 2016

I've discovered though that when I made a new toon with a new class and everything, that it was much easier to learn rather than wasting my time trying to relearn a class. Honestly, I'm much happier and its renewed my love to play

may I suggest making a new toon and see how you feel?

nemisan · October 2016

Haha! Freedom, you can't handle freedom...the world is yours to explore as you like, and you want to be lead around like a sheep?

dominic.iraceb14_ESO · October 2016

How is this working anyway.. I've grouped with lots of <50 lvl players this week in Craglorn and noticed that my mobs were still at 160,, I thought they were suppose to scale to the group leaders level?

Asardes · October 2016

dominic.iraceb14_ESO wrote: »

How is this working anyway.. I've grouped with lots of <50 lvl players this week in Craglorn and noticed that my mobs were still at 160,, I thought they were suppose to scale to the group leaders level?

Nope. Now the scaling system that worked in certain areas like DLC zones, Cyrodiil or group dungeons scaled trough the grouping tool is applied to all areas in the game. The mobs are always CP160, but you're not yet CP160 you're "battle leveled" to that. Meaning your stats are scaled based on some algorithm to match what the devs think should be the stats for a CP160 player. Lower level characters receive more stat buff to compensate for the lack of skills and CP and the buffs taper off as you level. So worst off players are just those who are near CP160 because they receive no buff, they most likely don't have leveled gear yet, and the time spent playing is most likely not enough yet to have learned their build sufficiently well. There are in fact plenty of max CP players who have yet to do the latter, even for their main player. You encounter them quite often when PuG-ing.

Elsonso · October 2016

Sardath wrote: »

I really don't understand how people can complain this much on a feature that improves the game to many and takes literally nothing from you.

Well, the word "literally" aside, they took away some of the way people were playing the game. They changed how crafting and harvesting worked, which changed for the worse how some people play. They took away the ability to set one's difficulty deliberately when playing in over and under leveled areas.

To be certain, there are positive aspects, but I do wish they had spent more time mitigating the game play that apparently does not interest them.

Arthur_Spoonfondle · October 2016

Sardath wrote: »

I really don't understand how people can complain this much on a feature that improves the game to many and takes literally nothing from you.

The level is nothing but a gating method that restricts what areas you can go to and what mobs can you take on. You can do literally the exact same things before the patch. Nobody is forcing you to do anything, to stray off the beaten path.

So people say that they lost sense of progression. Was a number indicating your strength magically the sole reason for your progression? People act like you don't level up and aquire new abilities, you don't get stats and you don't get CPs.

Boss beating you? Have you tried potions, food and maybe a little atention to what gear you have? A little awareness to the fight mechanics help too.

The game isn't hard - it was just too easy before because you were carried by your level.

Everyone is entitled to their point of view, even you but, because someone does not feel the same way as you does not them wrong, they just have a different opinion.

crowzub17_ESO · October 2016

lordrichter wrote: »

Sardath wrote: »

I really don't understand how people can complain this much on a feature that improves the game to many and takes literally nothing from you.

Well, the word "literally" aside, they took away some of the way people were playing the game. They changed how crafting and harvesting worked, which changed for the worse how some people play. They took away the ability to set one's difficulty deliberately when playing in over and under leveled areas.

To be certain, there are positive aspects, but I do wish they had spent more time mitigating the game play that apparently does not interest them.

Bingo they took away and added very little other than catering to the ones that either don't have the skill or time to level up like the rest of us.

Basically in one update they made me spending all that time since beta leveling up 10 plus toons to maxed out useless.

I do have the cp points but they really doing effect the 0 to 50 lvling 10 times over I did as I earned ZERO cp from that time spent.

Heck I found the changes to the cp system dumb too. Basically they made it so all you had to do was get to level 50 and presto your toon was maxed out. How much gear did that render USELESS. How much work had people put into collecting gear on their alts for their other toons they were leveling to have it all render obsolete in one update.

Even destroyed crafting for anything but end game gear once you hit 50. Made all the mats from 50 to max useless and dumb to keep.

But Im like ok whatever floats their boat.

Then this update. Its like not even playing the same game anymore. Before someone (and I WILL quote this part if they do) comes back with you can fight and do the same stuff. You can't. I cannot get to the areas that had x level mobs in it with them being free of level 5 newbies running around harvesting mats and other things.

Which isn't as big a deal to me as it is to the wife as it really messes up her doing writs since she isn't good at combat and has no interest in combat. She like harvesting and making things for the writs. Now its like doing end game battles just to do her writs all the time. She does not enjoy this and this update took that away from her. I imagine there were other people who had wives doing the same thing and zenos's bottom line is going to reflect that.

Also I for one LIKED being able to go to areas that were newbie free. I EARNED that privilege no matter how you look at it. I had areas I could go to that had no one there but other people that had put the time and energy into this game like I had.

The maturity level in those areas was amazingly higher than the starting zones to say the least.

At this point the wife is only vaguely interested in the housing update. I doubt I'll play anymore other than to help the wife if they don't undo some of this and I doubt they will. So its up to her if we will keep paying $30 a month for this or not. Odds are not looking good though.

One last part is IF this game had of been this way in beta I never would of bought and I never would of played it to level up toons.

When I play a game like this I want to level up. I want the "leveling" to have obvious effects. As it is you can use the same gear all the way to lvl 50 that you started with. How much sense does that make? Whats the point in crafting anything other than set bonuses?

You cant go back to x area and see any progress. Because those same monsters you fought getting off the boat in the starter area are just as hard 10 levels later as they were when you first got off the boat back at level 2 or 3 let alone cp 531?!?!?!? Yeah that makes sense......

Bobby_V_Rockit · October 2016

Woo! No more useless leather!

Hluill · October 2016

While my fifth through thirtieth leveled toons are kinda more powerful, my toon with forty Champion Points feels gimped. One of the things I liked about this game is that it wasn't about spamming attacks. Now it is. It was about playing "your way". Now it isn't.

hmsdragonfly · October 2016

lordrichter wrote: »

Sardath wrote: »

I really don't understand how people can complain this much on a feature that improves the game to many and takes literally nothing from you.

Well, the word "literally" aside, they took away some of the way people were playing the game. They changed how crafting and harvesting worked, which changed for the worse how some people play. They took away the ability to set one's difficulty deliberately when playing in over and under leveled areas.

To be certain, there are positive aspects, but I do wish they had spent more time mitigating the game play that apparently does not interest them.

You do understand that if you want to craft gears for your alt, instead of farming mats with your main now all you have to do is farmings mats with your alt, which is pretty much the same thing?

hmsdragonfly · October 2016

lordrichter wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

One Tamriel is a boon to existing players. Best thing they ever did.

New accounts... not quite the same boon. For new accounts, the best thing about One Tamriel is zone sets, but getting to those places might be a challenge, and figuring out what set you want, and where to find it, is not easy. New players are more likely to just hang around where the started and run the game like before.

I wish I had One Tamriel while leveling my 1st char. Because half way trough each zone everything became boring, because killing stuff and doing quests awarded no or very low XP. I also would have liked to have no veteran ranks, as I had to earn those too - the vet ranks were the snag that made me put of leveling my first 3 alts, which I did after DB when they were eliminated. With the vet ranks I was basically struggling to get enough points to spec my skills, as that char also became an universal crafter. Having those 16 points earlier would have been much better. On top of that, there were very few dropped sets, and those were underleveled by the time you got them, so pretty useless. So, being completely honest new players have it much easier today than it was 1-2 years ago. And there are some old players with a spiteful attitude as if plowing trough huge vet rank grind and boring alliance areas before that was a virtue.

The reason that One Tamriel can be a boon to existing players is that many of us did not level our first characters like you. Rather than hanging around for little or no XP, we moved on and hit the next zone, leaving stuff undone. Champion Points and made it much easier to outlevel the content.

One Tamriel robs the new player of one thing, and this was plainly obvious when I was on PS4 this morning. Once killing mobs is mastered, the world is not a threat. On PS4, which is not yet at One Tamriel, I found myself falling into One Tamriel habits and had to relearn that the world is a dangerous place.

Sadly, the worst One Tamriel threat to a character appears to be leveling.

I can say that this update brings joy to TES fans, or at least Oblivion and Skyrim fans, because they play the game for immersion, while gamers who play just to force level up and do not care anything about the world, the immersion and so on might find being "cheated". I am here to remind you that you guys are not the majority here. What's the point of playing when the only thing you want to do is seeing your XP bar glows? You may want to switch to The Division, that game is what you need, the only thing you need to do is shooting things and your XP bar glows.
Before the update, I couldn't do the PvP, join the DB or even do group dungeons, cuz if I did, my char would be overlvled for pretty much everything and I had to skip a lot of quests. Fighting in overlvled zone was boring, i could even solo world bosses easily. Now I can do what I want whenever I want, then go back doing sidequests. It's so immersive now. I fail to see how people can complain about he update, sure, the scaling needs more works to be perfect, but that can be tweaked in the future, the main principle of the update is the best thing ever happened to ESO.

Elsonso · October 2016

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

Sardath wrote: »

I really don't understand how people can complain this much on a feature that improves the game to many and takes literally nothing from you.

Well, the word "literally" aside, they took away some of the way people were playing the game. They changed how crafting and harvesting worked, which changed for the worse how some people play. They took away the ability to set one's difficulty deliberately when playing in over and under leveled areas.

To be certain, there are positive aspects, but I do wish they had spent more time mitigating the game play that apparently does not interest them.

You do understand that if you want to craft gears for your alt, instead of farming mats with your main now all you have to do is farmings mats with your alt, which is pretty much the same thing?

You do understand that I am not the only person who is playing the game, right? I am not always crafting for an ALT.

You do understand that some of these other people playing the game do not like to farm, and would prefer to buy gear or mats, and that people used to be able to farm and sell mats for any level of crafting, prior to One Tamriel?

Now that One Tamriel is out, I have to say I spend a lot less time providing other players with materials. I figure that they can go tromp around Tamriel and get these materials, even if they don't want to do that. This is what ZOS wants, and what ZOS felt was fine to remove from the game, and that I did not need to be doing that.

In the words of Kai... "Sind da weitere Optionen nötig? Ich sehe im Moment nicht, warum man zB gezielt Spinnenseide sammeln will, wenn sie weder zur Stufe noch zum Skill passt."

Elsonso · October 2016

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

I can say that this update brings joy to TES fans, or at least Oblivion and Skyrim fans, because they play the game for immersion, while gamers who play just to force level up and do not care anything about the world, the immersion and so on might find being "cheated". I am here to remind you that you guys are not the majority here.

That is true. Not everyone plays ESO because it is an Elder Scrolls game. One of the reasons that I like Elder Scrolls games is that there is a feeling of progression. There are places I can go that are more challenging, but as my character gets better, I can go to those places and face those monsters. I remember the troll on the path to High Hrothgar, and the one just down the river from Ivarstead. Those beasts could kill my lowly character that was just off the prisoner cart. That is what I want in One Tamriel. I want to have to run from these guys because I am not yet worthy to kill them.

But, yes, not everyone wants that. I do recognize this.

Hallothiel · October 2016

@lordrichter

See this is what is confusing me. Admittedly I have only played a bit of Oblivion (the skill trees were over-complicated and annoying) but lots & lots if Skyrim, but I am right in thinking that although you COULD go anywhere, there were places that you would just die - until you were a higher level. I played recently on a lower level old character and I was slaughtered by a dragon. No hope of killing it.

So how is 'Go anywhere but no levels' more Elder Scrolls?!

Tomg999 · October 2016

I've been whining about this since it was announced. So stupid imho.

Now after playing it, I realize it's upside-down. Levels 1-10 are the hardest part of the game.
Once you get going, it's all the same. And my 160 chars have the easiest time of all.

I know, I know, there are things you can do. My new alt plays with no shirt or pauldrons (he looks cool tho) and only ~ 1/2 his CP.
But it was so much cooler when the difficulty was an inherent part of where you were in the open world.

Elsonso · October 2016

Hallothiel wrote: »

@lordrichter

See this is what is confusing me. Admittedly I have only played a bit of Oblivion (the skill trees were over-complicated and annoying) but lots & lots if Skyrim, but I am right in thinking that although you COULD go anywhere, there were places that you would just die - until you were a higher level. I played recently on a lower level old character and I was slaughtered by a dragon. No hope of killing it.

So how is 'Go anywhere but no levels' more Elder Scrolls?!

The "go anywhere" is very Elder Scrolls. To me, exploration is an integral part of Elder Scrolls.

Tamriel Unlimited and the original ESO followed more of an MMO path with rigid sequential zones organized by level. You could go anywhere, within the Alliance, but were not really effective outside of a range of about 10 levels surrounding the current character level. This is not very Elder Scrolls, particularly in the sense of the Alliance restrictions.

The "no levels" is short hand for simply saying that when you go there, the monsters are the same level, and is a bit more mixed. This is a departure from the typical MMO, which is not a bad thing, and what One Tamriel has done is make the world pretty much uniform, except for the more advanced dungeons and world bosses. That is very "Oblivion", with a nod to the fact that the character scales to the world, not the other way around. However, I don't consider it to be optimal Elder Scrolls.

In this respect, One Tamriel is the spiritual successor to Oblivion, with a nod to Skyrim, but Skyrim was the better of the two, and ESO falls somewhere in the middle. What ESO is missing, to me, is a sense of variable danger. If the world is too easy under One Tamriel, it is going to be easy everywhere. If the world is too hard, it is too hard everywhere. That is not very good Elder Scrolls.

That is how 'Go anywhere but no levels' more Elder Scrolls than what we had before.

Hallothiel · October 2016

@lordrichter

Sorry if not clear that my question was kinda rhetorical as I do agree with you - I like the idea of being able to go anywhere BUT I also like the idea that doing so could be dangerous. I wish there had been a better way of opening up the world, one that kept that sense of danger.....

daedalusAI · October 2016

The biggest con of such a scaling content is there is literally 0 sense of progression: everything including yourself is scaled to 160cp which means a lvl 1 toon is running around with like 16k health and does 2k+ heavy attacks.

The only "progression" I see is my exp bar being filled, getting skill points and leveling my skills: with my lvl 28 NB I can go back to starting areas and it'll be as difficult as questing in my currently 3rd zone.

Which begs the question why the "getting exp" part is still present in such a scaled system in which it has no place anymore : if everything is scaled to 160cp why not scale the level to 50 and granting every stat point and skyhard too?

That way you'd avoid creating this illusion as if leveling would matter: you only chase after a few stat and skill points - and that's all there is from a leveling view point compared to a "real" leveling progression in other games.

Just imagine a rpg like witcher 3 where leveling and progression is useless because everything is scaled to a certain level: you would question the sanity of such programmers.

Hluill · October 2016

I have played MMOs that scale well... Come to think of it, in those MMOs things are eyeroll easy or annoyingly hard...

What's frustrating me with One Tamerial is that my powerful character, that has (had) an effective stamina and critical set up keeps getting weaker every ten champion points, even with new gear.

I feel like I wasted hours, trolling guild traders to find updated jewelry to get another two-hundred points on damage and a point on critical. Ten champion points later I am back where I was. My champion is bleeding power with every advance. I am now stacking stamina.

What's really irritating about this is that I am not a min-maxer, or wasn't, but I have become one just to continue to enjoy aspects of this game.

hmsdragonfly · October 2016

lordrichter wrote: »

You do understand that I am not the only person who is playing the game, right? I am not always crafting for an ALT.

So? If you craft for someone else, they will have to provide mats for you anyway. What's the difference?

lordrichter wrote: »

You do understand that some of these other people playing the game do not like to farm, and would prefer to buy gear or mats, and that people used to be able to farm and sell mats for any level of crafting, prior to One Tamriel?

If they do not want to farm mats, they will have to buy them anyway, the only difference is now they buy from others, not from you anymore.

lordrichter wrote: »

Now that One Tamriel is out, I have to say I spend a lot less time providing other players with materials. I figure that they can go tromp around Tamriel and get these materials, even if they don't want to do that. This is what ZOS wants, and what ZOS felt was fine to remove from the game, and that I did not need to be doing that.

Not you, but other people can still provide them mats. It's not like no one sells mats anymore.

I see your issue here. The only issue you have is that now you can't sell a variety of mats anymore. This is just nitpicking compared to all the good things the update brings. Furthermore, this can be tweaked. Make another thread about it, and make a poll to see if people prefer scaling mats or not. Keep everything else. One Tamriel is a perfectly right step in the right direction, further tweaking can be made to polish the game, but the main principle of the update is absolutely great. I have seen no proper argument against that.

hmsdragonfly · October 2016

lordrichter wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

I can say that this update brings joy to TES fans, or at least Oblivion and Skyrim fans, because they play the game for immersion, while gamers who play just to force level up and do not care anything about the world, the immersion and so on might find being "cheated". I am here to remind you that you guys are not the majority here.

That is true. Not everyone plays ESO because it is an Elder Scrolls game. One of the reasons that I like Elder Scrolls games is that there is a feeling of progression. There are places I can go that are more challenging, but as my character gets better, I can go to those places and face those monsters. I remember the troll on the path to High Hrothgar, and the one just down the river from Ivarstead. Those beasts could kill my lowly character that was just off the prisoner cart. That is what I want in One Tamriel. I want to have to run from these guys because I am not yet worthy to kill them.

But, yes, not everyone wants that. I do recognize this.

As I remember, in Skyrim you can't even solo a giant even when you are level 60 and have beaten Alduin. Unless you are a stealth archer. LOL. Stealth archer solves everything. They are just tough creatures overall. As you bring up Skyrim, creatures in Skyrim also level up with you, so if you can't find "a feeling of progression" here in ESO, how can you find "a feeling of progression" in Skyrim?

I get it some people prefer the locked zones like in Morrowind, but since Oblivion and Skyrim, it's pretty clear that most people are fine with the scaling difficulty. There's no reason to stick with low lvl zone when because there's no challenge. A game should always challenge you to be fun. Else it will be boring. It's the reason why literally no one came back to low leveled zone except for the one with Trial. They became dead zones, people went there to do quests then left, it's a waste of potential. Now every zone feels alive.

Hallothiel · October 2016

@hmsdragonfly

Not all crafters actually sell their mats - some craft for free / donations, especially for guild mates.

And I do like a challenge. But not sure battle scaling in this way is going to really be one.

But can't really tell as yet as am still waiting for the damn thing to download....

gel214thb14_ESO · October 2016

Hluill wrote: »

I have played MMOs that scale well... Come to think of it, in those MMOs things are eyeroll easy or annoyingly hard...

What's frustrating me with One Tamerial is that my powerful character, that has (had) an effective stamina and critical set up keeps getting weaker every ten champion points, even with new gear.

You know I've mentioned this earlier in the thread, and people have told me I am exaggerating. They say that equipment does not affect your character that much, but then say that it's important and the Battle Levelling system takes equipment into account. It's either one or the other.

It seems the reality is that no one really knows how the scaling in this game works. What I have noticed is that people who seem to have more than 160 Champion Points generally dispatch enemies extremely quickly in the game.

I've said again that we need to get some sort of feedback from the developers about what we as players should be doing now, how we should build our characters and what is important for character progression.

daedalusAI · October 2016

gel214thb14_ESO wrote: »

Hluill wrote: »

I have played MMOs that scale well... Come to think of it, in those MMOs things are eyeroll easy or annoyingly hard...

What's frustrating me with One Tamerial is that my powerful character, that has (had) an effective stamina and critical set up keeps getting weaker every ten champion points, even with new gear.

You know I've mentioned this earlier in the thread, and people have told me I am exaggerating. They say that equipment does not affect your character that much, but then say that it's important and the Battle Levelling system takes equipment into account. It's either one or the other.

It seems the reality is that no one really knows how the scaling in this game works. What I have noticed is that people who seem to have more than 160 Champion Points generally dispatch enemies extremely quickly in the game.

I've said again that we need to get some sort of feedback from the developers about what we as players should be doing now, how we should build our characters and what is important for character progression.

From my limited view on the game only having my lvl 28 nightblade: I've seen plenty of 200cp+ people face-rolling through groups of enemies while I have to invest a little bit of time for 1 enemy and almost need a strategy for 3+ enemies because I refuse to run around with a restoration staff.

If you look at it from that perspective: if you got more than 160cp which is the current ceiling for the scaling every point that you have to go above that enables you to ignore the scaling - which in turn begs the question why everyone <= 160cp is subjected to this feeling of "no progression" due to the scaling and everyone with >160cp has "progression" because they can out-scale the fixed scaling of 160cp and therefore their character feels as powerful as he should.

Elsonso · October 2016

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

I see your issue here.

Actually, doesn't sound like you do. The root of my issue is that crafting is out of sync with the rest of the game, and all they did for One Tamriel is remove part of the crafting game play. Crafting needs to be fixed, and when they do that, they can restore that game play.

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

As I remember, in Skyrim you can't even solo a giant even when you are level 60 and have beaten Alduin. Unless you are a stealth archer. LOL. Stealth archer solves everything. They are just tough creatures overall. As you bring up Skyrim, creatures in Skyrim also level up with you, so if you can't find "a feeling of progression" here in ESO, how can you find "a feeling of progression" in Skyrim?

You aren't supposed to kill the giants easily.

The feeling of progression has to do wiith the ability to return to a place of failure when stronger. The first time you encounter The Troll on the way to High Hrothgar, for example. Yes, you can stay there until you beat him. You likely did not beat him the first time. Alternately you can go around, and come back later, when you can beat him. Skyrim does this better than ESO because the scaling does not attempt to make sure that you are always matched with The Troll.

As for Morrowind, you noticed that I did not mention it, but I am glad you did. Morrowind is where ESO came from, prior to the scaled DLC zones. Not what I am suggesting.

gel214thb14_ESO · October 2016

daedalusAI wrote: »

I have played MMOs that scale well... Come to think of it, in those MMOs things are eyeroll easy or annoyingly hard...

What's frustrating me with One Tamerial is that my powerful character, that has (had) an effective stamina and critical set up keeps getting weaker every ten champion points, even with new gear.

If you look at it from that perspective: if you got more than 160cp which is the current ceiling for the scaling every point that you have to go above that enables you to ignore the scaling - which in turn begs the question why everyone <= 160cp is subjected to this feeling of "no progression" due to the scaling and everyone with >160cp has "progression" because they can out-scale the fixed scaling of 160cp and therefore their character feels as powerful as he should.[/quote]

I agree lol! You DO need a "strategy" to deal with 3 mobs lol . I just hit 41 and I was thinking the same thing, that this isn't getting easier ^_^

It's a heck of a time to need to reach level 161 before you start to feel powerful and accomplished, though.

Doctordarkspawn · October 2016

It killed this game but I dont think I'm saying that in the way most are.

Dungeons have become a hell where I must be eliteist because most dont have the DPS to finish them anymore. It's become idiotic.

This game suffers from the Devs doing things without realizing the consequences of their actions. First softcaps, now scaling, now the dungeon buffs. They are out of touch with their own game and the wants of the playerbase at large.

Milicent · October 2016

It feels more "TES" now, I just love that.

And also, I like the fact that now it actually takes time to kill a mob, our characters aren't like the other TES' super heroes characters that basically can one shot everything. Sounds silly but it's more realistic now.

Destyran · October 2016

Why its about to make the game for me. I do all the quests for tge 50 skill points and you are 531 before you even finish your last zone. You know how boring that is?

Vaoh · October 2016

One Tamriel = Fantastic PvE patch! Absolutely love it.

PvP is a despicable mess though