BiS Gear Sets for 1T [Community Project]

leepalmer95 · October 2016

Pvp Mag dk -

for a solo/very small group build 5x burning spell weave, 5x lich, 2x skoria
For a more tanky group s&b build 2x grothdar, 5x Tavas, 5x Spell weave.

Pvp mag nb Desto/resto 2x infernal, 5x necro, 3x willpower, Msa weps + master staff.

Pvp mag nb Dw/resto, 2x infernal, 5x necro, 5x lich or spinners.

Pvp Mag sorc, 2x infernal, 5x spinners, 5x lich.

dpencil · October 2016

OP updated with a Mag Sorc Maelstrom setup. This is just from my own theory crafting, so I will happily be proven wrong. Assuming you don't need the extra health provided by Twice Born Star, and you're not getting all the trials buffs, I think Julianos out-performs it. Scathing Mage requires direct attacks, so doesn't fit as well on a primarily dot (lightning heavy) build, but could be slightly better if going full Force Pulse spam. Around 50% uptime on the Scathing Mage proc is pretty close to an average 300 spell damage increase.

Infernal Guardian outperforms Ilambris because of constant shielding. It's about 30k damage if all three mortars crit and hit the target. The targets furthest away from you are also often stationary casters.

Elegant is mainly for bosses. Save up ulti during early rounds, switch to dual weild back bar where Overload is and nuke 'em.

Asayre · October 2016

@Alcast

I did a full calculation a while back but by coincidence @DavidTheNomad posted a calculation demonstrating the difference between Mother's Sorrow and TBS

Next big question for you: Sorrow vs TBS.
I know you have addressed this and I come up with a metric similar to your answer, but was curious if you could review my math.

Alcast is currently running Sorrow in place of TBS as his main 5pc and is pulling an impressive 50K+ DPS on magplar.

**Assuming raid buffs. I tested elfborn at multiple jump points and one would need to reach the jump point @68 based on the below to change my findings.

Crit (wearing 5pc aether, 5pc tbs, 2 grothdarr) = .1 (base) + .03 (minor) + .1 (major) + .1 (prodigy) + .12 (precision) + .1678 (divine thief) + .0628 (aether) = 68.1% Crit

Modifer (no horn, then with 100% uptime to analyze theoretical endpoints) = .5 (base) + .1 (aedric) + .12 (minor) + .0753 (elfborn) + .183 (divine shadow) = 97.8% Modifier with no horn or 127.2% with horn.

Expected damage increase at these points would be 66.6% and 86.6% respectively.

Crit (5 sorrow, 5 aether, 2 grothdarr) = 81.8%
Modifier = 79.5% (hornless) or 103.4 (perfect horns)

Damage multiplier at these points would only reach 65.1% and 84.6%

**Alcast is running (I believe) WP swords. I went ahead and swapped them for double aether swords as I find the extra half set bonus to be naturally superior.

As an additional note, the threshold between TBS and Sorrow is independent of Major Force uptime (proof in spoiler below).

This is not strictly necessary but to demonstrate the last statement consider the critical factor for TBS and Sorrow. Critical factor is just my term for the product of critical chance and critical modifier (I couldn’t think of a better name)

Critical Factor for TBS

C_TBS is critical chance wearing 5pc aether, 5pc tbs, 2 grothdarr which is 68.1% as you calculated. M_U is Major Force uptime. M_Base is the critical modifier from everything except Shadow and Elfborn which is 0.72 in your example. M_Elf is critical modifier from Elfborn. M_Shadow is critical modifier from Shadow mundus.

Critical Factor for Sorrow

C_Sorrow^+ is the additional critical chance from using Sorrow over TBS which is 0.138.

Then the threshold when critical factor of TBS is equal to the critical factor of Sorrow is

dpencil · October 2016

Thanks for posting @Asayre!

I have updated to OP to reflect Asayre's input in the "General Thoughts" section.

Asayre, would it be possible for you to do a side-by-side comparison of the main DPS sets so that we could see what the actual percent difference between them is? Like, assuming all things being equal, how far apart are TBS, Scathing Mage, Julianos, Mother's Sorrow, and Burning Spell Weave from each other in terms of raw DPS potential? When I use the UESP Build Editor it makes me think that Julianos actually performs better, at least in solo or small group content.

EDIT: For example, this is with 100 Elemental Expert, 25 Spell Erosion, 46 Elfborn. All skills and other items remain unchanged between builds.
JULIANOS: Magicka 41812, Spell Damage 3041, Spell Crit 71.3%, Crit Damage 64.5%, Spell Mitigation 100%. Effective Spell Power = 10254
TWICE-BORN: Magicka 41812, Spell Damage 2664, Spell Crit 65.1%, Crit Damage 82.8%, Spell Mitigation 100%. Effective Spell Power = 10226
(In both cases the only buffs applied are Major Breach and Major Sorcery)

With all Trials buffs up:
JULIANOS: Magicka 45004, Spell Damage 3500, Spell Crit 74.3%, Crit Damage 106.5%, Spell Mitigation 100%. Effective Spell Power = 13950
TWICE-BORN: Magicka 45004, Spell Damage 3041, Spell Crit 68.1%, Crit Damage 124.8%, Spell Mitigation 100%. Effective Spell Power = 13674

itscompton · October 2016

Right now on PS4 for PvP my Magplar uses 5/4x Transmutation (swords+jewelry front bar and Destro back) + 5x clever alchemist + 2 skoria. All Impen and 6 heavy, 1 light. Gives me good overall resist, insane crit resist, great healing and over 4k SD in 15 second bursts to quickly finish off all but other tanky builds.

When 1Tam drops I plan on farming Burning Spellweave to replace either Transmutation or Alchemist. I'll try replacing Transmutation first so I'll be able to top 4600 SD with 36k magic, which should allow mw to burst down even tank builds hopefully. If I either suffer from lack of regen or seem too squishy without the buff to crit resist then I'll replace Alchemist since Burning will give me just about equal SD with more up time on the damage buff. If that seems too squishy because of switching to light armor v the heavy I wear now then I'll go back to my current setup.

Alcast · October 2016

Asayre wrote: »

@Alcast

I did a full calculation a while back but by coincidence @DavidTheNomad posted a calculation demonstrating the difference between Mother's Sorrow and TBS

Next big question for you: Sorrow vs TBS.
I know you have addressed this and I come up with a metric similar to your answer, but was curious if you could review my math.

Alcast is currently running Sorrow in place of TBS as his main 5pc and is pulling an impressive 50K+ DPS on magplar.

**Assuming raid buffs. I tested elfborn at multiple jump points and one would need to reach the jump point @68 based on the below to change my findings.

Crit (wearing 5pc aether, 5pc tbs, 2 grothdarr) = .1 (base) + .03 (minor) + .1 (major) + .1 (prodigy) + .12 (precision) + .1678 (divine thief) + .0628 (aether) = 68.1% Crit

Modifer (no horn, then with 100% uptime to analyze theoretical endpoints) = .5 (base) + .1 (aedric) + .12 (minor) + .0753 (elfborn) + .183 (divine shadow) = 97.8% Modifier with no horn or 127.2% with horn.

Expected damage increase at these points would be 66.6% and 86.6% respectively.

Crit (5 sorrow, 5 aether, 2 grothdarr) = 81.8%
Modifier = 79.5% (hornless) or 103.4 (perfect horns)

Damage multiplier at these points would only reach 65.1% and 84.6%

**Alcast is running (I believe) WP swords. I went ahead and swapped them for double aether swords as I find the extra half set bonus to be naturally superior.

As an additional note, the threshold between TBS and Sorrow is independent of Major Force uptime (proof in spoiler below).
This is not strictly necessary but to demonstrate the last statement consider the critical factor for TBS and Sorrow. Critical factor is just my term for the product of critical chance and critical modifier (I couldn’t think of a better name)

Critical Factor for TBS

C_TBS is critical chance wearing 5pc aether, 5pc tbs, 2 grothdarr which is 68.1% as you calculated. M_U is Major Force uptime. M_Base is the critical modifier from everything except Shadow and Elfborn which is 0.72 in your example. M_Elf is critical modifier from Elfborn. M_Shadow is critical modifier from Shadow mundus.

Critical Factor for Sorrow

C_Sorrow^+ is the additional critical chance from using Sorrow over TBS which is 0.138.

Then the threshold when critical factor of TBS is equal to the critical factor of Sorrow is

So we basically have a 100% Horn uptime and about a 40% Major Forceuptime together with a 70% Minor Force Uptime.

Thanks for explaining.

What do you think about burning spellweave (if we take a 50% uptime into consideration)?
My Setup atm is:
5x Sorrow, 2x Grothgarr, 3x Infallible, 2x Willpower

I still have to test:
5x Burning Spellweave, 2x Grotgharr, 3x Infallible, 3x Willpower

Blakeabutler_Blasius · October 2016

@Asayre Does the difference between Mother's Sorrow and TBS change to favor Mother's Sorrow at any point with decreased War Horn up time?

Alcast · October 2016

@Asayre @IzakiBrotheSs

in this video here I am running Mothers Sorrow, I could not achiev the same numbers with TBS. I tried TBS plus i had better conditions (no swapping) and still couldnt achiev close to those numbers.

https://youtu.be/0BxGa2TswZo

Mojmir · October 2016

so soulshine for magicka Templar pve wouldn't be bis? And sun for magicka dk?

Nifty2g · October 2016

Alcast wrote: »

@Asayre @IzakiBrotheSs

in this video here I am running Mothers Sorrow, I could not achiev the same numbers with TBS. I tried TBS plus i had better conditions (no swapping) and still couldnt achiev close to those numbers.

https://youtu.be/0BxGa2TswZo

@Alcast
Major Force is multiplicative with CHD which is why it is so strong with Twice Born Star because it works so well with Shadow and then bring in Thief as well because percentage based mundus stones are incredibly strong with divine traits.
Strip away Major Force and you are left with a not so strong set on a stand alone (for magicka) which is why sometimes you will hear people say Julianos or so forth is better than TBS.

But in this video at the end you had 72% warhorn so thats around ~20% Major Force, which isn't so good but thats only because the group is so split up here, so maybe Sorrow is better than Julianos, I dont know the answer on that

In this video you have almost 50% Major Force, which would be absolutely amazing for TBS

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQLMNJfOBkY

I haven't had much time to come up with ideas on magicka templar, but I do think there is a build out there with Sorrow, what does your character sheet look like with it, critical wise, cause I was thinking you could maybe run Shadow mundus stone with Sorrow and see what kind of results you get so you get the huge amp with Major Force

An interesting build you could try out would be 5x Mothers Sorrow + 5x TBS + 2x Grothdarr
I'm dropping Minor Slayer because

code65536 wrote: »

Thank you, @Asayre for the detailed information. I had meant to respond earlier, but it had slipped my mind until you mentioned it again this morning.

This additive stacking is very counter-intuitive--I had expected the Minor Slayer would be a buff applied separately and after all others, and I had never considered the possibility that it would work like this, and as a result, I hadn't tested or even considered the execution scenario originally.

I just finished running a couple of quick tests to confirm all this:

Minor Slayer Inactive, Pre-Execute: 2353, 4093 crit
Minor Slayer Inactive, Execute: 9410, 16374 crit
Minor Slayer Active, Pre-Execute: 2470, 4297 crit
Minor Slayer Active, Execute: 9527, 16578 crit

For the pre-execute damage, the Minor Slayer buff of 5% applies as one would expect. Once in the execute range, Minor Slayer is providing only a 1.25% buff.

Instead of execute damage with Minor Slayer being 2353*4*1.05 = 2353*4.20 = 9882, we instead have 2353*4.05 = 9529 (observed 9527).

And, yes, in light of this, Minor Slayer is not ideal for builds that do substantial amounts of execute damage, like magicka Templars.

Also, I would like to ask @Wrobel if the way this is currently being calculated is actually intended. Intuitively, from the language of the tooltip, one would expect Minor Slayer to be applied independently, after all the other damage has been calculated (thus applied multiplicatively).

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Alcast · October 2016

@Nifty2g I will try Burning Spellweave on magplar also.

Ye that Minor Slayer thingy kinda bugs me, but it only affects Jbeam nad Puncturing sweeps I guess? Also if we would get that combo we would have to drop gold jewelry.

Nifty2g · October 2016

Alcast wrote: »

@Nifty2g I will try Burning Spellweave on magplar also.

Ye that Minor Slayer thingy kinda bugs me, but it only affects Jbeam nad Puncturing sweeps I guess? Also if we would get that combo we would have to drop gold jewelry.

@Alcast
Dropping gold jewelrry would be fine its only 90 magicka you are losing and a little bit cause of your gear being purple but gold swords would up it a little bit

Ive been farming for mothers sorrow swords all day and got nothing, though I am fairly sure they drop at the altar boss if you want to get some farming on.
Templar biggest increase is the beam, so you may as well up a lot if you have to lower the rest marginally

After chatting with @Asayre he had informed me 5x TBS 5x Infal 2x Grothdarr may be the bis but the difference between sorrow and infal is 0.5%, and Sorrow would take the lead in execute phase cause of minor slayer sucking

Personally I didn't like burning spell weave, i only got a ~60% uptime, I don't see the big fuss about that set

pls let me know results if you try this set up out 5x tbs 5x sorrow 2x grothdarr

altemriel · October 2016

dpencil wrote: »

DISCLAIMER: MOST OF THE CONTENT IN ESO DOES NOT REQUIRE BEST IN SLOT GEAR, AND EVEN SOME VERY DIFFICULT CONTENT CAN BE ACCOMPLISHED WITHOUT A FULLY OPTIMIZED SETUP. THERE ARE MANY "GOOD" SETS AVAILABLE THAT WILL SERVE YOU WELL. FEEL FREE TO USE WHATEVER FEELS ATTRACTIVE TO YOU AND IN MOST CASES YOU'LL BE FINE!

With all the new gear sets available in One Tamriel, many players new and old are trying to figure out which sets will be most beneficial for them. There are some notable build creators such as @Deltia and @Alcast who post in-depth build videos on Youtube that are definitely worth looking into, but what I would like to do in this thread is simply compile community opinions about what gear is generally considered to be BiS (Best in Slot) for all standard classes and play styles. Differences of opinion are welcome! People can use the "agree" button to upvote gear sets that are mentioned. You can also mention sets that you don't consider BiS but are still very good and worth having for certain circumstances. Although other factors like skill choices, traits, and enchantments are important features to a build, I would like to keep this thread strictly focused on the gear sets themselves. My hope is to help people feel more confident about what sets they choose to keep and what they choose to decon. Even if you don't have a DK tank yet, maybe you will want to make one later. Why not know what gear would be good for that now and avoid deconing something you'd wish you still had?

You can submit a single gear set (like Ilambris or Twice-Born Star) or a full gear setup. Please indicate which category you are submitting for. I will update the OP to reflect feedback received. Also, if you are pulling your info from someone else's build, please do give them credit when mentioning it! You can also provide the link to a build page or video if there is one. For myself, I main a PVE Mag Sorc and am totally on the "Mystic" bandwagon from @Alcast. My knowledge of most of the other classes and specs is not large, which is one of the main reasons I'd like this to be a community project. So let me hear from you!

EDIT: Added a Maelstrom category. This gear set will be considered BiS for Solo play, while the DPS, Tank, and Heal categories envision participation in Trials groups. 4-player content could potentially be completed with either type of set.

DRAGONKNIGHT (Stamina)
PVE
---DPS: 2 Kragh + 5 Leviathan or 5 Twice Born Star + 3 Vicious Serpent + Maelstrom Dual Weild + Maelstrom Bow http://alcasthq.com/venom/
---Tank: 2 Bloodspawn + 5 Alkosh or 5 Ebon (2 Body + 3 Jewelry) + 5 Tava's Favor (3 Body + 2 Sword/Shield [both bars]) http://alcasthq.com/catalyst/
---Heal
---Maelstrom
PVP
---DPS: 2 Tremorscale + 5 Black Rose + 5 Draugr (3 Jewelry + Dual Wield) + Any 2H http://alcasthq.com/draugr/
---Tank
---Heal

DRAGONKNIGHT (Magicka)
PVE
---DPS: 2 Grothdarr + 5 Burning Spell Weave (Deltia) or 5 Mothers Sorrow (Alcast) + 3 Infallible Aether + 2 Maelstrom Destros http://deltiasgaming.com/eso-magic-dragonknight-dps-build-2/#end http://alcasthq.com/valakas/
---Tank
---Heal
---Maelstrom
PVP
---DPS
---Tank
---Heal

NIGHTBLADE (Stamina)
PVE
---DPS
---Tank
---Heal
---Maelstrom
PVP
---DPS
---Tank
---Heal

NIGHTBLADE (Magicka)
PVE
---DPS
---Tank
---Heal
---Maelstrom
PVP
---DPS
---Tank
---Heal

SORCERER (Stamina)
PVE
---DPS: 2 Kragh or 2 Stormfist + 5 Leviathan or Twice-Born Star + 3 Vicious Orphidian (alternately, no monster set, 5 Alkosh (2 Body + 3 Jewelry) + Maelstrom Dual Wield + Maelstrom Bow http://alcasthq.com/windwalker/
---Tank
---Heal
---Maelstrom
PVP
---DPS: 2 Tremorscale + 5 Black Rose + 5 Viper's Sting (3 Jewelry + Sword and Shield) + Maelstrom 2H Axe https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9ztdchIbwY
---Tank
---Heal

SORCERER (Magicka)
PVE
---DPS: 2 Ilambris + 5 Twice Born Star + 4 Infallible Aether (3 Jewelry + Destro) + Maelstrom Destro http://alcasthq.com/mystic/
---Tank
---Heal
---Maelstrom: 2 Infernal Guardian + 5 Julianos + 5 Elegant (3 Jewelry + Dual Wield) + Maelstrom Destro
PVP
---DPS: 2 Engine Guardian + 5 Seducer + 3 Willpower + 2 Maelstrom Destro
---Tank
---Heal

TEMPLAR (Stamina)
PVE
---DPS: 2 Kragh + 5 Night Mother's Gaze + 5 Alkosh (3 Jewelry + Dual Wield) + Maelstrom Bow http://alcasthq.com/jabsmania/
---Tank
---Heal
---Maelstrom
PVP
---DPS
---Tank
---Heal

TEMPLAR (Magicka)
PVE
---DPS: 2 Grothdarr + 5 Mother's Sorrow or Twice Born Star + 3 Infallible Aether + 2 Willpower Dual Wield + Maelstrom Destro http://alcasthq.com/beamplar/
---Tank
---Heal
---Maelstrom
PVP
---DPS
---Tank
---Heal

GENERAL THOUGHTS
STAM BUILDS - Velidreth performs better in AOE and mobile play, Kragh performs better in stationary single target play. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4BfDAO5di0
CRIT SETS VS TBS - @Asayre disputes @Alcast in the use of Mother's Sorrow (and by implication Leviathan). You must have at least 66 points in Elfborn to make Mother's Sorrow out-perform TBS, and the cost of so many CP points plus the loss of additional Health and Stamina make TBS seem more optimal.

NBs??

altemriel · October 2016

Mag blade - not updated for 1T - but ok I guess:

(Blob Sky) 5 Necropotence, 5 Clever Alchemist, 3 Willpower:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-yN60RD7nU

(Sypher) 5 Litch (or Magnus or Seducer), 5 Julianos

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrsbZK-EUw0

5 Clever Alchemyst, 5 Vicious Death

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3351820/#Comment_3351820

It is not as easy as it sounds and takes impeccable timing,

Basically they use the folowing,
Clever Alchemist on back bar,
Vicious Death on front bar,

Skills req,
Proxy detonation,
soul Tether,
Sap Essence,
Mage light,

They drink a potion on the clever alchemist bar,
Put down a shadow image,
sneak or lotus fan into the middle of a zerg when the time is right,
proxy detonation and soul tether at the same time,
Sap essence to finish those still alive and shadow image back to their spawn,

NoFlash · October 2016

General Magic build Solo DPS *newbie friendly*
5 julianos, 3 willpower, rest seducer or magnus all divines hardest item is to get enough traits to craft julianos yourself.

psychotic13 · October 2016

There's no such thing as 'BiS' for PvP, different set ups are optimal for different play styles.

Foxic · October 2016

dpencil wrote: »

Thanks for posting @Asayre!

I have updated to OP to reflect Asayre's input in the "General Thoughts" section.

Asayre, would it be possible for you to do a side-by-side comparison of the main DPS sets so that we could see what the actual percent difference between them is? Like, assuming all things being equal, how far apart are TBS, Scathing Mage, Julianos, Mother's Sorrow, and Burning Spell Weave from each other in terms of raw DPS potential? When I use the UESP Build Editor it makes me think that Julianos actually performs better, at least in solo or small group content.

EDIT: For example, this is with 100 Elemental Expert, 25 Spell Erosion, 46 Elfborn. All skills and other items remain unchanged between builds.
JULIANOS: Magicka 41812, Spell Damage 3041, Spell Crit 71.3%, Crit Damage 64.5%, Spell Mitigation 100%. Effective Spell Power = 10254
TWICE-BORN: Magicka 41812, Spell Damage 2664, Spell Crit 65.1%, Crit Damage 82.8%, Spell Mitigation 100%. Effective Spell Power = 10226
(In both cases the only buffs applied are Major Breach and Major Sorcery)

With all Trials buffs up:
JULIANOS: Magicka 45004, Spell Damage 3500, Spell Crit 74.3%, Crit Damage 106.5%, Spell Mitigation 100%. Effective Spell Power = 13950
TWICE-BORN: Magicka 45004, Spell Damage 3041, Spell Crit 68.1%, Crit Damage 124.8%, Spell Mitigation 100%. Effective Spell Power = 13674

If you only have major breach applied, why do you have spell mitigation listed at 100%

Mojmir · October 2016

no NB magicka pve? Or is scathing still most optimal?

dpencil · October 2016

@TotallyNotVos UESP applies the 10% spell mitigation for destruction staff skills to the equation. It doesn't really make a difference for the sake of comparison. With 100 (base) + 4884 (light 5 piece bonus) + 5180 (sharpened) + 5280 (major breach) = 15384 penetration. Assuming the boss has 18200, that leaves 2816. I had 1492 (25 points) from CP which got me within 10% and the destro passive did the rest.

Asayre · October 2016

dpencil wrote: »

Asayre, would it be possible for you to do a side-by-side comparison of the main DPS sets so that we could see what the actual percent difference between them is? Like, assuming all things being equal, how far apart are TBS, Scathing Mage, Julianos, Mother's Sorrow, and Burning Spell Weave from each other in terms of raw DPS potential? When I use the UESP Build Editor it makes me think that Julianos actually performs better, at least in solo or small group content.

EDIT: For example, this is with 100 Elemental Expert, 25 Spell Erosion, 46 Elfborn. All skills and other items remain unchanged between builds.
JULIANOS: Magicka 41812, Spell Damage 3041, Spell Crit 71.3%, Crit Damage 64.5%, Spell Mitigation 100%. Effective Spell Power = 10254
TWICE-BORN: Magicka 41812, Spell Damage 2664, Spell Crit 65.1%, Crit Damage 82.8%, Spell Mitigation 100%. Effective Spell Power = 10226
(In both cases the only buffs applied are Major Breach and Major Sorcery)

With all Trials buffs up:
JULIANOS: Magicka 45004, Spell Damage 3500, Spell Crit 74.3%, Crit Damage 106.5%, Spell Mitigation 100%. Effective Spell Power = 13950
TWICE-BORN: Magicka 45004, Spell Damage 3041, Spell Crit 68.1%, Crit Damage 124.8%, Spell Mitigation 100%. Effective Spell Power = 13674

A side by side comparison is a bit tricky because the difference between the sets are quite small and depends on your class and skills slotted as well as other sets you have equipped. The safest way is to enumerate all possible sets and calculate ability metrics (or effective spell power as you call it below) for all of them. The difference you observe for Julianos and Twice-Born Star without Trials buff is similar to what I initially calculated in the Imperial City patch. I found, like you, that for abilities, Julianos is better than Twice-Born Star. But note that the difference is on the order of 0.2% which is unlikely to be observed in any parse.

I'm a bit confused by your comparison of Julianos and Twice-Born Star with Trials buff for 2 reasons
1. Spell Damage of Twice-Born Star seems a bit too low and is surprisingly similar to Spell damage of Julianos without Trials buff. It feels like it could be a typo.
2. Your critical damage calculation is a bit suspicious since for both sets you are increasing it by 42% presumably from Major and Minor Force. However, while Minor Force is additive, Major Force is multiplicative. So for Twice-Born Star with Trials buff I would expect a critical damage of 123.2.

1.3 [Major Force] * (82.8 [Critical Damage without Trials buff] + 12 [Minor Force]) = 123.2

As an aside, maybe it's not the best idea to call is Effective Spell Power when you are pretty much chucking every single factor for damage calculation into it.

Alcast wrote: »

What do you think about burning spellweave (if we take a 50% uptime into consideration)?
My Setup atm is:
5x Sorrow, 2x Grothgarr, 3x Infallible, 2x Willpower

I still have to test:
5x Burning Spellweave, 2x Grotgharr, 3x Infallible, 3x Willpower

At 50% burning spellweave uptime, the 5 piece will be comparable to Julianos so I won't expect a significant difference. Also I worry a bit that the 50% uptime is not a homogenous uptime. I expect uptime to drop during your Radiant phase which may have more worrying consequences.

Alcast wrote: »

@Asayre @IzakiBrotheSs

in this video here I am running Mothers Sorrow, I could not achiev the same numbers with TBS. I tried TBS plus i had better conditions (no swapping) and still couldnt achiev close to those numbers.

https://youtu.be/0BxGa2TswZo

What numbers did you achieve with TBS? How many times did you try this? What is the normal variation in your DPS? What is the minimum DPS difference do you think you can realistic observe?

dpencil wrote: »

@TotallyNotVos UESP applies the 10% spell mitigation for destruction staff skills to the equation. It doesn't really make a difference for the sake of comparison. With 100 (base) + 4884 (light 5 piece bonus) + 5180 (sharpened) + 5280 (major breach) = 15384 penetration. Assuming the boss has 18200, that leaves 2816. I had 1492 (25 points) from CP which got me within 10% and the destro passive did the rest.

It's totally fine to assume 100% spell mitigation and your example achieves this but I just would like to say that the order for mitigation calculation is debuff, percentage penetration then flat penetration.

Remaining Resistance = (Resistance - Debuff ) * ( 1 - Percentage Penetration) - Flat Penetration

Alcast · October 2016

@Asayre to do any kind of reliable test i would have to do this about a 100 times. I ran TBS and Mothers Sorrow about 6 times each through the trial so did my buddy.

We always had slightly higher numbers with mothers sorrow. I mean for example on the last boss it was like a 2-3k DPS difference tops.

Now same thing with burning spellweave, my buddies on DK say they reach higher dps numbers with it, but then I am not sure how much they tested it. Most people ignore the actualy crit vs overall crit done in a fight which *** up the parses.

Lets say we have 60% Spellcrit. It is more commen to have LESS Spellcrit rather than more and most people ignore this checking their dps screenshots.

It is very hard to get a dps screenshot with the actualy crit you have to see any kind of difference in parses plus the uptime of buffs is never really a 100% similar.

The trick with Burning Spellweave
So atm my setup is:
5x Mothers Sorrow
2x Grothgarr
3x Infallible
2x Willpower

Now what Burning spellweave would allow us to do is:
5 Burning spellweave (With a Destro on backbar)
2x Grothgarr
3x Infallible
3x Willpower

So we would basically gain the 3 piece bonus of Willpower plus the Burning Spellweave proc on the backbar which procs most of the times anyway. Now if that actually works, we need to find a good rotation for this to let the set proc on cooldown whhich is probably the most difficult part

Asayre · October 2016

@Alcast

Won't you only be on your Destro bar for like 10-20% of the time? (You can determine the time you spent on your destro bar from Combat Metrics). Do you think you can get a good uptime on Spellweave with such a short time on it?

And with regards to hundreds of testing that is my point. The difference between TBS and Sorrow is on the order of 1% at 50k DPS that difference is about 500 DPS. I don't think that is observable. The standard deviation for parses with similar gear will be greater than that.

Alcast · October 2016

Asayre wrote: »

@Alcast

Won't you only be on your Destro bar for like 10-20% of the time? (You can determine the time you spent on your destro bar from Combat Metrics). Do you think you can get a good uptime on Spellweave with such a short time on it?

And with regards to hundreds of testing that is my point. The difference between TBS and Sorrow is on the order of 1% at 50k DPS that difference is about 500 DPS. I don't think that is observable. The standard deviation for parses with similar gear will be greater than that.

the burning spellweave basically instaprocs, so if you swap to your backbar almost when cooldown is gone you should be able to get a 50-60% uptime

kaithuzar · October 2016

altemriel wrote: »

Mag blade - not updated for 1T - but ok I guess:

(Blob Sky) 5 Necropotence, 5 Clever Alchemist, 3 Willpower:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-yN60RD7nU

(Sypher) 5 Litch (or Magnus or Seducer), 5 Julianos
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrsbZK-EUw0

5 Clever Alchemyst, 5 Vicious Death

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3351820/#Comment_3351820

It is not as easy as it sounds and takes impeccable timing,

Basically they use the folowing,
Clever Alchemist on back bar,
Vicious Death on front bar,

Skills req,
Proxy detonation,
soul Tether,
Sap Essence,
Mage light,

They drink a potion on the clever alchemist bar,
Put down a shadow image,
sneak or lotus fan into the middle of a zerg when the time is right,
proxy detonation and soul tether at the same time,
Sap essence to finish those still alive and shadow image back to their spawn,

I feel like this is old & outdated content.
Magicka nb didn't get much help this patch & is likely one of the weaker players in Cyrodiil. For whatever reason I feel like very few people are even attempting to theory craft for it.

I would like to pose the question to the brains here though. I know it's not best in slot for PVE by any means but I would really like to see the damage numbers for 5x medusa + 5x tbs or 5x juli or 5x alche

I feel like there is a really good combination somewhere there, I'm just not sure which one.

dpencil · October 2016

@Asayre

EDIT: Calculations are incorrect due to an extra integer in the crit multiplier section. Corrected calculations are later in the thread.

It's likely I'm making a mistake somewhere, as community opinion is so strong in favor of TBS (and yes, I read the other thread that was also questioning TBS's dominance), but I have been crunching a bunch of numbers trying to figure out one particular thing: What is the percentage effect of set buffs on an individual skill's damage? What I did to try and get a handle on this for myself was to set a base stat level, modify the one value in play, and then gauge it's effect on the end result. This is meant to mainly reflect solo or small group play, as I am not considering any significant buffs, but even in increasing values, the relationships between buffs stay pretty similar. Also, I am not making any considerations for CP in the first set of equations. You could imagine 100 points in Elemental Expert and 50 in Spell Erosion (to get to 100% mitigation with other mitigating buffs active), but this should be an identical inflation of values across the board and so is irrelevant to what I am checking for. So here's the data. The last number of each line is the percent difference from the base (i.e. how much stronger the set bonus makes the skill).

Base: 40,000 magicka, 2500 spell damage, a skill coefficient of 0.3, base crit chance 0.5, base crit damage 1.5
(((40,000/10.5)+2500)*0.3)*(1+(0.5*1.5))=3312.5
We will think of a Sorcerer casting Blockade of Fire. The final result is the average damage the skill will do.
The effect of a 967 Magicka set bonus: (((40,967/10.5)+2500)*0.3)*(1+(0.5*1.5))=3360.85 (1.459%)
The effect of a 129 Spell Damage set bonus: (((40,000/10.5)+2629)*0.3)*(1+(0.5*1.5))=3380.225 (2.044%)
The effect of a 688 Spell Crit set bonus: (((40,000/10.5)+2500)*0.3)*(1+(0.531*1.5))=3400.52 (2.657%)

I also wanted to see what the raw bonus value for some 5-piece set bonuses were:
Julianos' 299 Spell Damage: (((40,000/10.5)+2799)*0.3)*(1+(0.5*1.5))=3469.5 (4.738%)
Necropotence's 4000 Magicka: (((44,000/10.5)+2500)*0.3)*(1+(0.5*1.5))=3512.5 (6.037%)
Mother's Sorrow 1643 Spell Crit: (((40,000/10.5)+2500)*0.3)*(1+(0.575*1.5))=3525.4 (6.428%)
Twice Born Star's Shadow Mundus: (((40,000/10.5)+2500)*0.3)*(1+(0.5*1.68))=3482.8 (5.142%)

I then took the percent values of all of the bonuses in each set and added them together:
Julianos: 2.657+1.459+2.657+4.738=11.511%
Necropotence: 1.459+1.459+1.459+6.037=10.414%
Mother's Sorrow: 1.459+2.657+2.657+6.428=13.201%
Twice Born Star: (Health)+(Stamina)+1.459+5.142=6.601%

Then I wanted to see if these percentages would be effected by higher crit and crit damage modifies. So I increased the base equation to include +15% crit chance and +15% crit damage (0.65+1.65). First, I redid the equations for the small set buffs.
Base: (((40,000/10.5)+2500)*0.3)*(1+(0.65*1.65))=3922.946 (18.428% stronger than the original Base)
The effect of a 967 Magicka set bonus: (((40,967/10.5)+2500)*0.3)*(1+(0.65*1.65))=3975.4 (1.459%)
The effect of a 129 Spell Damage set bonus: (((40,000/10.5)+2629)*0.3)*(1+(0.65*1.65))=4003.152 (2.044%)
The effect of a 688 Spell Crit set bonus: (((40,000/10.5)+2500)*0.3)*(1+(0.681*1.65))=4019.766 (2.468%) (0.189% loss)

Next, the 5-piece set bonuses at the higher crit and modifier:
Julianos' 299 Spell Damage: (((40,000/10.5)+2799)*0.3)*(1+(0.65*1.65))=4108.849 (4.738%)
Necropotence's 4000 Magicka: (((44,000/10.5)+2500)*0.3)*(1+(0.65*1.65))=4159.803 (6.037%)
Mother's Sorrow 1643 Spell Crit: (((40,000/10.5)+2500)*0.3)*(1+(0.725*1.65))=4157.187 (5.971%)
Twice Born Star's Shadow Mundus: (((40,000/10.5)+2500)*0.3)*(1+(0.65*1.83))=4144.410 (5.645%)

We can see that additive bonuses like Spell Power and Magicka are unchanged when spell crit and magnitude are increased, while Mother's Sorrow looses some potency as TWS grows in potency.
Julianos: 2.468+1.459+2.468+4.738=11.133%
Necropotence: 1.459+1.459+1.459+6.037=10.414%
Mother's Sorrow: 1.459+2.468+2.468+5.971=12.366% (0.835% loss)
Twice Born Star: (Health)+(Stamina)+1.459+5.645=7.104% (0.503% gain)

So now we need to establish the tipping point when TBS actually becomes more potent than Mother's Sorrow.
Assuming TBS + 4pc Infallible Aether + Inner Light, we'd have 61.9% crit chance. If this is basically the highest crit chance we can reach with TBS then the adjustment will come from the impact of further crit damage from both CP and group buffs. Since we already looked at 46 CP points in Elfborn (+15%) and it would be unreasonable to spend much more than that, that really just leaves group buffs. So we could conclude that in a situation without serious group buffs, it would seem that Mother's Sorrow is strongly favored.

Let's consider a best case scenario, keeping our 65% crit chance and damage modifier, and adding +44% crit damage from both Minor and Major Force.
Base: (((40,000/10.5)+2500)*0.3)*(1+0.65*2.09))=4464.303
The effect of a 688 Spell Crit set bonus: (((40,000/10.5)+2500)*0.3)*(1+(0.681*2.09))=4586.941 (2.747%)
Mother's Sorrow 1643 Spell Crit: (((40,000/10.5)+2500)*0.3)*(1+(0.725*2.09))=4761.008 (6.646%)
Twice Born Star's Shadow Mundus: (((40,000/10.5)+2500)*0.3)*(1+(0.65*2.27))=4685.767 (4.960%)

Mother's Sorrow: 1.459+2.747+2.747+6.646=13.599%
Twice Born Star: (Health)+(Stamina)+1.459+4.960=6.419%

Surprisingly, the numbers for Spell Crit and Mother's Sorrow increase their percentage impact, while TBS's impact decreases.

So whatever factor I am missing that would drastically alter the situation, I'm just not seeing it yet.

Asayre · October 2016

@dpencil

There are two ways to define crit damage either as multiplicative damage of the base or additive of the base. You are using both which is causing some problems.

I prefer to define critical modifier as

Damage on crit / Damage on non-crit - 1

This means base critical is 0.5 not 1.5.

In addition you are not calculating magicka and spell damage correctly. Magicka should be multiplied by CP and magicka increasing skills. This should be 1.19 at 561 CP and for a Sorcerer you would expect a Skill multiplier of 1.31 meaning a 967 magicka set bonus will confer 1509 max magicka. Spell damage granted from sets should be increased by 1.25 due to Major and Minor Sorcery thus a 129 spell damage set bonus will give 161 spell damage. I redid the first set of calculations with these in mind. Changes to your calculation are bolded.

Base: 40,000 magicka, 2500 spell damage, a skill coefficient of 0.3, base crit chance 0.5, base crit damage 0.5
(((40,000/10.5)+2500)*0.3)*(1+(0.5*0.5))=2366
We will think of a Sorcerer casting Blockade of Fire. The final result is the average damage the skill will do.
The effect of a 967 Magicka set bonus: (((41509/10.5)+2500)*0.3)*(1+(0.5*0.5))=2420 (2.2%)
The effect of a 129 Spell Damage set bonus: (((40,000/10.5)+2661)*0.3)*(1+(0.5*0.5))=2426 (2.5%)
The effect of a 688 Spell Crit set bonus: (((40,000/10.5)+2500)*0.3)*(1+(0.531*0.5))=2395 (1.2%)

You will observe that there are significant changes depending on your base stats.

dpencil · October 2016

@Asayre Awesome. Thanks for pointing that out. I wasn't considering the addition of the 1 before the multiplication of crit chance and value counting as the base damage and so was thinking I needed 150% for crit damage instead of 50%.

For the Max Magic bonus, 967*1.19*1.31=1507.4534. I'm not sure how you're getting 1509 unless there is some rounding in the multipiers. Also, how many Sorcerer skills are expected to be on the bar to get 1.31? I usually have 3 on my front bar (since Inner Light and Crushing Shock are usually up there).

Asayre · October 2016

@dpencil

Ah yes, I rounded the 1.19 it is actually a bit more. For the 1.31 It is based on 10% from Breton/Altmer, 6% from Undaunted, 8% from Bound Armour, 5% from Inner Light, 2% from Magicka Controller. And you bring up a good point that Spell Damage multiplier is not always 1.25 if you're a sorcerer

dpencil · October 2016

Recalculations after @Asayre provided corrections:

Base: 40,000 magicka, 2500 spell damage, a skill coefficient of 0.3, base crit chance 0.5, base crit damage 0.5
(((40,000/10.5)+2500)*0.3)*(1+(0.5*0.5))=2366
The effect of a 967 Magicka set bonus (967*1.19*1.31=1509): (((41509/10.5)+2500)*0.3)*(1+(0.5*0.5))=2420 (2.2%)
The effect of a 129 Spell Damage set bonus (129*1.25=161): (((40,000/10.5)+2661)*0.3)*(1+(0.5*0.5))=2426 (2.5%)
The effect of a 688 Spell Crit set bonus: (((40,000/10.5)+2500)*0.3)*(1+(0.531*0.5))=2395 (1.2%)

Julianos' 299 Spell Damage (299*1.25=373.75): (((40,000/10.5)+2873.75)*0.3)*(1+(0.5*0.5))=2506.227 (5.926%)
Necropotence's 4000 Magicka (4000*1.19*1.31=6235.6): (((46235.6/10.5)+2500)*0.3)*(1+(0.5*0.5))=2588.77 (9.415%)
Mother's Sorrow 1643 Spell Crit: (((40,000/10.5)+2500)*0.3)*(1+(0.575*0.5))=2437.05 (3%)
Twice Born Star's Shadow Mundus: (((40,000/10.5)+2500)*0.3)*(1+(0.5*0.68))=2536.42 (7.2%)

Percent values of all of the bonuses in each set and added them together:
Julianos: 1.2+2.2+1.2+5.926=10.526%
Necropotence: 2.2+2.2+2.2+9.415=16.015%
Mother's Sorrow: 2.2+1.2+1.2+3=7.6%
Twice Born Star: (Health)+(Stamina)+2.2+7.2=9.4%

Then I wanted to see if these percentages would be effected by higher crit and crit damage modifies. So I increased the base equation to include +15% crit chance and +15% crit damage (0.65+0.65). First, I redid the equations for the small set buffs.
Base: (((40,000/10.5)+2500)*0.3)*(1+(0.65*0.65))=2682.589 (13.38% stronger than the original Base)
The effect of a 967 Magicka set bonus: (((41509/10.5)+2500)*0.3)*(1+(0.65*0.65))=2753.919 (2.659%)
The effect of a 129 Spell Damage set bonus: (((40,000/10.5)+2661)*0.3)*(1+(0.65*0.65))=2761.296 (2.933%)
The effect of a 688 Spell Crit set bonus: (((40,000/10.5)+2500)*0.3)*(1+(0.681*0.65))=2730.73 (1.794%)

Next, the 5-piece set bonuses at the higher crit and modifier:
Julianos' 299 Spell Damage: (((40,000/10.5)+2873.75)*0.3)*(1+(0.65*0.65))=2852.087 (6.318%)
Necropotence's 4000 Magicka: (((46235.6/10.5)+2500)*0.3)*(1+(0.65*0.65))=2946.021 (9.82%)
Mother's Sorrow 1643 Spell Crit: (((40,000/10.5)+2500)*0.3)*(1+(0.725*0.65))=2784.866 (3.812%)
Twice Born Star's Shadow Mundus: (((40,000/10.5)+2500)*0.3)*(1+(0.65*0.83))=2914.053 (8.628%)

Percent values of all of the bonuses in each set and added them together:
Julianos: 1.794+2.933+1.794+6.318=12.839%
Necropotence: 2.659+2.659+2.659+9.82=17.797%
Mother's Sorrow: 2.659+1.794+1.794+3.812=10.059%
Twice Born Star: (Health)+(Stamina)+2.659+8.628=11.287%

It looks like Necropotence comes out on top, not considering Minor or Major Force.

With Minor and Major Force active:
Other Sets: 1.3 [Major Force] * (65 [Critical Damage without Trials buff] + 12 [Minor Force]) = 100.1
Twice Born Star: 1.3 [Major Force] * (83 [Critical Damage without Trials buff] + 12 [Minor Force]) = 123.5

Base: (((40,000/10.5)+2500)*0.3)*(1+(0.65*1.001))=3124.444 (32% stronger than the original Base)
The effect of a 967 Magicka set bonus: (((41509/10.5)+2500)*0.3)*(1+(0.65*1.001))=3195.611 (2.277%)
The effect of a 129 Spell Damage set bonus: (((40,000/10.5)+2661)*0.3)*(1+(0.65*1.001))=3204.171 (2.551%)
The effect of a 688 Spell Crit set bonus: (((40,000/10.5)+2500)*0.3)*(1+(0.681*1.001))=3181.892 (1.838%)

Next, the 5-piece set bonuses at the higher crit and modifier:
Julianos' 299 Spell Damage: (((40,000/10.5)+2873.75)*0.3)*(1+(0.65*1.001))=3308.22 (5.881%)
Necropotence's 4000 Magicka: (((46235.6/10.5)+2500)*0.3)*(1+(0.65*1.001))=3417.178 (9.369%)
Mother's Sorrow 1643 Spell Crit: (((40,000/10.5)+2500)*0.3)*(1+(0.725*1.001))=3265.178 (4.5%)
Twice Born Star's Shadow Mundus: (((40,000/10.5)+2500)*0.3)*(1+(0.65*1.235))=3412.348 (9.214%)

Percent values of all of the bonuses in each set and added them together:
Julianos: 1.838+2.551+1.838+5.881=12.108%
Necropotence: 2.277+2.277+2.277+9.369=16.2%
Mother's Sorrow: 2.277+1.838+1.838+4.5=10.453%
Twice Born Star: (Health)+(Stamina)+2.277+9.214=11.491%

Here, there really doesn't seem to be a huge difference. All the non-TBS sets drop a little, and TBS rises, but it still remains in 3rd position under Julianos and far below Necropotence.

Once again, if I've made any errors, please let me know.

dpencil · October 2016

Also, how would you effectively judge between a procing monster set like Ilambris and the use of a second 5-piece. For example, Ilambris+TBS/Julianos+IA/Will vs 5 TBS/Julianos+5 Necropotence? I can't think of a good way to calculate the difference.