"It will always be items worse than what you can craft" topic

FLuFFyxMuFFiN · September 2016

Unsent.Soul wrote: »

Lumbermill_Emperor wrote: »

it takes 10 pages and 7k views for ZOS to react
they reacting in other topic

reposting here
the point of my topic still stand until they will not add equal recipe

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone, here’s where we are with Crown Crates:

We put systems on the PTS for player feedback for a reason – we have sifted (and continue to analyze) your feedback on Crown Crates, and as such, we’re going to make at least the following changes to the system before it goes live later this year:
We are working to change the way the system works to ensure that you get higher tiered items more often.

We will allow you to convert unwanted Crown Crate consumables into Crown Gems. This way, you won’t be stuck with consumables you may not want, and you will also have more Gems to purchase the items that you do want.

We will also take another look at Crown Crate potions, food, XP scrolls, etc. with an eye towards boosting their effectiveness and/or duration. This may entail us adding new recipes to allow crafters to make similar items.

We may well find other changes we want to make as well, and will let everyone know what we have done when this initial round of changes are in and can test them internally.

It's on pts. They are being tested, they haven't hit live yet, and they will change numerical values based on feedback.

All you're doing is jumping the gun, tightening your tin foil hat.

This. What will most likely happen is they will make a new XP potion that gives a higher bonus than the Ambrosia

dodgehopper_ESO · September 2016

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

Lumbermill_Emperor wrote: »

@DRXHarbinger
you wrong because you never grind

its enough gold earned to allow you to buy ambrosia
and also its enough skillpoints for one build even with fighters guild skills

That's not the point I said. Power grind to lvl 50 and no you won't have FG 10. You'll be around 7/7.5, then you spend hours killing iirc 600 zombies in alikr. Been there 6 times. Also gold earned to buy ambrosia...that depends on your platform, for xp pots are 20k for 4. Perfect roe is 15. You arent buying that in game on a grind toon. Ambrosia frags are 20-25k.

After that you need to spend hours farming skyshards to level up alchemy at least. That's 39 just for that.

What we need in the crown store are more skill points. I've gotten them on all my Sorc and want all skills unlocked but can't. Joke.

If you grind, you should easily be Fighters Guild 10 before you are level 50. I suppose if you use Scrolls and the crafted consumable you might be less than 10, but that is hardly a problem, and getting to FG 10 is still very easy.

bigted209 · September 2016

Lumbermill_Emperor wrote: »

bigted209 wrote: »

Can't say I truly understand what the outrage is all about. We've had XP pots and scrolls available for a long time...how are these different? Fun story...I created a magDK and got him to 50 the same day by using crafted training gear and XP scrolls. Did I pay to win, or do I just understand how to level an alt? Not really seeing the problem here...

@bigted209
the difference will be now
if you dont - read first post and pictures i posted lol to compare

Read it again...still do not see why this is a problem. As has been mentioned...being max level/CP cap doesn't mean a whole lot. Can't tell you how many times I've scratched my head at 531s wiping in undaunted content because they have been playing in first person the whole time. Or perhaps at the ones in cyrodiil in their light divines min/maxed pve setup getting wrecked by cp 50s that understand the benefit of impen gear. Being high level does not mean high skill, or ample ability. Just means you got to the end of that road. By your logic, training gear shouldn't exist, crown XP scrolls are the antichrist, and psychic ambrosia should be hidden at the top of the highest mountain guarded by a balrog. I do not for the life of me understand why a more powerful XP gain item is P2W, game breaking, or even remotely problematic in the least. Bigger bugs and problems to worry about than how someone chooses to level their alts.

Or is it because you are mad they said crafted stuff will always be more powerful that crown store items? If that's the case....

Own · September 2016

The people not at the cp cap complain about 150% exp pots?

FortheloveofKrist · September 2016

leepalmer95 wrote: »

They either need too change the 150% or bring out a new recipe that uses something like rare perfect roe and basically makes a similar pot.

Rare Perfect Roe

There is a chance you may have accidentally consumed a Potion of Redundancy.

Unless you are saying you would like to have an even more rare version of Perfect Roe. I guess the drop rate would be the same as hitting all 6 Power Ball numbers.

MornaBaine · September 2016

Lumbermill_Emperor wrote: »

it takes 10 pages and 7k views for ZOS to react
they reacting in other topic

reposting here
the point of my topic still stand until they will not add equal recipe

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone, here’s where we are with Crown Crates:

We put systems on the PTS for player feedback for a reason – we have sifted (and continue to analyze) your feedback on Crown Crates, and as such, we’re going to make at least the following changes to the system before it goes live later this year:
We are working to change the way the system works to ensure that you get higher tiered items more often.

We will allow you to convert unwanted Crown Crate consumables into Crown Gems. This way, you won’t be stuck with consumables you may not want, and you will also have more Gems to purchase the items that you do want.

We will also take another look at Crown Crate potions, food, XP scrolls, etc. with an eye towards boosting their effectiveness and/or duration. This may entail us adding new recipes to allow crafters to make similar items.

We may well find other changes we want to make as well, and will let everyone know what we have done when this initial round of changes are in and can test them internally.

Can you please link the thread this quote from Gina comes from?

FLuFFyxMuFFiN · September 2016

MornaBaine wrote: »

Lumbermill_Emperor wrote: »

it takes 10 pages and 7k views for ZOS to react
they reacting in other topic

reposting here
the point of my topic still stand until they will not add equal recipe

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone, here’s where we are with Crown Crates:

We put systems on the PTS for player feedback for a reason – we have sifted (and continue to analyze) your feedback on Crown Crates, and as such, we’re going to make at least the following changes to the system before it goes live later this year:
We are working to change the way the system works to ensure that you get higher tiered items more often.

We will allow you to convert unwanted Crown Crate consumables into Crown Gems. This way, you won’t be stuck with consumables you may not want, and you will also have more Gems to purchase the items that you do want.

We will also take another look at Crown Crate potions, food, XP scrolls, etc. with an eye towards boosting their effectiveness and/or duration. This may entail us adding new recipes to allow crafters to make similar items.

We may well find other changes we want to make as well, and will let everyone know what we have done when this initial round of changes are in and can test them internally.

Can you please link the thread this quote from Gina comes from?

@MornaBaine here you go

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/292545/official-discussion-thread-for-crown-crates#latest

WhiteCoatSyndrome · September 2016

Here you go @MornaBaine .

ConterK · September 2016

Bruh!!
this is pay to progress FASTER!!...
you can still progress without paying..

the game ALWAYS had that pay to progress FASTER option..

From the start with the ring of Mara.. then the ESO plus membership.. etc etc..

This is the same thing.. lol

Cherryblossom · September 2016

Lumbermill_Emperor wrote: »

and the other 70% naive simpletons, they didnt understanding the real threat in this grand scrolls

I get it now, it's a conspiracy! You should of said and linked to your You Tube video!

So the 70% are correct, but are failing to see the conspiracy. I think I get where your coming from now.

Cherryblossom · September 2016

exeeter702 wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Valen_Byte wrote: »

All of you that are saying "its not p2w" are missing the true point here.

The issue here is integrity. They said they would NEVER put ANY consumibles in the crown store that are better than crafted consumables. They said it on there FAQ, they said it in a live stream, and they have said it here on the forums.

Looks like they lied. Integrity, is on its way out. One person in this thread even said "that was 2 years ago, things change" Had to just smh at that one. On that logic, I married my wife 20 years ago so the promises I made are no longer valid. Im sure that would go over well with the wife.

Like I said this is not a p2w issue...its about integrity. Something that is beginning to seem very rare in game and in the real world.

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Lumbermill_Emperor wrote: »

@Cherryblossom
i know i can craft training gear and i use id for grinding ofc

still its not linked with the matter of my topic
and math from first post will remain the same with training gear on me or not

Your whole argument is crafters get shafted. He showed you craters don't, I showed you they don't, and then you call "pay to progress"

Bro, stop trolling. Please.

Not that I agree with him. But for his point, it's not a troll. Training gear is separate to his issue since it's not a perk that would counter the scrolls, but is simply an addition to it. He is saying everyone has access to it, and stacks with other exp bonuses so referencing training gear is pointless.

Don't feed him. This conversation started as "p2w" then "p2progress" whatever the *** that is, to they broke some statement, not promise, a year + ago.

And training is relevant, heavily. Crafters get a more reliable, effective, and easier xP boost option over someone buying even these scrolls.

The point is, training gear is entirely separate and crafters are not prohibited from using scrolls or ambrosias either. Any argument that could be made can ignore training exp boost as it is accessible in game to everyone and it simply adds to any exp boost a player obtains, crown crate or otherwise. They are not mutually exclusive.

Feel free to expose the OP for the fool that he is showing himself to be, but make sure your points are concise.

I disagree, the OPs point was you couldn't craft 150% training bonus, but as you can his point is wrong.

Asardes · September 2016

Gaining XP quickly, reaching 50 and gaining CP while repeating the same activity (grinidng) does not give you a significant advantage. In fact, compared to other players who have actually engaged in more diverse activities, for example a mix of questing, doing group dungeons, PvP and have learned to play their builds better you are at a disadvantage.

For example. I ran VWGT for gold pledge on Saturday with a group of full or almost full CP players. It was horrible, wasted more than one hour there and finally quit at Kena because their DPS sucked badly and they were using the wrong gear and skills - one Templar ran 2 axes - had he read the twin blade and blunt passive tool tip he would have seen that only swords increase damage - and spammed radiant with entropy at full health boss while standing in red - channels are not empowered and the tooltip for radiant clearly states it has bonus damage only for low health targets; he then tried to run from attro healing all the way instead of bursting it. After a dozen wipes I had had enough and promptly quit. Finished with another group later in ~20 minutes with 1-2 deaths in total.

I haven't really used any XP bonuses except training on my gear up to ~CP240 and the anniversary cake bonus while it was active (about 10 days in April if I remember). Despite this "disadvantage" I have been able to get 672 CP in a bit less than one year. I haven't grinded anything during that period, except maybe jumping dolmens in some areas for fast fighters guild reputation gain. But that was < 0.5% of my play time.

TL:DR Don't grind, L2P, XP modifiers, crafted or bought are useless in the long run.

Lumbermill_Emperor · September 2016

@Cherryblossom you literally cant read, do you?

training bonus from gear can be acquired by any player in the game without real money involved
it doesnt matter for my topic because calculation of exp/mob will have same difference if i compare two heroes without training gear, or with

the difference between ambrosia hero and grand scroll hero always be the same, if they have equal gear and other conditions

i dont believe you still didnt get it
are you just a troll?

Pangnirtung · September 2016

Lumbermill_Emperor wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno
forgive me but im mad now
when i saw you adding this scrolls to update12...
https://help.elderscrollsonline.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/26604

dam ZOS...

EXAMPLE
right now im getting 993 exp with eso+ and ambrosia
by cp300 template for cp160 zombie
from cp300 to cp400 i need 30 566 777 exp
so i need to kill 30 782 zombies
for example i can kill 1000 zombies per hour
its ~30.7 hours
if you grinding 3 hours per day its 11 days

with eso+ and grand scroll
im getting 1614 per mob
its 18 938 zombies from cp300 to 400
18.9 hours
7 days

7 days < 11 days
PAY TO PROGRESS CONFIRMED

I was here when they assured us that they would NEVER put any consumables in the crown store that are better than what you can craft. I heard it with my own ears. That is a promise, or giving a community your word. Same thing. They made that promise because the community was up in arms over the crown store potions. They assured us a million times that they would not do what they are doing right now.
I think Horse training is BS too. We all had to "do the content" to level our horses. I'm surprised they don't sell crafting levels or Trait knowledge so you can avoid that pesky research and decon BS that so many of us endured. They'll sell motifs you don't need to collect. They might as well sell gold, right?
The point is when ZOS starts selling level 50 characters and then CP packs people will say "so what you can grind out CP with XP pots, scrolls, ..."

I think that they sincerely meant it at the time.

It just turns out that they changed their minds.

Malitias · September 2016

It's not about whether or not it's "pay to win" where "win" is kind of debatable.
It's about making a promise about a very sensitive subject and not keeping it.
There is a multitude of games that went downhill after breaking promises because the community felt betrayed.
Companies should learn from their mistakes rather than repeat them.

AmberLaTerra · September 2016

It is no longer just the scrolls. This is their reply to the massive negative feedback on crown crates on the PTS forums.

"
ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »
Hi everyone, here’s where we are with Crown Crates:

We put systems on the PTS for player feedback for a reason – we have sifted (and continue to analyze) your feedback on Crown Crates, and as such, we’re going to make at least the following changes to the system before it goes live later this year:

We are working to change the way the system works to ensure that you get higher tiered items more often.
We will allow you to convert unwanted Crown Crate consumables into Crown Gems. This way, you won’t be stuck with consumables you may not want, and you will also have more Gems to purchase the items that you do want.
We will also take another look at Crown Crate potions, food, XP scrolls, etc. with an eye towards boosting their effectiveness and/or duration. This may entail us adding new recipes to allow crafters to make similar items.

We may well find other changes we want to make as well, and will let everyone know what we have done when this initial round of changes are in and can test them internally."

They will be buffing potions and foods from the crates making them equal or better then what is currently in game then only look into adding new likely extremely rare recipes to match them if they do so at all since it "may entail us adding."

STEVIL · September 2016

Malitias wrote: »

It's not about whether or not it's "pay to win" where "win" is kind of debatable.
It's about making a promise about a very sensitive subject and not keeping it.
There is a multitude of games that went downhill after breaking promises because the community felt betrayed.
Companies should learn from their mistakes rather than repeat them.

First, it is yet unclear that this is a promise that has been broken. the items being cited are in PTS, not live and in spite of comments in this thread are apparently not coming in U12 but may come later this year.

Second, it is also not clear this is a promise that is being broken because we do not know whether or not by the time these come in if they ever do that we will not also see added recipes or other consumable crafting options that keep crafting on par or better. there seem to be some new recipes coming in U12 or upcoming events so... cant be sure.

Third, even if the raw numbers can draw outrage from those seeking it, the behind the scenes can shift the reality. its already noted here that since ambrosia is crafted and can benefit from passives the duration on the tooltip is not the whole story. Similarly differences in stacking (now or later when these get introduced) can also play a role.

Fourth, this is a convenience/speed item not a power item. This will be even more true under OneT. the crown store already has convenience/speed better than what you can get in the game available for purchase. I can level my horse a lot faster at the store than the stables.

Fifth, frankly, i dont know of any company that never changed a stated policy ever over a two year period. IMO outrage should be about what the change does not that the game is evolving.

At least, from my POV.

YMMV.

TANGENTIAL ASIDE: My actual most current concern about crafting has nothing to do with the crown store. my concern is that the new set deployment scheme in OneT (which i like BTW) shifts the balance between "what i can find" vs "what i can craft" too far to the side of the "find". IF they do not provide some new boost to crafting equip i see myself in maybe just a few months having almost no crafted items worn and not just no need to craft gear but it being an actual negative and only use for crafting being to upgrade qualities.

Lumbermill_Emperor · September 2016

Update!

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

OVERVIEW
While we’ve fixed some minor bugs with Crown Crates, most of the planned improvements mentioned in this post have not yet been implemented; you can expect to see these changes when Crown Crates are released later this year.

Some_Guy · September 2016

ZOS hasn't commented on this post yet with an answer. Almost like they haven't seen it yet... Bet if I dropped an F-bomb or two they'd see it real quick.

Lumbermill_Emperor wrote: »

Update!

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

OVERVIEW
While we’ve fixed some minor bugs with Crown Crates, most of the planned improvements mentioned in this post have not yet been implemented; you can expect to see these changes when Crown Crates are released later this year.

Sooo.... we can't test it on PTS and won't know what it'll actually be like until we spend real world money on the live server? Yeah, not getting a single penny out of me.

Lumbermill_Emperor · September 2016

Some_Guy wrote: »

ZOS hasn't commented on this post yet with an answer. Almost like they haven't seen it yet... Bet if I dropped an F-bomb or two they'd see it real quick.

Lumbermill_Emperor wrote: »

Update!

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

OVERVIEW
While we’ve fixed some minor bugs with Crown Crates, most of the planned improvements mentioned in this post have not yet been implemented; you can expect to see these changes when Crown Crates are released later this year.

Sooo.... we can't test it on PTS and won't know what it'll actually be like until we spend real world money on the live server? Yeah, not getting a single penny out of me.

agreed

Amarynth · September 2016

Pangnirtung wrote: »

I think that they sincerely meant it at the time.

It just turns out that they changed their minds.

Just like when they used to say that crafted armor sets would always be the best sets in the game!

Lumbermill_Emperor · September 2016

still not good news here
and no staff comments

Wifeaggro13 · September 2016

Lumbermill_Emperor wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno
forgive me but im mad now
when i saw you adding this scrolls to update12...
https://help.elderscrollsonline.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/26604

dam ZOS...

EXAMPLE
right now im getting 993 exp with eso+ and ambrosia
by cp300 template for cp160 zombie
from cp300 to cp400 i need 30 566 777 exp
so i need to kill 30 782 zombies
for example i can kill 1000 zombies per hour
its ~30.7 hours
if you grinding 3 hours per day its 11 days

with eso+ and grand scroll
im getting 1614 per mob
its 18 938 zombies from cp300 to 400
18.9 hours
7 days

7 days < 11 days
PAY TO PROGRESS CONFIRMED

I was here when they assured us that they would NEVER put any consumables in the crown store that are better than what you can craft. I heard it with my own ears. That is a promise, or giving a community your word. Same thing. They made that promise because the community was up in arms over the crown store potions. They assured us a million times that they would not do what they are doing right now.
I think Horse training is BS too. We all had to "do the content" to level our horses. I'm surprised they don't sell crafting levels or Trait knowledge so you can avoid that pesky research and decon BS that so many of us endured. They'll sell motifs you don't need to collect. They might as well sell gold, right?
The point is when ZOS starts selling level 50 characters and then CP packs people will say "so what you can grind out CP with XP pots, scrolls, ..."

I don't think you understand . Though it's dancing on the line. Nothing is behind a gate. It increases you min maxing your rate of aquiring but it does not gate anything , or hide things behind paywalls. This is a typical B2P model. A true P2W model is Neverwinter.

JamilaRaj · September 2016

Asardes wrote: »

Gaining XP quickly, reaching 50 and gaining CP while repeating the same activity (grinidng) does not give you a significant advantage. In fact, compared to other players who have actually engaged in more diverse activities, for example a mix of questing, doing group dungeons, PvP and have learned to play their builds better you are at a disadvantage.

For example. I ran VWGT for gold pledge on Saturday with a group of full or almost full CP players. It was horrible, wasted more than one hour there and finally quit at Kena because their DPS sucked badly and they were using the wrong gear and skills - one Templar ran 2 axes - had he read the twin blade and blunt passive tool tip he would have seen that only swords increase damage - and spammed radiant with entropy at full health boss while standing in red - channels are not empowered and the tooltip for radiant clearly states it has bonus damage only for low health targets; he then tried to run from attro healing all the way instead of bursting it. After a dozen wipes I had had enough and promptly quit. Finished with another group later in ~20 minutes with 1-2 deaths in total.

I haven't really used any XP bonuses except training on my gear up to ~CP240 and the anniversary cake bonus while it was active (about 10 days in April if I remember). Despite this "disadvantage" I have been able to get 672 CP in a bit less than one year. I haven't grinded anything during that period, except maybe jumping dolmens in some areas for fast fighters guild reputation gain. But that was < 0.5% of my play time.

TL:DR Don't grind, L2P, XP modifiers, crafted or bought are useless in the long run.

Yes, of two people with the same stats, the one with more played time will be likely more proficient in playing.
The thing is that they will not have the same stats; after playing for the same amount of time, the one who P2W will be as proficient as the other, but will have better stats. If you wipe with this player, you will 100% wipe with the other too, but if you wipe with the other, you may or may not wipe with this one, depending on how much power he bought.

NewBlacksmurf · September 2016

One day ppl will realize they don't have to complain.....just stop spending money on the product

Lava_Croft · September 2016

MissBizz wrote: »

In my eyes it's not a matter of Pay 2 Win or not, it's showcasing that Zos is willing and able to go against the standards they set for themselves.

https://help.elderscrollsonline.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/26604

WILL CONSUMABLES BE TAKEN OUT OF THE GAME AND MOVED TO THE CROWN STORE?
Updated 03/16/2015 11:24 AM Published 01/23/2015 05:22 PM
Consumables will remain in the game, and crafters will still be able to create them. In fact, crafters will be able create the best versions of consumable items.

Emphasis by me.

They need to change the scrolls, give crafters a better version, or fix this support article.

Or they just do what ZOS always has done: back track on promises made and forget about it.

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO · September 2016

its easy to get to cap then its irrelevant anyway. id rather have stuff to get people through the grind than nothing. total non issue

Ghost-Shot · September 2016

Every crown store update they push the boundaries just a little bit further, its only a matter of time before you can purchase crown enchants, starter gear, a universal upgrade material. How anyone continues to take this game seriously amazes me.

Lumbermill_Emperor · October 2016

sad, but tru

DRXHarbinger · October 2016

It's still not pay to win. You can grind faster but take a grinder into vMoL and watch them wipe over and over. They'll still take hours and hours on last boss vma and post threads on here complaining about it. If anything it'll. Slow the progress down on the game and make it harder to tell who's good and who is not.

When we get unique weapons and enchants etc in there then yes we'll all agree otherwise. It will probably happen at some point no doubt.