The problem with Undaunted Plunder and the easy way to fix it
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Silver_Strider✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭arkansas_ESO wrote: »
Not to be rude, but can you list any? Apart from repair bills and respeccing, I can't really think of anything that physically takes gold out of the economy.
Guild Traders are a gold sink. They take out millions of gold from the game between actually getting 1 and the house cut taxes they do.
Another, albeit minor, gold sink is horse training. 8-12 characters, 250 gold a day, for 6 months. Granted this one is more lenient of a gold sink because not everyone will make 8+ characters, nor will they bother training their horses on all characters but it's still somewhat of a gold sink.
Then, there are Bag and Bank space upgrades. Bank space is once per account so it's slightly easier to manage but Bag space is a nightmare with multiple characters to fully upgrade. Same with the horse training as in it's an optional thing but it makes life so much easier when you aren't constantly overburdened with loot to sell/decon.Argonian forever1 -
CasNation✭✭✭✭✭
What does that has to do with anything lol
It's an example of how currency is devalued when you inject money into the economy artificially, which is exactly what the new plunder (and several other things) does.PC NA AD
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code65536✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Silver_Strider wrote: »
Guild Traders are a gold sink. They take out millions of gold from the game between actually getting 1 and the house cut taxes they do.
Another, albeit minor, gold sink is horse training. 8-12 characters, 250 gold a day, for 6 months. Granted this one is more lenient of a gold sink because not everyone will make 8+ characters, nor will they bother training their horses on all characters but it's still somewhat of a gold sink.
Then, there are Bag and Bank space upgrades. Bank space is once per account so it's slightly easier to manage but Bag space is a nightmare with multiple characters to fully upgrade. Same with the horse training as in it's an optional thing but it makes life so much easier when you aren't constantly overburdened with loot to sell/decon.
The costs associated with the player-to-player economy (notably, kiosk bids, COD fees, and the half of the sales taxes to go to ZOS) are the only gold sinks that scale up with the amount of gold circulating in the economy. Of these, kiosk bids are by far the largest.
The skyrocketing bid prices on PC/NA (and probably on other servers too) is indicative of how ineffective the other gold sinks are and just how much gold there is sloshing around the economy for many large guilds to be plopping down 8-figure bids every week. And it's very stressful--as the GM of a trade guild (albeit a small one), I am in contact with a number of other trade guild GMs, and the amount of fundraising GMs do--raffles, auctions, donation drives, etc.--in order to compete in the kiosk bids is staggering, and I know GMs who have burned out and left the game.
Horse training? Bag upgrades? No, those are one-time expenses. Once you've maxed your horse, bank, and bags, they cease to matter. Since we're talking about vet trials here, the people who participate in these kinds of activities have mostly been in the game long enough that inventory upgrades are things of the past. And unless you're learning a dungeon and trial and wiping repeatedly, repair bills more than offset by gold drops and trash vendorables (particularly ornate items). Even in vMA, which has the worst repair-to-value ratio due to the lack of mob drops and the high XP gain (armor erosion is tied to XP gain), you need to die more than 6 or 7 times in order for you to lose gold on repairs after you figure in the gold and vendor value of the items from the chests (of course, someone new to vMA will wipe far more than that and lose gold, but just like bag upgrades, that's a temporary problem that will go away after they get more clears under their belt). When I run vMA or a dungeon or a trial, I have a net gain of gold after paying my repair bills (yes, I do lose gold to potion expenses, but we're talking about gold sources/sinks so player-to-player losses/gains are not relevant).
So, yes, this game absolutely needs more gold sinks or at least no more big gold fountains, and the lack of effective gold sinks outside of the kiosk bid system is most visible when you look at the increasing pressure on the kiosk bids.Edited by code65536 on September 22, 2016 7:34PMNightfighters ― PC/NA and PC/EU
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NewBlacksmurf✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I disagree
I actually believe that in addition to these crates, they should also exist in all vet dungeons too but the actual issue is that nocs drop too little gold.
That's actually the real issue. As NPcs level up, gold drops should too but now with the scaling, gold should be based on our level. I'd suggest npcs dropping 150gp at higher cap and no less than 20gp at lower cost.Edited by NewBlacksmurf on September 22, 2016 6:41PM-PC (PTS)/Xbox One: NewBlacksmurf
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code65536✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭NewBlacksmurf wrote: »I disagree
I actually believe that in addition to these crates, they should also exist in all vet dungeons too but the actual issue is that nocs drop too little gold.
That's actually the real issue. As NPcs level up, gold drops should too but now with the scaling, gold should be based on our level. I'd suggest npcs dropping 150gp at higher cap and no less than 20gp at lower cost.
Absolutely not.
I make several thousand gold per dungeon run. Most of it in the form of vendoring trash drops like those ornate staves that go for almost 300g. Doing one pledge is about as profitable as the gold quest rewards from one of my character's writs. Even trials are net gold sources, if you loot and vendor all those trash items. It's only once you factor in player-to-player expenses like potions that trials become losses.
There just aren't enough gold sinks in the game to support drunkenly adding more gold sources.Edited by code65536 on September 22, 2016 6:47PMNightfighters ― PC/NA and PC/EU
Dungeons and Trials:SpoilerPersonal best scores:- Dragonstar Arena: 46817 (NA)
- Maelstrom Arena: 600526 (NA)
- Blackrose Prison: 99274 (EU) (Unchained)
- Maw of Lorkhaj: 165227 (EU)
- Halls of Fabrication: 220708 (NA) (Tick-Tock Tormentor #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8, #9, #10, #11, #12)
- Asylum Sanctorium: 114957 (NA) (Immortal Redeemer #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8, #9, #10)
- Cloudrest: 131256 (NA) (Gryphon Heart #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7)
- Sunspire: 250866 (EU) (Godslayer #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7)
- Kyne's Aegis: 235841 (EU) (Dawnbringer #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8)
Dungeon trifectas:- Mountain God and Leave No Bone Unbroken
- Apex Predator and Pure Lunacy
- Depths Defier and Relentless Raider
- Defanged the Devourer and Nature's Wrath
- In Defiance of Death and No Rest for the Wicked
- Bane of Thorns and True Genius
- Ardent Bibliophile and Subterranean Smasher
- Battlespire's Best and Bastion Breaker
- Zero Regrets and Land, Air, and Sea Supremacy
- Fist of Tava and Invader's Bane
- Curator's Champion (Valinna) and Temporal Tempest
- Unshakeable Fervor and Lighting the Embers
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Sallington✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭asneakybanana wrote: »I totally agree about the idea of getting alchemical supplies somehow but I feel as though people should be able to choose their reward. There is a store or something that you can trade in your undaunted plunder for flowers/gold mats to make each plunder worth approximately 1k. For instance, 4 undaunted plunder=1 gold temper, 1 undaunted plunder=10 of the flower of your choice. I realize this might be pretty hard to implement but its better than adding more RNG into the game. If it cant be however then the chest/satchel idea would work well.
This is a very small, amazing example of how token systems can be added to ESO.
(This post counts as 1 token for you to not kill me in Cyrodil)Edited by Sallington on September 22, 2016 7:12PMDaggerfall Covenant
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silvereyes✭✭✭✭✭
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Any purchase from an NPC vendor, including - notably - the PvP golden vendor. She's getting 2 new 250k items per week to sell in update 12, as well as several new monster sets at 100k a piece that might entice a few to purchase (Ilambris), so that's something.arkansas_ESO wrote: »
Not to be rude, but can you list any? Apart from repair bills and respeccing, I can't really think of anything that physically takes gold out of the economy.
I have a feeling that it still might not be that good of a gold sink unless ZOS un-pollutes the loot table a great deal. Nobody will pay 250k for a Sithis jewel, for instance, so those would be wasted weeks. But expect the weeks that Silks of the Sun and Red Mountain jewelry pop up to be huge gold sinks.
Then there's the new minimum trader bid of 10k. Probably won't affect more than a handful of kiosks, though, so it's not too significant.
There's also the issue that set items are going to be dropping like candy now for lowbie toons, so I don't expect many people to purchase gear from NPCs anymore. Again, probably not very significant, since I doubt many people purchased NPC gear before anyways.Edited by silvereyes on September 23, 2016 6:09AM[PC/NA] @silvereyes | My Addons on ESOUI.com0 -
asneakybanana✭✭✭✭✭
What does that has to do with anything lol
research Venezuelan inflation. Almost overnight totally devalued their currency. A bit of an extreme example but over time this would happen to the value of ESO gold compared to items.Sweat SquadSpoilerAsneakybanana AD DK Former emperor of Chrysamere and Chillrend. World first hardmode Hel'ra and Quake con winner (Alliance rank 25)
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Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭asneakybanana wrote: »
research Venezuelan inflation. Almost overnight totally devalued their currency. A bit of an extreme example but over time this would happen to the value of ESO gold compared to items.
Except their economy is largely based on gas exports (little over half). When that price dropped per barrel, they took a hit and could not raise the money to help bring in export goods (much of which is good related since they also export most of their food items). So the price of everyday goods increased further increasing inflation.
Their original issue came from 1950 with an injection of printing money.
So their issue is largely based on an issue that would never plague ESO; this trials change is essentially a "wage" or conversion of trial battles into monetary numbers not a severe drop in one product that effects the cost of goods overall.
The only thing that will determine the increase in inflation, is if players are requesting obscene money for goods:
-nifty mentioned 15000 for each stack of pots. Is this for 200? Or 100? I assume 200 based on the below example
- spell power pots requires 25 of 4 materials; water, corn, lady and water haylcn. On my MM, the Flowers go for 90, 80, 90 gold each, roughly, and the water goes for 40. There price per 100 stack is 7500 gold times 2= 15000.
- the above example means no one is making money. So I must assume nifty is referring to stacks of 100 instead of 200. Based on the number above, pot makers are getting a 50% markup on each stack.
This greed, and lack of options to help reduce price of flowers, is causing inflation. Further price increases based on players holding flowers for personal use instead of selling to the market (someone on here mentioned having 800 columbine and waiting to sell when one tamreil hits.). So if you want to combat the pot inflation, the better fix is to make sure players don't horde flowers, add a way to get flowers other than hireling/limited farming, scale gold incomes to reflect the type of play in relation to the market.
I'm hoping one tamreil increased supply of flowers so it better matches the demand.
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arkansas_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'm hoping one tamreil increased supply of flowers so it better matches the demand.
If anything, the supply is going to go down. Now you'll be unable to have a DC, AD, and EP instance of every zone to farm in, and the people in each of those zones is now going to be directly competing with each other for nodes. Prices are going up without a doubt.
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Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭arkansas_ESO wrote: »
If anything, the supply is going to go down. Now you'll be unable to have a DC, AD, and EP instance of every zone to farm in, and the people in each of those zones is now going to be directly competing with each other for nodes. Prices are going up without a doubt.
Truth except they mentioned in their patch notes they increased the node frequency for a few zones. So we just need to make sure they look at the this issue instead of the trial change.Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
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Sallington✭✭✭✭✭
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Truth except they mentioned in their patch notes they increased the node frequency for a few zones. So we just need to make sure they look at the this issue instead of the trial change.
10$ says there's a bug where no nodes respawn and we're paying 50k gold per columbine by the end of the month.Daggerfall Covenant
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Silver_Strider✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Sallington wrote: »
10$ says there's a bug where no nodes respawn and we're paying 50k gold per columbine by the end of the month.
Or people say "f*** potions" and just use abilities that grant them their buffs. It's a DPS loss sure but better than dropping a million for 1 trial runArgonian forever0 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Silver_Strider wrote: »
Or people say "f*** potions" and just use abilities that grant them their buffs. It's a DPS loss sure but better than dropping a million for 1 trial run
Templar buff lolMinno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
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the problem with your analysis is that with almost everything bop gold will be worthless anyway. there will be nothing to buy but pots motifs and crafting supplies. inflation hardly matters if there isnt much to buy that anyone needs0
