I like this concept. I personally don't like doing writs and find it to be a time sink. This idea allows someone to do the content ( play the game) with the chance for useful items that can be used or sold.

I totally agree about the idea of getting alchemical supplies somehow but I feel as though people should be able to choose their reward. There is a store or something that you can trade in your undaunted plunder for flowers/gold mats to make each plunder worth approximately 1k. For instance, 4 undaunted plunder=1 gold temper, 1 undaunted plunder=10 of the flower of your choice. I realize this might be pretty hard to implement but its better than adding more RNG into the game. If it cant be however then the chest/satchel idea would work well.

Great idea, the last thing we want is insane amounts of gold in the economy where gold mats or potions costing millions of gold. It happened in UO back in the day, new players worked hard to get 10k gold collected over 2 weeks killing monsters, then they wanted to buy something on the player market only to realise it cost 1 million gold.

@Nifty2g @Alcast

Thoughts?

I agree. It's nice that ZoS is trying to help the raiding community, but doing so by just creating gold in such masses is simpy not a good idea and will lead to more issues. We don't need more gold creation means, we need more gold sinks at this point.

Yes to some sort of Vendor selling flowers and mats for tokens!

code65536 wrote: »

First, I very much appreciate ZOS taking the time to consider the needs of the endgame trials community and attempting to offset the loss of sellable BoE loot.

But a direct gold injection is not a good solution.

1. The way trial-runners earn gold right now is by selling BoE loot. This is gold that comes from other players and the transaction costs of some of these exchanges (listing fees and COD fees) act as gold sinks. No gold is being added to the economy under the current model. A gold source this large (@asneakybanana did some back-of-the-envelope calculations here) can substantially upset the balance in the economy.
2. It does nothing to address the biggest cost of trial running, and that's potions. With the changes coming in One Tamriel (no more uncontested Hollow City farm loops), the reagent supply will only get tighter, so putting more gold into the hands of some of the biggest consumers will serve to further fuel the already out-of-control inflation in the alchemy market.

But there is a fairly easy way to fix this: Instead of Undaunted Plunder being an item that we vendor for 1K gold, turn the Undaunted Plunder into a key that opens an Undaunted Supplies chest in the lobby of each trial. The chest will yield a repair kit, an assortment of alchemical reagents, and a chance at a gold improvement mat. Make it so that the average value of each chest opening is around 1K. This will avoid directly injecting gold into the economy, provide trial-runners with valuable items that they can either directly use or sell on the player market, and add a little something to the already-constrained supply side of the economy. And it's a simple, tidy concept: we're giving the Undaunted the loot we plundered, and they give us useful stuff in return.

(And, yes, I do like smaller rewards being given at each boss, as opposed to consolidating it all into one big reward at the final boss; the former helps groups that are still learning and progressing through the content, and that's important for cultivating the long-term health of the trial-running community.)

(Alternatively, if key-and-lobby-supply-chest cannot be implemented quickly enough, make each boss drop an Undaunted Supplies satchel with the same sort of loot. It's not quite as immersion-friendly, but most trial runners don't care too much about that in the first place.)

I will agree with a system people can come up with that does not cause any threat what so ever to the farming community.

Have you forgot about hirelings? This system is already in the game, you can get 2 a day which send you free materials and even the chance for a gold temper, the only thing you can not get from a hireling is alchemy ingredients, and if you lock alchemy ingredients behind trials in which will be better than farming it, then you are presented with a problem because that makes the 1% get a huge gain over the 99% of people who cant clear trials and who doesn't even run trials.

Who will be faster, a group of 12 amazing players farming trials non stop to inflate the potion making, or a group of 12 not so good players farming the first boss because that is all they can do, and lets say they wipe a few times. My group will clear the whole trial before they can clear the first boss. This means the 1% is getting a much bigger profit than the 99% which will inevitably mean we can control the market, so why should the minority get that much power?

I like the idea of putting a gold injection in because we sort of need it, there is so many gold sinks in the game that the only way to really make straight up gold is to sell gear or do quests. It's good they added this in to help counter act it. The argument of saying it will just cause inflation, really isn't going to work because look at the average group running trials and how long they take to complete it, and then look at the top tier groups going for score rather than farming it. I personally can not see where your idea of an economy ruining system is happening.

And as a side note, next patch is housing, being realistic here ZOS will most likely add a personal alchemy and so forth farming to housing so putting that behind trials will probably end up being useless anyway. If they have confirmed DPS dummies, just imagine what else can be put into housing.

Nifty2g wrote: »

show previous quotes

code65536 wrote: »

First, I very much appreciate ZOS taking the time to consider the needs of the endgame trials community and attempting to offset the loss of sellable BoE loot.

But a direct gold injection is not a good solution.

1. The way trial-runners earn gold right now is by selling BoE loot. This is gold that comes from other players and the transaction costs of some of these exchanges (listing fees and COD fees) act as gold sinks. No gold is being added to the economy under the current model. A gold source this large (@asneakybanana did some back-of-the-envelope calculations here) can substantially upset the balance in the economy.
2. It does nothing to address the biggest cost of trial running, and that's potions. With the changes coming in One Tamriel (no more uncontested Hollow City farm loops), the reagent supply will only get tighter, so putting more gold into the hands of some of the biggest consumers will serve to further fuel the already out-of-control inflation in the alchemy market.

But there is a fairly easy way to fix this: Instead of Undaunted Plunder being an item that we vendor for 1K gold, turn the Undaunted Plunder into a key that opens an Undaunted Supplies chest in the lobby of each trial. The chest will yield a repair kit, an assortment of alchemical reagents, and a chance at a gold improvement mat. Make it so that the average value of each chest opening is around 1K. This will avoid directly injecting gold into the economy, provide trial-runners with valuable items that they can either directly use or sell on the player market, and add a little something to the already-constrained supply side of the economy. And it's a simple, tidy concept: we're giving the Undaunted the loot we plundered, and they give us useful stuff in return.

(And, yes, I do like smaller rewards being given at each boss, as opposed to consolidating it all into one big reward at the final boss; the former helps groups that are still learning and progressing through the content, and that's important for cultivating the long-term health of the trial-running community.)

(Alternatively, if key-and-lobby-supply-chest cannot be implemented quickly enough, make each boss drop an Undaunted Supplies satchel with the same sort of loot. It's not quite as immersion-friendly, but most trial runners don't care too much about that in the first place.)

I will agree with a system people can come up with that does not cause any threat what so ever to the farming community.

Have you forgot about hirelings? This system is already in the game, you can get 2 a day which send you free materials and even the chance for a gold temper, the only thing you can not get from a hireling is alchemy ingredients, and if you lock alchemy ingredients behind trials in which will be better than farming it, then you are presented with a problem because that makes the 1% get a huge gain over the 99% of people who cant clear trials and who doesn't even run trials.

Who will be faster, a group of 12 amazing players farming trials non stop to inflate the potion making, or a group of 12 not so good players farming the first boss because that is all they can do, and lets say they wipe a few times. My group will clear the whole trial before they can clear the first boss. This means the 1% is getting a much bigger profit than the 99% which will inevitably mean we can control the market, so why should the minority get that much power?

I like the idea of putting a gold injection in because we sort of need it, there is so many gold sinks in the game that the only way to really make straight up gold is to sell gear or do quests. It's good they added this in to help counter act it. The argument of saying it will just cause inflation, really isn't going to work because look at the average group running trials and how long they take to complete it, and then look at the top tier groups going for score rather than farming it. I personally can not see where your idea of an economy ruining system is happening.

And as a side note, next patch is housing, being realistic here ZOS will most likely add a personal alchemy and so forth farming to housing so putting that behind trials will probably end up being useless anyway. If they have confirmed DPS dummies, just imagine what else can be put into housing.

That's because the ones claiming doom/gloom are the pot crafters exploiting your trial crews lol.

Access to the mats themselves will determine the cost of pots, assuming the final product need stays the same.

Sorry, am I missing something?

12 people go into a trial and get 10k worth of loot each in the form of an item to sell on a vendor.
12 players who DIDN'T go on a trial buy the trial stuff
Then trial players spend 5k of that on new potions

this is somehow different to

12 people go into a trial and get 10k worth of loot each.
Then trial players spend 5k of that on new potions

This will negatively affect the cost of potions how? All I see is one bunch of people didn't buy the trial equipment.
The demand for potions is unchanged.
The supply of potions is unchanged.
The only way I can see this changing is if the group who is not buying trials equipment is now buying potions with their gold instead.

asneakybanana wrote: »

show previous quotes

Tannus15 wrote: »

Sorry, am I missing something?

12 people go into a trial and get 10k worth of loot each in the form of an item to sell on a vendor.
12 players who DIDN'T go on a trial buy the trial stuff
Then trial players spend 5k of that on new potions

this is somehow different to

12 people go into a trial and get 10k worth of loot each.
Then trial players spend 5k of that on new potions

This will negatively affect the cost of potions how? All I see is one bunch of people didn't buy the trial equipment.
The demand for potions is unchanged.
The supply of potions is unchanged.
The only way I can see this changing is if the group who is not buying trials equipment is now buying potions with their gold instead.

So, its a matter of where the gold you are getting is coming from. If the gold is coming from the vendor its not like the vendor can only buy a certain amount of items, no, the vendor has an unlimited amount of gold that is only accessible through selling items, usually cheap, to him/her. However, this new system adds an item that is relatively valuable and relatively easy to acquire that can be sold to him netting a player a decent chunk of change. Now if that players runs the trial over and over again they are going to be getting more and more money that not just them, but every player in the game can use to buy items from the vendor and from other players. Since there are so few gold sinks in the game right now over time the amount of gold being added into the economy will go up and up until the source of the gold is either removed or reduced to be in line w/ the gold sinks in the game.

Now, if the player gets an item worth 10k that is tradeable to other players, lets say a viper ring, he is going to take that item that was just created and sell it to another player. Now, that other player does not have the same type of gold pouch that the vendor has, his is limited to the amount of gold that he owns. So when he buys that item from you he isnt adding any extra gold into the economy he is just transferring it from his gold pouch to yours. Instead of gold being added into the economy the amount of gold out there stays the same for that individual transaction and in fact the amount of gold out there would go down over time if there were no other sources of gold being added into the economy.

As for the inflation its just basic economics. The more currency in circulation the less that currency is worth compared to an item at a stagnant global value.

But this is a false economy anyway. All MMO's have this, because just running around "creates" money. If this was a real issue then grinding mobs and picking up their gold would break the economy because there is magic money just pouring into the world constantly. In fact, I bet the amount of money coming from non-trials casuals from just playing the game vastly out weighs the amount of cash being 'injected' by undaunted drops.

Yep, this is a way better solution.

code65536 wrote: »

This will avoid directly injecting gold into the economy, provide trial-runners with valuable items that they can either directly use or sell on the player market, and add a little something to the already-constrained supply side of the economy.

Very nice idea. As of now the supply side of the economy is rather bad in my opinion since the consumables' prices are quite high which makes new players' lives unnecessarily difficult and this would be able to hit two birds with one stone.

Yes. To all of this.

Really like the idea. The only minor problem I see is properly tuning things to be "1k worth" of alchemy drops or whatevern because that value will change depending on the economy.

code65536 wrote: »

First, I very much appreciate ZOS taking the time to consider the needs of the endgame trials community and attempting to offset the loss of sellable BoE loot.

But a direct gold injection is not a good solution.

1. The way trial-runners earn gold right now is by selling BoE loot. This is gold that comes from other players and the transaction costs of some of these exchanges (listing fees and COD fees) act as gold sinks. No gold is being added to the economy under the current model. A gold source this large (@asneakybanana did some back-of-the-envelope calculations here) can substantially upset the balance in the economy.
2. It does nothing to address the biggest cost of trial running, and that's potions. With the changes coming in One Tamriel (no more uncontested Hollow City farm loops), the reagent supply will only get tighter, so putting more gold into the hands of some of the biggest consumers will serve to further fuel the already out-of-control inflation in the alchemy market.

But there is a fairly easy way to fix this: Instead of Undaunted Plunder being an item that we vendor for 1K gold, turn the Undaunted Plunder into a key that opens an Undaunted Supplies chest in the lobby of each trial. The chest will yield a repair kit, an assortment of alchemical reagents, and a chance at a gold improvement mat. Make it so that the average value of each chest opening is around 1K. This will avoid directly injecting gold into the economy, provide trial-runners with valuable items that they can either directly use or sell on the player market, and add a little something to the already-constrained supply side of the economy. And it's a simple, tidy concept: we're giving the Undaunted the loot we plundered, and they give us useful stuff in return.

(And, yes, I do like smaller rewards being given at each boss, as opposed to consolidating it all into one big reward at the final boss; the former helps groups that are still learning and progressing through the content, and that's important for cultivating the long-term health of the trial-running community.)

(Alternatively, if key-and-lobby-supply-chest cannot be implemented quickly enough, make each boss drop an Undaunted Supplies satchel with the same sort of loot. It's not quite as immersion-friendly, but most trial runners don't care too much about that in the first place.)

Gold injection is definitely the wrong route to go. It's a temporary "fix" for the gold sink issue in trials. Your idea of a supply chest is great but the contents you suggested are a bit lacking. It's basically another hireling roll, but for all crafting trades. The rewards should remain BOE gear, and ZOS should reintroduce gold jewelry for HM trials that isn't BOP (overland sets). The most difficult content to complete should always be rewarded with the most difficult gear to acquire. Mats are great, but do you really think vet HM trials should reward mats of all things?