We really need to address heavy armor

Dracane · September 2016

To me, the true selling point of heavy armor is rapid mending

50% more ressources on heavy attacks is so unbalanced. I see what kind of playstyle they want to achieve with that. But heavy armor passives are just too good.

And Wrath is the reason, why heavy armor could be considered superior to light armor in certain situations when it comes to damage.
However, this doesn't mean that heavy armor needs nerfs. Light armor simply needs buffs. Also, heavy armor offers many very tempting sets. Light armor does not

Dracane · September 2016

Ffastyl wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

I probably shouldn't respond to such a post, but gotta jump in. We do use data and compare that to player feedback and our own experiences on live. Players always assume that what they see is what everyone is doing... that is a very dangerous assumption. Let's take a more detailed look at question #7... (even though its trolly)

"What hard data did you use when buffing heavy armor? If your data is reliable and / or your ability to interpret this data is satisfactory, why are HA sets like Black Rose so popular among damage dealers?"

Note: I'm only using NA PC data for a quick example... I don't have the time to wait for the report to parse all 180+ GB of data for all platforms.

Current armor bias of ALL players on NA PC:

Current armor bias of ONLY PVP players on NA PC

.. and now just for fun, here's the bias of all PVP players on NA PC with 501+ CP.

So in general, heavy isn't as popular as everyone thinks in PVP, especially at the higher end CP. The changes to heavy armor have swung things much closer to what I would call overall parity than ever before. There is still room for improvement however, especially when we start digging into things like class armor bias breakdowns. (i.e. - DK generally prefer heavy over all other armor types...etc)

I can't really believe in these datas. Either US is so so so so much different than EU (which I don't believe) or it's just a mistake.
Why would anyone wear light armor ? There is no real point in using light armor. I don't know anyone who doesn't wear heavy armor or medium armor. More sustain, more passive resistance, more damage even actually. Only light armor users are new players in pvp and they are free AP.

psychotic13 · September 2016

Dracane wrote: »

To me, the true selling point of heavy armor is rapid mending 50% more ressources on heavy attacks is so unbalanced. I see what kind of playstyle they want to achieve with that. But heavy armor passives are just too good.

And Wrath is the reason, why heavy armor could be considered superior to light armor in certain situations when it comes to damage.
However, this doesn't mean that heavy armor needs nerfs. Light armor simply needs buffs. Also, heavy armor offers many very tempting sets. Light armor does not

This pretty much, light armor doesn't offer enough benefit for running with low resists.

Like I've already said, light armor passives for cost reduction and regen are separate passives, but for medium they are one passive for both. This allows medium armor to have more benefit, they get the passive that gives crit per piece of medium armor while light armor gets screwed into having the 5pc bonus as 10% crit.

Jar_Ek · September 2016

Gotta admit I don't understand why light armour doesn't mirror medium more closely, but w/o dodge roll / sprint but with spell pen.

Rex-Umbra · September 2016

Change one of the stam bonuses to Magicka so BR is more of a hybrid set.

mtwiggz · September 2016

Those numbers must be skewed. As @ZOS_RichLambert uses heavy armor and doesn't want it to be nerfed either.

Toc de Malsvi · September 2016

Ffastyl wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

I probably shouldn't respond to such a post, but gotta jump in. We do use data and compare that to player feedback and our own experiences on live. Players always assume that what they see is what everyone is doing... that is a very dangerous assumption. Let's take a more detailed look at question #7... (even though its trolly)

"What hard data did you use when buffing heavy armor? If your data is reliable and / or your ability to interpret this data is satisfactory, why are HA sets like Black Rose so popular among damage dealers?"

Note: I'm only using NA PC data for a quick example... I don't have the time to wait for the report to parse all 180+ GB of data for all platforms.

Current armor bias of ALL players on NA PC:

Current armor bias of ONLY PVP players on NA PC

.. and now just for fun, here's the bias of all PVP players on NA PC with 501+ CP.

So in general, heavy isn't as popular as everyone thinks in PVP, especially at the higher end CP. The changes to heavy armor have swung things much closer to what I would call overall parity than ever before. There is still room for improvement however, especially when we start digging into things like class armor bias breakdowns. (i.e. - DK generally prefer heavy over all other armor types...etc)

Very interesting!

Could you post the link from which this quote was drawn from? Also does Lambert expand upon the time table for this data, when it was captured and so on? The numbers on 501+ CP players suggest that light armor is the predominate top level armor, which runs counter to the "stam rules the world" complaints of so many on these forums.

Sharee · September 2016

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3363913/#Comment_3363913

For some reason it did not appear on the dev tracker.

Strider_Roshin · September 2016

Ffastyl wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

I probably shouldn't respond to such a post, but gotta jump in. We do use data and compare that to player feedback and our own experiences on live. Players always assume that what they see is what everyone is doing... that is a very dangerous assumption. Let's take a more detailed look at question #7... (even though its trolly)

"What hard data did you use when buffing heavy armor? If your data is reliable and / or your ability to interpret this data is satisfactory, why are HA sets like Black Rose so popular among damage dealers?"

Note: I'm only using NA PC data for a quick example... I don't have the time to wait for the report to parse all 180+ GB of data for all platforms.

Current armor bias of ALL players on NA PC:

Current armor bias of ONLY PVP players on NA PC

.. and now just for fun, here's the bias of all PVP players on NA PC with 501+ CP.

So in general, heavy isn't as popular as everyone thinks in PVP, especially at the higher end CP. The changes to heavy armor have swung things much closer to what I would call overall parity than ever before. There is still room for improvement however, especially when we start digging into things like class armor bias breakdowns. (i.e. - DK generally prefer heavy over all other armor types...etc)

Oh we're balancing based on usage now? I guess my maelstrom weapons need a buff then

Strider_Roshin · September 2016

Jar_Ek wrote: »

Gotta admit I don't understand why light armour doesn't mirror medium more closely, but w/o dodge roll / sprint but with spell pen.

I would happily give up that 12% weapon damage increase for the penetration that light armor gets.

Mustard · September 2016

Black rose should be 20% and shuffle should be 10%.

Shields should be 10 / 14 seconds

Remove battle spirit from impacting GDB.

Then lets see how the balance looks after that.

@Wrobel @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_RichLambert

Dracane · September 2016

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Ffastyl wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

I probably shouldn't respond to such a post, but gotta jump in. We do use data and compare that to player feedback and our own experiences on live. Players always assume that what they see is what everyone is doing... that is a very dangerous assumption. Let's take a more detailed look at question #7... (even though its trolly)

"What hard data did you use when buffing heavy armor? If your data is reliable and / or your ability to interpret this data is satisfactory, why are HA sets like Black Rose so popular among damage dealers?"

Note: I'm only using NA PC data for a quick example... I don't have the time to wait for the report to parse all 180+ GB of data for all platforms.

Current armor bias of ALL players on NA PC:

Current armor bias of ONLY PVP players on NA PC

.. and now just for fun, here's the bias of all PVP players on NA PC with 501+ CP.

So in general, heavy isn't as popular as everyone thinks in PVP, especially at the higher end CP. The changes to heavy armor have swung things much closer to what I would call overall parity than ever before. There is still room for improvement however, especially when we start digging into things like class armor bias breakdowns. (i.e. - DK generally prefer heavy over all other armor types...etc)

Oh we're balancing based on usage now? I guess my maelstrom weapons need a buff then

This. First, they shouldn't only look at US, as I am sure, EU will result in much different numbers.
And everyone I am talking to, tells me that heavy armor is the way to go and they laugh at me for using light armor.

Heavy armor is superior and light armor deserves a buff to be equal. Why do you accept the lowest resistance, without getting more sustain or damage than heavy armor ?

Mustard · September 2016

Dracane wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Ffastyl wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

I probably shouldn't respond to such a post, but gotta jump in. We do use data and compare that to player feedback and our own experiences on live. Players always assume that what they see is what everyone is doing... that is a very dangerous assumption. Let's take a more detailed look at question #7... (even though its trolly)

"What hard data did you use when buffing heavy armor? If your data is reliable and / or your ability to interpret this data is satisfactory, why are HA sets like Black Rose so popular among damage dealers?"

Note: I'm only using NA PC data for a quick example... I don't have the time to wait for the report to parse all 180+ GB of data for all platforms.

Current armor bias of ALL players on NA PC:

Current armor bias of ONLY PVP players on NA PC

.. and now just for fun, here's the bias of all PVP players on NA PC with 501+ CP.

So in general, heavy isn't as popular as everyone thinks in PVP, especially at the higher end CP. The changes to heavy armor have swung things much closer to what I would call overall parity than ever before. There is still room for improvement however, especially when we start digging into things like class armor bias breakdowns. (i.e. - DK generally prefer heavy over all other armor types...etc)

Oh we're balancing based on usage now? I guess my maelstrom weapons need a buff then

This. First, they shouldn't only look at US, as I am sure, EU will result in much different numbers.
And everyone I am talking to, tells me that heavy armor is the way to go and they laugh at me for using light armor.

Heavy armor is superior and light armor deserves a buff to be equal. Why do you accept the lowest resistance, without getting more sustain or damage than heavy armor ?

It's only black rose not heavy armor in general

Dracane · September 2016

Mustard wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Ffastyl wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

I probably shouldn't respond to such a post, but gotta jump in. We do use data and compare that to player feedback and our own experiences on live. Players always assume that what they see is what everyone is doing... that is a very dangerous assumption. Let's take a more detailed look at question #7... (even though its trolly)

"What hard data did you use when buffing heavy armor? If your data is reliable and / or your ability to interpret this data is satisfactory, why are HA sets like Black Rose so popular among damage dealers?"

Note: I'm only using NA PC data for a quick example... I don't have the time to wait for the report to parse all 180+ GB of data for all platforms.

Current armor bias of ALL players on NA PC:

Current armor bias of ONLY PVP players on NA PC

.. and now just for fun, here's the bias of all PVP players on NA PC with 501+ CP.

So in general, heavy isn't as popular as everyone thinks in PVP, especially at the higher end CP. The changes to heavy armor have swung things much closer to what I would call overall parity than ever before. There is still room for improvement however, especially when we start digging into things like class armor bias breakdowns. (i.e. - DK generally prefer heavy over all other armor types...etc)

Oh we're balancing based on usage now? I guess my maelstrom weapons need a buff then

This. First, they shouldn't only look at US, as I am sure, EU will result in much different numbers.
And everyone I am talking to, tells me that heavy armor is the way to go and they laugh at me for using light armor.

Heavy armor is superior and light armor deserves a buff to be equal. Why do you accept the lowest resistance, without getting more sustain or damage than heavy armor ?

It's only black rose not heavy armor in general

Black rose is not a problem at all. I never understood the hype for this.
It's the fact, that heavy armor passives offer more sustain than light armor and medium armor and also more damage than light armor vs enemies with damage shields or low resistance.

Consitution not only grants 40 more magicka recovery every 2 seconds than evocation, but also stamina recovery on top. And don't forget about rapid mending, which is very strong when used with a staff.

Light armor needs to be looked at.

Erock25 · September 2016

Heavy armor is fine. Magicka itself is a little under powered now and that's what is causing people to move away from light armor. If you think heavy is better than medium for all stamina roles, you're ignoring the actual facts and just letting preconceived bias affect your judgement.

Dracane · September 2016

To give you an idea. Light armor should be treated like medium armor and get its recovery and cost reduction passive fused into 1.

Spell warding is useless. Light armor users either keep a shield up all the time or die. So it should instead increase the strenght of shields.
The former cost reduction passive should then grant some spell damage per piece of light armor.

Not too much. So that 5 pieces equal 1 spell damage trait from armor. Which is 129 or so I believe.

Faulgor · September 2016

TBH I never quite understood what they were trying to do with the different armor types.
Judging by the passives, light armor was supposed to be for magicka builds and medium for stamina, but then why segregate them based on resistance? The light/medium/heavy resistance gradient only made sense for heavy, which was supposed to be used for tanking.

So either light and medium should offer the same resistances and passives, so we have "magicka dps armor", "stamina dps armor" and "tanking armor", or the armor types should keep their resistance hierarchy and instead offer something for every build.

E.g., light armor could offer better recoveries, medium better damage/crit values and heavy armor a bonus to attribute magnitudes.
Could be a nightmare to balance, but over the long run would be the most interesting IMO.

Solariken · September 2016

DHale wrote: »

There has not been one nerf in this game in 2.4 years that have made anything better. Can you name one.

Malubeth.

Natas013 · September 2016

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Then nerf black rose.

Do not nerf the skill line, nerf the associated sets. OR GIVE US BACK BRACING FOR PETE SAKE.

You do realise when they removed bracing they buffed the hell out of Fortress in the S+B skill line? The biggest kick in the nads was when they moved the block cost reduction in the CP tree.

OT: Heavy armor is where it should be. Honestly, Black Rose is probably your problem, not HA in general. With BR I get better sustain than when I'm in light or medium, which doesn't seem right.
Light should keep the spell pen passive, but also have an added 6% spell damage or something as well. I literally wear HA on my magicka characters because I don't see much difference at all in damage.

Buffed the hell out of Fortress?

...Buffed the hell out of -fortress-?

They buffed it by six percent to a partially recoup what we lost with bracing. Not enough. And oddly enough, no, it wasn't a kick in the nuts with the CP switch. My defenses are better than ever because of that change. I dont care about S&S's offensive capability, that's not it's bloody purpose. (It is worth noting, that my perspective is largely from PVE. But It allways boggles the mind how these people basicly want to bankrupt this game for a section of it that will never, and -can never-, be ballanced.)

And then we see people crying for a nerf on constitution, which only recently even became relevent. If anything, the massive influx of magicka toons wearing heavy armor means Light armor needs buffed, a thing that has been called for, by both PVP/PVE'ers alike.

Buffs, not nerfs.

+1

#sorclivesmatter

olsborg · September 2016

Heavy armor is so much stronger then light or medium. Balance pls.

STEVIL · September 2016

Dr_Talos wrote: »

Wake up! It's already domintating in pvp. Every second meta-idiot in Cyrodiil wearing fckng Black Rose set not depending is he magicka or stamina user. Magplar? Wear Black Rose! Stam sorc? Stam DK? Wear Black Rose! Heavy armor and this set especially is current pvp-meta, because of it's versatility. Though in next update there are lot of sets whis give you penetration and 2H ulti that ignore all resistances. I hope this will help.

So just as q question - is the issue here black rose or heavy armor in general?

if half the pvp are wearing ONE SET that points to it being a set imbalance not a imbalance with the armor type.

IF HA were balanced AND the role(s) HA serves also equally represented we would expect every third to be wearing HA, but not nec one set.

Rilmarshim · September 2016

STEVIL wrote: »

Dr_Talos wrote: »

Wake up! It's already domintating in pvp. Every second meta-idiot in Cyrodiil wearing fckng Black Rose set not depending is he magicka or stamina user. Magplar? Wear Black Rose! Stam sorc? Stam DK? Wear Black Rose! Heavy armor and this set especially is current pvp-meta, because of it's versatility. Though in next update there are lot of sets whis give you penetration and 2H ulti that ignore all resistances. I hope this will help.

So just as q question - is the issue here black rose or heavy armor in general?

if half the pvp are wearing ONE SET that points to it being a set imbalance not a imbalance with the armor type.

IF HA were balanced AND the role(s) HA serves also equally represented we would expect every third to be wearing HA, but not nec one set.

As I said already heavy armor is imbalanced in generally - Black Rose set is just an easy mode. You can do nasty things with other heavy sets.

nk125x · September 2016

Ffastyl wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

I probably shouldn't respond to such a post, but gotta jump in. We do use data and compare that to player feedback and our own experiences on live. Players always assume that what they see is what everyone is doing... that is a very dangerous assumption. Let's take a more detailed look at question #7... (even though its trolly)

"What hard data did you use when buffing heavy armor? If your data is reliable and / or your ability to interpret this data is satisfactory, why are HA sets like Black Rose so popular among damage dealers?"

Note: I'm only using NA PC data for a quick example... I don't have the time to wait for the report to parse all 180+ GB of data for all platforms.

Current armor bias of ALL players on NA PC:

Current armor bias of ONLY PVP players on NA PC

.. and now just for fun, here's the bias of all PVP players on NA PC with 501+ CP.

So in general, heavy isn't as popular as everyone thinks in PVP, especially at the higher end CP. The changes to heavy armor have swung things much closer to what I would call overall parity than ever before. There is still room for improvement however, especially when we start digging into things like class armor bias breakdowns. (i.e. - DK generally prefer heavy over all other armor types...etc)

ZOS_RichLambert,

I would like to see these numbers broke down for regular pvp users. I woulld like to bet the numbers for light and medium users are skewed by the occasional user going to cyrodiil to get vigor.

My experience of the pvp guilds I run with, heavy armour is used 90% of the time.

xellink · September 2016

How to beat reactive armor
1 Do NOT CC THEM
2 you can ignore them and kill their dps first if you are in small scale battle. The ha user is a red herring
3 if you still insist on killing them first, wait till their damage mitigation skills or ultimate run out. You can do this by initiating battle or let them initiate battle then force a planned reset. On reset, they should be beatable.

How to beat black rose armor
1 you start off with an advantage, if u lose you pretty much suck.
2 if they trigger Attack. Usually they have wrath on and jump from target to target. They will start at an advantage, disengage with cc and reset battle
3. Wait till wrath runs out (6s). Re-engage with advantage
4. In small scale battles. Without wrath it's possible to engage other dps first. But this needs coordination with your team mates to Attack the ha user last.

L2P

Rilmarshim · September 2016

Reactive templar detected

Dracane · September 2016

xellink wrote: »

How to beat reactive armor
1 Do NOT CC THEM
2 you can ignore them and kill their dps first if you are in small scale battle. The ha user is a red herring
3 if you still insist on killing them first, wait till their damage mitigation skills or ultimate run out. You can do this by initiating battle or let them initiate battle then force a planned reset. On reset, they should be beatable.

How to beat black rose armor
1 you start off with an advantage, if u lose you pretty much suck.
2 if they trigger Attack. Usually they have wrath on and jump from target to target. They will start at an advantage, disengage with cc and reset battle
3. Wait till wrath runs out (6s). Re-engage with advantage
4. In small scale battles. Without wrath it's possible to engage other dps first. But this needs coordination with your team mates to Attack the ha user last.

L2P

No, just no

this makes no sense at all.
You indirectly insult everyone wearing heavy armor and treat them like they can't do anything against attackers.

Please keep in mind, that they can have other sets combined with black rose and reactive and wrath alone does not change anything.

Alucardo · September 2016

Use poisons.

You're welcome everyone.

xellink · September 2016

Dracane wrote: »

xellink wrote: »

How to beat reactive armor
1 Do NOT CC THEM
2 you can ignore them and kill their dps first if you are in small scale battle. The ha user is a red herring
3 if you still insist on killing them first, wait till their damage mitigation skills or ultimate run out. You can do this by initiating battle or let them initiate battle then force a planned reset. On reset, they should be beatable.

How to beat black rose armor
1 you start off with an advantage, if u lose you pretty much suck.
2 if they trigger Attack. Usually they have wrath on and jump from target to target. They will start at an advantage, disengage with cc and reset battle
3. Wait till wrath runs out (6s). Re-engage with advantage
4. In small scale battles. Without wrath it's possible to engage other dps first. But this needs coordination with your team mates to Attack the ha user last.

L2P

No, just no this makes no sense at all.
You indirectly insult everyone wearing heavy armor and treat them like they can't do anything against attackers.

Please keep in mind, that they can have other sets combined with black rose and reactive and wrath alone does not change anything.

Depends on the context. Are you talking about small scale. 1v1 or large scale? Black rose and reactive excels in large scale but my post didn't mention large scale. I really need a drawing to explain but I'm too lazy hahaha

Dracane · September 2016

@Alucardo

What poison would you suggest ?

blabafat · September 2016

The wrath passive(damage) , COMBINED with the tankiness (more health, resistances, healing), COMBINED with the constitution passive (resource sustain) is what makes heavy armor way stronger. It has everything. It has very insignificant drawbacks, and having the best of all areas of the game makes it overperform.

Black Rose on top of that? Health, Stam, Stam (more damage for stamina). 150 Spell damage and weapon damage, buff to constitution....