ZOS Claims to Use "Hard Data" for Balancing

IxskullzxI · September 2016

This is the best post I've read on here. 10/10 agree with everything. Complete lack of competence at ZoS.

MisterBigglesworth · September 2016

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

There's a Star Trek next generation joke just begging to be a meme but would be most inappropriate .

Too many to choose from.
I'll just go with this for now:

GrumpyDuckling · September 2016

I would very much like to hear a ZOS response to this thread.

FriedEggSandwich · September 2016

* Edited to remove overly cynical and unhelpful comment that I regretted posting*

TheValkyn · September 2016

hard data...

Arnorien16 · September 2016

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

I wonder when the patch Elder Stamina Online is coming out.

Its the sequel of Elder Magika Online .... perhaps you are too young to remember.

Also 70% of the list comprises of things that was implemented and is not looked into yet, which makes it stuff that was done without Hard Data.

SanTii.92 · September 2016

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

SanTii.92 wrote: »

Current state of game's balance is not nearly as close as catastrophic as you say.

Yes, I agree on some of your points, and tuning is definitely needed but balance is as good as ever was.

Actually the current state of the game's balance, does near catastrophic failures. I remind you of the other MMOs communities that was in denial going through this. Phase of catastrophic balancing issues.

Rift
DCUO
D&D Neverwinter
GW2
NA/EU's BDO
NA/EU's BnS

Those are just the MMO I witness go down this road. Which ended in ALL of them losing their communities. The servers in those MMOs are barely being kept up and running off of huge Pay to Win micro transactions models. Let me tell you something. I watched all of these MMO lose their communities, just over huge balancing issues. You know the ones that are getting worst and worst by the patch in ESO.

I am willing to bet that anyone with extensive MMO experience as a player will tell you. If ZOS do not correct it's balance issues soon. And allow the balancing issues to get worst. It will also become a MMO who's servers are only being kept alive by. Huge Pay to Win micro transaction models. Because of the lack of players. That's best case scenario. Worst case is that, they just pull the plug.

But also every major successful game has it's vocal minority claiming how disastrous the balance is. LoL, WoW or Dota2 of which I can speak of have always and will always have 'broken op issues'.

That doesn't mean those games are unplayablewhatsoever. And talking particularly about Eso, if you can go through the circle jerk about how behind magicka builds are, a quick hop on the pts will show how each class/spec is rather competitive and relatively close to each other. Even mdk or mnb can be quite successful on the right hands against the very best players.

So yes, there are issues, that's undeniable. But truth is so far away from the general sentiment of the forums.

ZOS_RichLambert · September 2016

I probably shouldn't respond to such a post, but gotta jump in. We do use data and compare that to player feedback and our own experiences on live. Players always assume that what they see is what everyone is doing... that is a very dangerous assumption. Let's take a more detailed look at question #7... (even though its trolly)

"What hard data did you use when buffing heavy armor? If your data is reliable and / or your ability to interpret this data is satisfactory, why are HA sets like Black Rose so popular among damage dealers?"

Note: I'm only using NA PC data for a quick example... I don't have the time to wait for the report to parse all 180+ GB of data for all platforms.

Current armor bias of ALL players on NA PC:

Current armor bias of ONLY PVP players on NA PC

.. and now just for fun, here's the bias of all PVP players on NA PC with 501+ CP.

So in general, heavy isn't as popular as everyone thinks in PVP, especially at the higher end CP. The changes to heavy armor have swung things much closer to what I would call overall parity than ever before. There is still room for improvement however, especially when we start digging into things like class armor bias breakdowns. (i.e. - DK generally prefer heavy over all other armor types...etc)

RAGUNAnoOne · September 2016

I think Rich edited your post...

Erock25 · September 2016

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

I probably shouldn't respond to such a post, but gotta jump in. We do use data and compare that to player feedback and our own experiences on live. Players always assume that what they see is what everyone is doing... that is a very dangerous assumption. Let's take a more detailed look at question #7... (even though its trolly)

"What hard data did you use when buffing heavy armor? If your data is reliable and / or your ability to interpret this data is satisfactory, why are HA sets like Black Rose so popular among damage dealers?"

Note: I'm only using NA PC data for a quick example... I don't have the time to wait for the report to parse all 180+ GB of data for all platforms.

Current armor bias of ALL players on NA PC:

Current armor bias of ONLY PVP players on NA PC

.. and now just for fun, here's the bias of all PVP players on NA PC with 501+ CP.

So in general, heavy isn't as popular as everyone thinks in PVP, especially at the higher end CP. The changes to heavy armor have swung things much closer to what I would call overall parity than ever before. There is still room for improvement however, especially when we start digging into things like class armor bias breakdowns. (i.e. - DK generally prefer heavy over all other armor types...etc)

Cheers for this @ZOS_RichLambert. It's funny that a small circle of dueling players all want to use one type of armor so they assume that everyone is using it as well. I do wonder what constitutes an ONLY PVP player. I spend probably 75% of my time in PVP. Am I PVP only?

RAGUNAnoOne · September 2016

@ZOS_RichLambert what does your data say on the DPS and sustain of stamina VS magicka user in trial groups IE the top geared? what does it say on burst damage and kill to killed ratio of stamina and magicka classes in PvP especially in mag VS stam situations?

anitajoneb17_ESO · September 2016

RAGUNAnoOne wrote: »

I think Rich edited your post...

Nope, he didn't. It's a small bug on these forums. Happens when a dev answers a post and is linked to in "dev tracker" section.

Ch4mpTW · September 2016

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

I probably shouldn't respond to such a post, but gotta jump in. We do use data and compare that to player feedback and our own experiences on live. Players always assume that what they see is what everyone is doing... that is a very dangerous assumption. Let's take a more detailed look at question #7... (even though its trolly)

"What hard data did you use when buffing heavy armor? If your data is reliable and / or your ability to interpret this data is satisfactory, why are HA sets like Black Rose so popular among damage dealers?"

Note: I'm only using NA PC data for a quick example... I don't have the time to wait for the report to parse all 180+ GB of data for all platforms.

Current armor bias of ALL players on NA PC:

Current armor bias of ONLY PVP players on NA PC

.. and now just for fun, here's the bias of all PVP players on NA PC with 501+ CP.

So in general, heavy isn't as popular as everyone thinks in PVP, especially at the higher end CP. The changes to heavy armor have swung things much closer to what I would call overall parity than ever before. There is still room for improvement however, especially when we start digging into things like class armor bias breakdowns. (i.e. - DK generally prefer heavy over all other armor types...etc)

No offense, but where are the date stamps of that graph? Those numbers could've been pulled at any given time. Also, that graph isn't really explaining anything in detail; showing inconsistency.

Also, I highly doubt that most people in Cyrodiil are wearing light armor across the board with 501+ CP in PC-NA. I doubt that strongly. Especially when medium armor players are leading in PVP in PC-NA. Not to mention, there are more stamina users than magicka users (which I think we both know). So you're trying to get me to believe that in knowing that there are more stamina users than magicka users, that light armor is leading currently across the board? Bruh... C'mon now, bruh. @ZOS_RichLambert

Waseem · September 2016

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

I probably shouldn't respond to such a post, but gotta jump in. We do use data and compare that to player feedback and our own experiences on live. Players always assume that what they see is what everyone is doing... that is a very dangerous assumption. Let's take a more detailed look at question #7... (even though its trolly)

"What hard data did you use when buffing heavy armor? If your data is reliable and / or your ability to interpret this data is satisfactory, why are HA sets like Black Rose so popular among damage dealers?"

Note: I'm only using NA PC data for a quick example... I don't have the time to wait for the report to parse all 180+ GB of data for all platforms.

Current armor bias of ALL players on NA PC:

Current armor bias of ONLY PVP players on NA PC

.. and now just for fun, here's the bias of all PVP players on NA PC with 501+ CP.

So in general, heavy isn't as popular as everyone thinks in PVP, especially at the higher end CP. The changes to heavy armor have swung things much closer to what I would call overall parity than ever before. There is still room for improvement however, especially when we start digging into things like class armor bias breakdowns. (i.e. - DK generally prefer heavy over all other armor types...etc)

No offense, but where are the date stamps of that graph? Those numbers could've been pulled at any given time. Also, that graph isn't really explaining anything in detail; showing inconsistency.

Also, I highly doubt that most people in Cyrodiil are wearing light armor across the board with 501+ CP in PC-NA. I doubt that strongly. Especially when medium armor players are leading in PVP in PC-NA. Not to mention, there are more stamina users than magicka users (which I think we both know). So you're trying to get me to believe that in knowing that there are more stamina users than magicka users, that light armor is leading currently across the board? Bruh... C'mon now, bruh. @ZOS_RichLambert

I think he used data since beta not last month XD

Junipus · September 2016

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

I probably shouldn't respond to such a post, but gotta jump in. We do use data and compare that to player feedback and our own experiences on live. Players always assume that what they see is what everyone is doing... that is a very dangerous assumption. Let's take a more detailed look at question #7... (even though its trolly)

"What hard data did you use when buffing heavy armor? If your data is reliable and / or your ability to interpret this data is satisfactory, why are HA sets like Black Rose so popular among damage dealers?"

Note: I'm only using NA PC data for a quick example... I don't have the time to wait for the report to parse all 180+ GB of data for all platforms.

Current armor bias of ALL players on NA PC:

Current armor bias of ONLY PVP players on NA PC

.. and now just for fun, here's the bias of all PVP players on NA PC with 501+ CP.

So in general, heavy isn't as popular as everyone thinks in PVP, especially at the higher end CP. The changes to heavy armor have swung things much closer to what I would call overall parity than ever before. There is still room for improvement however, especially when we start digging into things like class armor bias breakdowns. (i.e. - DK generally prefer heavy over all other armor types...etc)

@ZOS_RichLambert If you actually left some intern to parse the vast amount of data you had for all platforms, broke it down as you've done above and then posted on a locked sticky thread here it'd go a massive way towards either dispelling or reinforcing peoples beliefs on balancing in this game and close a lot of mouths. Since there'd be no confidential data from either a data protection or competitor view the only obstacle is time (hence some eager interns).

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RAGUNAnoOne · September 2016

Waseem wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

I probably shouldn't respond to such a post, but gotta jump in. We do use data and compare that to player feedback and our own experiences on live. Players always assume that what they see is what everyone is doing... that is a very dangerous assumption. Let's take a more detailed look at question #7... (even though its trolly)

"What hard data did you use when buffing heavy armor? If your data is reliable and / or your ability to interpret this data is satisfactory, why are HA sets like Black Rose so popular among damage dealers?"

Note: I'm only using NA PC data for a quick example... I don't have the time to wait for the report to parse all 180+ GB of data for all platforms.

Current armor bias of ALL players on NA PC:

Current armor bias of ONLY PVP players on NA PC

.. and now just for fun, here's the bias of all PVP players on NA PC with 501+ CP.

So in general, heavy isn't as popular as everyone thinks in PVP, especially at the higher end CP. The changes to heavy armor have swung things much closer to what I would call overall parity than ever before. There is still room for improvement however, especially when we start digging into things like class armor bias breakdowns. (i.e. - DK generally prefer heavy over all other armor types...etc)

No offense, but where are the date stamps of that graph? Those numbers could've been pulled at any given time. Also, that graph isn't really explaining anything in detail; showing inconsistency.

Also, I highly doubt that most people in Cyrodiil are wearing light armor across the board with 501+ CP in PC-NA. I doubt that strongly. Especially when medium armor players are leading in PVP in PC-NA. Not to mention, there are more stamina users than magicka users (which I think we both know). So you're trying to get me to believe that in knowing that there are more stamina users than magicka users, that light armor is leading currently across the board? Bruh... C'mon now, bruh. @ZOS_RichLambert

I think he used data since beta not last month XD

Also I think it looks at data from inactive or DLC hopping players that zenimax caters too.

anitajoneb17_ESO · September 2016

Thank you very much Rich for taking the time to share some info, quantitative data and details with us ! That's very interesting.

runagate · September 2016

I'm stunned that that many high-CP players are using heavy armor.
With 12 characters I'm trying to picture which ones that are logging in for Hireling mails but not actually getting played are wearing heavy armor atm on my account. None, I think. Heavy is so expensive to make legendary at high level you have to be pretty serious about using it.

anitajoneb17_ESO · September 2016

Erock25 wrote: »

Cheers for this @ZOS_RichLambert. It's funny that a small circle of dueling players all want to use one type of armor so they assume that everyone is using it as well. I do wonder what constitutes an ONLY PVP player. I spend probably 75% of my time in PVP. Am I PVP only?

I assume "PvP only" translates with "while in PvP zones". So you'd be registered in that graph for what you're wearing during your 75% of playtime which are in PvP.

Ch4mpTW · September 2016

Waseem wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

I probably shouldn't respond to such a post, but gotta jump in. We do use data and compare that to player feedback and our own experiences on live. Players always assume that what they see is what everyone is doing... that is a very dangerous assumption. Let's take a more detailed look at question #7... (even though its trolly)

"What hard data did you use when buffing heavy armor? If your data is reliable and / or your ability to interpret this data is satisfactory, why are HA sets like Black Rose so popular among damage dealers?"

Note: I'm only using NA PC data for a quick example... I don't have the time to wait for the report to parse all 180+ GB of data for all platforms.

Current armor bias of ALL players on NA PC:

Current armor bias of ONLY PVP players on NA PC

.. and now just for fun, here's the bias of all PVP players on NA PC with 501+ CP.

So in general, heavy isn't as popular as everyone thinks in PVP, especially at the higher end CP. The changes to heavy armor have swung things much closer to what I would call overall parity than ever before. There is still room for improvement however, especially when we start digging into things like class armor bias breakdowns. (i.e. - DK generally prefer heavy over all other armor types...etc)

No offense, but where are the date stamps of that graph? Those numbers could've been pulled at any given time. Also, that graph isn't really explaining anything in detail; showing inconsistency.

Also, I highly doubt that most people in Cyrodiil are wearing light armor across the board with 501+ CP in PC-NA. I doubt that strongly. Especially when medium armor players are leading in PVP in PC-NA. Not to mention, there are more stamina users than magicka users (which I think we both know). So you're trying to get me to believe that in knowing that there are more stamina users than magicka users, that light armor is leading currently across the board? Bruh... C'mon now, bruh. @ZOS_RichLambert

I think he used data since beta not last month XD

It has to be. I play on 2 platforms, and have seen way more stamina users than magicka users. Way more. And even then with magicka users, I see way more people wearing AND suggesting heavy armor usage than light armor usage. Not to mention the numerous amount of discussions both in-game and here on the forums that support the claim(s) of stamina builds outperforming magicka builds (and being used more). So my question is, when was this data pulled? Where are the time stamps?

When supplying statistics of groups, it's very important to supply date stamps. That way the reviewer can see when the data was collected/compiled, and judge for themselves whether or not the said data in question holds relevance. The graph provided lacks so much detail, it's somewhat humorous.

I can be silly and say, "Bruh." frequently — but dude... Math is my waifu. It's what I excel at, which is why I went with programming as a child. I'm a grown man now, and still adore it and do it for a living. So when I see things involving math of some sort, I go bananas. Especially statistics.

W0lf_z13 · September 2016

majority of the people i know that pvp wear heavy in cyrodiil because of the buffs it got ... myself included

anitajoneb17_ESO · September 2016

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

It has to be. I play on 2 platforms, and have seen way more stamina users than magicka users. Way more. And even then with magicka users, I see way more people wearing AND suggesting heavy armor usage than light armor usage. Not to mention the numerous amount of discussions both in-game and here on the forums that support the claim(s) of stamina builds outperforming magicka builds (and being used more). So my question is, when was this data pulled? Where are the time stamps?

When supplying statistics of groups, it's very important to supply date stamps. That way the reviewer can see when the data was collected/compiled, and judge for themselves whether or not the said data in question holds relevance. The graph provided lacks so much detail, it's somewhat humorous.

I can be silly and say, "Bruh." frequently — but dude... Math is my waifu. It's what I excel at, which is why I went with programming as a child. I'm a grown man now, and still adore it and do it for a living. So when I see things involving math of some sort, I go bananas. Especially statistics.

Errr... Bruh....
You're aware Rich was just sharing some insight with us ? Not submitting a study to the "Science" board for review ? Because, I'm sure, if he had provided the date stamps, you'd have found something else to nitpick and cirticize and justify that your personal experience in the game is more reliable than quantitative data ... ? Wouldn't you ?

MaxwellC · September 2016

@ZOS_RichLambert
So what about dragon's blood I mean that skill in it's self is horrible for healing unless you mix in igneous shield + vitality potions then it becomes somewhat good. Healing for 16.5% of my missing health isn't in no way shape or form useful, now if it were 16.5% of my total health well it would still be useless unless I have 30k health.

Why what Flames of Oblivion changed to a mage light reskin because from that time I swore it was due to game client issues but instead you slap us DKs in the face and give the same version to Stam Sorcs.

Ch4mpTW · September 2016

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

It has to be. I play on 2 platforms, and have seen way more stamina users than magicka users. Way more. And even then with magicka users, I see way more people wearing AND suggesting heavy armor usage than light armor usage. Not to mention the numerous amount of discussions both in-game and here on the forums that support the claim(s) of stamina builds outperforming magicka builds (and being used more). So my question is, when was this data pulled? Where are the time stamps?

When supplying statistics of groups, it's very important to supply date stamps. That way the reviewer can see when the data was collected/compiled, and judge for themselves whether or not the said data in question holds relevance. The graph provided lacks so much detail, it's somewhat humorous.

I can be silly and say, "Bruh." frequently — but dude... Math is my waifu. It's what I excel at, which is why I went with programming as a child. I'm a grown man now, and still adore it and do it for a living. So when I see things involving math of some sort, I go bananas. Especially statistics.

Errr... Bruh....
You're aware Rich was just sharing some insight with us ? Not submitting a study to the "Science" board for review ? Because, I'm sure, if he had provided the date stamps, you'd have found something else to nitpick and cirticize and justify that your personal experience in the game is more reliable than quantitative data ... ? Wouldn't you ?

As a man of logic, not really. No. I wouldn't. I'd be satisfied, and simply take what was presented before me. And basically just carry on with my business. All I'm saying is that when providing data like that, it's crucial to supply when the data is collected. That's all. It's basic knowledge to do so when providing data or a graph of any kind. You learn that in elementary school. ._.

Mandragora · September 2016

Also you have to consider players, who don't wear some armor because of stats, but because 1. what they prefer, and 2. some minority how it looks like. But maybe that is in that graph with PvP players over 501cp - are there some players who wear some armor just because of preferences, or is it pure stats decision? I don't know.
I don't remember how is the heavy armor boosted, but it should have a lot of health. But still I prefer medium/light armor any time. But in that original post were more important features I didn't know about because I will start PvP with max CP and I think should be dealt with - like several poisons and no protections against some skills.

leepalmer95 · September 2016

You can't just pull out a random graph with no filters...

Playing pvp for more than an hour clearing shows how many people are stamina and light, there it literally like 75% + people who are stamina and most of them wear heavy.

Wonder how many of those people are actually active, are alt's etc...

ZOS_GinaBruno · September 2016

Those numbers were pulled yesterday. I saw it happen.

Joy_Division · September 2016

They have hard data.

ZoS just not interpret it very well and comes up with dubious/noob-friendly means to "balance" what they perceive as out of sorts.

Danksta · September 2016

It should be quite obvious this game will never be close to balanced as long as they continue to have skills behave the same in PvP as PvE.

kongkim · September 2016

Haha Haters gonna hate. Its funny to see when they do get some facts on the board and let people in, showing them how they do. people still gonna hate and just find something stupid reason to way it can't be, so they can keep hating.

Thumbs up for ZOS in this Thread.