ZOS Claims to Use "Hard Data" for Balancing

GrumpyDuckling · September 2016

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

The Dev takes the time to reply to a wall of text post and people are questioning the data provided?

"Time stamp!!"

Really? Get a grip.

In a game that receives so many updates and changes time stamps are essential for accurate information. Not sure why you would want to take the data in the dev's post as 100% fact without having all the necessary information.

Your argument of "Get a grip" doesn't make sense. Give players a reason why they should believe everything a dev says? Just because he works for ZOS doesn't make him impervious to errors or always right.

Your're advocating for less information that would only strengthen the dev's claim about heavy armor if truthfully provided - how does that make any sense?

Come now. Why would he go out of his way to post data from 2014?

He provided data, and people lost their mind because it didn't correspond with their conceived observations.

That is quite insulting to them, and probably why they stay out of threads like this.

I don't know where you're pulling 2014 from for your example, which is kind of the point of asking for a time stamp. We don't know the time frame that the data was pulled from.

- Was it from update 11?
- Was it from the last 3 months?
- Was it from last week?
- Was it from the last 3 updates?

What's the harm in giving a time frame of when the data was collected? It paints a clearer picture of the facts and only serves to enhance the developer's data.

Khaos_Bane · September 2016

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

The Dev takes the time to reply to a wall of text post and people are questioning the data provided?

"Time stamp!!"

Really? Get a grip.

In a game that receives so many updates and changes time stamps are essential for accurate information. Not sure why you would want to take the data in the dev's post as 100% fact without having all the necessary information.

Your argument of "Get a grip" doesn't make sense. Give players a reason why they should believe everything a dev says? Just because he works for ZOS doesn't make him impervious to errors or always right.

Your're advocating for less information that would only strengthen the dev's claim about heavy armor if truthfully provided - how does that make any sense?

Come now. Why would he go out of his way to post data from 2014?

He provided data, and people lost their mind because it didn't correspond with their conceived observations.

That is quite insulting to them, and probably why they stay out of threads like this.

I don't know where you're pulling 2014 from for your example, which is kind of the point of asking for a time stamp. We don't know the time frame that the data was pulled from.

- Was it from update 11?
- Was it from the last 3 months?
- Was it from last week?
- Was it from the last 3 updates?

What's the harm in giving a time frame of when the data was collected? It paints a clearer picture of the facts and only serves to enhance the developer's data.

Precisely !

Ivan04 · September 2016

I feel ashamed of pretentious whiny players who think they know everything about the game, and better than developers too.

xellink · September 2016

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

I don't know where you're pulling 2014 from for your example, which is kind of the point of asking for a time stamp. We don't know the time frame that the data was pulled from.

- Was it from update 11?
- Was it from the last 3 months?
- Was it from last week?
- Was it from the last 3 updates?

What's the harm in giving a time frame of when the data was collected? It paints a clearer picture of the facts and only serves to enhance the developer's data.

Yes there is harm to be done. First it emphasises that there is no trust between Rich and players, that rich isn't intelligent enough to pull data from a relevant time-frame.

Secondly it promotes the mentality that making rude demands will lead to more data getting released and that will make the community more rude and demanding/ chase away the nice people.

Very few of these posts were polite, and leaning on the passive aggressive tone. That is not the kind of playerbase we want and such players should not be entertained. Polite requests are welcome but that also doesn't entitle a reply.

Thelon · September 2016

Ivan04 wrote: »

I feel ashamed of pretentious whiny players who think they know everything about the game

Rickter · September 2016

maybe instead of zos entertaining you barely out of high school kids, they should just ban you from the game. they'll make their money back with a unicorn mount

Sureshawt · September 2016

Ivan04 wrote: »

I feel ashamed of pretentious whiny players who think they know everything about the game, and better than developers too.

xellink wrote: »

Very few of these posts were polite, and leaning on the passive aggressive tone. That is not the kind of playerbase we want and such players should not be entertained. Polite requests are welcome but that also doesn't entitle a reply.

^ Thumbs up on these comments as they reflect my feelings about most of these posters.

These pretentious and entitled set of brats think they know everything. I'm happy to see ZoS give them get the smack down they deserve and doing so in a professional manner.

Data is objective and unbiased while player experience is subjective and biased.

It is good to get feedback from players regarding their experiences so that developers can target, pull and analyze the right data. However, objective data analysis needs to be the basis of any adjustments.

GrumpyDuckling · September 2016

xellink wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

I don't know where you're pulling 2014 from for your example, which is kind of the point of asking for a time stamp. We don't know the time frame that the data was pulled from.

- Was it from update 11?
- Was it from the last 3 months?
- Was it from last week?
- Was it from the last 3 updates?

What's the harm in giving a time frame of when the data was collected? It paints a clearer picture of the facts and only serves to enhance the developer's data.

Yes there is harm to be done. First it emphasises that there is no trust between Rich and players, that rich isn't intelligent enough to pull data from a relevant time-frame.

Secondly it promotes the mentality that making rude demands will lead to more data getting released and that will make the community more rude and demanding/ chase away the nice people.

Very few of these posts were polite, and leaning on the passive aggressive tone. That is not the kind of playerbase we want and such players should not be entertained. Polite requests are welcome but that also doesn't entitle a reply.

I disagree with your first statement about emphasizing distrust. It's perfectly fair for people to request a time stamp on data that is being presented to them as fact - and I worry when people just assume fact without all relevant information.

I agree with your second statement about not responding to rude demands. The best way to deal with them is to either ignore or remove them. However I still think that players who are being asked to evaluate data should be given all of the facts. I think it's justified that the polite people be heard in this matter.

anitajoneb17_ESO · September 2016

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

However I still think that players who are being asked to evaluate data should be given all of the facts.

Players were not being asked to evaluate data. Players were kindly given some quantitative information to explain some of the dev's decisions.

Person A : You're wearing a jumper today, but it's not cold. Why do you wear a jumper ?
Person B : Because it's cold ! You might not sense it the way I do but it is cold !
Person A : Why do you think it's cold ?
Person B : Thermometer shows a temperature of 10°C. That's quite cold.
Person A : impossible. How dare you tell me what the temperature is without telling me the brand of your instrument, the exact location and orientation of the sensor, the time stamp of your measurement and the last maintenance certificate of the equipment used !! I'm sure that was the temperature two years ago. And it's wrong anyway because the sensors were in the shadows and in the wind !! You don't know how to measure temperature !!

phaseadept · September 2016

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

However I still think that players who are being asked to evaluate data should be given all of the facts.

Players were not being asked to evaluate data. Players were kindly given some quantitative information to explain some of the dev's decisions.

Person A : You're wearing a jumper today, but it's not cold. Why do you wear a jumper ?
Person B : Because it's cold ! You might not sense it the way I do but it is cold !
Person A : Why do you think it's cold ?
Person B : Thermometer shows a temperature of 10°C. That's quite cold.
Person A : impossible. How dare you tell me what the temperature is without telling me the brand of your instrument, the exact location and orientation of the sensor, the time stamp of your measurement and the last maintenance certificate of the equipment used !! I'm sure that was the temperature two years ago. And it's wrong anyway because the sensors were in the shadows and in the wind !! You don't know how to measure temperature !!

So much this. . .

Publius_Scipio · September 2016

Thelon wrote: »

Ivan04 wrote: »

I feel ashamed of pretentious whiny players who think they know everything about the game

GreenSoup2HoT · September 2016

@ZOS_RichLambert

Is there anyway we can see more data like this for different topics?

Can we see how many players are magicka vs stamina in pvp?
How many players are playing a specific class in pvp?

Thank you so much for showing off this information.

KingDuncanVII · September 2016

Having shields be 20 seconds long gave Sorcs the ability to dramatically reduce the damage taken (if attacker isn't wearing Shield Breaker) and deal great damage at the same time. Sorcs were like Demigods until Shield Breaker was released and shields were shortened.

I applaud them for making Shield 6 seconds as it is no longer a crutch ability but actually requires you to use it skillfully. And I've run into Sorcs who have no issue with the shield duration because they were actually good Sorcs who could play the class and not play the ability.

Wing · September 2016

way to serve the haters ZOS keep on keeping on, love to watch em whine and complain even when smacked down with facts, just proves that they were ignorant morons in the first place XD

GrumpyDuckling · September 2016

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

However I still think that players who are being asked to evaluate data should be given all of the facts.

Players were not being asked to evaluate data. Players were kindly given some quantitative information to explain some of the dev's decisions.

Person A : You're wearing a jumper today, but it's not cold. Why do you wear a jumper ?
Person B : Because it's cold ! You might not sense it the way I do but it is cold !
Person A : Why do you think it's cold ?
Person B : Thermometer shows a temperature of 10°C. That's quite cold.
Person A : impossible. How dare you tell me what the temperature is without telling me the brand of your instrument, the exact location and orientation of the sensor, the time stamp of your measurement and the last maintenance certificate of the equipment used !! I'm sure that was the temperature two years ago. And it's wrong anyway because the sensors were in the shadows and in the wind !! You don't know how to measure temperature !!

Bar graphs are used to evaluate data. Any person who looks at a bar graph and wants to understand what it represents must evaluate it. So yes, players are being asked to evaluate data to arrive at the same conclusion that the dev did.

It is worth noting that players are not privy to all of the information that the dev has regarding the bar graphs that were posted, specifically the timeline in which the data was collected. If such information were to be shared with players, then players are more likely to arrive at the same conclusion that the dev did regarding this matter.

Your parable is nice. I enjoyed reading it.

Azuramoonstar · September 2016

I see this all the time in mmo, and typically it is just people mad about nerfs.

players want to be over powered unless they are killed by it. They then claim it is over powered, and want it nerfed.

and supposed arm chair devs think they know better.

no one want to be nerfed, nor do they want to be killed by something overpowered.

It isn't easy to balance mmo

ajback_ESO · September 2016

acw37162 wrote: »

Reading the responses to what amounts an articulate rage post reminds of wizards first rule.

I love that book. Kahlan is love, Kahlan is life.

Hiero_Glyph · September 2016

Sureshawt wrote: »

Ivan04 wrote: »

I feel ashamed of pretentious whiny players who think they know everything about the game, and better than developers too.

xellink wrote: »

Very few of these posts were polite, and leaning on the passive aggressive tone. That is not the kind of playerbase we want and such players should not be entertained. Polite requests are welcome but that also doesn't entitle a reply.

^ Thumbs up on these comments as they reflect my feelings about most of these posters.

These pretentious and entitled set of brats think they know everything. I'm happy to see ZoS give them get the smack down they deserve and doing so in a professional manner.

Data is objective and unbiased while player experience is subjective and biased.

It is good to get feedback from players regarding their experiences so that developers can target, pull and analyze the right data. However, objective data analysis needs to be the basis of any adjustments.

This is only half correct, which is part of the problem. Take a racecar for example. While technical data can be use to fine tune its performance, it takes driver feedback to make it optimal. Also, developers are notorious for being bad at playing games. I used to be a tester for what is now one of most well known AAA developers in the business and they were simply awful despite being able to program with the best.

ajback_ESO · September 2016

So much trolling in one post. Yall heard it from the Creative Director himself.

Ch4mpTW · September 2016

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

The Dev takes the time to reply to a wall of text post and people are questioning the data provided?

"Time stamp!!"

Really? Get a grip.

In a game that receives so many updates and changes time stamps are essential for accurate information. Not sure why you would want to take the data in the dev's post as 100% fact without having all the necessary information.

Your argument of "Get a grip" doesn't make sense. Give players a reason why they should believe everything a dev says? Just because he works for ZOS doesn't make him impervious to errors or always right.

Your're advocating for less information that would only strengthen the dev's claim about heavy armor if truthfully provided - how does that make any sense?

Come now. Why would he go out of his way to post data from 2014?

He provided data, and people lost their mind because it didn't correspond with their conceived observations.

That is quite insulting to them, and probably why they stay out of threads like this.

I don't know where you're pulling 2014 from for your example, which is kind of the point of asking for a time stamp. We don't know the time frame that the data was pulled from.

- Was it from update 11?
- Was it from the last 3 months?
- Was it from last week?
- Was it from the last 3 updates?

What's the harm in giving a time frame of when the data was collected? It paints a clearer picture of the facts and only serves to enhance the developer's data.

I'm so thankful you're 1 of the few people who appears to be a man of logic, and doesn't automatically accept what's presented before then as fact. I am honestly shocked that so many people are fans of graphs lacking crucial information, on a game that is so heavily based around statistics and math overall. ._.

SublimeSparo · September 2016

DHale wrote: »

jcasini222ub17_ESO wrote: »

Awesome post @ZOS_RichLambert . While you took the time to do that would you be so kind to shed any insight on resolutions to the health desync problems in Cyro?

Also if your data is having problems for more than four hours you should call the empiricist.

Most health de syncs are caused by add ons for the pc users turn them off unless absolutely critical. So that is not going to get fixed.

Ummm that would mean they aren't a thing on console... they very much are a thing on console so you can rule addons out.
Biggest offender is snipe, i also believe lightning staves might be culpable too, but hard to say for sure.

SublimeSparo · September 2016

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

The Dev takes the time to reply to a wall of text post and people are questioning the data provided?

"Time stamp!!"

Really? Get a grip.

In a game that receives so many updates and changes time stamps are essential for accurate information. Not sure why you would want to take the data in the dev's post as 100% fact without having all the necessary information.

Your argument of "Get a grip" doesn't make sense. Give players a reason why they should believe everything a dev says? Just because he works for ZOS doesn't make him impervious to errors or always right.

Your're advocating for less information that would only strengthen the dev's claim about heavy armor if truthfully provided - how does that make any sense?

Come now. Why would he go out of his way to post data from 2014?

He provided data, and people lost their mind because it didn't correspond with their conceived observations.

That is quite insulting to them, and probably why they stay out of threads like this.

I don't know where you're pulling 2014 from for your example, which is kind of the point of asking for a time stamp. We don't know the time frame that the data was pulled from.

- Was it from update 11?
- Was it from the last 3 months?
- Was it from last week?
- Was it from the last 3 updates?

What's the harm in giving a time frame of when the data was collected? It paints a clearer picture of the facts and only serves to enhance the developer's data.

I'm so thankful you're 1 of the few people who appears to be a man of logic, and doesn't automatically accept what's presented before then as fact. I am honestly shocked that so many people are fans of graphs lacking crucial information, on a game that is so heavily based around statistics and math overall. ._.

The first thing you are taught when studying statistics:-
Statistics can be used/abused to show/ prove pretty much anything. Graphs are particularly OP at misleading.
Hence the need for proper information such as timestamps etc

cazlonb16_ESO · September 2016

I think it is time to derail this thread with animal baby pictures. Yes, I'll go first:

hrothbern · September 2016

.

cazlonb16_ESO wrote: »

I think it is time to derail this thread with animal baby pictures. Yes, I'll go first:

Who says that this is still a baby ?

What is the time stamp ?

anitajoneb17_ESO · September 2016

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

It is worth noting that players are not privy to all of the information that the dev has regarding the bar graphs that were posted, specifically the timeline in which the data was collected. If such information were to be shared with players, then players are more likely to arrive at the same conclusion that the dev did regarding this matter.

No. People "in distrust" would have accused Rich of manipulating, no matter how much information he'd have given. Because ALL DATA is biased, even the hardest, rawest data. 100% (or aiming at that) correct interpretation of data requires experience of the environment, and a lot more other data, and, at any given stage, a human (educated but biased) decision as to how to approach this data.
If for instance the time stamp was 9am two days ago, people would have (rightfully) complained that the population in PvP areas is significantly different between prime time and breakfast time. But breakfast time in Baltimore is prime time for other players in other locations. The time zones are a bigger issue on the US server than on EU. Then for correct reading you'd need data about server populations and time zones on the US server. Then based on that you'd probably need to repeat the data extraction several times, and proceed with some statistical adjustement to reach a somewhat reliable average.
As some people have mentioned also, what does "light armor" mean in that data and how were people wearing 5/1/1 or 3/3/1 calculated in that raw data ?
Etc etc. This is ENDLESS. Anyone who has the slightest experience in statistics and data processing knows that it is an "ALL-OR-NOTHING" kind of ideal thing, which you cannot reach and therefore at some stage the human behind it has to say "stop here. I think my results are reliable as they are now, even if I could check and cross-analyze my results with even more data". Which is why I doubt that some self-proclaimed "math and stats experts" in this thread are as experienced as they pretend to be.

So I insist that people were not asked to evaluate data, they were given an illustration on why ZOS makes such an such decisions. And no matter the obvious bias, (which Rich even mentioned in his post), I trust ZOS MUCH MORE than any particular player or group of players, because players want to suit their own desires, while ZOS is required to fulfill the needs and playing habits of an entire playerbase.

Minalan · September 2016

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

However I still think that players who are being asked to evaluate data should be given all of the facts.

Players were not being asked to evaluate data. Players were kindly given some quantitative information to explain some of the dev's decisions.

Person A : You're wearing a jumper today, but it's not cold. Why do you wear a jumper ?
Person B : Because it's cold ! You might not sense it the way I do but it is cold !
Person A : Why do you think it's cold ?
Person B : Thermometer shows a temperature of 10°C. That's quite cold.
Person A : impossible. How dare you tell me what the temperature is without telling me the brand of your instrument, the exact location and orientation of the sensor, the time stamp of your measurement and the last maintenance certificate of the equipment used !! I'm sure that was the temperature two years ago. And it's wrong anyway because the sensors were in the shadows and in the wind !! You don't know how to measure temperature !!

Person A: thermometer shows a temperature of 10C.
Person B: ... But this is mid July in Southern Florida. I think you're reading that thermometer wrong...

I'm not saying his numbers are BS. We know every other player out there is a medium armor Stam Nightblade (and why). We know the other every guy is a light armor magicka Templar spamming radiant destruction. Thus there aren't QUITE as many heavy armor players.

Is that a reason to buff heavy armor because Stam nightblades and magicka Templars overperform so much? Should we nerf light armor while we're at it, so radiant destruction won't hit as hard? That's drawing the wrong conclusions.

It also doesn't explain anything else on that list. Viper/Velidreth. Stam insta-kill sets. Etc... Which number DID you all look at when Velidreth got a buff this patch?

Let me know when this is all fixed.. Thanks

dsalter · September 2016

any idea if the charts for what class is used most as well as what weapons are most equipped?

Aliniel · September 2016

I read this and I felt sorry for the game. I must agree with all of it.

xellink · September 2016

Minalan wrote: »

I'm not saying his numbers are BS. We know every other player out there is a medium armor Stam Nightblade (and why). We know the other every guy is a light armor magicka Templar spamming radiant destruction. Thus there aren't QUITE as many heavy armor players.

Let me know when this is all fixed.. Thanks

Thats the problem isn't it? HA in the current stage prolongs battles. Before this every encounter was pretty much people trying to instagib each other. Everyone is either 100% stam or 100% magicka with no consideration to survivability.

Let me introduce you to a game called RPS. It has real time graphics.

koendrenthe8neb18_ESO · September 2016

This. Everything on this! At the start this game was all about having the skills and abilities to win a match. Nowadays it's just a equipment fest. The ones with the most expensive outfit wins the match 9/10 times. Please nerf equipment to give them a less bigger impact, because it's frustrating for people who don't want to spend mills of money to get a good set.