Dueling should not kill

Recremen · September 2016

Dueling is really cool, but it seems a bit excessive to die as a result. I prefer the system in other games, where it stops you at 1 HP. That way you can actually do things like have a practice fight between friends/siblings without turning to murder. Let's keep the killing to Cyrodiil, yeah? Otherwise, beautiful system, super fun to finally be able to give Nord brother a swat on the head when he needs one.

Brrrofski · September 2016

There's no punishment for dying so what does it matter?

susmitds · September 2016

It would be weird for all duels to be deathmatches ..... except for the fact all players are pseudo-dremora and reform immediately on death.

Recremen · September 2016

Brrrofski wrote: »

There's no punishment for dying so what does it matter?

Lots of tiny problems with it that add up. The process of actually getting your body back instead of being in ghost form takes too long, for one. Then there's the kind of immersion-breaking aspect of turning every combat or sparring match between friends and relatives into a bloody murder. I know dying makes sense if it were a duel in the more traditional sense, but even that gets broken easily when your foe rezzes right in front of you. I know we're all The Vestige here, but it's a bit much.

Then there's the teabag culture. I saw enough of it on the PTS to know how it will wind up. On PC NA the AD zones have been, overall, incredibly peaceful and friendly, I would prefer not to give any place for salty losers to get their toxic hooks into zone chat. I feel that a system more similar to other games, where you get left at 1 HP, would go a long way toward helping deescalate any such situations.

Sallington · September 2016

Just leave it how it is. I imagine if ZOS tries to prevent dying in duels, it will affect the whole game and screw with PVP/leaderboards.

Then they'll fix that, but then people won't be able to rez or something lol. Be careful when you ask for fixes to things that aren't broken.

Spearblade · September 2016

Recremen wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

There's no punishment for dying so what does it matter?

Lots of tiny problems with it that add up. The process of actually getting your body back instead of being in ghost form takes too long, for one. Then there's the kind of immersion-breaking aspect of turning every combat or sparring match between friends and relatives into a bloody murder. I know dying makes sense if it were a duel in the more traditional sense, but even that gets broken easily when your foe rezzes right in front of you. I know we're all The Vestige here, but it's a bit much. Then there's the teabag culture. I saw enough of it on the PTS to know how it will wind up. On PC NA the AD zones have been, overall, incredibly peaceful and friendly, I would prefer not to give any place for salty losers to get their toxic hooks into zone chat. I feel that a system more similar to other games, where you get left at 1 HP, would go a long way toward helping deescalate any such situations.

While I do agree with you, that would require more development time. It's fine/useable as is; they can refine it in the future. "Dueling" as is...praying you don't get *** by trolls in Cyro/IC is far worse.

Sigtric · September 2016

if you don't duel to the death, what's the point?

CyrusArya · September 2016

No because in theory you could recover from 1 hit point.

Recremen · September 2016

Spearblade wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

There's no punishment for dying so what does it matter?

Lots of tiny problems with it that add up. The process of actually getting your body back instead of being in ghost form takes too long, for one. Then there's the kind of immersion-breaking aspect of turning every combat or sparring match between friends and relatives into a bloody murder. I know dying makes sense if it were a duel in the more traditional sense, but even that gets broken easily when your foe rezzes right in front of you. I know we're all The Vestige here, but it's a bit much. Then there's the teabag culture. I saw enough of it on the PTS to know how it will wind up. On PC NA the AD zones have been, overall, incredibly peaceful and friendly, I would prefer not to give any place for salty losers to get their toxic hooks into zone chat. I feel that a system more similar to other games, where you get left at 1 HP, would go a long way toward helping deescalate any such situations.

While I do agree with you, that would require more development time. It's fine/useable as is; they can refine it in the future. "Dueling" as is...praying you don't get *** by trolls in Cyro/IC is far worse.

I know it's more development time, wasn't really expecting any action on it before the patch. It's just kind of a shame that their first idea was to give a "free rez" instead of something a little more complete. Hopefully they can get this kind of a change in soon, though.

Recremen · September 2016

Sigtric wrote: »

if you don't duel to the death, what's the point?

The dueling system can be used for much more than just dueling in the traditional sense. Some of my buddies were hoping to use it for sparring, build testing, etc. Imagine our surprise when one of us got turned into a spurting, gooping, melted corpse from a poison injection kill. It was extremely jarring, and not what we were hoping from the system. It's still nice to be able to fight each other, but it seems very lacking in this regard.

CyrusArya wrote: »

No because in theory you could recover from 1 hit point.

"Leave at 1 hit point" was a bit of a misnomer, it would be more along the lines of "any hit that would reduce you to below 1 health instead leaves you at 1 health and ends the duel."

luen79rwb17_ESO · September 2016

Hmmm on the contrary it would be kind of fun if they add something like fatalities or blade of woe's deaths at the end of duels. It would be too funny

maybe adding these features to work only around arenas.

susmitds · September 2016

Recremen wrote: »

Sigtric wrote: »

if you don't duel to the death, what's the point?

The dueling system can be used for much more than just dueling in the traditional sense. Some of my buddies were hoping to use it for sparring, build testing, etc. Imagine our surprise when one of us got turned into a spurting, gooping, melted corpse from a poison injection kill. It was extremely jarring, and not what we were hoping from the system. It's still nice to be able to fight each other, but it seems very lacking in this regard.

CyrusArya wrote: »

No because in theory you could recover from 1 hit point.

"Leave at 1 hit point" was a bit of a misnomer, it would be more along the lines of "any hit that would reduce you to below 1 health instead leaves you at 1 health and ends the duel."

Dude, this is a MATURE game you are playing with a Violence tag.

Taleof2Cities · September 2016

Recremen wrote: »

I know it's more development time, wasn't really expecting any action on it before the patch. It's just kind of a shame that their first idea was to give a "free rez" instead of something a little more complete. Hopefully they can get this kind of a change in soon, though.

^This.^

Can't argue with a toggle in the dueling settings that allows both players to choose a "non-death" option that doesn't break immersion quite so much.

Maybe just set a minimum health to where a player is declared the "loser" and the duel ends.

Though I would prefer my characters to duel to the death, you have a great point @Recremen.

Recremen · September 2016

susmitds wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Sigtric wrote: »

if you don't duel to the death, what's the point?

The dueling system can be used for much more than just dueling in the traditional sense. Some of my buddies were hoping to use it for sparring, build testing, etc. Imagine our surprise when one of us got turned into a spurting, gooping, melted corpse from a poison injection kill. It was extremely jarring, and not what we were hoping from the system. It's still nice to be able to fight each other, but it seems very lacking in this regard.

CyrusArya wrote: »

No because in theory you could recover from 1 hit point.

"Leave at 1 hit point" was a bit of a misnomer, it would be more along the lines of "any hit that would reduce you to below 1 health instead leaves you at 1 health and ends the duel."

Dude, this is a MATURE game you are playing with a Violence tag.

Well yeah, I don't get bent out of shape when that happens in PvP though, I just wasn't expecting someone to melt their husband in a sparring match!

WillhelmBlack · September 2016

Wat

DocFrost72 · September 2016

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

I know it's more development time, wasn't really expecting any action on it before the patch. It's just kind of a shame that their first idea was to give a "free rez" instead of something a little more complete. Hopefully they can get this kind of a change in soon, though.

^This.^

Can't argue with a toggle in the dueling settings that allows both players to choose a "non-death" option that doesn't break immersion quite so much.

Maybe just set a minimum health to where a player is declared the "loser" and the duel ends.

Though I would prefer my characters to duel to the death, you have a great point @Recremen.

Definately a choice, if it does get implimented. Choice rarely disappoints.

opaj · September 2016

Recremen wrote: »

I know it's more development time, wasn't really expecting any action on it before the patch. It's just kind of a shame that their first idea was to give a "free rez" instead of something a little more complete. Hopefully they can get this kind of a change in soon, though.

I don't think it was their first idea, though. In one of the PAX panels, I recall them saying that they looked at alternatives, like having the loser take a knee, but there were too many issues for too little gains in fixing those. From a development standpoint, I agree with their assessment.

That said, yeah, it'd be nice if duels didn't end with such a sense of finality. :P

Recremen · September 2016

opaj wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

I know it's more development time, wasn't really expecting any action on it before the patch. It's just kind of a shame that their first idea was to give a "free rez" instead of something a little more complete. Hopefully they can get this kind of a change in soon, though.

I don't think it was their first idea, though. In one of the PAX panels, I recall them saying that they looked at alternatives, like having the loser take a knee, but there were too many issues for too little gains in fixing those. From a development standpoint, I agree with their assessment.

That said, yeah, it'd be nice if duels didn't end with such a sense of finality. :P

Ah, I believe I missed that PAX panel, will have to go looking for it. Probably in their article about it. I hope they can resolve those issues, that's much more in line with what I had expected.

code65536 · September 2016

They already have the tech for something like this. Specifically, the Phoenix and Eternal Yokeda sets. Once you reach 0 health, instead of dying, do something similar to Phoenix/Eternal. Except replace the Phoenix/Eternal animation with one where you take a knee or raise your hands or something. And then end the duel when that happens.

Recremen · September 2016

code65536 wrote: »

They already have the tech for something like this. Specifically, the Phoenix and Eternal Yokeda sets. Once you reach 0 health, instead of dying, do something similar to Phoenix/Eternal. Except replace the Phoenix/Eternal animation with one where you take a knee or raise your hands or something. And then end the duel when that happens.

To be fair, it's always hard to tell what code will be reusable, depending on how specific the original code is to its application, how tightly-coupled it is to that system, etc. But ideally, yes, this would be exactly the kind of starting point I'd use myself if I were investigating that sort of functionality.

Ivan04 · September 2016

If you really don't wanna duel to the death, just have a gentleman's agreement with your opponent to stop at 20% health and count this as a point. That way you also can have a lot of short matches consecutively.

Recremen · September 2016

Ivan04 wrote: »

If you really don't wanna duel to the death, just have a gentleman's agreement with your opponent to stop at 20% health and count this as a point. That way you also can have a lot of short matches consecutively.

You say that, but if someone isn't running a solid mitigation build it can be pretty trivial to know them from 75% to full death in a little over a second, especially if they already have DoTs and such on them.

Yolokin_Swagonborn · September 2016

Nothing should kill. We should all be super powerful and immortal and never die.

But being serious, there should be a "no weapons" dueling options where you fistfight and it stops at 1HP so that the RP'ers and fragiles can have a fun thing to do without the dreaded "consequences" of having to "die."

Iselin · September 2016

Maybe instead of dying you could force a begging on your knees emote with a chat bubble saying "No mas!"

Recremen · September 2016

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Nothing should kill. We should all be super powerful and immortal and never die.

But being serious, there should be a "no weapons" dueling options where you fistfight and it stops at 1HP so that the RP'ers and fragiles can have a fun thing to do without the dreaded "consequences" of having to "die."

Sweety, save your sass for Cyro. Other MMO's have nonlethal dueling, so let's not pretend that this is some left-field suggestion.

STEVIL · September 2016

Recremen wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

There's no punishment for dying so what does it matter?

Lots of tiny problems with it that add up. The process of actually getting your body back instead of being in ghost form takes too long, for one. Then there's the kind of immersion-breaking aspect of turning every combat or sparring match between friends and relatives into a bloody murder. I know dying makes sense if it were a duel in the more traditional sense, but even that gets broken easily when your foe rezzes right in front of you. I know we're all The Vestige here, but it's a bit much. Then there's the teabag culture. I saw enough of it on the PTS to know how it will wind up. On PC NA the AD zones have been, overall, incredibly peaceful and friendly, I would prefer not to give any place for salty losers to get their toxic hooks into zone chat. I feel that a system more similar to other games, where you get left at 1 HP, would go a long way toward helping deescalate any such situations.

Ok so first, every duel simply DOES NOT end in death.At any time either character can leave the zone and forfeit.

You character dies in a duel if they keep fighting and do not forfeit or win.

There is NOTHING preventing two dueling character from having a "surrender" sign which if given means "stop hitting me and i will forfeit by walking out".

NOTHING.

NOTHING AT ALL.

PERIOD.

You die in a duel if you kerp fighting, do not win and do not forfeit.

So lets look at the position.

@Recremen said but parens are my additions.

Dueling is really cool, but it seems a bit excessive to die as a result (just because you do not win, do not forfeit and keep fightinguntil dead.)

Then there's the kind of immersion-breaking aspect of turning every combat or sparring match between friends and relatives into a bloody murder. (Even if the participants refuse to forfeit and keep fighting)

Those arent positions that make sense to me.

Do they to you?

Recremen · September 2016

STEVIL wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

There's no punishment for dying so what does it matter?

Lots of tiny problems with it that add up. The process of actually getting your body back instead of being in ghost form takes too long, for one. Then there's the kind of immersion-breaking aspect of turning every combat or sparring match between friends and relatives into a bloody murder. I know dying makes sense if it were a duel in the more traditional sense, but even that gets broken easily when your foe rezzes right in front of you. I know we're all The Vestige here, but it's a bit much. Then there's the teabag culture. I saw enough of it on the PTS to know how it will wind up. On PC NA the AD zones have been, overall, incredibly peaceful and friendly, I would prefer not to give any place for salty losers to get their toxic hooks into zone chat. I feel that a system more similar to other games, where you get left at 1 HP, would go a long way toward helping deescalate any such situations.

Ok so first, every duel simply DOES NOT end in death.At any time either character can leave the zone and forfeit.

You character dies in a duel if they keep fighting and do not forfeit or win.

There is NOTHING preventing two dueling character from having a "surrender" sign which if given means "stop hitting me and i will forfeit by walking out".

NOTHING.

NOTHING AT ALL.

PERIOD.

You die in a duel if you kerp fighting, do not win and do not forfeit.

So lets look at the position.

@Recremen said but parens are my additions.

Dueling is really cool, but it seems a bit excessive to die as a result (just because you do not win, do not forfeit and keep fightinguntil dead.)

Then there's the kind of immersion-breaking aspect of turning every combat or sparring match between friends and relatives into a bloody murder. (Even if the participants refuse to forfeit and keep fighting)

Those arent positions that make sense to me.

Do they to you?

Interesting criticisms, I will try to address them all.

The zone of a duel is extremely large, so forfeiting by leaving the zone of combat is not as feasible as you are making it sound. I don't know if you haven't PvP'd, but the game is very bursty, even with battle spirit applied. You could be on your way to forfeit, take two steps, and suddenly die to a good combo. Your opponent is unlikely to give you enough time between attacks to finish your walk of shame to the edge of the dueling zone. If they were giving you that much time, it's not exactly going to be fun and engaging combat. They'd be holding back significantly.
Having a surender signal is not adequate for preventing death. As previously stated, the game is extremely bursty. You can go from full health to none is seconds. If your opponent doesn't want to kill you, but gets a lucky crit and knocks you out anyway, no surrender signal is going to matter.
Given that forfeiture takes a long time (during which you are still vulnerable) and that dying is easy, I'm not really sure why you keep repeating the "do not win, do not forfeit, and keep fighting until dead" line. I mean, you are dueling, exactly what kind of stop condition are you expecting? If you win, then the other person somehow had time to run out of the dueling zone, or you killed them, neither of which is really what was feasible or desired. And if you fought until you died, then you obviously missed your opportunity to give this elusive surrender signal, either because you were burst down too fast or you miscalculated how much the next attack was going to do.

You might need to spend a little more time in Cyro to fully appreciate why your proposed solutions would be ineffective. You are trying to make it sound like someone is charging headlong off a cliff of their own making, and not really appreciating how easily someone can get a few lucky hits. The only thing not making sense around here is how you're watering down the complexity and unpredictability of combat.

Beerbong_Ginn · September 2016

Meh, not a big deal for me. Since there's no penalty, I almost don't even consider it a death. In my head, It's like "Beerbong Ginn has fainted. Again. Really? That's like 20 in a row. Get gud, scrub."

Sugaroverdose · September 2016

Recremen wrote: »

Dueling is really cool, but it seems a bit excessive to die as a result. I prefer the system in other games, where it stops you at 1 HP. That way you can actually do things like have a practice fight between friends/siblings without turning to murder. Let's keep the killing to Cyrodiil, yeah? Otherwise, beautiful system, super fun to finally be able to give Nord brother a swat on the head when he needs one.

At least this mechanics still don't have known gamebreakinig issues. Overcomplicating system to make it child-friendly does not cost it and pvp community asked for plain dueling realization with one simple rule "who get killed - loose" can't remember that someone asked for fancy but unusable crap.

STEVIL · September 2016

Recremen wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

There's no punishment for dying so what does it matter?

Lots of tiny problems with it that add up. The process of actually getting your body back instead of being in ghost form takes too long, for one. Then there's the kind of immersion-breaking aspect of turning every combat or sparring match between friends and relatives into a bloody murder. I know dying makes sense if it were a duel in the more traditional sense, but even that gets broken easily when your foe rezzes right in front of you. I know we're all The Vestige here, but it's a bit much. Then there's the teabag culture. I saw enough of it on the PTS to know how it will wind up. On PC NA the AD zones have been, overall, incredibly peaceful and friendly, I would prefer not to give any place for salty losers to get their toxic hooks into zone chat. I feel that a system more similar to other games, where you get left at 1 HP, would go a long way toward helping deescalate any such situations.

Ok so first, every duel simply DOES NOT end in death.At any time either character can leave the zone and forfeit.

You character dies in a duel if they keep fighting and do not forfeit or win.

There is NOTHING preventing two dueling character from having a "surrender" sign which if given means "stop hitting me and i will forfeit by walking out".

NOTHING.

NOTHING AT ALL.

PERIOD.

You die in a duel if you kerp fighting, do not win and do not forfeit.

So lets look at the position.

@Recremen said but parens are my additions.

Dueling is really cool, but it seems a bit excessive to die as a result (just because you do not win, do not forfeit and keep fightinguntil dead.)

Then there's the kind of immersion-breaking aspect of turning every combat or sparring match between friends and relatives into a bloody murder. (Even if the participants refuse to forfeit and keep fighting)

Those arent positions that make sense to me.

Do they to you?

Interesting criticisms, I will try to address them all.
The zone of a duel is extremely large, so forfeiting by leaving the zone of combat is not as feasible as you are making it sound. I don't know if you haven't PvP'd, but the game is very bursty, even with battle spirit applied. You could be on your way to forfeit, take two steps, and suddenly die to a good combo. Your opponent is unlikely to give you enough time between attacks to finish your walk of shame to the edge of the dueling zone. If they were giving you that much time, it's not exactly going to be fun and engaging combat. They'd be holding back significantly.

Having a surender signal is not adequate for preventing death. As previously stated, the game is extremely bursty. You can go from full health to none is seconds. If your opponent doesn't want to kill you, but gets a lucky crit and knocks you out anyway, no surrender signal is going to matter.

Given that forfeiture takes a long time (during which you are still vulnerable) and that dying is easy, I'm not really sure why you keep repeating the "do not win, do not forfeit, and keep fighting until dead" line. I mean, you are dueling, exactly what kind of stop condition are you expecting? If you win, then the other person somehow had time to run out of the dueling zone, or you killed them, neither of which is really what was feasible or desired. And if you fought until you died, then you obviously missed your opportunity to give this elusive surrender signal, either because you were burst down too fast or you miscalculated how much the next attack was going to do.

You might need to spend a little more time in Cyro to fully appreciate why your proposed solutions would be ineffective. You are trying to make it sound like someone is charging headlong off a cliff of their own making, and not really appreciating how easily someone can get a few lucky hits. The only thing not making sense around here is how you're watering down the complexity and unpredictability of combat.

Wait wait wait...

Let me get this straight.

After chosing to frame it in a pretty picture of fighting " friends and relatives" your argument is the enemy wont give you chance to surrrnder, will slaughter you as you run for your life, etc?

Seems to me you are realky trying to hide a "fight with bloodthirsty maniac who wsnts me dead" inside "sparring with people i love me" to grt a HAND OF ZOS SAVES ME when your dueling enemy fires off an "execute" when you are low health.

If you and your dueling enemy want non-lethal dueling you can work out do's and dont's to make it possible.
If your dueling enemy wsntd you dead its not fair to invoke a HAND OF ZOS mechanic to stop him.

Recremen · September 2016

STEVIL wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

There's no punishment for dying so what does it matter?

Lots of tiny problems with it that add up. The process of actually getting your body back instead of being in ghost form takes too long, for one. Then there's the kind of immersion-breaking aspect of turning every combat or sparring match between friends and relatives into a bloody murder. I know dying makes sense if it were a duel in the more traditional sense, but even that gets broken easily when your foe rezzes right in front of you. I know we're all The Vestige here, but it's a bit much. Then there's the teabag culture. I saw enough of it on the PTS to know how it will wind up. On PC NA the AD zones have been, overall, incredibly peaceful and friendly, I would prefer not to give any place for salty losers to get their toxic hooks into zone chat. I feel that a system more similar to other games, where you get left at 1 HP, would go a long way toward helping deescalate any such situations.

Ok so first, every duel simply DOES NOT end in death.At any time either character can leave the zone and forfeit.

You character dies in a duel if they keep fighting and do not forfeit or win.

There is NOTHING preventing two dueling character from having a "surrender" sign which if given means "stop hitting me and i will forfeit by walking out".

NOTHING.

NOTHING AT ALL.

PERIOD.

You die in a duel if you kerp fighting, do not win and do not forfeit.

So lets look at the position.

@Recremen said but parens are my additions.

Dueling is really cool, but it seems a bit excessive to die as a result (just because you do not win, do not forfeit and keep fightinguntil dead.)

Then there's the kind of immersion-breaking aspect of turning every combat or sparring match between friends and relatives into a bloody murder. (Even if the participants refuse to forfeit and keep fighting)

Those arent positions that make sense to me.

Do they to you?

Interesting criticisms, I will try to address them all.
The zone of a duel is extremely large, so forfeiting by leaving the zone of combat is not as feasible as you are making it sound. I don't know if you haven't PvP'd, but the game is very bursty, even with battle spirit applied. You could be on your way to forfeit, take two steps, and suddenly die to a good combo. Your opponent is unlikely to give you enough time between attacks to finish your walk of shame to the edge of the dueling zone. If they were giving you that much time, it's not exactly going to be fun and engaging combat. They'd be holding back significantly.

Having a surender signal is not adequate for preventing death. As previously stated, the game is extremely bursty. You can go from full health to none is seconds. If your opponent doesn't want to kill you, but gets a lucky crit and knocks you out anyway, no surrender signal is going to matter.

Given that forfeiture takes a long time (during which you are still vulnerable) and that dying is easy, I'm not really sure why you keep repeating the "do not win, do not forfeit, and keep fighting until dead" line. I mean, you are dueling, exactly what kind of stop condition are you expecting? If you win, then the other person somehow had time to run out of the dueling zone, or you killed them, neither of which is really what was feasible or desired. And if you fought until you died, then you obviously missed your opportunity to give this elusive surrender signal, either because you were burst down too fast or you miscalculated how much the next attack was going to do.

You might need to spend a little more time in Cyro to fully appreciate why your proposed solutions would be ineffective. You are trying to make it sound like someone is charging headlong off a cliff of their own making, and not really appreciating how easily someone can get a few lucky hits. The only thing not making sense around here is how you're watering down the complexity and unpredictability of combat.

Wait wait wait...

Let me get this straight.

After chosing to frame it in a pretty picture of fighting " friends and relatives" your argument is the enemy wont give you chance to surrrnder, will slaughter you as you run for your life, etc?

Seems to me you are realky trying to hide a "fight with bloodthirsty maniac who wsnts me dead" inside "sparring with people i love me" to grt a HAND OF ZOS SAVES ME when your dueling enemy fires off an "execute" when you are low health.

If you and your dueling enemy want non-lethal dueling you can work out do's and dont's to make it possible.
If your dueling enemy wsntd you dead its not fair to invoke a HAND OF ZOS mechanic to stop him.

You seem intent on misinterpreting what I'm saying, as that's not even close to what I'm arguing. At the end of the day, other MMOs do nonlethal dueling, I don't see why ESO should break that expectation. We already have a great lethal PvP zone, you should try it some time. You might see why your arguments sound so ridiculous.