An honest opinion regarding Stamina/Magicka balance.

The_Duke · September 2016

With all the uproar lately regarding the "balance" in resources I decided to do a test for myself. But first a little background.

Since console launch I have only played heavy armor characters. My main is a sap tank and my alt is a heavy stamblade. The past few months has seen my sap tank put on the the shelf while I destroyed people with my stamblade. I wondered if I made a similar set up for my sap tank could it still be successful?

So I grinded mats and glyphs and set about. Making my armor. My stamblade set up and sap tank do not use BR, Viper or veli. No cheese sets here.

Once I had my gear the numbers were almost the same. Stam. 3900 WD buffed, 34000 stam, 30000hp. Sap. 3700Sp, 37000mag, 32000 hp.

While the numbers were almost identical with almost identical CP layouts just adjusted for mag instead of stam, the difference was striking.

I played for a few hours on my magblade and the damage was pitifull compared to my stamblade. My survival was great but the burst was missing. Later I logged onto my stamblade and people melted before my eyes.

Thats when I realized that I was trying to play my sap tank like an in your face burst stam build(which it isnt). A few Cc's and my sap tank was dead where my stam build could break free and roll dodge all day long while still applying pressure.

I relogged back on my magblade and played more from a distance. Used cripple with mercilous resolve and swallow soul to weaken the opposition and only go for the burst when the time was right.

The moral of the story is once I played to the strengths of the mag build I excelled. The minute I stopped trying to force a square peg down a round hole I started getting the same K/D as my stamblade. Even with even stats I couldn't play the same way.

Play to your builds strengths people. There will never be balance no matter how many QQ threads we make. You just have to play the role you love as is and find a way to make it work.

Regards,
The Duke.

Sharee · September 2016

The_Duke wrote: »

With all the uproar lately regarding the "balance" in resources I decided to do a test for myself. But first a little background.

Since console launch I have only played heavy armor characters. My main is a sap tank and my alt is a heavy stamblade. The past few months has seen my sap tank put on the the shelf while I destroyed people with my stamblade. I wondered if I made a similar set up for my sap tank could it still be successful?

So I grinded mats and glyphs and set about. Making my armor. My stamblade set up and sap tank do not use BR, Viper or veli. No cheese sets here.

Once I had my gear the numbers were almost the same. Stam. 3900 WD buffed, 34000 stam, 30000hp. Sap. 3700Sp, 37000mag, 32000 hp.

While the numbers were almost identical with almost identical CP layouts just adjusted for mag instead of stam, the difference was striking.

I played for a few hours on my magblade and the damage was pitifull compared to my stamblade. My survival was great but the burst was missing. Later I logged onto my stamblade and people melted before my eyes.

Thats when I realized that I was trying to play my sap tank like an in your face burst stam build(which it isnt). A few Cc's and my sap tank was dead where my stam build could break free and roll dodge all day long while still applying pressure.

I relogged back on my magblade and played more from a distance. Used cripple with mercilous resolve and swallow soul to weaken the opposition and only go for the burst when the time was right.

The moral of the story is once I played to the strengths of the mag build I excelled. The minute I stopped trying to force a square peg down a round hole I started getting the same K/D as my stamblade. Even with even stats I couldn't play the same way.

Play to your builds strengths people. There will never be balance no matter how many QQ threads we make. You just have to play the role you love as is and find a way to make it work.

Regards,
The Duke.

No offense mate, but you shouldn't make any judgements after a few hours of play, because the results will be heavily affected by the quality of opposition that you encounter.

You played more from a distance to weaken opposition? What competent stamina build would let you do that? The second the distance between him and you exceeds 5m an immediate crit rush follows. If you could fight at a distance, then your opponent was either a potato, or a ranged magicka build.

The_Duke · September 2016

Sharee wrote: »

The_Duke wrote: »

With all the uproar lately regarding the "balance" in resources I decided to do a test for myself. But first a little background.

Since console launch I have only played heavy armor characters. My main is a sap tank and my alt is a heavy stamblade. The past few months has seen my sap tank put on the the shelf while I destroyed people with my stamblade. I wondered if I made a similar set up for my sap tank could it still be successful?

So I grinded mats and glyphs and set about. Making my armor. My stamblade set up and sap tank do not use BR, Viper or veli. No cheese sets here.

Once I had my gear the numbers were almost the same. Stam. 3900 WD buffed, 34000 stam, 30000hp. Sap. 3700Sp, 37000mag, 32000 hp.

While the numbers were almost identical with almost identical CP layouts just adjusted for mag instead of stam, the difference was striking.

I played for a few hours on my magblade and the damage was pitifull compared to my stamblade. My survival was great but the burst was missing. Later I logged onto my stamblade and people melted before my eyes.

Thats when I realized that I was trying to play my sap tank like an in your face burst stam build(which it isnt). A few Cc's and my sap tank was dead where my stam build could break free and roll dodge all day long while still applying pressure.

I relogged back on my magblade and played more from a distance. Used cripple with mercilous resolve and swallow soul to weaken the opposition and only go for the burst when the time was right.

The moral of the story is once I played to the strengths of the mag build I excelled. The minute I stopped trying to force a square peg down a round hole I started getting the same K/D as my stamblade. Even with even stats I couldn't play the same way.

Play to your builds strengths people. There will never be balance no matter how many QQ threads we make. You just have to play the role you love as is and find a way to make it work.

Regards,
The Duke.

No offense mate, but you shouldn't make any judgements after a few hours of play, because the results will be heavily affected by the quality of opposition that you encounter.

You played more from a distance to weaken opposition? What competent stamina build would let you do that? The second the distance between him and you exceeds 5m an immediate crit rush follows. If you could fight at a distance, then your opponent was either a potato, or a ranged magicka build.

Ive played a sap tank for over a year so I have a really good idea of how its played. Its not based on a few hours. 1 year plus on sap tank and 3 months on stam blade. I was having to adjust to not being able to LA/ surprise attack/ bash weave for burst and not having the empower from ambush. I had to adjust my play to suit my strengths and limitations.

As for your ranged comment. Anyone foolish enough to crit rush me got feared and killed or feared and I cloaked to restart the fight.

Calboy · September 2016

A huge issue for me and my mdk is not only my limited stam pool but the fact my light/ heavy attacks do no damage. This makes up close and personal combat very very hard compared to my stam counterparts.

Waffennacht · September 2016

Also you used NBs.

They have excellent abilities for both stam and mag, with great passives.

I say use mDK vs StamDK and mSorc vs stamSorc

Rykmaar · September 2016

Waffennacht wrote: »

Also you used NBs.

They have excellent abilities for both stam and mag, with great passives.

I say use mDK vs StamDK and mSorc vs stamSorc

mDK vs sDK would be a much, much better comparison point, yes.

Same with stamsorc vs magsorc.

Magplar vs stamplar I don't think would be as good since both are in a really good (OP with mag) place right now.

thankyourat · September 2016

Waffennacht wrote: »

Also you used NBs.

They have excellent abilities for both stam and mag, with great passives.

I say use mDK vs StamDK and mSorc vs stamSorc

Actually magsorc is really good. magblade is just a poor man's version of a magsorc right now. Mag dk vs stam dk would be night and day though. The problem isn't that magicka is bad, the problem is stam is just too good. they don't have to give up anything they can have all important aspects of combat without sacrifice.

The_Duke · September 2016

Waffennacht wrote: »

Also you used NBs.

They have excellent abilities for both stam and mag, with great passives.

I say use mDK vs StamDK and mSorc vs stamSorc

I agree with you 100% some classes are definitely underperforming between specs especially mag DK. My point is that despite the clear imbalances not all builds, even if on a level playing field, will use the same tactics successfully.

You have to cater to combat the meta if you aren't willing to embrace it.

The_Duke · September 2016

Rykmaar wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Also you used NBs.

They have excellent abilities for both stam and mag, with great passives.

I say use mDK vs StamDK and mSorc vs stamSorc

mDK vs sDK would be a much, much better comparison point, yes.

Same with stamsorc vs magsorc.

Magplar vs stamplar I don't think would be as good since both are in a really good (OP with mag) place right now.

I agree on the DK issue but I can't get behind the mag/stam sorc.

I can't believe that all it took to wreck a class that over performaning was to reduce damage shields to 6 seconds. Thats a L2P issue on sorcs. If someone needed shields stacking to win they obviously weren't that good of a sorc.

Night blade cloak has been nerfed into the ground yet people still wreck face with them.

Sharee · September 2016

The_Duke wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

The_Duke wrote: »

With all the uproar lately regarding the "balance" in resources I decided to do a test for myself. But first a little background.

Since console launch I have only played heavy armor characters. My main is a sap tank and my alt is a heavy stamblade. The past few months has seen my sap tank put on the the shelf while I destroyed people with my stamblade. I wondered if I made a similar set up for my sap tank could it still be successful?

So I grinded mats and glyphs and set about. Making my armor. My stamblade set up and sap tank do not use BR, Viper or veli. No cheese sets here.

Once I had my gear the numbers were almost the same. Stam. 3900 WD buffed, 34000 stam, 30000hp. Sap. 3700Sp, 37000mag, 32000 hp.

While the numbers were almost identical with almost identical CP layouts just adjusted for mag instead of stam, the difference was striking.

I played for a few hours on my magblade and the damage was pitifull compared to my stamblade. My survival was great but the burst was missing. Later I logged onto my stamblade and people melted before my eyes.

Thats when I realized that I was trying to play my sap tank like an in your face burst stam build(which it isnt). A few Cc's and my sap tank was dead where my stam build could break free and roll dodge all day long while still applying pressure.

I relogged back on my magblade and played more from a distance. Used cripple with mercilous resolve and swallow soul to weaken the opposition and only go for the burst when the time was right.

The moral of the story is once I played to the strengths of the mag build I excelled. The minute I stopped trying to force a square peg down a round hole I started getting the same K/D as my stamblade. Even with even stats I couldn't play the same way.

Play to your builds strengths people. There will never be balance no matter how many QQ threads we make. You just have to play the role you love as is and find a way to make it work.

Regards,
The Duke.

No offense mate, but you shouldn't make any judgements after a few hours of play, because the results will be heavily affected by the quality of opposition that you encounter.

You played more from a distance to weaken opposition? What competent stamina build would let you do that? The second the distance between him and you exceeds 5m an immediate crit rush follows. If you could fight at a distance, then your opponent was either a potato, or a ranged magicka build.

Ive played a sap tank for over a year so I have a really good idea of how its played. Its not based on a few hours. 1 year plus on sap tank and 3 months on stam blade. I was having to adjust to not being able to LA/ surprise attack/ bash weave for burst and not having the empower from ambush. I had to adjust my play to suit my strengths and limitations.

As for your ranged comment. Anyone foolish enough to crit rush me got feared and killed or feared and I cloaked to restart the fight.

I didn't mean to imply that you do not know how to play a sap tank, just that you need more time to evaluate how a sap tank performs in current meta. If you did not meet any of the top-performing stamina builds in those hours where you played, it would be easy to get the impression that you're doing fine.

Did none of your opponents use a detection potion? They can even come with CC immunity attached. Fear->cloak would not work on such one. And 15 secs is about 3 times as long as these guys need to kill someone.

Joy_Division · September 2016

The_Duke wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

The_Duke wrote: »

With all the uproar lately regarding the "balance" in resources I decided to do a test for myself. But first a little background.

Since console launch I have only played heavy armor characters. My main is a sap tank and my alt is a heavy stamblade. The past few months has seen my sap tank put on the the shelf while I destroyed people with my stamblade. I wondered if I made a similar set up for my sap tank could it still be successful?

So I grinded mats and glyphs and set about. Making my armor. My stamblade set up and sap tank do not use BR, Viper or veli. No cheese sets here.

Once I had my gear the numbers were almost the same. Stam. 3900 WD buffed, 34000 stam, 30000hp. Sap. 3700Sp, 37000mag, 32000 hp.

While the numbers were almost identical with almost identical CP layouts just adjusted for mag instead of stam, the difference was striking.

I played for a few hours on my magblade and the damage was pitifull compared to my stamblade. My survival was great but the burst was missing. Later I logged onto my stamblade and people melted before my eyes.

Thats when I realized that I was trying to play my sap tank like an in your face burst stam build(which it isnt). A few Cc's and my sap tank was dead where my stam build could break free and roll dodge all day long while still applying pressure.

I relogged back on my magblade and played more from a distance. Used cripple with mercilous resolve and swallow soul to weaken the opposition and only go for the burst when the time was right.

The moral of the story is once I played to the strengths of the mag build I excelled. The minute I stopped trying to force a square peg down a round hole I started getting the same K/D as my stamblade. Even with even stats I couldn't play the same way.

Play to your builds strengths people. There will never be balance no matter how many QQ threads we make. You just have to play the role you love as is and find a way to make it work.

Regards,
The Duke.

No offense mate, but you shouldn't make any judgements after a few hours of play, because the results will be heavily affected by the quality of opposition that you encounter.

You played more from a distance to weaken opposition? What competent stamina build would let you do that? The second the distance between him and you exceeds 5m an immediate crit rush follows. If you could fight at a distance, then your opponent was either a potato, or a ranged magicka build.

As for your ranged comment. Anyone foolish enough to crit rush me got feared and killed or feared and I cloaked to restart the fight.

LOL. I'm sure the 2H dizzying blow spammers are trembling in the boots know that you'll fear them if they follow your advice and play to the strengths of their characters.

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO · September 2016

I know I've said this in a million threads so far, but wouldn't the Magicka vs. Stamina meta (along with racial choices, etc.) be on its way to being fixed if soft caps were to come back?

I can't help but think that the wild fluctuations we're seeing every time a new update/ability/gear set drops would even out if there were some limits to how high stats could climb.

Just my 2 Septims.

The_Duke · September 2016

Sharee wrote: »

The_Duke wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

The_Duke wrote: »

With all the uproar lately regarding the "balance" in resources I decided to do a test for myself. But first a little background.

Since console launch I have only played heavy armor characters. My main is a sap tank and my alt is a heavy stamblade. The past few months has seen my sap tank put on the the shelf while I destroyed people with my stamblade. I wondered if I made a similar set up for my sap tank could it still be successful?

So I grinded mats and glyphs and set about. Making my armor. My stamblade set up and sap tank do not use BR, Viper or veli. No cheese sets here.

Once I had my gear the numbers were almost the same. Stam. 3900 WD buffed, 34000 stam, 30000hp. Sap. 3700Sp, 37000mag, 32000 hp.

While the numbers were almost identical with almost identical CP layouts just adjusted for mag instead of stam, the difference was striking.

I played for a few hours on my magblade and the damage was pitifull compared to my stamblade. My survival was great but the burst was missing. Later I logged onto my stamblade and people melted before my eyes.

Thats when I realized that I was trying to play my sap tank like an in your face burst stam build(which it isnt). A few Cc's and my sap tank was dead where my stam build could break free and roll dodge all day long while still applying pressure.

I relogged back on my magblade and played more from a distance. Used cripple with mercilous resolve and swallow soul to weaken the opposition and only go for the burst when the time was right.

The moral of the story is once I played to the strengths of the mag build I excelled. The minute I stopped trying to force a square peg down a round hole I started getting the same K/D as my stamblade. Even with even stats I couldn't play the same way.

Play to your builds strengths people. There will never be balance no matter how many QQ threads we make. You just have to play the role you love as is and find a way to make it work.

Regards,
The Duke.

I didn't mean to imply that you do not know how to play a sap tank, just that you need more time to evaluate how a sap tank performs in current meta. If you did not meet any of the top-performing stamina builds in those hours where you played, it would be easy to get the impression that you're doing fine.

Did none of your opponents use a detection potion? They can even come with CC immunity attached. Fear->cloak would not work on such one. And 15 secs is about 3 times as long as these guys need to kill someone.

None used detection pots. In fact I seldom see anyone use them.

The only stam meta build I had trouble with was one stam DK who just couldn't die. He couldn't kill me either so I just cloaked and left after a few minutes as it was a stalemate.

The hardest fight 1v1 I ran into with my sap tank was against a magicka nightblade using an ice staff. The constant snare and roots were painfull to deal with. The lack of stam from being CC'd killed me the most. Its that way with all magicka builds.

I can run out of magicka on my stamblade and live, but if I run out of stam on my sap tank Im dead.

Sharee · September 2016

The_Duke wrote: »

I can run out of magicka on my stamblade and live, but if I run out of stam on my sap tank Im dead.

Yep, that's pretty much the core of the imbalance.

As for the detect potions, i am surprised so few players use them. I am using them as my standard magicka potions on my mDK, so i am constantly getting the detection as a side-effect of simply restoring magicka during a fight.

xellink · September 2016

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO wrote: »

I know I've said this in a million threads so far, but wouldn't the Magicka vs. Stamina meta (along with racial choices, etc.) be on its way to being fixed if soft caps were to come back?

Everyone would be forced to play hybrids and people will complain that pure builds are GIMPed. We need to have hybrids, i agree. We need balance between stamina and magicka first, then add mechanics to ration number of hybrids. That way we can have a diverse healthy collection of players from all groups.

Pinja · September 2016

The_Duke wrote: »

Rykmaar wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Also you used NBs.

They have excellent abilities for both stam and mag, with great passives.

I say use mDK vs StamDK and mSorc vs stamSorc

mDK vs sDK would be a much, much better comparison point, yes.

Same with stamsorc vs magsorc.

Magplar vs stamplar I don't think would be as good since both are in a really good (OP with mag) place right now.

I agree on the DK issue but I can't get behind the mag/stam sorc.

I can't believe that all it took to wreck a class that over performaning was to reduce damage shields to 6 seconds. Thats a L2P issue on sorcs. If someone needed shields stacking to win they obviously weren't that good of a sorc.

Night blade cloak has been nerfed into the ground yet people still wreck face with them.

As a Sorcerer I can not agree with this conversation in the slightest. Magic sorcs haven't over performed since their shields got cut 50% back when Imp. droped & nightblades took over the world. Just that old players didn't get those thoughts out of their head, & now Magic sorcs have taken another drastic cut this time nearly killing it off. Which is why such a large population is now recognizing this general magic/stam imbalance as the main magic class sorcerers looked to play has been cut down to nothing.
Taunt shield stacking but that was & is all the surviveability of the class. Like what are they going to do without a life?
Well be dead, & that's exactly we're the class is.
Your story made it sound like your a returning player, as happens. Thinking magic sorcs are good, considering stam sorc the latter... But that means you missed Dark brotherhood. Stam sorcs are one of the most recognized competitors in pvp right now. Ya the old sorc didn't have much going, but these guys got anti nightblade built into the resistance. I myself have made a Storc & it flys threw things as the name implys. Doesn't have as much burst as a stam-blade, but it has provided a way better option for thousands of displaced sorcs without a shield. I put together a survey & it turns out arguably the best PvP magic sorc on xbox made the switch as well.
No doubts to be had from a PvP stand point, stam is better then magic. You CC that crazy charging gap closer the frame after he CC's you, the lag & the expectancy is in his favor. Know what else is in his favor? The attribute bar, his has a brake free, yours got a fake free. From my short time playing stam I've learned Dizzying swing continues on to invisible targets until they walk out of 'LoS' or get hit. One may cloak, attacker may guess, & you'll be knocked into oblivion, CC'd, & murdered.

The_Duke · September 2016

[/quote]

LOL. I'm sure the 2H dizzying blow spammers are trembling in the boots know that you'll fear them if they follow your advice and play to the strengths of their characters.[/quote]

Wrecking blow is the easiest spammable ability to counter. You just roll or walk right through them lol.

Thanks for your imput. With a personality as great as yours I'm sure you're a hit at parties and with the ladies.

Pinja · September 2016

The_Duke wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

The_Duke wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

The_Duke wrote: »

With all the uproar lately regarding the "balance" in resources I decided to do a test for myself. But first a little background.

Since console launch I have only played heavy armor characters. My main is a sap tank and my alt is a heavy stamblade. The past few months has seen my sap tank put on the the shelf while I destroyed people with my stamblade. I wondered if I made a similar set up for my sap tank could it still be successful?

So I grinded mats and glyphs and set about. Making my armor. My stamblade set up and sap tank do not use BR, Viper or veli. No cheese sets here.

Once I had my gear the numbers were almost the same. Stam. 3900 WD buffed, 34000 stam, 30000hp. Sap. 3700Sp, 37000mag, 32000 hp.

While the numbers were almost identical with almost identical CP layouts just adjusted for mag instead of stam, the difference was striking.

I played for a few hours on my magblade and the damage was pitifull compared to my stamblade. My survival was great but the burst was missing. Later I logged onto my stamblade and people melted before my eyes.

Thats when I realized that I was trying to play my sap tank like an in your face burst stam build(which it isnt). A few Cc's and my sap tank was dead where my stam build could break free and roll dodge all day long while still applying pressure.

I relogged back on my magblade and played more from a distance. Used cripple with mercilous resolve and swallow soul to weaken the opposition and only go for the burst when the time was right.

The moral of the story is once I played to the strengths of the mag build I excelled. The minute I stopped trying to force a square peg down a round hole I started getting the same K/D as my stamblade. Even with even stats I couldn't play the same way.

Play to your builds strengths people. There will never be balance no matter how many QQ threads we make. You just have to play the role you love as is and find a way to make it work.

Regards,
The Duke.

No offense mate, but you shouldn't make any judgements after a few hours of play, because the results will be heavily affected by the quality of opposition that you encounter.

You played more from a distance to weaken opposition? What competent stamina build would let you do that? The second the distance between him and you exceeds 5m an immediate crit rush follows. If you could fight at a distance, then your opponent was either a potato, or a ranged magicka build.

As for your ranged comment. Anyone foolish enough to crit rush me got feared and killed or feared and I cloaked to restart the fight.

LOL. I'm sure the 2H dizzying blow spammers are trembling in the boots know that you'll fear them if they follow your advice and play to the strengths of their characters.

Wrecking blow is the easiest spammable ability to counter. You just roll or walk right through them lol.

Thanks for your imput. With a personality as great as yours I'm sure you're a hit at parties and with the ladies.

Ah ya, playing to strengths of your magic class, using all dat stam'na to roll dodge threw your opponent, Or playing that range so well ya walk right threw em...

The_Duke · September 2016

Pinja wrote: »

The_Duke wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

The_Duke wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

The_Duke wrote: »

With all the uproar lately regarding the "balance" in resources I decided to do a test for myself. But first a little background.

Since console launch I have only played heavy armor characters. My main is a sap tank and my alt is a heavy stamblade. The past few months has seen my sap tank put on the the shelf while I destroyed people with my stamblade. I wondered if I made a similar set up for my sap tank could it still be successful?

So I grinded mats and glyphs and set about. Making my armor. My stamblade set up and sap tank do not use BR, Viper or veli. No cheese sets here.

Once I had my gear the numbers were almost the same. Stam. 3900 WD buffed, 34000 stam, 30000hp. Sap. 3700Sp, 37000mag, 32000 hp.

While the numbers were almost identical with almost identical CP layouts just adjusted for mag instead of stam, the difference was striking.

I played for a few hours on my magblade and the damage was pitifull compared to my stamblade. My survival was great but the burst was missing. Later I logged onto my stamblade and people melted before my eyes.

Thats when I realized that I was trying to play my sap tank like an in your face burst stam build(which it isnt). A few Cc's and my sap tank was dead where my stam build could break free and roll dodge all day long while still applying pressure.

I relogged back on my magblade and played more from a distance. Used cripple with mercilous resolve and swallow soul to weaken the opposition and only go for the burst when the time was right.

The moral of the story is once I played to the strengths of the mag build I excelled. The minute I stopped trying to force a square peg down a round hole I started getting the same K/D as my stamblade. Even with even stats I couldn't play the same way.

Play to your builds strengths people. There will never be balance no matter how many QQ threads we make. You just have to play the role you love as is and find a way to make it work.

Regards,
The Duke.

No offense mate, but you shouldn't make any judgements after a few hours of play, because the results will be heavily affected by the quality of opposition that you encounter.

You played more from a distance to weaken opposition? What competent stamina build would let you do that? The second the distance between him and you exceeds 5m an immediate crit rush follows. If you could fight at a distance, then your opponent was either a potato, or a ranged magicka build.

As for your ranged comment. Anyone foolish enough to crit rush me got feared and killed or feared and I cloaked to restart the fight.

LOL. I'm sure the 2H dizzying blow spammers are trembling in the boots know that you'll fear them if they follow your advice and play to the strengths of their characters.

Wrecking blow is the easiest spammable ability to counter. You just roll or walk right through them lol.

Thanks for your imput. With a personality as great as yours I'm sure you're a hit at parties and with the ladies.

Ah ya, playing to strengths of your magic class, using all dat stam'na to roll dodge threw your opponent, Or playing that range so well ya walk right threw em...

Your comment makes little sense and is simply to antagonise.

Id prefer to spend some stamina to roll dodge through rather than get caught up in the WB spam. You act like magicka classes have zero stamina. If you read my post you would realize Im a tank and used to stamina managment, and if I'm at range I won't get hit.

All your points are invalid.

Jsmalls · September 2016

I prefer fighting stamina players over Magicka players, but I suppose it's the way my build is setup.

Regardless, Mag Sorc till the end.

Stoopid_Nwah · September 2016

A lot of us stuck with mag builds and are doing relatively fine. I know I still feel okay on my magblade...the problem comes when scrubs can play stam with a few gear sets and wreck people solely because of that set gear.

And it is a pain to try to play ranged with all of the gap closing lol.

Waffennacht · September 2016

Stoopid_Nwah wrote: »

A lot of us stuck with mag builds and are doing relatively fine. I know I still feel okay on my magblade...the problem comes when scrubs can play stam with a few gear sets and wreck people solely because of that set gear.

And it is a pain to try to play ranged with all of the gap closing lol.

This is very accurate. Long ago before all this I posted about set differences (finally) people are seeing it (because they decided to drop some more insane stam sets)

I decided not to stick with my mag sorc after over a year because I had no options. Not only that, no options in the foreseeable future.

With a stam build I can choose between not only so many armors with viable interesting effects, i get to choose between not only what weapon lines I get, but the weapons themselves. Maul, Axe, and Sword all have good PvP viable effects on 2h and DW. Frost and (now) Lightning get bonked.

I just have a better time with stamina

Stoopid_Nwah · September 2016

Waffennacht wrote: »

Stoopid_Nwah wrote: »

A lot of us stuck with mag builds and are doing relatively fine. I know I still feel okay on my magblade...the problem comes when scrubs can play stam with a few gear sets and wreck people solely because of that set gear.

And it is a pain to try to play ranged with all of the gap closing lol.

This is very accurate. Long ago before all this I posted about set differences (finally) people are seeing it (because they decided to drop some more insane stam sets)

I decided not to stick with my mag sorc after over a year because I had no options. Not only that, no options in the foreseeable future.

With a stam build I can choose between not only so many armors with viable interesting effects, i get to choose between not only what weapon lines I get, but the weapons themselves. Maul, Axe, and Sword all have good PvP viable effects on 2h and DW. Frost and (now) Lightning get bonked.

I just have a better time with stamina

Yeah it's pretty sad...and will only be getting worse. I keep thinking I should switch to stam, but I just can't bring myself to do it. I find the playstyle so incredibly boring lol.

But it's true about the weapons. I'm bummed about the Lightning "fix"...just got a sharpened maelstrom lightning staff lol. Oh well, still works great in pvp.

The_Duke · September 2016

Waffennacht wrote: »

Stoopid_Nwah wrote: »

A lot of us stuck with mag builds and are doing relatively fine. I know I still feel okay on my magblade...the problem comes when scrubs can play stam with a few gear sets and wreck people solely because of that set gear.

And it is a pain to try to play ranged with all of the gap closing lol.

This is very accurate. Long ago before all this I posted about set differences (finally) people are seeing it (because they decided to drop some more insane stam sets)

I decided not to stick with my mag sorc after over a year because I had no options. Not only that, no options in the foreseeable future.

With a stam build I can choose between not only so many armors with viable interesting effects, i get to choose between not only what weapon lines I get, but the weapons themselves. Maul, Axe, and Sword all have good PvP viable effects on 2h and DW. Frost and (now) Lightning get bonked.

I just have a better time with stamina

I agree with you about the sets and I wish things were different. There has been an obvious lean towards stam. Its undeniable. Its unfortunate that many people have to give up their builds in order to stay competive.

Jar_Ek · September 2016

People seem to forget that mmo balance is
a. Mythical
In that it is never actually achieved between resources, classes, races, sets, etc. There will always be a build or group of builds that out performs anything else - and conversely a group that consistently underperforms.

b. Cyclical
Which class is on top and which is on the bottom changes over time and when one class or resource becomes obviously dominant then the balance begins to tilt the other way. For example prior to IC and DB, stamina sorcerers were the rock bottom in pve and pvp and were avoided by all but a handful of die-hards, now thanks to some class tweaks and alot of stamina and magicka changes, they are near the top of the pile. This will not last, zos will make more balance changes and things will change.

However, back on topic, I suspect zos are aware of the imbalances and are pondering how to rectify the situation... unfortunately I suspect the means of rectification, based on past tweaks, will be a wrecking ball approach where they shoot straight past balance and into OP magicka in some way, shape, or form. I implore @ZOS_GinaBruno, et al to apply incremental changes with PTS feedback rather than a single monstrous hit of changes when they come.

Cronopoly · September 2016

The_Duke wrote: »

I can't believe that all it took to wreck a class that over performaning was to reduce damage shields to 6 seconds. Thats a L2P issue on sorcs. If someone needed shields stacking to win they obviously weren't that good of a sorc.

Some of us would list a couple things that dive a little deeper in practice. We don't feel we are bringing this up without experiencing it firsthand. :'(

1) It was not just shield duration on it's own. It was Tactical Pressure removal in combat. When fighting as a Sorc with longer shield duration, if you played offensively well IE @#%ing competing !!! to the point where you got the jump on your opponent, and your shield was not fully diminished "you could keep the pressure on and possibly finish your opponent"

With the duration Nerf you are constantly refreshing your shield every 3rd or 4th cast as a miss cast means death. guaranteed.

With the shield nerfs as designed, Magicka classes were "exposed" to now being very weak to Core PVP mechanics while Stamina classes synergize very well with:
CCbreak
Dodge Roll/Evade
Sprint
Block

2) New Stam Burst Armor sets just outperform "Delayed Dot", or 15-20% Proc chance magicka classes in the dust.

3) Ultimate Nerf for Magicka classes - Losing a Magicka based Dawnbreaker morph. (and everyone just blocking magicka based Meteor, and walking out of it. Also it has a nice Warning. Where's the warning for Dawnbreaker? None it's pretty instant.

So yes the shield Nerf did directly affect PVP in your face combat greatly and Stamina armor sets went off like the space shuttle, and loss of a strong PVP Ultimate.

Note: Many of these factors also apply to NB's, & DK of course. Templars are obviously in a great place due to heals and have NO complaints. They currently have the only spell in Magicka that gives enemies pause. The Beam.

Lord-Otto · September 2016

And also, along with the nerf to many magicka aspects, came the dawn of Eternal Hunt, Well-Fitted and physical Dawnbreaker.

Regarding your suggested counters to Dizzying Swing, you're wrong. You can't afford to dodge a spammable dps on a mag toon. You need that stam to break free and maybe dodge an ultimate or a burst. You can't walk through it. You're supposed to keep a distance, as Pinja already mentioned. The swing also doesn't slow you down, so with an absurd 8m range, you can just backpedal to never let anyone walk through you. On top of that, mag players are always snared, especially by Caltrops. Stam builds have Shuffle and easy Major Expedition. They are proven to be more mobile, it's even intended by the devs. So saying outspacing is a valid counter to the mobile class is a very ridiculous thing to say. I've heard all these arguments a year ago, when Wrecking Blow was a hot topic. You obviously are coming back and are lacking the experience that us other players have acquired here. I don't mean to insult, but that's just how things are. Play more frequently and you'll see. That being said, I think Dizzying Swing is in a good spot right now and the problems come rather from the stam meta as a whole.

I also want to add to Cronopoly's list how much stronger the longer shields in group play were. You could keep up the pressure when not being hit, since shields didn't just run out. Having to re-cast them so often now is a massive blow to your group's dps. You might as well fight solo in this regard, as you have to do the exact same thing. Compare this to a stamblade spamming the already longer-ranged Focused Aim. When something hits you, you just dodge a few times back into the crowd of your buddies. Oh, and you can cancel offensive moves with dodgeroll, too!

The_Duke · September 2016

Lord-Otto wrote: »

And also, along with the nerf to many magicka aspects, came the dawn of Eternal Hunt, Well-Fitted and physical Dawnbreaker.

Regarding your suggested counters to Dizzying Swing, you're wrong. You can't afford to dodge a spammable dps on a mag toon. You need that stam to break free and maybe dodge an ultimate or a burst. You can't walk through it. You're supposed to keep a distance, as Pinja already mentioned. The swing also doesn't slow you down, so with an absurd 8m range, you can just backpedal to never let anyone walk through you. On top of that, mag players are always snared, especially by Caltrops. Stam builds have Shuffle and easy Major Expedition. They are proven to be more mobile, it's even intended by the devs. So saying outspacing is a valid counter to the mobile class is a very ridiculous thing to say. I've heard all these arguments a year ago, when Wrecking Blow was a hot topic. You obviously are coming back and are lacking the experience that us other players have acquired here. I don't mean to insult, but that's just how things are. Play more frequently and you'll see. That being said, I think Dizzying Swing is in a good spot right now and the problems come rather from the stam meta as a whole.

I also want to add to Cronopoly's list how much stronger the longer shields in group play were. You could keep up the pressure when not being hit, since shields didn't just run out. Having to re-cast them so often now is a massive blow to your group's dps. You might as well fight solo in this regard, as you have to do the exact same thing. Compare this to a stamblade spamming the already longer-ranged Focused Aim. When something hits you, you just dodge a few times back into the crowd of your buddies. Oh, and you can cancel offensive moves with dodgeroll, too!

Im not "coming back" I play every day for over a year, all I do is PVP as running the same dungeons over and over is boring. And I do roll through a player spamming WB because if I dont Im screwed pure and simple. A roll or CC then I reset the fight. As a nightblade all I need is a few light attacks and Im back up in stam.

Remember I'm a full time tank, so I'm very aware of stamina management. Just because a DPS doesnt know how to manage stamina don't think that all magicka classes are clueless. You have to make the right choice with when to use your limited stamina. I block the first attack and make my adjustment based on the case of the current fight.

For the record, I 100% believe that stamina is over tuned. Read my OP. Im just tired of reading about how someones feelings got hurt because a video game decided to change its focus.

Learn to adapt or join the stamina class

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO · September 2016

xellink wrote: »

Everyone would be forced to play hybrids and people will complain that pure builds are GIMPed. We need to have hybrids, i agree. We need balance between stamina and magicka first, then add mechanics to ration number of hybrids. That way we can have a diverse healthy collection of players from all groups.

That's a fair point, but as it stands now there are very few limits on numbers, which is allowing things to spiral a bit out of control on the top end.

What would you think about soft caps that were set a bit higher than previously, but specifically tweaked to keep things from flying away at the upper end of the spectrum? That way, folks can play the race they want, they can still run high burst or heavy sustain or high durability, but they can't really cram it all into one or two toxic builds. And a lot of really interesting builds and gear sets that are normally viewed as gimped suddenly become viable again.

And once that's nailed down, the devs have a more balanced framework within which to add to the hybrid toybox. Maybe? I'd love to hear your thoughts.

xellink · September 2016

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO wrote: »

That's a fair point, but as it stands now there are very few limits on numbers, which is allowing things to spiral a bit out of control on the top end.

What would you think about soft caps that were set a bit higher than previously, but specifically tweaked to keep things from flying away at the upper end of the spectrum? That way, folks can play the race they want, they can still run high burst or heavy sustain or high durability, but they can't really cram it all into one or two toxic builds. And a lot of really interesting builds and gear sets that are normally viewed as gimped suddenly become viable again.

And once that's nailed down, the devs have a more balanced framework within which to add to the hybrid toybox. Maybe? I'd love to hear your thoughts.

@milesrodneymcneely2_ESO

My reply can extend many pages as I was very active in high end PVPing and raising suggestions in other games. I shall quote myself form another recent thread about Pelinal's.

xellink wrote: »

Disagree. There are many games with mechanics that allow hybrids without soft-capping.

Example 1
DND
Take for instance DnD
1) Arcane spells that buff physical damage - Bull's strength, cat's grace
2) Defensive bonuses from non-physical stats: Artful Swordplay, etc
3) Prestige classes
4) Hybrid races
5) Armors negating hybrid penalty
Initially there is some form of soft cap but its pretty much non-existent once you hit epic and prestige classes.

In DND 1-2E, you couldn't play hybrid unless you picked a Paladin or Ranger or hybrid class.
It took 30 years for DnD to evolve from a basic game to one that supports build diversity which is 3E which is so good that they had to refine it to make it 3.5E. It took another 10 years for it to be further morphed to the current state: 5E.

Example 2
Guild wars 1:
GW1 had a soft cap... but it was pretty much non-existent there were too many specialised builds that discouraged hybrid play (Ranger spike, necro spike etc... first 2 years had really bad balance).
1) Certain skills still allowed hybrid play such as: Illusion Weaponry.
2) Subclassing
3) Armor insignias (not relevant to ESO)
4) PVP centric balancing
5) Pressure, draggy, long but intelligent fights.
6) Quick revive system (2s) up to instacast mechanics
7) Spells that buff physical attacks (I can't emphasise this enough, eg Conjure Flame)

IT took about 2-3 years before balanced builds became prominent in GW1 which was PVP centric. Initially the game had balanced teams rather than balanced builds, consisting of 2 warriors, 2 monks, 2 DPS, 1 runner and 1 filler. Often the runner had to run a hybrid build because of lane split.

Example 3
DOTA
Hybrid class: Morphling: able to switch from strength to agility. Having lots of HP but no damage makes you an easily ignorable target, and having high damage but low HP makes you a glass cannon.

Almost every class in DOTA is either strength, agility or intelligence... so... Morphling is one of the few exceptions.

Example 4
If you like programming, D20 systems or play MUD games:
1) Remort system
2) varies from game-game but similar to DnD

Balance in MUD games are simpler... everything is like pen and paper. They don't have to fix things like graphics bugs so almost all resources are dedicated to number crunching. Hybrid builds did take a while as well, and considering how long it took for most players to remort... probably a few years at least.

Disadvantages of soft capping
Take for instance guild wars 2: Everyone is forced to bring a heal. Everyone is forced to play as a hybrid of sorts. Everyone is forced to have weapon slots.

Things ESO done badly:
Poor skill mechanics. No skill seem to scale off health (?damage shields?), which is a shame.
Skills that don't work well such as gap closers.
One-hand weapon/spell not implemented (?yet?)

Things ESO has done well:
1. Having 3 attributes.
2. Hybrid armor: Pelinals as a good first-step. Undaunted armor is the weaker younger brother. More will be implemented
3. Radiant ward: scales to HP
4. Dueling
5. Hybrid classes -> all classes can use weapon skills and magicka class skills. (as opposed to fighter or rogue in DnD)

Things that can be realistically implemented in ESO
1. Scale elemental weapon enchantments to magicka. Poison does not need to follow suit.
2. Implementation of type-resistances/mixed-mob dungeons, for example a mob that resists all physical damage and another that resists all elemental damage. A hybrid build will always be more consistent in this regard. A team can otherwise bring one-stam and one-magicka DPS which leads us to:
3. Lane-splitting in dungeons, forcing players to become self-sufficient.
4. Health attribute skill morphs
5. PVP centric balancing and more intelligent AI in PVE to encourage support/utility skills
6. Punishment system for non-deliberate damage/overdamage
7. Organised small scale PVP 3v3 etc.
8. Weapon magicka morphs: make it limited such as one-handed skill line.
9. Spells that buff physical stats by percentage (See DND section)
10. More armors and skills negating hybrid penalty.
11. Stat-stealing mechanics
12. Increase power of utility skills, lower damage on ALL skills. This will drag fights longer.
13. Decrease sustainability for spike damage.
14. 1-2 Non-sustainable but powerful melee magicka skills, these can work as finishers for stam/hybrid users.
15. Hybrid morph of Balance/Equilibrium -> stamina scales to magicka return, magicka scales to stamina return etc. (this one feels a bit forced)
16. Solo/small group-backdoor fort mechanics - Increased number of NPC (Alarm trigger system) according to how many player enters via the backdoor (narrow tunnel or corridor). Each NPC does AOE damage and have different resistances. Eg. NPC 1 resistant to elemental, NPC 2 resistance to physical. Collectively, when people zerg in the narrow corridor, they will face zergs of AOE NPCs.

There are many more ways that hybrid builds can be implemented while promoting diversity in ESO. Hence, I disagree with your comment which denies the fact that more can be done. ESO is a relatively young game. It took those games i named many years (DND 30 years, GW1 2-3 years) before hybrid builds became adopted. Even after that, a lot of refinements had to be made. I think the best years of ESO has yet to come...

Basically I have proposed 16 small steps to implement hybrids without breaking balance. Due to the length of the post i am hiding it in spoiler tags.

The key points are:
1. You don't need soft caps to implement hybrids.. soft caps are bad. It funnels people to hybridization and prevents raising the max CP. Once you enter this balance hell-hole, you will never be able to get out of it. I know a lot of MMOs have soft caps but it is failure to think out of the box.
2. The 16 points can be summarised to implementing new mechanics or changing the combat environment.
3. You need to stop thinking in terms of magicka and stamina. There is a third stat there which is health. But we have to start with magicka and stamina because that is where most players are at.

a. Implementing new mechanics
1. Enabling mechanics to reduce penalties to hybridisation. This has to work as a rationing system. Not enough hybrids.. slowly add (a few) armors sets that help them. You don't want to create a sudden spike in number of hybrids. Trying to cap player numbers/playstyle is detrimental to the game, experience and player feedback.
2. Scale elemental weapon enchantments to magicka. IF the above methods don't work, consider adding a new weapon type (one hand + magic is in high demand). Consider DND enchantment mechanics such as the spell 'bull's strength' or 'conjure element type of spells'.
As a very brief example - Ranged options:
Stam users to benefit from poison/physical arrrows, Hybrid users to use elemental bows (arcane archer) and Magicka users to use spells
3. Split the role of spike damage and sustain damage. The change is currently being reflected in the current metagame and many players are not adapting to it yet. A good way to implement this is to tie spike damage with increased mobility and escape mechanics, and tie sustain damage to utility skills and CC moves. The spike damage will consistently try to create advantageous opportunities whilst having advantage to escape while the sustain damage player will be trying to trap the spike damage player. This will greatly reflect the skills of both players despite their builds being different. Sustained will be tied to high HP of course and spike damage tied to stamina.

b. Changing the combat environment
1. Create more types of difficulty walls other than DPS walls.
2. IF all else fails, the best way for force hybridisation is to grant enemy NPCs immunity. For example, mob immunity to physical damage, mob immunity to elemental damage (within the same dungeon). This NPC pattern can be implemented in forts as well, with 'response system' as i described in my above posts.

You have to be very careful in 'allowing' and implement such changes step by step. You don't want to destroy the balance between stamina and magicka with hybrids.

Stoopid_Nwah · September 2016

I always thought it would be cool if each class damage ability had a stam and magicka morph each with unique effects, and each weapon ability had a stam and magicka morph also with unique effects (crit rush could keep its bonus damage and remain physical damage and stampede could be renamed and do magicka damage/look like nerieneth's rush with the ebony blade).