I'd just like to chime in here as another supporter of not linking Kiosk bids and maintenance together.

Today's prolonged server maintenance has caused chaos in Guild Kiosk bidder's lives, with many having to take sick days or time off work, to avoid disappointing their members. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/286500/patch-notes-are-up-how-long-before-we-are-playing-the-game/p1

I, for one, would prefer to see Kiosk Bids and maintenance completely un-linked; put on different days and at saner hours.

silvereyes wrote: »

nagarjunna wrote: »

I, for one, would prefer to see Kiosk Bids and maintenance completely un-linked; put on different days and at saner hours.

There's an ongoing thread about this very issue over here:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/283769/poorly-thought-out-maintenance-times-and-their-conflict-with-economy-mechanics#latest

Yes, I've posted in that thread too. This thread has been going on for 2 years asking for this change as well as other improvements to the guilds. Comments can be in either thread, same purpose.

Wow, servers, still down. I am left thinking too much. Anyone still remember how we were told over a year ago that we'd get some answer as to why maintenance and kiosk bids are the same time? Instead of getting that answer, they've changed maintenance time to take it from being bad to being far worse >.<

We've just passed the 12 hour mark on this, 12 hours I couldn't really sleep or even go for a walk and play pokemon because I HAVE to be HERE watching that little red dot waiting for it to turn blue.

silvereyes wrote: »

Agreed. Was just an FYI, since the other thread is specific to @nagarjunna's expressed concern. I've got both threads favorited.

Thanks, I'm well aware of both threads! I chose to post in this one... although my post would have been just as good there!

So....

I have been given the impression that ZOS is not only very acutely aware of the issue with the maintenance and bid times, but that the ZOS staff is getting upset about the amount and type of feedback they are getting on the issue.

If the type of feedback in these threads is perhaps harsh... Keep in mind that your decisions and system are pressuring anyone who is committed to their guild to going days without sleep. People without sleep are cranky. I was so cranky yesterday it drove me to tears because I just couldn't think straight anymore. We are reasonable adults who want to work WITH ZOS to improve the game and community. We are not always at our best when situations make our lives miserable one day each week.

The most frustrating thing for us, as your community, is the lack of communication about what appears to be either an arbitrary decision with no thought, or a deliberate act to make things difficult for us. We know maintenance times are easily changed. They are often changed for holidays and other reason. We know that bid changeover can be adjusted since different megaserveres change at different times. We understand that the guild and trading system have not been given a high priority compared to new content, but this seems like a simple, easy fix. If there is some reason for this that we can't see, we beg you to talk to us. We dedicate so much time and effort and money as your customers, I think it's reasonable to ask for at least some sort of acknowledgement.

ZOS needs to understand that we may not even be here to enjoy new content if this continues. This situation has removed one day of play time from each week for me, and with the increased bid costs I've had to dedicate more time to raising gold. I don't get to play. My guilds are what keeps me coming back to the game, if I have to give up my guilds to be able to play, I'm more inclined to do as many others have recently done and walk away from the entire thing to play a single player game. This sort of thing can leave such a bad taste for players that once we walk away, we're unlikely to ever return.

Please, give us the sort of respect that you want to get in return, and you'll see a lot of the negativity clear up. We share your passion for this game and this community, and I am on my knees begging you to work with us instead of against us.

I find several things perplexing:

• Why ZOS would meet with trade guild leaders last year for feedback if they didn't value trade guilds?
• Why the silent treatment on the maintenance time change? No acknowledgement. Not even a canned non-answer.
• Trade kiosk locations in new DLC. After hearing traders wanted more kiosks to help combat rising bid prices, they placed the new kiosks in out of the way areas, either far from wayshrines, or spread out. The kiosks are already behind a pay wall. Are they deliberately trying to make it hard for players to sell loot?

All of this adds up to a very confusing picture. Did trade guilds offend someone at ZOS or something?

Calendar would be awesome. Much awesome.

The bid time vs maintenance time is so inexcusable and so easy to change. Just move the bid times to Saturday evening or something - before they ever to maintenance. Shame on ZOS for not dealing with this. Come on guys. @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_MattFiror or anyone else. At least say something. These are volunteers who help make your product great that you're hurting in a real way. At least same something. Anyone else at ZOS - @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom - I realize you guys don't make this decision, but if you could at least comment on it it would be great. This is so stupid and the silence makes it worse. We understand why maintenance has to be at a low pop time - but guild trader bids don't. Fix this now. Guilds are losing leaders because of this. Say something.

To clarify the situation, I have stepped down from guild leadership and CAN NOT take place in this bidding system.

I had previously scheduled a doctor appointment this week. It just happened to coincide with the longest maintenance overlapping bids on record. The end result... the prolonged stress of the situation that ZOS created by the change they initiated 2 months ago.. has been literally making me sick. Real concerns over blood pressure, lack of sleep and other health side effects cannot be ignored. For my own personal health and safety I cannot do this anymore.

The bidding process currently prevents the vast majority of players from being able to participate due to work schedules. Most players who dream of starting or helping trade guilds, simply cannot help with the bid process and the pressure of doing this falls on to a decreasing number who are capable of fitting it in their schedule, many of them only after adjusting work schedules and using sick time. I was one of the lucky few who technically could participate with my work schedule with only minor use of sick time, but it impacted my work performance. In my July-August evaluation at work yesterday, for the first time in 2.5 years, I failed to meet my work goals. I fell asleep during a work meeting on Monday and that was nearly the only sleep I had the entire day.

In addition to the problems with the bid system itself, the stress on the GMs and community has caused increasingly undesirable behavior. Bid spying is absolutely still a thing. I personally received a threat that unless I allowed a shared account of another GM to continue to monitor my guild, then my guild/sister guilds would be targeted. I refused to submit to the demands and the threat was carried out. I hope the rumors are untrue that another GM is already pressuring my replacement saying unless he can prevent a 4th guild, not even part of the ESE family, from bidding in a certain spot then "it will be war." This has to stop. I don't want to hear any more about it and I beg you, the other GMs, to try to regain some of your sanity and stop this sort of behavior.

I have labored 2 years to improve the ZOS community, I passionately love my guild and the success and thanks I've had from them has kept me in this game long after all of my local friends stopped playing. I do not know how long I will continue to play with that portion of the game that made it so rewarding taken away.

I've been in tears on and off all week. I am going to miss the trading community so much. ZOS has managed to create one of the most unique economies in the gaming word with individual stores and guilds, and with only a few minor tweaks it would be amazing and fun for the people involved. I hate to have to leave it and I sincerely hope that future adjustments may help this economy live up to it's potential and restore the FUN to the leadership of it's community, all of whom have been suffering and struggling like myself.

My heart breaks for Elf. While her example is extreme, the maintenance times are having the same negative impact on all competitive trading guilds.

Zeni should be ashamed of themselves for creating this situation. They had a great idea in using guilds to develop the economy rather than the standard (and lazy) global auction house we expect from MMOs. Then they undermined their innovation by actively interfering in participation in the bidding system.

To anyone who says that this shouldn't be taken so seriously because "it's just a game", I counter that commitments to other people are very real. The GMs and officers of trading guilds have made a commitment to the hundreds of players in each guild. The new maintenance times force us to choose between letting our members down, or blowing off real life responsibilities to wait around all day for maintenance to be done.

Then, when the 2-14 hour maintenance is finally done, the bidding favors those with the faster download speeds.

I have always been a big supporter of Zeni's guild-based economy, not anymore. Not anymore. Zeni has snatched defeat from the jaws of victory. If they're not going to change the maintenance or bidding times, just pack it in and launch an AH.

We need a trader system and guild management revamp. ZOS demonstrated they are willing and capable to overhaul systems as they have done in the past. The game economy and social interactions in guild need special attention for the health of any MMO. Since most of the economy is based on guild traders, it is very unhealthy that the majority of leaders from large trading guilds are going through an needless waste of time, effort and stress to keep their guilds functional.

Whilst it is not such a pain to lead a non trading guild, we could certainly use better tools to manage our guilds. Bank tabs would be awesome to offer supplies to new members whilst keeping the good stuff protected and reserved for older members. Everyone profit without anyone being scammed. Withdraw limits also would synergy well with the tabs.

Guild halls is a fantastic idea, not only it provides a safe zone for guild parties, roleplay, events and other things, but also grant us a permanent spot that we can call our own home in our favourite persistent universe. The guild hall could follow a Hearthfire like system where members can contribute with materials, labour or other kind of effort in order to build it. Trophies from raid bosses as well.

A calendar for events where all members could check would solve a lot of problems as well and definately raise participation. Guild history, whilst we have addons that can read up to 6 months, would be nice to have that inbuilt feature. Also state who recruited who, and join date of members. So many things you can do in terms of guild management would definately bring more players in as I'd assume most players pick an online game because they want social interaction of some kind.

In short, fix trading bid times, secrecy and all concerns that are making guild leaders go nuts and even quit. Then, work on improving guild management tools.

Well I watched the stream and the portion relating to the guild bids and maintenance. ZOS says, to paraphrase "It's something that Phil and I are in very hot debates right now. We want to make sure that everybody has access to these. The large guilds want to control their spots and they can with their bids but they don't enjoy having to wait for maintenance to see if they won their bid and scramble around" https://www.twitch.tv/bethesda/v/87162133 right after 2 hours 45 minutes

Wow, the OUTRAGE of the majority of your community is again pigeonholed as being large guilds only. ZOS has made it very clear they no longer listen to the GMs of large guilds because they think all of our ideas will only help to keep down the little guy. What they don't acknowledge is that large guilds do much better in the current system than the small guilds. I have personally taken responsibility for getting stalls for 2 small PVE/PVP guilds from having none to trying to have steady stalls. One was a complete failure the other barely hanging in. If my experience doesn't help me get small guild a steady trader, then how can you expect players without that experience to succeed? I do NOT represent just large guild's interests.

ZOS has effectively shut out the voices of small guilds. Your forums are broken. In the last 3 months I have given advice to about a dozen small guilds or PVE/PVP guilds trying to get stalls. Most of them have utterly failed. They can't tell their stories here either because they can't get in the forums. I spent an hour last week trying to help someone get into the forums to comment and they couldn't because they had no valid invite code. I tried to help them find where to submit a ticket and couldn't even find it. I finally advised them to put in a ticket in game at which point they gave up because none of the options for ticket purpose made sense. This has happened again and again. Fix the forums access if you want to hear other player's talking!

Small guilds are hit by far the worst by the maintenance. Large guilds have enough officers for SOMEONE to wait it out. It's horrible, it impacts lives, it is CRUEL to do this as an experiment in economy. But large guilds can manage it, and have the manpower to voice their frustration. Small guilds with only 1-2 people involved in the bidding process cannot. They work. They have to take their kids to school. They sleep at that time. If you give people a time, say 8am, most people can manage to arrange their schedules to be there. If you make it so they must be online sometime, at random, during an 13 hour period... 90% of players can't do it! You SAY you are trying to make the system accessible to players but you are effectively making it inaccessible to 90% of your player base! Worse than that, small guilds are the ones who lose bids most often. They don't know how much to bid and the small towns have very unpredictable bidding. I've heard many times guilds lose for 50-80K in roadside stalls They are trying to start new trade guilds or trade divisions in existing guilds and they lose their bids 3 out of 4 times, and cannot be on to hire. Most of them soon give up in frustration. The difficulty of getting established in the trading system has been escalating.

The increase in new guilds getting stalls is NOT a sign of the health of the guild trade system. It's the opposite. Since so many new trade guilds fold, new ones spring up to replace them with no sustainability. Well established guilds of several years fold and the members seek new guilds but instead find that the big guilds with some semblance of stability have waitlists and high sales minimums (they're forced to have any shot at stability) The guilds they can get into don't have stalls half the time which causes these members to move on. Many of the open kiosks are picked up by guilds with no items for sale for no reason other than "It was there" and these are not new trade guilds, they are opportunists. Is that what ZOS wants?

If ZOS thinks this maintenance hazing helps small guilds, please check how many of the 6 new guilds that pop up each week actually get a trader more than 2 times a month? How many of them have more than 1 page of items listed? I can provide names of a few of the dozens of people who can't post here but who have come to me over and over again with the same story. "Where should I bid and how much?" I can't answer, bids are too volatile. "How do I get a backup stall" I explain and am met with shock. Most of them can't do it. One recently changed his work schedule so he could be on all Monday morning and then the next week the 13 hour maintenance meant he still couldn't hire, I believe he too gave up.

silvereyes wrote: »

ElfFromSpace wrote: »

Well I watched the stream and the portion relating to the guild bids and maintenance. ZOS says, to paraphrase "It's something that Phil and I are in very hot debates right now. We want to make sure that everybody has access to these. The large guilds want to control their spots and they can with their bids but they don't enjoy having to wait and scramble around" https://www.twitch.tv/bethesda/v/87162133 right after 2 hours 45 minutes

Yeah, I think the "large guilds" comment was unfortunate, but I wouldn't read too much into it. The question was specifically about bid flip times conflicting with maintenance. There are plenty of other complaints about the kiosk system right now, but they weren't the question being asked.

What I found more interesting from that clip was the interpersonal dynamics. I think @ZOS_GinaBruno is my new hero, because you could tell she was nervous to be opening what was obviously a bit of a can of worms on live stream, but she did it anyways. Was a pretty brave thing, in my opinion.

It also explains the silence on the forums. The fact that Phil and Rich are having a heated debate about the topic internally means that the CMs have no consistent message to inform people about. It's great news because rather than silence == "this is low priority", it means "we are thinking hard about this".

Indeed, @ZOS_GinaBruno could just do the easy questions types and get away with it, but she stood by the community and not only asked a hot question but pressed for more information after a short answer. Thank you very much, Gina!

I lead a roleplay guild. We once thought of having our own trader. But the bid required for decent traders like Wayrest, Mournhold and Rawl'sha are ridiculous. We the small start up on trading guild WILL NOT get any trader from the big guys. There is nothing wrong with that, as the big guys did put time in their trading guilds, raffles, auctions and all those things mine didn't, of course they will have more money. Much like the Champion System, it benefits people who play the longest at the expense of the new player and new guilds.

That is hardly large trading guilds' fault. Plus, as I mentioned about the value of bid required to get a decent trader, it is not the maintenance x kiosk bidding time that will make it easy for new guilds, it is only an annoyance for every single guild. You do care about quality of life updates, why not perform this simple fix? You really think having this horrible schedule will help any guilds? It isn't helping anyone.

Honestly a Guild Calendar would be great.

ElfFromSpace wrote: »

If ZOS thinks this maintenance hazing helps small guilds, please check how many of the 6 new guilds that pop up each week actually get a trader more than 2 times a month? How many of them have more than 1 page of items listed?

Small guilds don't have the inventory to make their sales worthwhile, or the same access to Master Merchant to balance out prices in equilibrium to guilds which may be literally a few feet away from them. I don't buy from small guilds because small guilds DON'T have anything to sell. Even the larger guilds can often times have trouble keeping up with the variety that people want to encourage great sales growth.

ZOS, by creating the guild vendors, essentially made it vital and necessary for large guilds to get those spots. I have nothing against small trade guilds, but the fact of the matter is that the in game economy can't be run by them. And the current system is so unforgiving and punishing to large guild vendors that, of the GMs I know, most have anxiety and extreme frustration for having to balance their lives around this unforgiving bidding schedule.

The system needs to change. The guild traders created the system we have today, and it's created an environment which is both effective and woefully inadequate at the same time.

Something needs to change.