Duelling and Poisons

Kas · September 2016

Can someone explain to me why duellers love to ban poisons?
I used to duel quite a bit, but not so much lately (see below).
There are always annoying things. I didn't use poisons during my duels but I've been flames for using:
Fasallas, rearming trap, a mag templar, a more than one shield on a sorc, mines, atro, pet(s), skoria, (kinda rightfully malubeth), honor the dead, ritual purge, reverb, and many more I don't recall. Likewise there are TONS of things that I hate to play against: major vit potions, viper set, velidreth, engine guarding los'ing, cloak spam, etc.
I guess we all have to deal with annoying stuff and probably flames and butthurt people will never go away.

But why do so many players agree on banning poisons in particular? Here's a brief list of what benefits they would have:

1) MOST importantly, they are part of the game. It's one of the reasons I don't duel anymore. I adjusted my build so that I can 1vX in the wild, even vs poisons. I would need swap jewellery for duels if I still wanted to min/max. It's not only the offensive side but also defending against poisons. If you remove them from duels, you detach duels from open-world pvp

2) Duels between good players are almost always rather too long than too short. A big reason is high sustain which would be MUCH harder against resource poisons or lack of kill potential which could be helped by damage poisons
3) Magicka builds are out-of-style. Imho magicka MSA weapons (and master weapons) are weaker than their stamina counterparts. Especially w.r.t to their glyph. To me it feels like most duellers run regular glyphs, some run msa 2handers, few master 1handers and very few master destro staves. Especially magsorcs often run plain msa staves without even using wall (not that I#d recommend that, but with poisons it would be absolutely viable)! Running msa weapons with poisons could be a good way for magicka users to get extra benefits whereas your typical cookie cutter backrose+veli+viper (and similar ones) build would have much less benefit (if at all) because it's only a choice between glyphs and poisons.
4) With "optimal" builds becoming apparent, more and more people play the same thing. Many fights are highly predictable and the result is the same 5-10min fight that is eventually decided by nuances (and fairly often even lucky, e.g. chan of crits, lucky doges on potentially deciding thing, etc). There are so many different poisons that are absolutely viable (not only the 60% cost increase stuff). It adds depth to a duel and makes the fight less predictable.

Sure, there are downsides: poisons in general are annoying because they add extra costs and the more popular they are, the harder it is to win when outnumbered. However, if I still see rank 30++ "guild-read"-people trying to get out of encase by repeatedly bashing thin air, I don't think we have to worry about them slotting useful poisons, let alone every using a successful light attack to proc them. Finally, I don't want to fight veli+viper+widdowmaker either, but allowing one inta damage set at most, seems a lot more sensible to me..

altemriel · September 2016

I guess that are duelist, that do not how to play or are affraid that they will be killed easily!!

I understand if someone would be agains using the sets, which are broken or OP (Malubeth as I read on the forums here), but against poisons...I don`t understand their concerns

I mean I am a total newbie to PVP, but I would not care about people using their full gear including poisons in duel with me.

what point does it have to duel with restrictions and then go to Cyrodill and there have to fight people without those restrictions? not a training at all then.

KenaPKK · September 2016

It's just the two that increase stam or magicka costs by 60% with 100% uptime. We need less sustain in duels, but those kill everyone's main resource bar in no time. They're just overtuned.

altemriel · September 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

It's just the two that increase stam or magicka costs by 60% with 100% uptime. We need less sustain in duels, but those kill everyone's main resource bar in no time. They're just overtuned.

which two?

RadioheadSh0t · September 2016

Tested out dueling for the first time last night, and poisons are basically required for dueling. It's kind of absurd, especially for magicka users.

The resource drain is just too much.

KenaPKK · September 2016

altemriel wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

It's just the two that increase stam or magicka costs by 60% with 100% uptime. We need less sustain in duels, but those kill everyone's main resource bar in no time. They're just overtuned.

which two?

Ravage Magicka:
increase magicka costs by 60% for 10.5s
10s cooldown

Ravage Stamina:
increase stamina costs by 60% for 10.5s
10s cooldown

There's a combination of the two that's pretty overtuned as well. Ravage Magicka + Stamina:
increase magicka and stamina costs by 60% for 6.4s
10s cooldown

It's literally just those 3 poisons that we in the dueling community have a problem with. We do believe people have too much sustain in duels, but these poisons are simply too much. They kill your resources utterly. In CP campaigns, I'd be glad to see 40% cost increases. In CP campaigns, maybe 10-15%.

PrinceFabious · September 2016

I agree with OP!

donJay · September 2016

If poisons are banned, wings should be banned too. No reason why stam dk's should be able to block all reflect damage constantly. Literally counted 70+ wings from a stam dk in a duel.

KisoValley · September 2016

Love the broccoli posts on this thread

Psilent · September 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

It's just the two that increase stam or magicka costs by 60% with 100% uptime. We need less sustain in duels, but those kill everyone's main resource bar in no time. They're just overtuned.

They can be purged though and everyone has access to purge in the Alliance War section of skills.

Sharee · September 2016

If its not an exploit, use it. If they complain, ignore them.

Brutusmax1mus · September 2016

Lol but that 1 purge will cost 10k magicka.. then it procs on you shooting after.

Those increase costs poisons should be gradual.
Starting at 10% and increasing by 5% per second for its duration with a max at 40%.

This allows a reaction period but doesn't negate the potency. Even 20% and increasing to 40% would be OK.

I think the main issue is the effect on break free and roll dodge. It shouldn't effect those. 1 proc on a magicka character and goodbye.

Kas · September 2016

tbh i can deal with poisons fairly well. 100% uptime is kind of a myth. You have a 10second cooldown and then a chance on successful hits. this shouldn't be 100%, ever. sure there are two weapon bars but still...

further, purging a stamina poison is not a problem (especially not as templar but neither with efficient purge) and neither is dogding attacks vs a magicka poison to get way below 100% uptime.
built for 1vX and open-world, I have significantly more reg / cost reduction than i'd have in a min/max'ed duel build. I really think allowing poisons would

personally, i sometimes feel that stam nb's and dk's have the biggest problem with them. yet, here we are complain about how strong they are in duels but then we adjust rules so that they can still run stuff liek viper + veli in full wd glyphs and find enough space on their bars for trap etc.

sure, there are balance problem in eso. but tbh, open-world feels better balanced than player-made duelling rules, currently.

altemriel · September 2016

simply because they want to minimise their chance of getting killed, which is pretty lame, as in Cyrodiil they will not be able to do that...

I had to make a post about it here (I just had to write that):
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3337958/#Comment_3337958

altemriel · September 2016

Kas wrote: »

tbh i can deal with poisons fairly well. 100% uptime is kind of a myth. You have a 10second cooldown and then a chance on successful hits. this shouldn't be 100%, ever. sure there are two weapon bars but still...

further, purging a stamina poison is not a problem (especially not as templar but neither with efficient purge) and neither is dogding attacks vs a magicka poison to get way below 100% uptime.
built for 1vX and open-world, I have significantly more reg / cost reduction than i'd have in a min/max'ed duel build. I really think allowing poisons would

personally, i sometimes feel that stam nb's and dk's have the biggest problem with them. yet, here we are complain about how strong they are in duels but then we adjust rules so that they can still run stuff liek viper + veli in full wd glyphs and find enough space on their bars for trap etc.

sure, there are balance problem in eso. but tbh, open-world feels better balanced than player-made duelling rules, currently.

exactly!

Psilent · September 2016

The community complains about infinite sustain and OP healing, but you have poisons that give you access to minor defile and increased cost, however, the community doesn't want to use them.

Using a poison means you lose your weapon enchant. Seems like a fair trade off; you either go for debuffs or raw damage potential, if your using the weapon/spell damage glyphs.

Asgari · September 2016

some poisons like some of the sets are in fact broken .. there is one poison i wont say which that is completely broken and does like 6k+ instant dmg and then a dot.

Sandman929 · September 2016

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

some poisons like some of the sets are in fact broken .. there is one poison i wont say which that is completely broken and does like 6k+ instant dmg and then a dot.

No naming and shaming of poisons?

Psilent · September 2016

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

some poisons like some of the sets are in fact broken .. there is one poison i wont say which that is completely broken and does like 6k+ instant dmg and then a dot.

I know what poison your talking about, however, I don't use it. Been ganked for 35k+ by someone using it though.

Sandman929 · September 2016

If there's something broken in the game, someone interested in the overall quality of the game should point it out.

KisoValley · September 2016

Not hard to work out why poisons are banned when 1 is dealing like 10x the tooltip for some reason and the other main 1 used makes you run out of stam/magicka in 5 abilities if you're lucky.

Psilent · September 2016

Sandman929 wrote: »

If there's something broken in the game, someone interested in the overall quality of the game should point it out.

Done! My attorney as been contacted and he'll take it up with ZOS.

KenaPKK · September 2016

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

some poisons like some of the sets are in fact broken .. there is one poison i wont say which that is completely broken and does like 6k+ instant dmg and then a dot.

Doesn't this bug only happen when that poison is used from stealth? That's how it worked when I tested it, and I assumed why all the gankers picked it up. I likely don't know all of its ins and outs though.

But yea, TLDR of this thread: poisons are a hot broken mess. I hope the people defending them are simply uninformed..

Psilent · September 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

some poisons like some of the sets are in fact broken .. there is one poison i wont say which that is completely broken and does like 6k+ instant dmg and then a dot.

Doesn't this bug only happen when that poison is used from stealth? That's how it worked when I tested it, and I assumed why all the gankers picked it up. I likely don't know all of its ins and outs though.

But yea, TLDR of this thread: poisons are a hot broken mess. I hope the people defending them are simply uninformed..

Nah, only broken cause you've died to them most likely.

KenaPKK · September 2016

Psilent wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

some poisons like some of the sets are in fact broken .. there is one poison i wont say which that is completely broken and does like 6k+ instant dmg and then a dot.

Doesn't this bug only happen when that poison is used from stealth? That's how it worked when I tested it, and I assumed why all the gankers picked it up. I likely don't know all of its ins and outs though.

But yea, TLDR of this thread: poisons are a hot broken mess. I hope the people defending them are simply uninformed..

Nah, only broken cause you've died to them most likely.

Pug response if I've ever seen one. Some of us take balance and having things "work as intended" seriously.

Psilent · September 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

Psilent wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

some poisons like some of the sets are in fact broken .. there is one poison i wont say which that is completely broken and does like 6k+ instant dmg and then a dot.

Doesn't this bug only happen when that poison is used from stealth? That's how it worked when I tested it, and I assumed why all the gankers picked it up. I likely don't know all of its ins and outs though.

But yea, TLDR of this thread: poisons are a hot broken mess. I hope the people defending them are simply uninformed..

Nah, only broken cause you've died to them most likely.

Pug response if I've ever seen one. Some of us take balance and having things "work as intended" seriously.

I've never had an issue purging off a poison or recovering from the resource drain. It appears has a debuff, you can purge it, you can run out of LoS and let it drop off. Most of them don't last very long at all.

It seems to me you don't want to change your playstyle to counter it, so you'd rather have it removed.

Skilled players adapt to changes while pugs ask for nerfs instead of developing counters.

Cinbri · September 2016

I get you simpler recap: because duelers don't like instant resource management but also don't like if they can't come on forum to QQ about instant resource managment. Paradoxically, isn't it? Sadly showing why ZOS doesnt listen people.

Sandman929 · September 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

some poisons like some of the sets are in fact broken .. there is one poison i wont say which that is completely broken and does like 6k+ instant dmg and then a dot.

Doesn't this bug only happen when that poison is used from stealth? That's how it worked when I tested it, and I assumed why all the gankers picked it up. I likely don't know all of its ins and outs though.

But yea, TLDR of this thread: poisons are a hot broken mess. I hope the people defending them are simply uninformed..

Worse than uninformed, they seem informed and happy to exploit.

KenaPKK · September 2016

Psilent wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

Psilent wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

some poisons like some of the sets are in fact broken .. there is one poison i wont say which that is completely broken and does like 6k+ instant dmg and then a dot.

Doesn't this bug only happen when that poison is used from stealth? That's how it worked when I tested it, and I assumed why all the gankers picked it up. I likely don't know all of its ins and outs though.

But yea, TLDR of this thread: poisons are a hot broken mess. I hope the people defending them are simply uninformed..

Nah, only broken cause you've died to them most likely.

Pug response if I've ever seen one. Some of us take balance and having things "work as intended" seriously.

I've never had an issue purging off a poison or recovering from the resource drain. It appears has a debuff, you can purge it, you can run out of LoS and let it drop off. Most of them don't last very long at all.

It seems to me you don't want to change your playstyle to counter it, so you'd rather have it removed.

Skilled players adapt to changes while pugs ask for nerfs instead of developing counters.

It's a much more complex situation which I am navigating than your assumptions would suggest.

Personally, I actually don't have a problem versus cost increasing poisons at all, and I run very low sustain builds. I didn't come up with the rule against them, and other leadership in the dueling community will tell you that I resisted one in the beginning. I HATE the amount of sustain and healing that people have and was happy to get any nerf to them, even if it is overtuned. But this is not about me.

Much of the dueling community hates poisons, including other respected leadership, who are intelligent and rational people for the most part. As a leader in the community, it would be unprofessional of me to go around using a mechanic in duels that so many people in the community hate.

Also 1) 60% cost increase with 100% uptime is massive.
2) Another poison is legitimately bugged and one shotting people.
3) Templars are the only class with a usable purge. Running the support purge in place of another entire ability is a huge tradeoff. It's already costly before being affected by the poison, and you often have to use it a couple times before it cleanses the poison debuff since it only cleanses 2 negative effects.
4) You don't run away or LoS in duels. I shouldn't even have to say this..

Psilent · September 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

Psilent wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

Psilent wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

some poisons like some of the sets are in fact broken .. there is one poison i wont say which that is completely broken and does like 6k+ instant dmg and then a dot.

Doesn't this bug only happen when that poison is used from stealth? That's how it worked when I tested it, and I assumed why all the gankers picked it up. I likely don't know all of its ins and outs though.

But yea, TLDR of this thread: poisons are a hot broken mess. I hope the people defending them are simply uninformed..

Nah, only broken cause you've died to them most likely.

Pug response if I've ever seen one. Some of us take balance and having things "work as intended" seriously.

I've never had an issue purging off a poison or recovering from the resource drain. It appears has a debuff, you can purge it, you can run out of LoS and let it drop off. Most of them don't last very long at all.

It seems to me you don't want to change your playstyle to counter it, so you'd rather have it removed.

Skilled players adapt to changes while pugs ask for nerfs instead of developing counters.

It's a much more complex situation which I am navigating than your assumptions would suggest.

Personally, I actually don't have a problem versus cost increasing poisons at all, and I run very low sustain builds. I didn't come up with the rule against them, and other leadership in the dueling community will tell you that I resisted one in the beginning. I HATE the amount of sustain and healing that people have and was happy to get any nerf to them, even if it is overtuned. But this is not about me.

Much of the dueling community hates poisons, including other respected leadership, who are intelligent and rational people for the most part. As a leader in the community, it would be unprofessional of me to go around using a mechanic in duels that so many people in the community hate.

Also 1) 60% cost increase with 100% uptime is massive.
2) Another poison is legitimately bugged and one shotting people.
3) Templars are the only class with a usable purge. Running the support purge in place of another entire ability is a huge tradeoff. It's already costly before being affected by the poison, and you often have to use it a couple times before it cleanses the poison debuff since it once cleanses 2 negative effects.
4) You don't run away or LoS in duels. I shouldn't even have to say this..

ooops!! Completely forgot this was more along the rules of dueling.

*red face* *Apologizes and steps back from thread slowly...*

Sublime · September 2016

Because they're expensive af. (same goes for potions) I want to play PvP and not farm flowers in Coldharbor. And no the AP you get for playing PvP does not make up for the cost of supplies. Yes I could equip Mutagen + Healing Springs, run after a zerg and make 80k AP/H, but I want to play a game and not code a bot.