Duelling and Poisons

Lord_Hev

KenaPKK wrote: »

altemriel wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

It's just the two that increase stam or magicka costs by 60% with 100% uptime. We need less sustain in duels, but those kill everyone's main resource bar in no time. They're just overtuned.

which two?

Ravage Stamina:
increase stamina costs by 60% for 10.5s
10s cooldown

Ohhh thank you for this. Going to make myself thousands of these stocked up for next patch so I can be ready for all the Stam rerolls incoming next patch. This is -the- poison I was looking for all along.

KenaPKK

Lord_Hev wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

altemriel wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

It's just the two that increase stam or magicka costs by 60% with 100% uptime. We need less sustain in duels, but those kill everyone's main resource bar in no time. They're just overtuned.

which two?

Ravage Stamina:
increase stamina costs by 60% for 10.5s
10s cooldown

Ohhh thank you for this. Going to make myself thousands of these stocked up for next patch so I can be ready for all the Stam rerolls incoming next patch. This is -the- poison I was looking for all along.

lol yea bud they're pretty hilarious. I'll send you a handful to test out. :lol

Also, loled at "stam rerolls," as if there are any magicka players left willing to consider rerolling who haven't done it already.

FriedEggSandwich

I'm not an experienced duellist enough to have a strong opinion on this but my gut instinct is that they are cheesy and mask any lack of skill/experience. I slot poisons in pvp because I use a vMA fire staff as a 1 piece spell damage buff, so I don't use WoE, so there is literally no drawback to this and I justify it by believeing it narrows the mag/stam divide in open world.

I was challenged to a random duel in open world a few weeks ago by a mDK from mythical playground. We fought and I won with my poison. He then asked for another so I confessed to using a poison and told him I would remove it for the next fight. Fair play to him, he told me to use what I wanted. I removed it anyway and the fight lasted about 3x longer and he eventually won. It feels like poisons are a "free" way to screw your opponent over. This is easily justified in open world where cheesy strats are rife, but in duels I feel like they should have no place unless both parties agree to using them.

Seido_Tensei_

KenaPKK wrote: »

It's a much more complex situation which I am navigating than your assumptions would suggest.

Personally, I actually don't have a problem versus cost increasing poisons at all, and I run very low sustain builds. I didn't come up with the rule against them, and other leadership in the dueling community will tell you that I resisted one in the beginning. I HATE the amount of sustain and healing that people have and was happy to get any nerf to them, even if it is overtuned. But this is not about me.

Much of the dueling community hates poisons, including other respected leadership, who are intelligent and rational people for the most part. As a leader in the community, it would be unprofessional of me to go around using a mechanic in duels that so many people in the community hate.

Also 1) 60% cost increase with 100% uptime is massive.
2) Another poison is legitimately bugged and one shotting people.
3) Templars are the only class with a usable purge. Running the support purge in place of another entire ability is a huge tradeoff. It's already costly before being affected by the poison, and you often have to use it a couple times before it cleanses the poison debuff since it only cleanses 2 negative effects.
4) You don't run away or LoS in duels. I shouldn't even have to say this..

Sorry I am a bit late to the thread. Just got back after a long haitus and this was the most recent thread I found with a discussion about the use of poisons during duels.

It sounds like the biggest issue is number 3, which I think speaks volumes about the "dueling" community. If someone doesn't want to run efficient purge and invest in magicka sustain, that is entirely their issue. Either that or play a Templar. I am very confused why my Stamina Templar with Maelstrom weapons (they ain't even hard to get anymore) has to be gimped because people cant be bothered to run purge.

If someone is NOT using a bugged poison there should be no complaints. Just because someone feels they are "over powered" is not a valid reason for them to be frowned upon. Give up your precious +weapon/spell dmg enchants and/or run purge. I get that possible 100% up-time on resource poisons makes them very strong, but the up-time is not 100%. You have a 20% chance to proc poisons, even animation canceling 3 attacks does not guarantee a proc. Yes the chances of a proc are higher due to AC, but not anywhere near 100%, so you are being over dramatic saying it has a 100% up-time.....because it doesn't.

Not to mention a lot of things were overpowered for a long time and they were never banned in duels. Cloaking for example historically was extremely strong 1v1 and remains very effective (when it works) and only one class can use if effectively, but has never been banned in duels. There have been countless examples of strong combos / exploits that were extremely common during dueling (PS4 NA):

- Maces back when they had a 100% physical pen
- 100% axe bleed exploit
- Camo hunter double proc
- Uppercut granting empower (yes it was easy enough to block or walk through, but often with lag, the animation / timing would be all wrong)
- The viper + velidreth combo pretty much requires no skill to proc yet it has never been banned in duels.
- You cant LOS during duels but Greater Storm Atronach is considered cool even if dueling in a confined space
- People spamming trap beast and sniping until you engage (hey that's unfair to melee only builds!)

I personally feel that poisons even the playing field and offer a ton more depth to dueling...All of a sudden Magicka sustain/management becomes very important on stam characters that have to decide weather to run purge or something else as a magicka dump ( e.g. fear), just like Magicka characters have to manage stamina for break-free. Not to mention what they can do for build diversity (all of sudden having a charged weapon may make more sense then sharpened depending on the build). Why is this bad? No poisons just allow the same cookie cutter builds to dominate 1v1s.

If something is confirmed as bugged then it has no place in dueling or cyrodil in general, but using the argument "its unbalanced" is laughable after the Stamina / Magicka imbalances of the last few patches.

@KenaPKK I understand you are being a leader and not using a mechanic that your community dislikes, but I also feel that as a leader you should not let rules be established that are only founded in the logic of "I don't want to change my build". If there is additional logic to not use poisons please enlighten, because the arguments set fourth so far could of been used to justify the ban of a ton of mechanics that have been allowed to persist in duels.

Asgari

Dead are aware of the bugged poison I was talking about. Why would I openly share its name or what it does

FriedEggSandwich

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

Dead are aware of the bugged poison I was talking about. Why would I openly share its name or what it does

Can you confirm or deny that it's the protection reversal poison? I have no idea if it is but I've been trying it out in pvp cos it seemed less scrubby than draining poison, but it seems stronger than the tooltip would suggest.

Edit: I don't want to be using a bugged poison.

Drummerx04

Kas wrote: »

[...]

Sure, there are downsides: poisons in general are annoying because they add extra costs and the more popular they are, the harder it is to win when outnumbered. However, if I still see rank 30++ "guild-read"-people trying to get out of encase by repeatedly bashing thin air, I don't think we have to worry about them slotting useful poisons, let alone every using a successful light attack to proc them. [...]

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here, but it sounds like you are taking a stab a people who get rooted and try to bash to break free... This happens because a huge majority of the time, when your character suddenly stops moving it's because the game lags always and they got hard CC'd but the game hasn't bothered to show them yet, so they start spamming bash to break free. 3 seconds later the animation for encase shows up and they dodge roll or purge out.

Alucardo

Until there's an easier way to detect whether you've been poisoned I agree with it. Currently the only way I can tell is when I cast a skill and most of my resource pool is gone, and by that time it's too late. There needs to be an extremely visible indication of when you've been hit by poison and what it's affecting. Like off coloured bars or little skulls above the resource bar that has the 60% cost increase.
Glyphs provide small animations and colours so you know what you've been hit by. For example, disease sends out a small brown fart cloud so you know your healing took a small hit.

Cinbri

When One Tamriel will land on Nirn, everyone will use everything in PvE duels. Or you seriously believe people will follow rules "not slot this, don't wear this"?

Sharee

Alucardo wrote: »

Until there's an easier way to detect whether you've been poisoned I agree with it. Currently the only way I can tell is when I cast a skill and most of my resource pool is gone, and by that time it's too late. There needs to be an extremely visible indication of when you've been hit by poison and what it's affecting. Like off coloured bars or little skulls above the resource bar that has the 60% cost increase.
Glyphs provide small animations and colours so you know what you've been hit by. For example, disease sends out a small brown fart cloud so you know your healing took a small hit.

There is actually a graphical effect on you when a poison procs. It looks like a small green/black cloud. I'll try to find a video of it when i get home.

BRogueNZ

KenaPKK wrote: »

It's just the two that increase stam or magicka costs by 60% with 100% uptime. We need less sustain in duels, but those kill everyone's main resource bar in no time. They're just overtuned.

I confess I've run with 60% magicka and stamina drain and +8% damage in everyday pvp, but I felt the bad as thats a pretty crazy burden to impose on anyone so refrain unless special circumstances warrant it.
I get poisoned by every stamina user in the game from range and melee, so its was a bit of payback plugging them full of it with resto attacks. half of me whispers no mercy, the other thinks I've stooped low