One Tamriel and the Alliance War

UltimaJoe777 · September 2016

Mojmir wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Mojmir wrote: »

Why does there have to be an explanation? Your in a fantasy world, make one up.

Why do so many people (including ZOS) think this is a valid solution? Anything made up by a player is non-canonical. The only way the official, canonical story can be recorded (either by in-game historians for the purposes of future lore, or by real-world information sites for purposes of game documentation) is if that official story exists. The official, canonical story cannot be written right now, as it contradicts itself and makes no sense.

cause it's a video game, BTW the company who makes the game can dictate whatever lore they want. Some people take gaming waaaaay to serious.

It's called "the fandom". Fans of a series like to get immersed into the world that has been created. If there is a plothole it does nothing but disappoint.

Oakmontowls_ESO · September 2016

Eh must be that meridia is disguising you when you enter the other alliance's turf to protect you so you can help her in the main story. That or the Vest age just has one of those faces that makes it difficult to remember who they are.

brandon · September 2016

I really enjoy this game, but I find it really disappointing that ZOS is content to just ignore some of these blatant plot holes. They ask for feedback, but they never really go back and change any of the lore breaking stuff. They haven't even bothered to comment about this issue either.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

I know that me and a lot of other people would greatly appreciate some sort of comment on this issue.

gurluasb16_ESO · September 2016

Heres an idea: When you leave the prison, instead of going to Tamriel you're teleported to the Colored Rooms. Meridia talks to you and informs you that you possibly have a role to play in the future, and you may need a wider perspective of Tamriel to understand that role. She blasts you with Meridia's light, and informs you, that there are three warring factions, and she has blessed you so that you can walk amongst each without being recognized by the other.

Then she teleports you to Tamriel proper.

I also give ZOS and Zenimax full legal right to use this idea if they want to.
I do not own Elder Scrolls, or any of the characters and locations. This is merely an idea to solve a game issue.

opaj · September 2016

It's a shame, because the writing in this game is quite excellent overall. It's always been possible to sequence break by, say, skipping ahead two zones and having NPCs reference things you hadn't done yet, but most people would have had to go out of their way to experience that. With One Tamriel, new players are likely to wander off, sequence break badly, and wind up thinking that the story makes no sense. (At least, the ones who care about story will.)

So, how could Zenimax address that part of it, from a practical standpoint? The way I see it, the principle issues are...

1. You can gain so much renown that even your enemy kings and queens know who you are, and then pop on over to enemy territory and no one so much as blinks an eye. These quests then often pit you against your "allied" forces, which made sense in the context of Cadwell's Silver and Gold, but not in the context of "I'm just gonna pop on over here for now."

2. As mentioned above, it's easy to skip ahead to different parts of the story. This was mitigated before by relatively strict level requirements for each zone, but now it will be quite easy to wander into spoiler territory.

3. You can have any level of renown in any given faction and begin Messages Across Tamriel. Heck, it's possible that you're an unknown to your home alliance's leader and a beloved friend to the two enemy alliances.

The real challenge here is that we have to assume there's little to no budget available for VO on this issue. Based on the PTS notes, we can assume that there is some VO left to be recorded, but they'd likely only have room in the schedule to sneak in a small handful of lines. We also have to assume that they won't implement any changes that impact gameplay in a non-trivial way, no matter how much a minority of us consider story to be one of the most important elements.

1. New ambient dialogue that triggers if you've done a "traitorous" quest and has an NPC call you out on it. It's really not much, but I think it would go a long way to reconcile the cognitive dissonance in doing things like, say, working as an Eye of the Queen and then slaughtering her forces in Shadowfen. This has the advantage of leaving the ball in the player's court as to whether or not they'll display PvE alliance loyalty.
Ideally, this should be a simple line with lots of room for player interpretation (like, "I thought you were on our side!") and should only play if the player has displayed loyalty to both factions. For instance, if I've rolled a Daggerfall Covenant character but I've done absolutely no quests in service of the Covenant, then Covenant NPCs shouldn't be chiding me for a lack of loyalty I never displayed in the first place.

2. This is a tough one. It's a problem that already exists in-game, and really needs to be tackled on a case-by-case basis. Certainly no feasible fix before One Tamriel.

3. A tad ridiculous, but I think the best option is to splice alternative dialogue from previous VO for each of the alliance leaders. If you're the champion of Jorunn but you show up on behalf of the Dominion, he should greet you as a friend. Without new VO, it would likely be impossible to have them comment on the fact that you're carrying the enemy's banner, but I somehow doubt it would be prudent business to bring in those big-name actors for what is likely a low-priority issue. -_-

And... I don't know why I typed all that out. But here it is, and I'm tired, so goodnight.

Enodoc · September 2016

americansteel wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

As I alluded to in the PTS thread, I don't see much of an issue with the lore of these things individually. It makes sense that "a citizen" is not bound by Alliance borders. The issue comes when you apply the new changes to the lore that already exists, which is what they have done. You then have conflicting logic between how those story quests are introduced, and how you have been playing the game.

ESO has broken lore many times progressing through the quests.

The internal quest lore is actually very robust. This is the first time that there is actually a direct contradiction between lore and gameplay.

no one in auridon would know that my nord templar was slaughtering elves in the 3 banners war unless i told them,

there are bretons and altmer in the EP zones

orcs and dunmer in AD

nords in DC

no one is bound by borders unless you have a uniform on.

one tamriel should should have been here since launch, choose a faction for the pvp aspect.

And by itself that would all be fine. But the way it has been introduced means it conflicts with Messages Across Tamriel and Cadwell's. For it to make sense, either Messages/Cadwell's needs to be altered to allow for the fact you can travel to the other alliances before those are started, or something needs to be implemented stating that travelling between alliances is subject to Meridia's influence.

Mojmir wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Mojmir wrote: »

Why does there have to be an explanation? Your in a fantasy world, make one up.

Why do so many people (including ZOS) think this is a valid solution? Anything made up by a player is non-canonical. The only way the official, canonical story can be recorded (either by in-game historians for the purposes of future lore, or by real-world information sites for purposes of game documentation) is if that official story exists. The official, canonical story cannot be written right now, as it contradicts itself and makes no sense.

cause it's a video game, BTW the company who makes the game can dictate whatever lore they want. Some people take gaming waaaaay to serious.

Yes, they can dictate whatever lore they want. And that is all we want them to do; add some lore that explains the discrepancy. Considering the number of people in this thread who are attempting to explain it, coming up with a reasonable explanation is not difficult. We are therefore trying to show to ZOS that a consistent world and storyline is important, and hopefully that will encourage them to put a bit of time aside to address this.

The issue is really down to mundane vs magical. Prior to One Tamriel, Meridia allowed you to travel to the other zones magically, and hid your identity from the other alliances when doing so. Now, it is possible to travel there via mundane means, because you can take a boat there from the docks. The magical method still exists, but turns up much later down the line, after the mundane method has been introduced (by virtue of existence rather than explanation). To solve this issue, the mundane and magical methods need to be consolidated.

For example, as suggested above and elsewhere, the most logical explanation is that Meridia's influence is hiding your true identity from the other alliances, even when you travel there by boat, which would explain why they don't recognise you when you meet them during Messages Across Tamriel, and would fit in with the existing explanation for Cadwell's. Since Meridia's influence is specifically hiding your alliance affiliation, it does not hide you completely from side quest characters and other NPCs. This is why recurring side quest characters from those alliance zones will still recognise you in Coldharbour, Wrothgar and the Gold Coast, and why incidental NPCs will reference your exploits in other zones.

The problem with this explanation though is that it is just fan theory for how it works. We can't include this theory at UESP, for example, because I just made it up. Someone else may have made up a different, but equally plausible, reason, and it would be unfair to include one and not the other. But neither would actually be included, as we only include official information. In official information, these theories don't hold, as it remains still unexplained. Conversely, if there were some documentation in-game or in ZOS media stating this was how it works, that would be valid and verifiable.

There are a number of ways this theory (or any others) could be included in-game. The best way to explain it would be through NPC dialogue from a major contributing NPC, such as Cadwell or Meridia, when the Cadwell quests start; "Oh, and by the way, Meridia has already been hiding your identity from the other alliances, if you happen to have been to their lands before now. You may have been wondering why they didn't seem to recognise you on Stirk!" But that would require VO time, which ZOS are unlikely to go for. Something simpler would be to add a note, which would therefore be text-only, to an appropriate location.

k9mouse · September 2016

Enodoc wrote: »

americansteel wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

As I alluded to in the PTS thread, I don't see much of an issue with the lore of these things individually. It makes sense that "a citizen" is not bound by Alliance borders. The issue comes when you apply the new changes to the lore that already exists, which is what they have done. You then have conflicting logic between how those story quests are introduced, and how you have been playing the game.

ESO has broken lore many times progressing through the quests.

The internal quest lore is actually very robust. This is the first time that there is actually a direct contradiction between lore and gameplay.

no one in auridon would know that my nord templar was slaughtering elves in the 3 banners war unless i told them,

there are bretons and altmer in the EP zones

orcs and dunmer in AD

nords in DC

no one is bound by borders unless you have a uniform on.

one tamriel should should have been here since launch, choose a faction for the pvp aspect.

And by itself that would all be fine. But the way it has been introduced means it conflicts with Messages Across Tamriel and Cadwell's. For it to make sense, either Messages/Cadwell's needs to be altered to allow for the fact you can travel to the other alliances before those are started, or something needs to be implemented stating that travelling between alliances is subject to Meridia's influence.

Mojmir wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Mojmir wrote: »

Why does there have to be an explanation? Your in a fantasy world, make one up.

Why do so many people (including ZOS) think this is a valid solution? Anything made up by a player is non-canonical. The only way the official, canonical story can be recorded (either by in-game historians for the purposes of future lore, or by real-world information sites for purposes of game documentation) is if that official story exists. The official, canonical story cannot be written right now, as it contradicts itself and makes no sense.

cause it's a video game, BTW the company who makes the game can dictate whatever lore they want. Some people take gaming waaaaay to serious.

Yes, they can dictate whatever lore they want. And that is all we want them to do; add some lore that explains the discrepancy. Considering the number of people in this thread who are attempting to explain it, coming up with a reasonable explanation is not difficult. We are therefore trying to show to ZOS that a consistent world and storyline is important, and hopefully that will encourage them to put a bit of time aside to address this.

The issue is really down to mundane vs magical. Prior to One Tamriel, Meridia allowed you to travel to the other zones magically, and hid your identity from the other alliances when doing so. Now, it is possible to travel there via mundane means, because you can take a boat there from the docks. The magical method still exists, but turns up much later down the line, after the mundane method has been introduced (by virtue of existence rather than explanation). To solve this issue, the mundane and magical methods need to be consolidated.

For example, as suggested above and elsewhere, the most logical explanation is that Meridia's influence is hiding your true identity from the other alliances, even when you travel there by boat, which would explain why they don't recognise you when you meet them during Messages Across Tamriel, and would fit in with the existing explanation for Cadwell's. Since Meridia's influence is specifically hiding your alliance affiliation, it does not hide you completely from side quest characters and other NPCs. This is why recurring side quest characters from those alliance zones will still recognise you in Coldharbour, Wrothgar and the Gold Coast, and why incidental NPCs will reference your exploits in other zones.

The problem with this explanation though is that it is just fan theory for how it works. We can't include this theory at UESP, for example, because I just made it up. Someone else may have made up a different, but equally plausible, reason, and it would be unfair to include one and not the other. But neither would actually be included, as we only include official information. In official information, these theories don't hold, as it remains still unexplained. Conversely, if there were some documentation in-game or in ZOS media stating this was how it works, that would be valid and verifiable.

There are a number of ways this theory (or any others) could be included in-game. The best way to explain it would be through NPC dialogue from a major contributing NPC, such as Cadwell or Meridia, when the Cadwell quests start; "Oh, and by the way, Meridia has already been hiding your identity from the other alliances, if you happen to have been to their lands before now. You may have been wondering why they didn't seem to recognise you on Stirk!" But that would require VO time, which ZOS are unlikely to go for. Something simpler would be to add a note, which would therefore be text-only, to an appropriate location.

I was thinking in game mail from Cladwell that says something on those lines soon after you leave the tutor level in Cold Harbor.

AzuraKin · September 2016

tinythinker wrote: »

For those who don't have access to or who haven't been on the PTS since Update 12: One Tamriel went up, basically, if you start a new character you can play through the starter area like normal but when you get to the first major city (Davon's Watch, Glenumbra, or Vukhel Guard) you can open up the map at the wayshrine and go to either of the other two to start adventuring in another Alliance. That's part of the "go anywhere right away" aspect of One Tamriel. You can get to other zones mounted on or foot. You might even be able to go to the other Alliances from the starter island wayshrine and skip the rest but I forgot to check.

There is no explanation, though, in the game, for why you have such unrestricted movement. I would need to quest all the way though the main story of the five companions (no spoilers given below) on the PTS and talk to the person who used to send you to other Alliances to figure out what has changed in terms of Silver and Gold, but, in any event, apparently it's no big deal to have citizens or even soldiers (if you join the Alliance War) from a different Alliance just wandering undisguised in enemy territory.

Some players won't care about that, some will find it odd, and some will be annoyed. But essentially you are irrelevant to the war, and it is irrelevant to you, unless you travel to Cyrodiil by pressing L (or whatever it is console players press). I mean, NPCs will still talk about the war, and you will still be the champion of each Alliance you quest through, and while questing you will still foil the plans of other Alliances, but, apparently, everyone else will have a constantly shifting case of collective amnesia, unless there is something that comes up plot-wise much further along that retroactively explains how you can just go anywhere in a time of civil war.

In any case, it does raise a question in my mind, namely, "Why are we stuck with the Alliance we chose in character creation?"

Let me state I am not suggesting players should be able to purchase an Alliance War Allegiance Change Token in the Crown Store. But, we had the lead combat designer mention that many class changes over the last several months were due to people picking a class because it looked or sounded cool but then realizing it was really bad at or hard to play for a particular role (i.e. tank, healer, damage dealer). Fair enough. Maybe you even thought you wanted to be a tank but didn't like it and wish you could heal the party on your Dragonknight. So now you can. In the same way, after you get a chance to play as a particular race you may regret your choice at character selection. There is now a remedy for that in the Crown Store.

A choice could also be offered with regard to your (primary) Alliance. Let a player try out, if they wish, some or all of the story in each Alliance. But they are not yet assigned to one permanently in terms of the Alliance War when they first enter Tamriel. Upon reaching level 10, the player gains the option of visiting a recruiter and signing up to fight, enabling the L button (or whatever you use) to work. There is already a Covenant recruiter NPC outside the east gate of Daggerfall, for example, but he just says he needs more soldiers. The player could have a dialogue option added to that conversation to indicate a desire to enlist, including a red "this decision is permanent" kind of text prompt to make sure you don't make the commitment by accident. A similar recruiter could be placed outside of Davon's Watch and Vulkhel Guard for those wishing to represent one of those Alliances. All three recruiters would be present from the start, but the enlistment dialogue option would simply be unavailable prior to level 10.

In this way, you can if you wish get a feel for each Alliance story-wise prior to picking the one you wish to represent. Once chosen, the decision becomes irreversible. If you just want to play through your starting Alliance and enlist with it as soon as you hit level 10, you can. You don't have to explore the others (or even enlist at all). But this would give players the option to do so.

do i need to remind folks YOU HAVE 8 DAMN CHARACTER SLOTS AND CAN BUY ANOTHER 4 FOR A WOPPING TOTAL OF 12. this equals to 1 ea class in each damn alliance if you wanted. dont like your class? dont like your alliance? make a *** new character you whining sons of ***.

tinythinker · September 2016

Again, there are two issues with the plot holes:

1. Lore-breaking. Many TES fans are huge lore freaks. Some hate how ZOS changed/added to the lore when designing ESO, but at least ZOS was more or less internally consistent. For those who couldn't give less of a #$^% about lore...

2. Story-breaking. In other words, just trying to follow what the Oblivion is going on, who is who, and so on. Players who have no interest whatsoever in lore may still enjoy or try to follow the story. The way things are right now on PTS makes no sense. Old stuff was left in, no new stuff was added, and it's out of order. This doesn't require a huge amount of effort to fix in terms of clever writing or what not. It can be very simple.

If you pay zero attention to the lore and zero attention to the story and couldn't care less what is going on as long as you can kill enough stuff to reach end-game trials/arenas or get to PvP, that's fine. This thread is for players who are interested in such things as lore or consistent plots who hope that ZOS will at least make the minimal effort necessary to repair the broken story-lines and out of place dialogue created by One Tamriel.

(Speaking of, many have made suggestions for fixes. My initial thoughts on that topic are in the spoiler section below...)

1. Make sure that people are directed first to the starter island when going to a new Alliance. They should always (and now do) have the option to leave it as soon as they find that first wayshrine, but give people a chance to follow the story of each faction from the very start. If they want to wander off somewhere else, cool, but at least they will *know* that they skipped stuff and where to go back to if they want to pick it up again.

2. When you first arrive in a different Alliance than the one you start the game with, add a glowing ball of light that appears only to you and that is heavily synthesized or continually altered in tone, pitch, etc. to make it seem other-worldly and unrecognizable. Something like this:

Mysterious Voice: You have strayed into lands that may see you as an enemy. My master sees great potential in you, and will cloak you from detection. In the eyes of those you meet here your true identity will be unknown. Your reputation here will be born anew according to your actions.

Player: Wait, I don't understand. Who is your master?

Mysterious Voice: All will be revealed...if you show the qualities my master anticipates. Fare thee well, mortal.

When you enter the other "enemy" Alliance, the original line from the Mysterious Voice changes a bit to this:

Mysterious Voice: Ahhh, mortal, once again you have strayed into lands that may see you as an enemy. My master still cloaks you from detection. As before, your reputation in this place will be born anew according to your actions.

So, you know, there you go. When you finally figure out who is pulling what strings (and why) later on this will make sense, but until then it adds another layer of intrigue. Now ZOS just needs to have a coder put in an NPC with the form of a glowy sphere at location x,y,z triggered by a new player entering zones a,b,c, then add in the text dialogue and set it to auto-play upon arrival, and grab a voice actor for a few minutes of work. Nothing too complicated or overly expensive/time-consuming.

tinythinker · September 2016

AzuraKin wrote: »

do i need to remind folks YOU HAVE 8 DAMN CHARACTER SLOTS AND CAN BUY ANOTHER 4 FOR A WOPPING TOTAL OF 12. this equals to 1 ea class in each damn alliance if you wanted. dont like your class? dont like your alliance? make a *** new character you whining sons of ***.

Translation: Arrrgle garrble <cliched insult> blah blah blah <cliched insult> yadda yadda angry angry grumble

Your post is rude and has no value and no purpose other than insulting people. I hope you will consider practicing being constructive instead. Yes, people can have or use many character slots but keep in mind that what people do with their character slots or how many they choose to use is none of your business or mine. Unless someone appointed you to judge the values, opinions, and decisions of others on behalf of ZOS? If so, they forgot to add the official tag to your account

Seriously, though. If a new player creates a character, picks an Alliance because they are required to prior to even logging in for the first time, and then, after meeting and grouping with people in another Alliance while leveling up in PvE, decides that they want to fight for a different Alliance than the one they clicked when they bought the game, that is also none of your business or mine. You are free to do what you wish with your slots, and so are other people who may like their character's name and appearance (which can sometimes be hard to duplicate) or not want to undo what they have done so far. Again, not our call.

Given the new dynamics of One Tamriel a situation in which people can meet new friends and explore and then change their minds about who to fight for is likely to occur. Not everyone wants to delete or reroll because they made an uninformed decision a minute after the game loaded up for the first time, and given the flexibility introduced over the last several months, letting people enlist after level 10 makes sense with the advent of One Tamriel. The biggest obstacle would be if certain data were fixed and inflexible based on how it is coded. It's not big deal if that makes the open enlistment idea unworkable, but if it can work it would allow players who root for a particular faction to try to impress or recruit new players which is good for everyone. New players get more attention and information, established players can try to get more people on their side to balance things out.

Normally I would ignore such a boorish comment but in this case I replied on the chance that someone sincere might come along asking about re-rolling. Sure, people can, and probably will have to for the foreseeable future, but, it doesn't hurt anything if enlistment is added since players already can try any Alliance/play with people from any Alliance in PVE with One Tamriel. It's a valid suggestion that gives players a chance to use the truly open PvE world to make better choices about PvP (if they even want to fight in the War), plus it sounds fun to enlist. Even if you end up not being able to make a one-time choice of any Alliance for the war, it would still be fun to actually talk to an NPC in your home faction and choose to enlist to get your first Alliance War quest.

.

Enodoc · September 2016

tinythinker wrote: »

When you first arrive in a different Alliance than the one you start the game with, add a glowing ball of light that appears only to you and that is heavily synthesized or continually altered in tone, pitch, etc. to make it seem other-worldly and unrecognizable. Something like this:

Mysterious Voice: You have strayed into lands that may see you as an enemy. My master sees great potential in you, and will cloak you from detection. In the eyes of those you meet here your true identity will be unknown. Your reputation here will be born anew according to your actions.

Player: Wait, I don't understand. Who is your master?

Mysterious Voice: All will be revealed...if you show the qualities my master anticipates. Fare thee well, mortal.

When you enter the other "enemy" Alliance, the original line from the Mysterious Voice changes a bit to this:

Mysterious Voice: Ahhh, mortal, once again you have strayed into lands that may see you as an enemy. My master still cloaks you from detection. As before, your reputation in this place will be born anew according to your actions.

So, you know, there you go. When you finally figure out who is pulling what strings (and why) later on this will make sense, but until then it adds another layer of intrigue. Now ZOS just needs to have a coder put in an NPC with the form of a glowy sphere at location x,y,z triggered by a new player entering zones a,b,c, then add in the text dialogue and set it to auto-play upon arrival, and grab a voice actor for a few minutes of work. Nothing too complicated or overly expensive/time-consuming.

Ooh I like this

That would work very well. There's a number of things associated with Meridia that could appear in front of you:

Ball of light, as you say. She is the Lady of Light, after all. An aspect of Meridia appeared in Skyrim as a ball of light, so this has precedence.
Meridia's Beacon, also from Skyrim. Meridia can speak to you through the Beacon, and the Beacon itself could be the cloak. The item could remain in your Quest Items, and the tooltip would always remind you of its cloaking capabilities. To avoid spoilers, it would first be introduced as "A Strange Gem", or something.
Auroran, Meridia's Daedric servants. Could be introduced as "A Mysterious Figure".

Loralai_907 · September 2016

My main thought on all of this is what it does to faction loyalty, especially in new players. What is going to drive people to choose a faction? Is choosing a faction going to be a meaningful experience at all? How is randomly questing going to flow properly? It seems like it is going to be really bumpy and disconnected.

opaj · September 2016

@Enodoc -- even now, the "Meridia hiding your identity" shtick doesn't quite hold up, since the DLCs include encounters with NPCs that you could only have met in Cadwell's Silver and Gold. If they only recognized you one-on-one, you could say that Meridia is shielding you even now, but then there are instances where you're working with NPCs from different alliances at the same time. I think it stretches suspension of disbelief a little bit at that point.

(That said, I really love those interactions, so it is my hope that ZOS finds some other reason why the player is able to explore so freely.)

Enodoc · September 2016

opaj wrote: »

@Enodoc -- even now, the "Meridia hiding your identity" shtick doesn't quite hold up, since the DLCs include encounters with NPCs that you could only have met in Cadwell's Silver and Gold. If they only recognized you one-on-one, you could say that Meridia is shielding you even now, but then there are instances where you're working with NPCs from different alliances at the same time. I think it stretches suspension of disbelief a little bit at that point.

(That said, I really love those interactions, so it is my hope that ZOS finds some other reason why the player is able to explore so freely.)

@opaj Yeah that's true. I think we fandomed that explanation to be that Meridia only hides your identity from the major players of the Alliance, since the side quest characters won't really care about your affiliation. (This doesn't quite explain Raz in the Gold Coast, but it's close enough, since Raz doesn't mention the Alliance during his GC encounter.)

phairdon · September 2016

My two cents worth. Would make more sense to choose which alliance you're going to support in Cyrodiil, when we enter the campaign.
Press L. You choose alliance & campaign.
Or....each alliance contains recruitment area's, detailing the alliance war, reasons why they want you to join their side (slightly more lore friendly?).

Enodoc · September 2016

Update from the floors of PAX (direct from the stream, and second-hand via @Jeancey, who can correct me if I get any of this wrong):

Cadwell's explanation of "Meridia is hiding your true identity" is still the official explanation, as they haven't changed the story and this is still the explanation given by the story. Apparently @ZOS_RichLambert has seen the concerns that this explanation is not communicated to players who travel there via boat/wayshrine before Cadwell explains it to you, and is "considering it". I'm not sure if he was referencing this thread or something like it, but I also mentioned to Jeancey the idea of a Mysterious Light and apparently Rich called it an "interesting solution".

So there you have it. Cadwell's explanation is still canon, and they are considering an early explanation for those who travel to those areas before the story takes you there.

Saltypretzels · September 2016

The moment they announced One Tamriel, I feared they would be too lazy/too time-crunched to fix the dozens of plot holes that would develop. I am one of those people whom it will drive crazy.

For example, I am a DC character questing in AD territory and forced to defeat a DC raiding party in order to progress the quest. Grrrr. This type of thing will be so annoying.

I am really disappointed they didn't try to get this right.

tinythinker · September 2016

mommadani907 wrote: »

My main thought on all of this is what it does to faction loyalty, especially in new players. What is going to drive people to choose a faction? Is choosing a faction going to be a meaningful experience at all? How is randomly questing going to flow properly? It seems like it is going to be really bumpy and disconnected.

Honestly, some people even in beta and right after PC launch played through different factions and were like, "I can't believe I chose X over Y" and rerolled. Whether or not open enlistment is implemented, people might still reroll anyway because they prefer certain leaders, NPCs, or plots over others. Faction loyalty though needs to be based on differences they offer in Cyrodii.

I linked this thread several comments ago about building faction loyalty, but I also still wonder what they used to have planned for making how the War is seen different among the Alliances and whether that might ever best dusted off...

From that second link, dated July 2014:

Does what you hear in this older ZOS video from 2013 match your own experience in the game in terms of quests and the guiding story lines inside/outside of Cyrodiil?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDHa-77cy3I

It's not necessarily incompatible with what I've seen in the different story lines for each alliance, but it doesn't seem obvious or embedded in them either. And I can't really recall any recognizable storyline really in Cyrodiil itself beyond "it's war -- go capture things and kill enemy troops."

I found this quote particularly interesting:

"What's great about this from a game play standpoint is that it gives each alliance a distinctive feel and ambiance. They each have their own methods and goals, and they player gets to experience this difference inside each alliance. They get to take up these methods and achieve these goals as they're playing through the story of the Alliance War."

I am assuming he just means each series of main quests for each alliance, or maybe this was something that was planned for Cyrodiil and was scrapped along the way (seeing as how it was posted a year and half ago), but wouldn't it be fun to have these kinds of story elements developed within Alliance War game play to give Cyrodiil more flavor?

This could be really cool for helping to distinguish things rather than just having different colors on the banners each side flies.

tinythinker · September 2016

duplicate post

tinythinker · September 2016

phairdon wrote: »

Or....each alliance contains recruitment area's, detailing the alliance war, reasons why they want you to join their side (slightly more lore friendly?).

That's what I am advocating. See the loremaster's explanation of why each side is fighting in the video posted just above for what that could sound like...

Publius_Scipio · September 2016

I love the COVENANT and I love Wayrest. All I ask from the pact and dominion is to not litter or deface with graffiti.

But One Tamriel is actually necessary for ESO. Besides the first couple of major alliance cities, the cadwell silver and gold zones are a ghost town up until update.

Lava_Croft · September 2016

One Tamriel is another nail in the coffin of what ESO once was, a faction-based game with a heavy focus on AvAvA PvP. What we get in return is a game that's steadily moving into the direction of the Skyrim Online that ZOS wants it to be.

FireCowCommando · September 2016

Lava_Croft wrote: »

One Tamriel is another nail in the coffin of what ESO once was, a faction-based game with a heavy focus on AvAvA PvP. What we get in return is a game that's steadily moving into the direction of the Skyrim Online that ZOS wants it to be.

At this point theres no reason to stop this transition, the PvP community is largely full of new players and a few old hold outs. The new guys dont know what PvP used to be like, and as this thread shows theres more than one aspect of what the changes we have had, and will soon have, changes how ESO AvAvA is perceived.

CapuchinSeven · September 2016

k9mouse wrote: »

For me when I play silver and gold, I pretend that my char was made to the faction that I am doing quest in. On my EP char, when I was doing DC, I will pretend that my char was made in DC. Now I am in AD, and now my char is a AD one.

I wonder how One Tamriel will change the balance of players in PVP zones? Certain races are more popular than others, they more players will make those races now. Does that mean that other factions will get smaller in number of players in them?

The whole silver or gold parts of the game made no sense from a PVP players point of view, in fact PVP mostly just feels tact'd on story wise. In fact the game story goes out of its way to tell you the three factions fighting each other is not only a bad thing but WHAT Molag actually wants you to do.

The whole silver gold stuff never felt right and if they'd wanted you to play in different factions then PVP should have been better thought out.

I think in my head I just think the enemy are the Imperials or Molags forces, seems to make more sense that way.

CapuchinSeven · September 2016

Enodoc wrote: »

Update from the floors of PAX (direct from the stream, and second-hand via @Jeancey, who can correct me if I get any of this wrong):

Cadwell's explanation of "Meridia is hiding your true identity" is still the official explanation, as they haven't changed the story and this is still the explanation given by the story. Apparently @ZOS_RichLambert has seen the concerns that this explanation is not communicated to players who travel there via boat/wayshrine before Cadwell explains it to you, and is "considering it". I'm not sure if he was referencing this thread or something like it, but I also mentioned to Jeancey the idea of a Mysterious Light and apparently Rich called it an "interesting solution".

So there you have it. Cadwell's explanation is still canon, and they are considering an early explanation for those who travel to those areas before the story takes you there.

And it's still awful.

To be clear why, I'm DC, I'm Breton. I'm running around doing my thing and then I'm sent to AD and Pact where I "help" them. And by help them the game means, slaughter a huge number of my own faction and people.

It's disjointing, feels badly thought out and implemented.

Enodoc · September 2016

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Update from the floors of PAX (direct from the stream, and second-hand via @Jeancey, who can correct me if I get any of this wrong):

Cadwell's explanation of "Meridia is hiding your true identity" is still the official explanation, as they haven't changed the story and this is still the explanation given by the story. Apparently @ZOS_RichLambert has seen the concerns that this explanation is not communicated to players who travel there via boat/wayshrine before Cadwell explains it to you, and is "considering it". I'm not sure if he was referencing this thread or something like it, but I also mentioned to Jeancey the idea of a Mysterious Light and apparently Rich called it an "interesting solution".

So there you have it. Cadwell's explanation is still canon, and they are considering an early explanation for those who travel to those areas before the story takes you there.

And it's still awful.

To be clear why, I'm DC, I'm Breton. I'm running around doing my thing and then I'm sent to AD and Pact where I "help" them. And by help them the game means, slaughter a huge number of my own faction and people.

It's disjointing, feels badly thought out and implemented.

You help them because Meridia has made it so they see you as one of their own, so of course they will have you fighting their enemies. And if that doesn't float for you, remember that every member of your own faction that you're killing is following the orders of a rogue leader; Emeric would court-martial General Serien if he knew what he was doing in Stonefalls.

tinythinker · September 2016

Enodoc wrote: »

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Update from the floors of PAX (direct from the stream, and second-hand via @Jeancey, who can correct me if I get any of this wrong):

Cadwell's explanation of "Meridia is hiding your true identity" is still the official explanation, as they haven't changed the story and this is still the explanation given by the story. Apparently @ZOS_RichLambert has seen the concerns that this explanation is not communicated to players who travel there via boat/wayshrine before Cadwell explains it to you, and is "considering it". I'm not sure if he was referencing this thread or something like it, but I also mentioned to Jeancey the idea of a Mysterious Light and apparently Rich called it an "interesting solution".

So there you have it. Cadwell's explanation is still canon, and they are considering an early explanation for those who travel to those areas before the story takes you there.

And it's still awful.

To be clear why, I'm DC, I'm Breton. I'm running around doing my thing and then I'm sent to AD and Pact where I "help" them. And by help them the game means, slaughter a huge number of my own faction and people.

It's disjointing, feels badly thought out and implemented.

You help them because Meridia has made it so they see you as one of their own, so of course they will have you fighting their enemies. And if that doesn't float for you, remember that every member of your own faction that you're killing is following the orders of a rogue leader; Emeric would court-martial General Serien if he knew what he was doing in Stonefalls.

LORE EXPLANATION

Yeah, that's the lore explanation, and yes, Emeric would have not sanctioned the use of necromancy but he wouldn't have been opposed to the invasion, and even Gabrielle Benele was involved as I'm sure you recall. It was her idea to drive the goblins out of Hightide Hollow, for example:

General Serien,

I know you're going to face real challenges in Stonefalls. The Dark Elves are a proud people, and they won't give up without a fight.

That's why I've sent along copies of this treatise I wrote on non-standard magical military techniques! Hope you find it useful!

— Gabrielle Benele

Covenant Mages are trained in numerous magical and meta-magical techniques ideally suited for the battlefield. But not every battlefield features opposing troops arrayed in lines, keep walls to knock down, or cavalry to deflect. Some battlefields require a little creativity.

Every Covenant cohort is accompanied by an elite mage or two. When the circumstances call for it, why not let them make use of a few non-standard techniques?

Here's one recipe sure to throw a defending force for a loop:

— Seek out any local beast races or unwelcome nonsentients in the area.

— Have your mage infiltrate the lair of these lower life forms.

— Overrun the lair through any means necessary and drive out the unwelcome beasts.

— Maintain control of these lairs throughout the invasion, ensuring that the beast races do not return.

If the past is any judge, the beast races will move from their lairs towards local villages and towns, creating their own localized invasion upon enemy encampments.

My next missive will discuss uses for local alchemy goods in creating unique—and explosive—concotions.

Similarly, while Ayrenn may have not personally approved of Ruuvitar's experiments and plans to eradicate most of the Argonians, I doubt she was unaware of the planned incursion to undermine the unity of the Pact. And the Covenant forced in Auridon sent to retrieve a defector probably would have had Emeric's blessing. There is mention early on in the DC storyline of Pact raids along the coast, but the only raid we see from them is a small one in AD territory at the ruins of Quendeluun in Auridon, while some other Pact soldiers were part a small force in a delve underneath the city of Silvenar.

Again, it can still be viewed as seeing things from another perspective but some players (and honestly some characters) can reasonably find fighting former allies unappealing. Technically, Cadwell simply asks if you want to know what would have happened if you had ended up someplace else, not how these trips work. As per my suggested script for a new animated trailer for the new upcoming plot-line, the weave of possible worlds might be more flexible than mortals can comprehend, requiring only a slight of hand to hide things or even to take different threads and intertwine them (i.e. briefly getting to live out the "What if...?" universes in a way that everyone will remember you a little differently than the others). This is hinted at in the Greenshade storyline with the Spinners and the Wilderking and the Spinners plot with the Hound in Malabal Tor. So that can take some of the sting out of fighting former allies.

(The script mentioned is in the spoilers for convenient reference...)

Or at least the script/storyboard *I* would create for a promo of the upcoming multi-DLC spanning War of the Gods storyline...

Total darkness is broken by a flash, which reveals the image of The Hero, standing in a brightly lit portal. The image shifts from tall thin robed Breton to short Bosmer with a bow to a heavy armor clad Argonian to a dozen other shapes. The shifting form stretches, looks about, and slowly walks forward and is consumed by the darkness. [Goes with dialogue below]

Hero voiceover: Who are they? What is this vision you show me?
Azura voiceover: They fought alongside the Prophet and his companions to thwart the will of Molag Bal.
Hero voiceover: But I--
Azura voiceover: --cannot see as we do.

An animated battle scene shows The Hero fighting the Worm Cult in Tamriel and the forces of Molag Bal in Coldharbour. Unlike the last scene, one Hero is shown at a time, though the cuts in the action continue to switch from one Hero to another, even within the same fight.

Meridia voiceover: The Soul Burst ruptured the fabric of time, creating thousands of moments, any one of which Molag Bal could seize and forge into the future. In each of those moments a champion arose to defeat him.
Hero voiceover: Different moments?
Merdia voiceover: Yes. Each with the potential to solidify into the future all of Tamriel must face. Each mortal chosen sees the world as if they were the only one, and the world treats them as such, yet many of those you call ally, or foe, or have yet to meet, see the world the same way. You have all proven yourself, and those that survived are being called upon once more.
Hero voiceover: Why?

Images of warped and strange impossible landscapes and bizarre creatures from various planes of Oblivion. A shot of Coldharbour. A vista of Tamriel with bizzare dark crimson clouds forming and thickening overhead. A group of Heroes gathering one by one and assessing each other cautiously while keeping an eye on the menacing clouds above.

Azura voiceover: Because there are other threats to Nirn. There are those who see Molag Bal's defeat as an opening; who see the rise of mortal champions who can defeat a Daedric Prince as an opportunity. You must learn to see as we see, if you are to work together to stop the danger that approaches your world.
Hero voiceover: What's coming?

The previous image continues, but now the dark clouds swoop down and rush in over the assembled heroes and fill the screen, which fades to black.

Molag Bal voiceover: Your doom.

DEV EXPLANATION

As I understand it, some players in alpha or early beta testing thought there needed to be more content and some wanted to be able to see more of Tamriel, so, Cadwell's Silver and Gold was as an easy way to triple the PvE content for any one player and allow players to see more of the game world.

KenaPKK · September 2016

Complicating things in the name of immershunz.

The only significant difference between the factions in PvP is the people you play with or against. If you make a really good friend out in the world after OT goes live but can't PvP with them because they're from another faction, yea that would be disheartening. I have lots of friends on other factions, so I understand. I'm sure ZOS will provide a way to change faction or at least pick your faction upon first entering PvP eventually. They're softening up a lot lately.

tinythinker · September 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

Complicating things in the name of immershunz.

The only significant difference between the factions in PvP is the people you play with or against. If you make a really good friend out in the world after OT goes live but can't PvP with them because they're from another faction, yea that would be disheartening. I have lots of friends on other factions, so I understand. I'm sure ZOS will provide a way to change faction or at least pick your faction upon first entering PvP eventually. They're softening up a lot lately.

Lore people will talk lore, but from a "repair the story point of view" there are cheap, simple, easy fixes. No need for over-complicating things in-game.

I agree that ZOS is softening up on things, which is why I figured they might start that somewhat with Alliance War choices by delaying the players' decisions about who to fight for. It's kind of a middle-ground between making you stick with your choice at character creation and just letting people switch factions at will. The latter could cause of a lot of band-wagon population shifts. If you chose a one-time enlistment after playing several levels that effect is lessened.

Not sure why this got moved to the Alliance War forum just because the phrase in the title as it's about general game features that relate to the concept of the War and how people choose factions rather than issues concerning game-play in PvP zones, but, what's done is done.

Enodoc · September 2016

tinythinker wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Update from the floors of PAX (direct from the stream, and second-hand via @Jeancey, who can correct me if I get any of this wrong):

Cadwell's explanation of "Meridia is hiding your true identity" is still the official explanation, as they haven't changed the story and this is still the explanation given by the story. Apparently @ZOS_RichLambert has seen the concerns that this explanation is not communicated to players who travel there via boat/wayshrine before Cadwell explains it to you, and is "considering it". I'm not sure if he was referencing this thread or something like it, but I also mentioned to Jeancey the idea of a Mysterious Light and apparently Rich called it an "interesting solution".

So there you have it. Cadwell's explanation is still canon, and they are considering an early explanation for those who travel to those areas before the story takes you there.

And it's still awful.

To be clear why, I'm DC, I'm Breton. I'm running around doing my thing and then I'm sent to AD and Pact where I "help" them. And by help them the game means, slaughter a huge number of my own faction and people.

It's disjointing, feels badly thought out and implemented.

You help them because Meridia has made it so they see you as one of their own, so of course they will have you fighting their enemies. And if that doesn't float for you, remember that every member of your own faction that you're killing is following the orders of a rogue leader; Emeric would court-martial General Serien if he knew what he was doing in Stonefalls.

LORE EXPLANATION

Yeah, that's the lore explanation, and yes, Emeric would have not sanctioned the use of necromancy but he wouldn't have been opposed to the invasion, and even Gabrielle Benele was involved as I'm sure you recall. It was her idea to drive the goblins out of Hightide Hollow, for example:

General Serien,

I know you're going to face real challenges in Stonefalls. The Dark Elves are a proud people, and they won't give up without a fight.

That's why I've sent along copies of this treatise I wrote on non-standard magical military techniques! Hope you find it useful!

— Gabrielle Benele

Covenant Mages are trained in numerous magical and meta-magical techniques ideally suited for the battlefield. But not every battlefield features opposing troops arrayed in lines, keep walls to knock down, or cavalry to deflect. Some battlefields require a little creativity.

Every Covenant cohort is accompanied by an elite mage or two. When the circumstances call for it, why not let them make use of a few non-standard techniques?

Here's one recipe sure to throw a defending force for a loop:

— Seek out any local beast races or unwelcome nonsentients in the area.

— Have your mage infiltrate the lair of these lower life forms.

— Overrun the lair through any means necessary and drive out the unwelcome beasts.

— Maintain control of these lairs throughout the invasion, ensuring that the beast races do not return.

If the past is any judge, the beast races will move from their lairs towards local villages and towns, creating their own localized invasion upon enemy encampments.

My next missive will discuss uses for local alchemy goods in creating unique—and explosive—concotions.

Or was it?

"Oh, and I suppose you've never had a bad day? Try working for a bitchy Arch-Mage during an interplanar crisis. Then you might
"Ahem. Ah, the notorious 'lower life forms' letter of cruel advice to General Serien. I was confronted with this, to my surprise, on Eyevea by a Dark Elf member of the Guild. That letter is clearly some kind of Pact military intelligence disinformation intended to give Breton mages a bad name. Why, it doesn't even look like my handwriting!"

Agreed, though. None of the explanations quite work. You just have to follow Cadwell's explanation that you're identity is hidden and Meridia wants you to experience the story as seen by the other alliances. If you don't want to fight against your own alliance, even though for the purposes of the plot you are actually not a member of that alliance during those events, then don't do it. That's the benefit of Cadwell's being optional!