If you're doing vMA, Hunding will outperform TBS (and NMG will outperform Hunding). The main benefit to TBS in vMA is that you get the extra health, so you can run all-stamina attributes and all-stamina enchants, and so you don't have to bother with swapping gear when you go run trials. But TBS is not BiS for vMA--it's not bad for vMA per se, and I use TBS in vMA for the convenience and survivability. But it's not max damage if you're solo.

TBS really shines in group play with the help of a good War Horn rotation. You should not be running War Horn--it's the job of the tank or healer to use it, and if you use it, it's a boost to the DPS of other group members, but a loss of DPS for you. Which is why War Horn makes absolutely no sense outside of group play.

Figure I may as well ask since this is the maicka equivalent...

I have Julianos for my magicka sorc at the moment, would Twice Born Star be any better for VMA? Always figured they were close. Or is there something else I should be running?

2 kena
5 julianos
3 willpower

xblackroxe wrote: »

Mettaricana wrote: »

As much as I mull it over I just don't see it how tbs is chosen over hundings I can see 1k hp and mp benefit but losing the 299 wep dmg to only gain 18% wep crit dmg amd increased crit chance some how feels like dps wise I'd lose out can someone point out it trumps it? In maelstrom I been told constant to replace my hundings with it so yeah...?

The difference in TBS vs Hundings is that no matter how how good your group support is the 299 wd will always add a fixed amount of damage. The 18% crit damage on the other hand scale up with yoir dps increasing therefore are just a multiplier of your dps.
What that means is that the more support you have and the higher your dps is the better tbs will compare to hundings. I think the break even is at around 30k dps but don't take my word for this. It definitely is far lower than the max dps for stam users

I'm going to nitpick a little bit here. Hunding adds a flat value to your base stats. Crit adds a percentage value to your base stats. Stats, not DPS. Of course, stats directly affect DPS, but DPS is a combination of stats and rotation. The break-even point isn't some amount of DPS--the break even point is some amount of stat power (max stamina, weapon damage, etc.). The DPS that corresponds to this break-even point will vary from player to player depending on how good their rotation is.


The simplified version looks something like this:

Hunding: (Base Power + 299WD) * (Crit Chance + ~6.3%) * CHD
TBS: (Base Power) * (Crit Chance) * (CHD + ~18%)

The higher your innate Base Power (max stamina plus weapon damage) and Crit Chance, the more TBS is favored. Also, since War Horn affects CHD multiplicatively (and also boosts the max stamina portion of your Base Power), it shifts things in favor of TBS.

xblackroxe wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

Mettaricana wrote: »

As much as I mull it over I just don't see it how tbs is chosen over hundings I can see 1k hp and mp benefit but losing the 299 wep dmg to only gain 18% wep crit dmg amd increased crit chance some how feels like dps wise I'd lose out can someone point out it trumps it? In maelstrom I been told constant to replace my hundings with it so yeah...?

The difference in TBS vs Hundings is that no matter how how good your group support is the 299 wd will always add a fixed amount of damage. The 18% crit damage on the other hand scale up with yoir dps increasing therefore are just a multiplier of your dps.
What that means is that the more support you have and the higher your dps is the better tbs will compare to hundings. I think the break even is at around 30k dps but don't take my word for this. It definitely is far lower than the max dps for stam users

I'm going to nitpick a little bit here. Hunding adds a flat value to your base stats. Crit adds a percentage value to your base stats. Stats, not DPS. Of course, stats directly affect DPS, but DPS is a combination of stats and rotation. The break-even point isn't some amount of DPS--the break even point is some amount of stat power (max stamina, weapon damage, etc.). The DPS that corresponds to this break-even point will vary from player to player depending on how good their rotation is.


The simplified version looks something like this:

Hunding: (Base Power + 299WD) * (Crit Chance + ~6.3%) * CHD
TBS: (Base Power) * (Crit Chance) * (CHD + ~18%)

The higher your innate Base Power (max stamina plus weapon damage) and Crit Chance, the more TBS is favored. Also, since War Horn affects CHD multiplicatively (and also boosts the max stamina portion of your Base Power), it shifts things in favor of TBS.

So with all that you are saying the exact same as me. Hundings gives you a fixed amount of damage increase while TBS gives you a % on top of you damage.

Yes. Hence why I said "nitpick". We're in agreement--it's just that saying that the break-even point is some amount of DPS is not really correct--the break-even point is some amount of player stats, as player skill does not affect that point.

That said, with the base power as it is right now, you need War Horns to push TBS past Julianos/Hunding/Scathing, so TBS isn't best for purely solo play.

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

How? How do you incorporate all those sets into 1? What is the gear spread to that? Also, would you use that over Maelstrom DW and Maesltrom Bow?

2p Veli Armor
3x VO Jewelry
2x VO Armor
3x Hunding Armor
2x Hunding Daggers
1x Maelstrom Bow

This is the setup to use for stamblades and stamplars. First, because stamblades and stamplars should be using their class spammable (Surprise Attack, Biting Jabs) instead of Flurry, so they won't benefit from vMA weapons. Surprise Attack's debuff is also very nice in solo play.

Second, vMA DW weapons aren't that good in vMA because most things die before your DoTs can do much. Except on the boss fights, the target DoTs are largely wasted (though ground DoTs are still very useful, hence why you should be running a vMA bow).

Third, because you're not using Flurry, you won't have many chances to proc the axe bleed, which is why you should use dual daggers instead of dagger and axe.

This is purely for vMA, though, because vMA is solo and because vMA is mostly short burst with very little in the way of sustained DPS.

Jazbay_Grape wrote: »

I really don't mean this in a jerk way, I just really want to know if these are the types of convos that go on in groups for dungeons?? If so, that is why I've never bothered. I REALLY have zero interest in standing there while someone tells me that I need to switch Hundings because XX plus D equals Y to infinity. That's just not my thing.

Well to be fair, the information is being given because it was asked for. The people who tell you that type of thing without you requesting it are few and far between.

code65536 wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

How? How do you incorporate all those sets into 1? What is the gear spread to that? Also, would you use that over Maelstrom DW and Maesltrom Bow?

2p Veli Armor
3x VO Jewelry
2x VO Armor
3x Hunding Armor
2x Hunding Daggers
1x Maelstrom Bow

This is the setup to use for stamblades and stamplars. First, because stamblades and stamplars should be using their class spammable (Surprise Attack, Biting Jabs) instead of Flurry, so they won't benefit from vMA weapons. Surprise Attack's debuff is also very nice in solo play.

Second, vMA DW weapons aren't that good in vMA because most things die before your DoTs can do much. Except on the boss fights, the target DoTs are largely wasted (though ground DoTs are still very useful, hence why you should be running a vMA bow).

Third, because you're not using Flurry, you won't have many chances to proc the axe bleed, which is why you should use dual daggers instead of dagger and axe.

This is purely for vMA, though, because vMA is solo and because vMA is mostly short burst with very little in the way of sustained DPS.

What would be a good alternative for someone without VO?

I do have a Hunding set (in Impenetrable though..) and the Velidreth (in light-prosperous and heavy-sturdy LOL)... but without the 5 pieces VO, I bet the stamina management is going to be a pain!

ScottishTornado85 wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

How? How do you incorporate all those sets into 1? What is the gear spread to that? Also, would you use that over Maelstrom DW and Maesltrom Bow?

2p Veli Armor
3x VO Jewelry
2x VO Armor
3x Hunding Armor
2x Hunding Daggers
1x Maelstrom Bow

This is the setup to use for stamblades and stamplars. First, because stamblades and stamplars should be using their class spammable (Surprise Attack, Biting Jabs) instead of Flurry, so they won't benefit from vMA weapons. Surprise Attack's debuff is also very nice in solo play.

Second, vMA DW weapons aren't that good in vMA because most things die before your DoTs can do much. Except on the boss fights, the target DoTs are largely wasted (though ground DoTs are still very useful, hence why you should be running a vMA bow).

Third, because you're not using Flurry, you won't have many chances to proc the axe bleed, which is why you should use dual daggers instead of dagger and axe.

This is purely for vMA, though, because vMA is solo and because vMA is mostly short burst with very little in the way of sustained DPS.

That is very nicely summarised, thanks.

@sluice VO does make resource management a non issue, there are class abilities that can help you manage yours without it (siphoning strikes, repentance etc). I found the 5 Hundings with 4 NMG pretty comfortable when I started out.

Good to know..

I will probably roll something like this (if going 2H):

2x Velidreth
5x Hundings
3x Agility
Maelstrom weapons

or if going DW:

2x Velidreth
5x Viper
5x Hunding



I know that this setup will work fine with my Nightblade (Thanks to Siphoning Attacks), but might be a little bit more of an issue on my Stam sorc. (Dark Deal is not the kind of skill you should rely on mid-battle.

Zerok wrote: »

I made simulations a few weeks ago. TBS is not worth it. Yes you can get both Thief and Shadow mundus, but the Shadow mundus is actually overrated.

For a stamblade, I would choose NMG without hesitation because of the NB critical passive which helps proc the 5 pieces bonus. With the right build you can get 90% critical hit.

For other classes, the difference between NMG and Hunding is insignificant. However, in any group with at least 2 stamina DPS, you would want to have 1 DPS running NMG. The other ones should be running Hunding.

Nobody in engame content should be running Hundings over TBS.

sluice wrote: »

@Zerok, I would of thought that it would of been the other way around, considering that Stamblade main dps attack triggers Major Fracture.

The debuff from NMG stacks with the Major fracture debuff.

xblackroxe wrote: »

Zerok wrote: »

I made simulations a few weeks ago. TBS is not worth it. Yes you can get both Thief and Shadow mundus, but the Shadow mundus is actually overrated.

For a stamblade, I would choose NMG without hesitation because of the NB critical passive which helps proc the 5 pieces bonus. With the right build you can get 90% critical hit.

For other classes, the difference between NMG and Hunding is insignificant. However, in any group with at least 2 stamina DPS, you would want to have 1 DPS running NMG. The other ones should be running Hunding.

Nobody in engame content should be running Hundings over TBS.

For a trial-only build (with 100% major force uptime), TBS should produce slightly more DPS.

However, in solo or 4-group content, TBS is outperformed by NMG and Hunding.

Personally, I don't play a lot of trials. Making a gold TBS gear just for trials seems like a waste of money. But I guess some players can afford this.

Mettaricana wrote: »

As much as I mull it over I just don't see it how tbs is chosen over hundings I can see 1k hp and mp benefit but losing the 299 wep dmg to only gain 18% wep crit dmg amd increased crit chance some how feels like dps wise I'd lose out can someone point out it trumps it? In maelstrom I been told constant to replace my hundings with it so yeah...?

Actually Hunding do give +6% crit and Something along the line of 5% more dommage, which mean that overall that gear give you acces to 22% more crit (with thiefs) and 5% more dommage. Which mean that overall the gear help you achieve depending on you crit bonus which for most class would be along the line of 74% with this build (50% base +12% TB + 12% CP) a total of 1,22% more dommage over a regular build. this is without stamina bonus consideration as tbs has the same

On the other hand TBS is giving you 16% more crit + 18,3% more crit dommage, which mean that a dps would receive a 92% crit bonus. So alone this set does 1,14% dommage increase but ! The interesting factor is what you current gear is giving you atm and when you compare it in a general way.

Typical Stats of Stamina DPS using a 20 000 DPS as example

Base DPS : 20 000 DPS
Crit Ch.: 70%
Crit Bonus 74%

Note that bas DPS could be consider a test value, could be anything

Adaptation needed for Hunding

Base DPS: 20 000 * 1,05 = 21 000
Crit Ch.: 76%
Crit bonus 74%

Total with Adjustment = 32 810

Adaptation needed for TBS

Base DPS: 20 000
Crit Chance: 70%
Crit Bonus: 92%

Total with adjustment:32 880

Which mean TBS is a little bit superior BUT and that aspect is rather important TBS do support buff way better then Hundings, any bonus to crit chance gives you more, any bonus of raw dommage also (SPC or Combat prayer), and so fort so on as the crit multiplier is way better.

Hunding Crit mult = 1,56%
TBS Crit mult = 1,64%

Which mean overall any dommage buff you receive would be more efficient on a TBS build then on any other build you can run.That's why even if TBS is only a little bit superior to Hunding in term of solo efficiency because it only receive so much buff, the overall performance with any dommage increase (Penetration/Combat Prayer/Warhorn/SPC is always far more valuable.

As far as war-horn goes it's also because of the buff to stats that TBS becomes more interesting because as far as buff on Crit Hunding would remain better. As far as NMG the same thing is to be consider even if NMG gives more dommage bonus then Hunding Rage the set remain a little bit lower because of the crit multiplier.

EDIT : Also don't forget that Hunding's and NightMother don't beneficiate as much from being a Kajjit as TBS does (or even from using dual dagger if you do) since the crit multiplier will increase even more on any characther which does.

code65536 wrote: »

I'm going to nitpick a little bit here. Hunding adds a flat value to your base stats. Crit adds a percentage value to your base stats. Stats, not DPS. Of course, stats directly affect DPS, but DPS is a combination of stats and rotation. The break-even point isn't some amount of DPS--the break even point is some amount of stat power (max stamina, weapon damage, etc.). The DPS that corresponds to this break-even point will vary from player to player depending on how good their rotation is.


The simplified version looks something like this:

Hunding: (Base Power + 299WD) * (Crit Chance + ~6.3%) * CHD
TBS: (Base Power) * (Crit Chance) * (CHD + ~18%)

The higher your innate Base Power (max stamina plus weapon damage) and Crit Chance, the more TBS is favored. Also, since War Horn affects CHD multiplicatively (and also boosts the max stamina portion of your Base Power), it shifts things in favor of TBS.

My testing of them supports this statement, on my Bosmer DK without Warhorn or Combat Prayer the difference favor's Hundings by almost 2%, with Combat Prayer and Warhorn it is less than 1% in favor of Hundings and the projected data suggests that given an increase in stats TBS begins to out perform Hundings. From the data I gathered simply changing my race to Khajit would shift output in favor of TBS.

That said NMG is BIS provided no one else is running it.