Bottom line for me, if ZOS allowed a broken gear set, skill, etc.. in game, the players who are the consumer should not be perma banned for a company mistake.
kevlarto_ESO wrote: »I think they are still to easy on cheaters, every cheater I knew came right back after the three days of perma ban and started to cheat again, that's egg on ZOS's face, I think they need to be harsher on cheaters, run a third party a real perma ban, no second chances.
Well here I was just genuinely startled to discover that he isn't just an evil demon kitty.Having never seen a video of the OP I was genuinely startled to discover that he is avant saxophone player and composer John Zorn: (in this video the guy directing the musicians wearing the glasses, not the singer)
https://youtu.be/c4eO2o9u1j0?t=1790
Caius Drusus Imperial DK (DC) Bragg Ironhand Orc Temp (DC) Neesha Stalks-Shadows Argonian NB (EP) Falidir Altmer Sorcr (AD) J'zharka Khajiit NB (AD) |
Isabeau Runeseer Breton Sorc (DC) Fevassa Dunmer DK (EP) Manut Redguard Temp (AD) Tylera the Summoner Altmer Sorc (EP) Svari Snake-Blood Nord DK (AD) |
Ashlyn D'Elyse Breton NB (EP) Filindria Bosmer Temp (DC) Vigbjorn the Wanderer Nord Warden (EP) Hrokki Winterborn Breton Warden (DC) Basks-in-the-Sunshine Argonian Temp |
So... you're saying that if there is a bug/exploit that port me directly to last boss of vMA and i abuse it to get into leaderboards and get 30 super 1337 BiS prosperous 2h sword its ok? i shouldn't get any disciplinary action just beacause ZOS "allowed" it?.
KaleidoscopeEyz wrote: »So... you're saying that if there is a bug/exploit that port me directly to last boss of vMA and i abuse it to get into leaderboards and get 30 super 1337 BiS prosperous 2h sword its ok? i shouldn't get any disciplinary action just beacause ZOS "allowed" it?.
Um, yes. That's exactly how I feel. Don't punish people for putting out a broken product.
Lord_Dexter wrote: »So ZOS is banning immediately, Without any warnings?
Is there any official information page that explains what can get you banned? And what process are they following?
Lord_Dexter wrote: »So ZOS is banning immediately, Without any warnings?
Is there any official information page that explains what can get you banned? And what process are they following?
Ragnaroek93 wrote: »ZOS should ban for third party tools like Cheat Engine, I'm fine with that. But this "exploits" like jumping into keeps are in the game for months now, ZOS doesn't even think of fixing it and it often happens that someone jumps into a keep by accident (for example if you ambush someone who enters a door you will get into the keep. I see this happening every day and it happens to me too sometimes BY ACCIDENT).
A lot people don't even read the forum and don't even know that it is not allowed to jump into a keep. A good way to deal with exploiting is to programm the game well and to handle PvP exploits as high priority bugs and not as stuff that will maybe get fixed in 6 months like most PvP related bugs (by the way: is willows path still bugged? For how long were axebleeds buggy?). Maybe PvP bugs should get the same treatment and hotfixes like this freakin PvE bugs which affect the leaderboards and we would have much less discussions about what's allowed and what's not.
And please punish people who make too many false reports. Many good players get hate whispers and get called out for cheating because "uhhhh too much dmg... too much sustain... too tanky" or "gtfo macro scrub" while 99,9% of the time it's a l2p issue and the people just report for harassment. I'm in fear that many innocent people will get banned in this witch hunt because of idiots who seek for "blind revenge" (I really hate the attitude of banning cheaters by all means and don't give a *** about people who get banned because of false accusation). Just yesterday I had a conversation with one guy who insulted two of my mates for half an hour and told us that he and his whole raid will report us all for cheating lol. I've never heard that such toxic players got any punishment...
Sorry for my rant, I just think it's completely ridiculous that we play a game in our freetime which we paid for and actually have to worry about permabans because the developer is unable to fix his game. I mean OK, if someone uses cheat engine then permaban him, but don't permaban people for stuff that ZOS is responsible for (like jumping into keeps), don't ban people with automatic tools and don't ban people because they get many reports.
Bottom line for me, if ZOS allowed a broken gear set, skill, etc.. in game, the players who are the consumer should not be perma banned for a company mistake.
So... you're saying that if there is a bug/exploit that port me directly to last boss of vMA and i abuse it to get into leaderboards and get 30 super 1337 BiS prosperous 2h sword its ok? i shouldn't get any disciplinary action just beacause ZOS "allowed" it?.
I fail to see how having a publicly available record of people who have been caught and punished for breaking the rules is somehow childish and/or unprofessional. Does that make real life courts childish and unprofessional? We're not talking about publishing rumours about bad behavior - only cases where they've investigated and determined that a ban was warranted. It's the game equivalent of being convicted of a crime and getting a criminal record.UltimaJoe777 wrote: »HeroOfNone wrote: »UltimaJoe777 wrote: »HeroOfNone wrote: »Naming... If there's a video that shows a name, that's not a subjective story about events being told by memory. That's a video of the exact incident.
The example videos of what something looks like from multiple screens is a winning idea. There was a topic a week or so ago about a guy who got multi-gap closed from beyond the rendering distance. It was pointed out how a certain type of circumstances plus randomness can create what has been named a 'macroslice', and a fengrush video was linked showing it happening during his session. That vid was illuminating.
In that example in particular he could've accidentally done so.
Without seeing the bigger picture you might just get someone who made a mistake banned.
One video of one incident is not enough. If I accidentally gap-closed through a wall one time, having no idea that would happen...should I be publicly shamed for that?
ZOS has the data, let them play judge and jury, that's all I'm saying.
Thing Is that ZOS would have already played the judge & jury, and are letting you know the sentence. And your correct that ZOS would have the evidence that someone cheated, if it wasn't conclusive evidence I wouldn't expect to hear anything from them. Here is an example:
Player A is recording their game, standing in thier inner keep with the walls up. Suddenly player B uses crit rush to attack player A, kill them, and flip the keep. Player A reports them asking if this is a exploit. ZOS comes back saying "thank you for your report, we'll investigate this issue. We can't tell you the results of this investigation" and gives no response after. In the next few days, player C and Player D do similar things and Player A reports them each time, getting the same response. By the 3rd report, player A wonders if it's a legal tactic, because it seems everyone is doing it, and now they start using crit rush to bypass walls.
This could have gone different if ZOS came out and said "we'll investigate" and after several days came back and said "thank you for your report. Using gap closers to bypass walls is indeed an exploit. We will take appropriate action to handle this, please understand we do not discuss the penalties about other players. Thank you for your time."
This can't happen with the current system though. We never see this unless the incident is so major everyone know it.
In addition to this there are a lot of folks spreading misinformation about being perma banned for a first offense. I feel that ZOS should be upfront in saying "no, this was you 5th or 8th offense, it's time to go" and give us more information.KaleidoscopeEyz wrote: »ZOS "administrative actions" for using exploits has been a slap on the hand. Seriously, they banned people for like 2 days for the writ exploit. I'd gladly take a 2 day ban for unlimited ore and tons of tempering alloys. It's a joke.
If you want an exploit dealt with and resolved, make it public so everyone does it. They won't ban everyone and they'll fix the issue quicker.
That was the older ZOS, after the cheat engine debacle & gap closer exploits they seem to have a much harder stance. I don't like soft punishment, but a zero tolerance policy is the other extreme.UltimaJoe777 wrote: »Naming and Shaming isn't allowed because if it were it would make Zenimax look unprofessional. This honestly goes for any company really.
I disagree.
Several games like Team fortress 2, DOTA 2, and Counter Strike:GO show when players have prior VAC bans on thier accounts. This let's others know when something wierd is happening in game, they see the prior ban, and they can report the player to be investigated.
League of legends are very vocal about the people they ban and show that they are committed to make their games less toxic.
And more recently, and notably more popular and by a bigger "professional" company, Overwatch banned several thousand cheaters and even listed their accounts on forums.
So this isn't anything new, it's something that should be reviewed and possibly tweaked, if what I'm recommending makes sense.
Thanks for confirming why I don't care for LoL and Blizzard. That is not professional because it's basically a violation of user privacy. I mean really, would you consider a company that just hops on local media and says " hah hah we banned such and such because they cheated!" professional? No, I have no respect for companies like that, regardless of why those people were banned. It's flat out childish is what it is.
But it does break part of the argument that it's never done, correct? I'm also not looking to go on a crusade to out every cheater, exploiter, and toxic player we have either, but we should get some feedback "yeah, you were right, that was a exploit/cheat, thank you for bringing this to our attention" and leave it.
On the forums here I feel what we need is just summary information of what occured. "We had 29 folks cheating last night that were banned, thank you for the reports." No need to get into detail unless someone starts spreading misinformation around.
You make a valid point. Every professional company should follow protocol that doesn't make them look childish and I wanna believe EVERY company is professional but clearly that isn't the case. Zenimax basically did that last bit you said, and that tells us exactly what we needed to know without being unprofessional. LoL and Blizzard could learn from that apparently.
A player should not be responsible for broken sets and skills! It's appalling that people are being banned for something that ZOS put in the game!
A week ban or something like that I can understand, but permanent ban?! That's wrong
I'm all for a zero tolerance approach to cheating in any form. First offence a one week suspension (if it's temporary it's a suspension, not a ban), second offence a permanent ban. There's simply no excuse for cheating, none whatsoever. Arguing as some do that if a developer introduces a bug into a game then it's ok to exploit it is no different to excusing a burglary on the grounds that the victim left his door open.
I am, however, totally in favour of the naming and shaming policy, it's for ZOS to decide if someone is cheating, not the players who should merely report their suspicions privately. Allowing naming and shaming by players offers far too much scope for abuse.
KaleidoscopeEyz wrote: »I love the TOS angle. Like anyone reads that crap. That's just an "Accept" button we all immediately hit. Ain't nobody got time for that.
KaleidoscopeEyz wrote: »I love the TOS angle. Like anyone reads that crap. That's just an "Accept" button we all immediately hit. Ain't nobody got time for that.
That doesn't negate the fact that they exist
HeroOfNone wrote: »I'm all for a zero tolerance approach to cheating in any form. First offence a one week suspension (if it's temporary it's a suspension, not a ban), second offence a permanent ban. There's simply no excuse for cheating, none whatsoever. Arguing as some do that if a developer introduces a bug into a game then it's ok to exploit it is no different to excusing a burglary on the grounds that the victim left his door open.
I am, however, totally in favour of the naming and shaming policy, it's for ZOS to decide if someone is cheating, not the players who should merely report their suspicions privately. Allowing naming and shaming by players offers far too much scope for abuse.
Accusations for naming and shaming aren't up for debate here, but reporting back if a person was exploiting. Like you said, it's up to ZOS, nor a court of public opinion, to see if someone is guilty. Once someone has been caught however feedback back to the reporter should come back to let them know they got it right and not to repeat any kind of exploit.