Friendly reminder... DO NOT TURN IN UNDAUNTED KEYS !

Forestd16b14_ESO · August 2016

As the title says what ever you do do not turn in the undaunted keys the undaunted are pretty much at this point rigged to have a very very VERY high chance on giving shoulder pieces with prosperous or training trait. Like me today did gold and silver used both keys and 2 shoulder pieces and both had prosperous. Past 5 gold keys training or prosperous and I am not the only one friends are the same turn in keys prosperous or training and they horde their keys and open them like 10 at a time and the countless threads here on the forums too about undaunted chest and those traits.

Tin foil hat time I personally believe that the chest are rigged to give prosperous and training at a much higher rate than other pieces so that it forces PvE players to go farm AP in AvA and wait weeks at end for the golden to sell the piece they want. Same with PvP players they grind out for keys waste them all on junk then AP farm and wait weeks on end for the piece they want.

ZoS for the love of everything holy in this game remove prosperous and training not only from monster set shoulder but from all dropped gear period. If a player wants prosperous or training on their gear they will craft it. There's really no reason at all for those 2 traits to be on any set that drops so please ZoS remove prosperous and training from dropped gear players want them players will craft it.

leepalmer95 · August 2016

I'm saving mine for the 17 new monster sets.

altemriel · August 2016

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

As the title says what ever you do do not turn in the undaunted keys the undaunted are pretty much at this point rigged to have a very very VERY high chance on giving shoulder pieces with prosperous or training trait. Like me today did gold and silver used both keys and 2 shoulder pieces and both had prosperous. Past 5 gold keys training or prosperous and I am not the only one friends are the same turn in keys prosperous or training and they horde their keys and open them like 10 at a time and the countless threads here on the forums too about undaunted chest and those traits.

Tin foil hat time I personally believe that the chest are rigged to give prosperous and training at a much higher rate than other pieces so that it forces PvE players to go farm AP in AvA and wait weeks at end for the golden to sell the piece they want. Same with PvP players they grind out for keys waste them all on junk then AP farm and wait weeks on end for the piece they want.

ZoS for the love of everything holy in this game remove prosperous and training not only from monster set shoulder but from all dropped gear period. If a player wants prosperous or training on their gear they will craft it. There's really no reason at all for those 2 traits to be on any set that drops so please ZoS remove prosperous and training from dropped gear players want them players will craft it.

yes, or maybe ZOS, leave prosp and training in the chests and loots for low level characters, but remove them for vet level characters !!

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert

Rex-Umbra · August 2016

I have over 100 gold keys, I haven't had a reason to open one since last September when I got the Engine Guardian shoulder I wanted

Beardimus · August 2016

The thing is, I thought the drop rate of a shoulder went UP even those traits came in. So your actual rate of getting the shoulder you want is the same.

You just get ones you don't want and that's annoying, it hey at least you have something you can run.

Hey I might be wrong but that's how I had it explained to me

Waffennacht · August 2016

And the lesser traits do appear more often. It's not a conspiracy, it's something like if you get a piece 2 to1 the lesser traits. I can't remember the exact odds, but they desirable traits are less

Beardimus · August 2016

But my point is would you prefer no shoulders, or the shoulders with the wrong trait. At least it's a start. I might be wrong but I think the desirable traits have the same drop rate as always.

Mojmir · August 2016

I don't even run pledges, pointless at this time.

bebynnag · August 2016

dont forget the light reinforced shoulders which are oh so AMAZING!

Shad0wfire99 · August 2016

IMO, it's better (in most cases) to have a shoulder piece with an undesirable trait, than to not complete your monster set at all. I'll take a shoulder with sturdy for my stam-sorc if I already have a helm.

DocFrost72 · August 2016

puffytheslayer wrote: »

dont forget the light reinforced shoulders which are oh so AMAZING!

I would take light reinforced over my current heavy training Malu (PvE only, never brought that cheese into Cyro).

Arthmoor · August 2016

RNGesus must have been smiling on me then. Last week I bagged a shoulder piece with Divines on it and just need the matching helm. If only it wasn't such a huge pain to run CoH.....

AtmaDarkwolf · August 2016

its how its always been, just worse now.

Other traits had a 'weight' of 1, while prosperous and training always had 3-5x as much. (So if they were on a list a random selection program used, it would look like :

1 - Prosperous
2 - Prosperous
3 - Prosperous
4 - Prosperous
5 - Training
6 - Training
7 - Training
8 - Training
9 - Training
10 - Training
11 - Reinforced
12 - Sturdy
13 - Divines
14 - infused
15 - well-fitted

Impen was on list before, said empty spot was prob filled with prosper/training. Same with nirn, never on list, but that spot is prob populated with another.

And yes, I do suspect its exactly why you said so, the longer they can 'keep' is grinding the longer we play, the more they sell, etc.

I also feel that since they made the push to remove the crap traits from trails, they prob further watered down the undaunted lists (Even helms) I've not gotten more than 1 or 2 'reinforced' or other 'borderline' useful trait on any undaunted piece for weeks. And I do the pledges every night. At the very least (Just counting gold, since silver key has only about 50% chance to give shoulders) ive used 15+ keys, and my list pretty much looks lik the above (Except mind you, remove infused and divines...lol all the shoulders I got 5+ were training, 5+ were prosperous, and a couple reinforced, wellfitted and sturdy. One infused, No divines - And this 'pattern' has been going on for close to 3 months.)

alexkdd99 · August 2016

While I agree that prosperous and training should not be on monster sets or any end game gear. I don't think you thought out your solution.

How would anyone learn the traits to craft them if they do not drop on any gear. Any gear obtained through dungeons, pledges, trials and through pvp mail system should be exempt from being prosperous or training.

code65536 · August 2016

Hm. I came into this thread expecting you to say something about the new monster sets being added in Update 12.

Or the elimination of Bronze/Silver/Gold keys in Update 12 and their consolidation into a single key type (existing keys will be converted, but it remains to be seen how this conversion would work).

In any case, I've written about this on the PTS forum back when the new traits were added.

In short, you are actually better off under the new system (unless you wanted Impen). Yes, the pool was diluted by trash traits. But the shoulder drop rate was doubled for gold keys and increased by 4x-5x for silver keys. This means that you actually have a better chance of getting a shoulder you want, despite the trait pool dilution.

And for those who claim that Training and Prosperous drop more frequently than other traits, that's just bad luck. Or observational bias: you are more likely to notice and remember an insulting trait like Prosperous than you are a less offensive trait like Reinforced.

Here are the results of opening 178 keys (100 gold, 75 silver, 3 bronze) on the Update 10 PTS (DB):
17 Divines
19 Infused
22 Prosperous
19 Reinforced
23 Sturdy
20 Training
19 Well-Fitted

And here are the results of opening 405 keys (200 gold, 200 silver, 5 bronze) on the Update 11 PTS (SotH):
33 Divines
36 Infused
40 Prosperous
47 Reinforced
42 Sturdy
47 Training
46 Well-Fitted

As you can see, the numbers are actually quite even. Though Divines does seem slightly underrepresented, but that's likely just the result of luck.

Next week, when the Update 12 PTS drops, I'll go on another key-spending spree (probably 600 keys or 200 per chest) and post the results in the PTS forum.

Forestd16b14_ESO · August 2016

code65536 wrote: »

Hm. I came into this thread expecting you to say something about the new monster sets being added in Update 12.

Or the elimination of Bronze/Silver/Gold keys in Update 12 and their consolidation into a single key type (existing keys will be converted, but it remains to be seen how this conversion would work).

In any case, I've written about this on the PTS forum back when the new traits were added.

In short, you are actually better off under the new system (unless you wanted Impen). Yes, the pool was diluted by trash traits. But the shoulder drop rate was doubled for gold keys and increased by 4x-5x for silver keys. This means that you actually have a better chance of getting a shoulder you want, despite the trait pool dilution.

And for those who claim that Training and Prosperous drop more frequently than other traits, that's just bad luck. Or observational bias. You're more likely to notice and remember an insulting trait like Prosperous than you are a less offensive trait like Reinforced.

Here are the results of opening 178 keys (100 gold, 75 silver, 3 bronze) on the Update 10 PTS (DB):
17 Divines
19 Infused
22 Prosperous
19 Reinforced
22 Sturdy
20 Training
19 Well-Fitted

And here are the results of opening 405 keys (200 gold, 200 silver, 5 bronze) on the Update 11 PTS (SotH):
33 Divines
36 Infused
40 Prosperous
47 Reinforced
42 Sturdy
47 Training
46 Well-Fitted

As you can see, the numbers are actually quite even. Though Divines does seem slightly underrepresented, but that's likely just the result of luck.

Next week, when the Update 12 PTS drops, I'll go on another key-spending spree (probably 600 keys or 200 per chest) and post the results in the PTS forum.

No.... No odds just no... Prosperous and training need removed period. Doesn't matter that "it's fair and balanced" those garbage traits need removed from dropped gear.

And it's not bad luck me, friends, and countless others get nothing but those 2 garbage traits that is not bad luck it is a rigged RNG system.

Also what is the point of getting the shoulder piece you want if it has a garbage trait ? What good is prosperous in PvP ? Or Training on a CP cap account ? Nothing. RNG is rigger prosperous and training need removed from dropped gear simple as that. Yes we have a better chance getting the shoulder piece we want but again what good is it with out a good trait.

code65536 · August 2016

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Hm. I came into this thread expecting you to say something about the new monster sets being added in Update 12.

Or the elimination of Bronze/Silver/Gold keys in Update 12 and their consolidation into a single key type (existing keys will be converted, but it remains to be seen how this conversion would work).

In any case, I've written about this on the PTS forum back when the new traits were added.

In short, you are actually better off under the new system (unless you wanted Impen). Yes, the pool was diluted by trash traits. But the shoulder drop rate was doubled for gold keys and increased by 4x-5x for silver keys. This means that you actually have a better chance of getting a shoulder you want, despite the trait pool dilution.

And for those who claim that Training and Prosperous drop more frequently than other traits, that's just bad luck. Or observational bias. You're more likely to notice and remember an insulting trait like Prosperous than you are a less offensive trait like Reinforced.

Here are the results of opening 178 keys (100 gold, 75 silver, 3 bronze) on the Update 10 PTS (DB):
17 Divines
19 Infused
22 Prosperous
19 Reinforced
22 Sturdy
20 Training
19 Well-Fitted

And here are the results of opening 405 keys (200 gold, 200 silver, 5 bronze) on the Update 11 PTS (SotH):
33 Divines
36 Infused
40 Prosperous
47 Reinforced
42 Sturdy
47 Training
46 Well-Fitted

As you can see, the numbers are actually quite even. Though Divines does seem slightly underrepresented, but that's likely just the result of luck.

Next week, when the Update 12 PTS drops, I'll go on another key-spending spree (probably 600 keys or 200 per chest) and post the results in the PTS forum.

No.... No odds just no... Prosperous and training need removed period. Doesn't matter that "it's fair and balanced" those garbage traits need removed from dropped gear.

And it's not bad luck me, friends, and countless others get nothing but those 2 garbage traits that is not bad luck it is a rigged RNG system.

Also what is the point of getting the shoulder piece you want if it has a garbage trait ? What good is prosperous in PvP ? Or Training on a CP cap account ? Nothing. RNG is rigger prosperous and training need removed from dropped gear simple as that. Yes we have a better chance getting the shoulder piece we want but again what good is it with out a good trait.

I agree that Prosperous and Training should be removed.

But the objective fact is that you're still better off than before. Yes, things could be better with them removed. But it already is an improvement, despite the trash traits. Two steps forward, one step back.

You're forgetting that, before the trait revamp, you only had a 50% chance of getting a shoulder from a gold chest. And only a 10% chance from a silver chest. No matter how bad Prosperous and Training are, they are still better than getting nothing. At least now a bad luck streak is a few Prosperous/Training pieces in a row instead of coming up completely empty-handed several keys in a row.

And yes, it is just bad luck. Unless you post the numbers from opening 100+ chests, a few points of anecdotal evidence is insufficient grounds for a sweeping claim of "rigging".

Vipstaakki · August 2016

I am going to turn in an undaunted key and you can't stop me!

Lord_Eomer · August 2016

Even Helms are mostly dropping in Training, Prosperous and Well Fitted.

Forestd16b14_ESO · August 2016

code65536 wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Hm. I came into this thread expecting you to say something about the new monster sets being added in Update 12.

Or the elimination of Bronze/Silver/Gold keys in Update 12 and their consolidation into a single key type (existing keys will be converted, but it remains to be seen how this conversion would work).

In any case, I've written about this on the PTS forum back when the new traits were added.

In short, you are actually better off under the new system (unless you wanted Impen). Yes, the pool was diluted by trash traits. But the shoulder drop rate was doubled for gold keys and increased by 4x-5x for silver keys. This means that you actually have a better chance of getting a shoulder you want, despite the trait pool dilution.

And for those who claim that Training and Prosperous drop more frequently than other traits, that's just bad luck. Or observational bias. You're more likely to notice and remember an insulting trait like Prosperous than you are a less offensive trait like Reinforced.

Here are the results of opening 178 keys (100 gold, 75 silver, 3 bronze) on the Update 10 PTS (DB):
17 Divines
19 Infused
22 Prosperous
19 Reinforced
22 Sturdy
20 Training
19 Well-Fitted

And here are the results of opening 405 keys (200 gold, 200 silver, 5 bronze) on the Update 11 PTS (SotH):
33 Divines
36 Infused
40 Prosperous
47 Reinforced
42 Sturdy
47 Training
46 Well-Fitted

As you can see, the numbers are actually quite even. Though Divines does seem slightly underrepresented, but that's likely just the result of luck.

Next week, when the Update 12 PTS drops, I'll go on another key-spending spree (probably 600 keys or 200 per chest) and post the results in the PTS forum.

No.... No odds just no... Prosperous and training need removed period. Doesn't matter that "it's fair and balanced" those garbage traits need removed from dropped gear.

And it's not bad luck me, friends, and countless others get nothing but those 2 garbage traits that is not bad luck it is a rigged RNG system.

Also what is the point of getting the shoulder piece you want if it has a garbage trait ? What good is prosperous in PvP ? Or Training on a CP cap account ? Nothing. RNG is rigger prosperous and training need removed from dropped gear simple as that. Yes we have a better chance getting the shoulder piece we want but again what good is it with out a good trait.

I agree that Prosperous and Training should be removed.

But the objective fact is that you're still better off than before. Yes, things could be better with them removed. But it already is an improvement, despite the trash traits. Two steps forward, one step back.

You're forgetting that, before the trait revamp, you only had a 50% chance of getting a shoulder from a gold chest. And only a 10% chance from a silver chest. No matter how bad Prosperous and Training are, they are still better than getting nothing. At least now a bad luck streak is a few Prosperous/Training pieces in a row instead of coming up completely empty-handed several keys in a row.

And yes, it is just bad luck. Unless you post the numbers from opening 100+ chests, a few points of anecdotal evidence is insufficient grounds for a sweeping claim of "rigging".

And I am telling you yes you may get that 1 shoulder piece out of all of them but it won't be as good as you hoped for with out the trait you want. Some players spec builds around the traits they have. And again it's not bad luck it's rigged cause again it's just not me who only gets pros and train from chest it's 100s to 1000s of other players and pretty sure the amount of chests the common player opens up daily is at least some where in the 200s maybe 300s and most of the shoulders are train or pros.

The shoulder piece, armor set, and so on is only half of the build the other half is the trait on the gear and if that trait is garbage or does not fit with the build the entire build falls apart.

code65536 · August 2016

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Some players spec builds around the traits they have.

And I'm one of those min-maxers who runs 7p Divines on my characters. So what? A trash trait or even no trait is still better than not having anything. My first VO shoulder piece was Prosperous. My second VO shoulder piece was Training. And I used them both, because just having the full 5p VO set bonus is worth it. Of course, as I got better traits, I replaced them, until I finally got Divines. But trash traits meant that I got to use the set and enjoy the set bonuses, whereas if I had gotten nothing, then... well, I would've gotten nothing.

Also, one golden Divines piece, if you're running Thief, is worth about 0.8% crit chance. You're telling me that you'd rather go without that set at all, over 0.8% crit? Of course you'll want to replace it down the road, but if a set bonus is good enough, I'll take a bad trait so that I can start enjoying the set bonus over not having the set at all.

And let's not forget that before Update 10, the likelihood of coming up with nothing was much higher: 50% on gold, 90% on silver. Once you figure in all the chests that yielded stuff like an Ancestor Silk Sash of Stamina, your chances at getting the Divines piece that you want is higher now than it was before Update 10.

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

And again it's not bad luck it's rigged cause again it's just not me who only gets pros and train from chest it's 100s to 1000s of other players and pretty sure the amount of chests the common player opens up daily is at least some where in the 200s maybe 300s and most of the shoulders are train or pros.

No, that is still anecdotal evidence without numbers. Of course people will get Prosperous and Training pieces. And of course they'll get streaks of them now and then. And they're more likely to complain about 3 Prosperous/Training in a row than they are to complain about 3 Reinforced in a row because the former is a greater insult than the latter (and, for the record, I've been quite vocal about the uselessness of Prosperous as soon as it appeared on the DB PTS).

And that is all still anecdotal gut-feeling "evidence".

The reason I'm acting stubborn on this point is because I do have hard numbers. Out of 430 shoulders, I'd expect 61.4 of each trait if the distribution was even. I got 62 Prosperous and 67 Training. Numbers don't lie; if you want to convince me that it's rigged, give me an actual count.

Drungly · August 2016

Yes, let's save the keys so the chances of getting the item that you want are severely decreased by the time 17 new monster sets are added.

code65536 · August 2016

Drungly wrote: »

Yes, let's save the keys so the chances of getting the item that you want are severely decreased by the time 17 new monster sets are added.

The shoulders will be divided into three chests, with each chest dropping shoulders from a certain set of dungeons (they are eliminating the Bronze/Silver/Gold distinction). So you will only be dipping into the full pool when you use a key and can instead concentrate on the chest that can drop the shoulder that you want.

TheDarkoil · August 2016

Hold on! After about 100 keys I have only ever gotten shoulders, helms drop as well from them??????!!!!!!!!

code65536 · August 2016

TheDarkoil wrote: »

Hold on! After about 100 keys I have only ever gotten shoulders, helms drop as well from them??????!!!!!!!!

The chests only drop shoulder pieces. Dexter's post earlier was talking about helm drops in general.

alainjbrennanb16_ESO · August 2016

I have all monster sets i normal wait till new gear in chests, at mo across all characters i have 1k gold and 1k silver keys

code65536 · August 2016

alainjbrennanb16_ESO wrote: »

across all characters i have 1k gold and 1k silver keys

Oh wow!! I only have 1.1K keys, but that's silver and gold combined.

Beardimus · August 2016

I'm glad @code65536 has put some maths to it, as that's how I see it.

You guys complaining don't see the point. The rate for you to get the piece you want is actually BETTER than before. The difference is instead of getting no monster item, you get one with a differing trait.

So your requests to remove them would just mean going back to having nothing drop. At least now if you want to complete a set you can, and the effort rate to get perfect set is the same.

Unless you only want perfect sets to drop at the same current rate, which would be absurd as everyone would have perfect gear in no time.

Maybe I cant articulate the point well enough to explain it, but it's this weird sense of outraged entitlement everyone has as if they were short changed with he wrong trait! It's the wrong way to look at it, you should be happy you got a piece at all compared to nothing. But hey ***.

Dubhliam · August 2016

Did some testing on PTS before it changes.

Of course, this is not really representative, since I opened only 100 keys.
It would take 1000 keys or even more to have a more accurate statistic.
EDIT: the LA/MA/HA ratios are 33:31:36